Why URM's should NOT worry at the Supreme Courts' decision.

[pxz]

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Originally posted by pathdr2b
And Columbia med too? Booo Yah !!!!!!!!!!!

Of course an URM with 33 should get into Columbia. I am surprised that he did not get into Harvard/Yale etc. Schools are drooling over URMs with high scores.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by pxz
Of course an URM with 33 should get into Columbia. I am surprised that he did not get into Harvard/Yale etc. Schools are drooling over bright URMs.

So a black male that gets a 33 on the MCAT is bright. Does this mean that a white male that gets a 33 on the MCAT is just average? What about an Asian male with a 33 or perhaps a Latino male? What are they?

And is 33 the cutoff for brightness in black folks? If that's the case, then I'm in trouble !!! But then so is MOST of the entire SDN community

 

[alphabeta53]

affirmative action should start taking place at a younger age such as transporting youth from the inner city elementary schools to better schools. offering affirmative action at a later stage such as med school admissions lets weaker candidates in and take spots away from more qualified candidates at a time in their lives where its the quality of the physician that is important rather than what opportunities they had growing up.

Yes, I can say this better but I am busy reading about sosa corking his bat and don't feel like cleanig up my argument.

 

[pxz]

QUOTE]Originally posted by danwsu
It's funny that an URM gets lit up for using AA but when a son of a former public official gets into Yale with a 2.00 and sub standerd SAT scores it's all good. [/QUOTE]

First of all, Bush did score 1250 in SAT, which was prabably higher than those of most URMs in ivy league schools. C was his college GPA not his high school GPA.

Second, Bush got into Yale mainly because he was the son of an alumnus. He did not get accepted by harvard/stanford/... he was accepted by only two schools (Yale and U Texas). I think that is pretty much what most white/aisan applicants with a decent score end up, one state school and one school with family connection.

It is funny that people use Bush as the need of AA. Ok, let's say it is wrong for school to give preference to alumni's family members. It still doesn't justify using race as a factor in admission process. Kinda of like he robbed the bank and why can not I steal?

 

[pxz]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
So a black male that gets a 33 on the MCAT is bright. Does this mean that a white male that gets a 33 on the MCAT is just average? What about an Asian male with a 33 or perhaps a Latino male? What are they?

And is 33 the cutoff for brightness in black folks? If that's the case, then I'm in trouble !!! But then so is MOST of the entire SDN community

I have changed my post. 🙂

 

[Chronotropic]

Originally posted by pxz
Second, Bush got into Yale mainly because he was the son of an alumnus. He did not get accepted by harvard/stanford/... he was accepted by only two schools (Yale and U Texas). I think that is pretty much what most white/aisan applicants with a decent score end up, one state school and one school with family connection.

It is funny that people use Bush as the need of AA. Ok, let's say it is wrong for school to give preference to alumni's family members. It still doesn't justify using race as a factor in admission process. Kinda of like he robbed the bank and why can not I steal? [/B]

My point wasn't that legacy is the reason we need AA🙄 To use your own example, he robbed the bank and we all turned a blind eye. Then one someone else tried to it was time for a lethal injection. What happened to equal treatment?

 

[fun8stuff]

Originally posted by danwsu
How do you know that they don't? I would venture to say that there are just as many applicants who get in only because of their family and connections as there are people getting in "because" of AA.

It's funny that an URM gets lit up for using AA but when a son of a former public official gets into Yale with a 2.00 and sub standerd SAT scores it's all good.

lol... it's funny how this kind of logic is always used as a last resort in arguments: "but mom... tommy smokes crack... why can't I go sky diving?" First of all, the subject of this forum has to do with AA, not people getting into places because they know people. Second of all, I bet if a poll were to be taken just as many people (non-URMs) would disagree with the getting in through family and connections as there are non-URMs that disagree with AA.

You are comparing apples and oranges assuming that people will think in your favor.........

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by fun8stuff
First of all, the subject of this forum has to do with AA, not people getting into places because they know people.

Perhaps you don't read titles that well, but this thread has nothing to do with AA. The subject is why URM's should NOT worry about the supreme's court decision on AA. People against AA and/or those whose academic records weren't enought to get them into medical school and are looking for someone to blame, have turned this thread into an AA debate.

 

[LittleDrBob]

Originally posted by pxz
QUOTE]Originally posted by danwsu
It's funny that an URM gets lit up for using AA but when a son of a former public official gets into Yale with a 2.00 and sub standerd SAT scores it's all good.

First of all, Bush did score 1250 in SAT, which was prabably higher than those of most URMs in ivy league schools. C was his college GPA not his high school GPA.

Second, Bush got into Yale mainly because he was the son of an alumnus. He did not get accepted by harvard/stanford/... he was accepted by only two schools (Yale and U Texas). I think that is pretty much what most white/aisan applicants with a decent score end up, one state school and one school with family connection.

It is funny that people use Bush as the need of AA. Ok, let's say it is wrong for school to give preference to alumni's family members. It still doesn't justify using race as a factor in admission process. Kinda of like he robbed the bank and why can not I steal? [/QUOTE]

However, Bush did get into Harvard Business School with those low grades from Yale. It's interesting that his father was the director of the CIA at the time.

 

[TexasGuy41]

Well,

Thanks for your advice about connections, but I've tried it all. I just don't think they even look seriously at white applicants. I could be wrong, perhaps they just don't like my application for some reason.

Second, for whoever told me they couldn't believe I worked with underserved people and then went off about me being anti-ghetto or whatever. I never ever said that someone that grows up in the ghetto isn't disadvantaged. The public schools in the ghetto suck, many of the family structures that URMs grow up with are very difficult in terms of succeeding academically. For the 10th time, I"M ONLY TALKING ABOUT MED/GRAD SCHOOL ADMISSIONS. I'm one of the biggest AA supporters when it comes to everything but this. Because I honestly feel, once you both have college degrees, the URM no longer needs a boost up. Disagree with my point, but please don't classify me as some anti-AA idiot that thinks growing up in the ghetto isn't hard and horrible and unfair. I have no idea what the you URMs went through, but I give you props for making it this far. You've all succeeded already....now I ask you this, now that we both have college degrees, how come you have a better chance than I do?

And finally, I really really object to anyone painting me in the picture of a racist, or anti-URM type. That is so not the case its funny. And I'm not one of those people that works with the underserved but secretly harbors ill-will towards them. All I'm saying is let us both sit down, take the MCAT, take the prereqs, and let the best man win.

And for any URM out there that thinks they earned there way into med school, well you may have, but I challenge you to put down Caucasian or Asian on your AMCAS app and see what happens. You'll go from Duke accept to Drexel reject in no time.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by TexasGuy41
I could be wrong, perhaps they just don't like my application for some reason.

Have you EVER asked them why they didn't accept you or did you just get an "attitude" and assume it was because you were white?

 

[TexasGuy41]

I've sent countless emails/letters/phone calls to Dean Cannon, members of her staff, student affairs, etc. None of my letters have been rude and all of them have been extremely well written and tactful. At each time I ask for an appointment either in person or via telephone in order to discuss my application and how I might improve it. I have never heard back a single thing. They don't write me back, they don't return my phone calls, etc. I'm got very good social skills, and I'm well liked by all the doctors I work with. Everyone I talk to says that I'd be the perfect Howard applicant. But anyway, like I said, its over and done with. I'm not gonna whine about it, I'm taking my MCATs for the 3rd time and I"m doing a masters program. My whole point is that the avg URM never has to do a masters, or retake their MCATs after getting a 30 - BECAUSE THEY ARE ALREADY IN SCHOOLS.

Again - If you are black and I'm white, and we have the same stats, same ECs, same LORs, etc....YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE BY FAR OF BEING ACCEPTED. That is racism, and it hurts.

When a black guy gets stopped by police and hassled for no reason, that is racism and it digusts me just the same.

PathDr - please realize I have no beef with you, or any other URM with good stats. You have way higher MCATs than me and a better GPA. You deserve it.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by TexasGuy41
I've sent countless emails/letters/phone calls to Dean Cannon, members of her staff, student affairs, etc. None of my letters have been rude and all of them have been extremely well written and tactful. At each time I ask for an appointment either in person or via telephone in order to discuss my application and how I might improve it. I have never heard back a single thing.

Have you looked at th Howard 2007 thread on SDN? You're not the only applicant that's being ignored. And sending emails and calling IS NOT, IS NOT NETWORKING. For goodness sakes you WORK at Howard and can't make time for an impromptu visit to the office of admissions? This is completely senseless to me 😱 When I was at Chapel Hill I made IN PERSON visits to the people that mattered and I'm doing the same thing now !!!

Just like I said, you haven't done everything in your power to get into Howard.

 

[TexasGuy41]

Um,

I've "stopped by" the office many times. If you've ever been there, you know that they don't accept visitors and the women there are absolutely ridiculously rude.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by TexasGuy41
Um,

I've "stopped by" the office many times. If you've ever been there, you know that they don't accept visitors and the women there are absolutely ridiculously rude.

I've stopped by a few times myself, and yes they are rude. Are you going to give up that easy when a patient is rude? If I had given up evertime someone was rude to me going from undergraduate to graduate school, I would have dropped out a long time ago.

 

[TexasGuy41]

Well its been 2 years in terms of Howard, so yes, I'm giving up on them. But no, there is no way I'm giving up on med school, and I definitely don't think my spot in med school was "stolen" by a URM. The only thing standing between me and med school is my own drive and determination - and I'm not giving up any time soon.

I just think it should be that way for everyone, regardless of race. Nobody should get a leg up because of the color of their skin. It just doesn't seem fair to me. Yes, I can see both sides of the issue. I'm just as passionately pro-AA in terms of undergrad admissions, I just think the field is leveled once we both have college degrees.

 

[pxz]

Originally posted by LittleDrBob
First of all, Bush did score 1250 in SAT, which was prabably higher than those of most URMs in ivy league schools. C was his college GPA not his high school GPA.

Second, Bush got into Yale mainly because he was the son of an alumnus. He did not get accepted by harvard/stanford/... he was accepted by only two schools (Yale and U Texas). I think that is pretty much what most white/aisan applicants with a decent score end up, one state school and one school with family connection.

It is funny that people use Bush as the need of AA. Ok, let's say it is wrong for school to give preference to alumni's family members. It still doesn't justify using race as a factor in admission process. Kinda of like he robbed the bank and why can not I steal?

However, Bush did get into Harvard Business School with those low grades from Yale. It's interesting that his father was the director of the CIA at the time. [/B]

No, acutally, GWB did not tell his father that he was going to apply to HBS because he did not want it to be a big deal, typical texan style. When Bush Sr. expressed his disappointment at W during one of the family dinner, it was Jeb Bush who disclosed that W was already accepted to HBS. Bush also had served four years in Texas air guard before he applied to HBS. I am not so naive to think that his name did not help him. But that applys to every one, no matter you are Bush jr, Jesse Jackson jr, or Al Gore jr.

 

[MDin200?]

Originally posted by pxz
...I am not so naive to think that his name did not help him. But that applys to every one, no matter you are Bush jr, Jesse Jackson jr, or Al Gore jr.

Bush Jr., Jesse Jackson Jr., and Al Gore Jr. are not "everyone". Very few people have a legacy they can use to get into top schools

 

[pxz]

Originally posted by MDin200?
Bush Jr., Jesse Jackson Jr., and Al Gore Jr. are not "everyone". Very few people have a legacy they can use to get into top schools

Sorry my bad. What I mean is that it applied to every famous son. hehe

 

[BME103]

Originally posted by pxz
First of all, Bush did score 1250 in SAT [/B]

Correction: George W. Bush scored 566 on verbal and 640 on math (1206)

http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/from_search/0,10987,1101000207-38438,00.html

 

[fun8stuff]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Perhaps you don't read titles that well, but this thread has nothing to do with AA . The subject is why URM's should NOT worry about the supreme's court decision on AA. .

lol.... maybe you should try reading what you typed a little more slowly.... again, this is an example of an attempt to refute something when you have no idea what your talking about....

 

[wolferman]

Just an observation I've made that I'd like to share:

In my experiences at my two undergraduate institutions, the people that complained most about others getting "unfair" help in admissions via AA tended to be the ones who would have benefited most from some assistance themselves, i.e. they weren't that competitive. They were just bummed that the extra help that AA provides in URM admissions might have been just what they needed to get in. "If only I were black like you," they'd complain to me, "I would've gotten in." Instead, they'll be spending another year as a pre-med student instead of an M1. It didn't matter that these same folks wouldn't have gotten into medical school if they were pureblooded Vulcan; they just didn't have the stats and ECs. But whom do they blame? The URMs of course, for "stealing" their spots. The very spots that they might have gotten if AA didn't exist, right? Definitely....probably....maybe....ah, who cares, we gotta blame someone. It couldn't be their own fault for not studying for the MCAT or partying a little too much on weekends. In their eyes, URMs are modern-day pirates, raiding the country's admissions offices of acceptances that should've gone to ORMs instead.

Just my $0.02.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by wolferman
It couldn't be their own fault for not studying for the MCAT or partying a little too much on weekends. In their eyes, URMs are modern-day pirates, raiding the country's admissions offices of acceptances that should've gone to ORMs instead.

When I wasn't accepted to medical school the first time I applied, I blamed myself because my GPA was far below the average for matriculating students. I was hoping that my above average MCAT scores( And that's above average for ALL matriculation students in that year's class😉 ) would compensate but it didn't.

Bottom line, I got my grades up and was successful the next time many years later. I suggest as many others have treid to do, people look for what's wrong with their applications and fix it!

 

[fun8stuff]

Originally posted by wolferman
Just an observation I've made that I'd like to share:

In my experiences at my two undergraduate institutions, the people that complained most about others getting "unfair" help in admissions via AA tended to be the ones who would have benefited most from some assistance themselves, i.e. they weren't that competitive. They were just bummed that the extra help that AA provides in URM admissions might have been just what they needed to get in. "If only I were black like you," they'd complain to me, "I would've gotten in." Instead, they'll be spending another year as a pre-med student instead of an M1. It didn't matter that these same folks wouldn't have gotten into medical school if they were pureblooded Vulcan; they just didn't have the stats and ECs. But whom do they blame? The URMs of course, for "stealing" their spots. The very spots that they might have gotten if AA didn't exist, right? Definitely....probably....maybe....ah, who cares, we gotta blame someone. It couldn't be their own fault for not studying for the MCAT or partying a little too much on weekends. In their eyes, URMs are modern-day pirates, raiding the country's admissions offices of acceptances that should've gone to ORMs instead.

Just my $0.02.

This is probably true in some cases. I do not think I have ever noticed this, but it does sound logical. However, it is not true in all cases and definately not true in my case. A lot of times people don't like AA because they do good and work hard to get into med school, while a URM gives half the effort and does half as good and still gets in. While work my butt off to get in, some URMs do not have to work as hard to get accepted. I'm not saying this is true for all URMs, but it is for some.

I work my ass off to keep my 4 point from a top school for the second year in a row, I work hard as hell to get a low paying home-healthcare aide job, i work my ass off volunteering 4 hrs a week in ER, and i shadow docs 4 hrs a week, and not to mention I take 16 to 18 credits and TA during the spring and winter and work 40 to 55 hrs a week during the summer. I do this not only because I think it will help me get into med school, but beacuse i enjoy all of it.

What got me is that last semester a URM in our pre-med club who had no extracurrics besides the club, had a 3.4, and a 28 MCAT got accepted to our school's med program while another guy who was involved in lot more, had a 3.85, and a 31 MCAT got rejected from the same school. He did get other acceptances, but it was just upsetting to see that someone who was less qualified got picked over someone more qualified.

To think that I could be passed up for someone who did half as much work as me makes me sick. I think what Texas said a few posts up is a good idea: Once someone has a bachelors, why does AA still have to come into play? I can agree with and understand AA in other places, but not so much for grad or med school.

 

[fun8stuff]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
I thought this deserved some extra attention!!!!



Only 2% of medical students are black.

What percent of applicants are black?!.

without this knowledge your statement is meaningless...

 

[wolferman]

Because I enjoy data mining I thought I'd respond to the above post:

According to the AAMC website referenced below, in 2001 there were 2,887 black applicants out of 34,859 total applicants. Of the 16,365 total matriculants, 1,170 were black.

Percentage-wise, blacks made up 8.28% of the applicant pool but got 7.15% of the seats.

Contrast this with the 21,412 white applicants who secured 10,351 seats in the matriculating class. While white applicants make up 61.42% of the applicant pool, they get 63.25% of the seats.

I'll leave the interpretation to someone with a more flame-******ant suit that mine.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

The schools filled their diversity quota.
Remember, UM itself said that they would not admit over 20% for "diversity purposes". The part reserved for black URMs seem to be at 7-10%.

How else would you explain how an applicant pool of 20.9MCAT/3.15GPA pre-meds would be admitted at a similiar rate as an applicant pool of 28MCAT/3.52 pre-meds?

7 MCAT points. Jesus f-ing christ. Did that gap just grow bigger? Well, I guess lower standards lead to lower results.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
7 MCAT points. Jesus f-ing christ. Did that gap just grow bigger? Well, I guess lower standards lead to lower results.

And 4 years from now almost EVERYONE admitted will be a DOCTOR

 

[fun8stuff]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
And 4 years from now almost EVERYONE admitted will be a DOCTOR

Scary isn't it? Hopefully we can avoid those doc's who are admitted with substandard qualifications!

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by fun8stuff
Scary isn't it? Hopefully we can avoid those doc's who are admitted with substandard qualifications!

Why don't you make a deal right here, right now. Find a way to place notification with your personal identification to NOT be medically assisted by a URM physician ( I include all of them to make sure you don't get the ones that had "substandard" qualifications). Then place that same request in the wallets of your mother, father, girlfriend/boyfriend, and your entire family and friends.

Sound stupid? Apparently not since I'm sure you'd rather be dead that receive "substandard" medical care. May you and others like you that don't want 'substandard" medical care one day soon "rot in peace" due to your own ignorance.

 

[vixenell]

Scary isn't it? Hopefully we can avoid those doc's who are admitted with substandard qualifications!

Judging by the subject of this thread, I'm assuming you're referring to URM doctors admitted with lower scores. what about all those ORMs who are admitted with "substandard" qualifications? To make a statement like yours means that you will be equally wary of ALL doctors, not just the ones who are most readily considered to be underqualified. Unfortunately, undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores mean nothing in the real world. Unless, of course, you suggest mandating these numbers to be prominently displayed on all physician uniforms. Sound ridiculus?

When I'm looking for a doctor, I could care less whether he passed intro physics, or got a 100% in organic chem. It doesn't matter whether or not he got a near-perfect score on the MCAT. I'm more concerned with how other patients percieve them, how well they work in the medical setting, how passionate they seem to be about medicine. If s/he's passed med school AND successfully completed a residency AND has made a name for him/herself within the medical profession, then s/he's OK in my book.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by fun8stuff
Scary isn't it? Hopefully we can avoid those doc's who are admitted with substandard qualifications!

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Why don't you make a deal right here, right now. Find a way to place notification with your personal identification to NOT be medically assisted by a URM physician ( I include all of them to make sure you don't get the ones that had "substandard" qualifications). Then place that same request in the wallets of your mother, father, girlfriend/boyfriend, and your entire family and friends.

Sound stupid? Apparently not since I'm sure you'd rather be dead that receive "substandard" medical care. May you and others like you that don't want 'substandard" medical care one day soon "rot in peace" due to your own ignorance.

Bump

 

[fun8stuff]

vixenell , i was just sarcastically replying to pathdr2b's sarcastic post...

i am aware that MCAT scores, grades, extracurrics, personal recommendations do not necessarily reflect how good of a doctor you will be, but i think they have something to do with it, and apparantly i'm not alone either. i do not think they would be qualifications looked at by med schools if they had nothing to do with how good of a doctor you could become. So, yes, I must believe that a larger percentage of ALL doctors who are let in with substandard qualifications will turn out to be "quacks" than those who are let in with top qualifications.

Just a note, it has been proven that a good score on the MCAT and high GPA correlate with how well someoone will do in med school. Obviously the better someone does in med school the more likely they will be an excellent doctor and vice-versa.

There is no need for doctors to post their pre-med and med qualifications, although I would definately take an interest to them (clincical especially) and their boards. Pre-med scores would not be needed, but it has been shown that pre-med scores correlate with med grades most of the time.

"I'm more concerned with how other patients percieve them, how well they work in the medical setting, how passionate they seem to be about medicine. If s/he's passed med school AND successfully completed a residency AND has made a name for him/herself within the medical profession, then s/he's OK in my book."
I'm concernewith this stuff as well, but these things have showed to correlate to how well someone does in medical school. Of course there are always exceptions...

I'm sorry this is so upsetting to you pathdr2b that you must post with such anger, but perhaps your anger stems from the fact that you know in some way this belief (which i share with many people) is not all untrue. I am really afraid for your anger toward people of different beliefs, mostly because doctors must be open to diversity. Good luck to you.

The point I was trying to make with my original statement is that a lot of people have similar thoughts. There are people who avoid certain doctors because of thinking that they were only admitted because of their race, and in turn AA promotes racism in this very way. I even just read a post by a URM in medical school who believes this and has seen this to be true. Read the dateline thread!

I see where you are coming from when saying that a (premed and med) students qualifications won't determine how well of a doctor they will be, and I can partially agree with it, but not fully. I believe that a students qualifications, do have a significant effect on how good of a doctor they will be.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by fun8stuff
I'm sorry this is so upsetting to you pathdr2b that you must post with such anger, but perhaps your anger stems from the fact that you know in some way this belief (which i share with many people) is not all untrue. I am really afraid for your anger toward people of different beliefs, mostly because doctors must be open to diversity. Good luck to you.

\

I'm not angry I just like to cut through the crap. If your beliefs are that strong then I say put your life where your mouth is. I have no problem with people having different beliefs as there are many threads on SDN right now that I'm just to dignified to respond to. But if you truly believe that anyone accepted into medical school with the help of AA is a substandard doctor, then you should live by your beliefs and refuse medical treatment. I live by mine and as a christian I don't need "good luck" because I'm BLESSED.

 

[fun8stuff]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
\

I'm not angry I just like to cut through the crap. If your beliefs are that strong then I say put your life where your mouth is. I have no problem with people having different beliefs as there are many threads on SDN right now that I'm just to dignified to respond to. But if you truly believe that anyone accepted into medical school with the help of AA is a substandard doctor, then you should live by your beliefs and refuse medical treatment. I live by mine and as a christian I don't need "good luck" because I'm BLESSED.

I do not believe that all people that get in with the help of AA are going to be a substandard doctors, there are some damn smart and gifted URMs that get in. I think that a higher percentage of those that do will be more likely to be "quacks", and I think that there needs to be a better program put in place of AA. However, I don't have any real suggestions.

 

[wolferman]

Originally posted by fun8stuff
I think that there needs to be a better program put in place of AA. However, I don't have any real suggestions.

So in the meantime, you'd like to see a program that is helping some, albeit not in the most efficient or fair way, be taken away. Good suggestion. 🙄

Why don't we get rid of all programs that don't work perfectly or fairly regardless of whether or not we have a replacement? Say goodbye to Medicare, Medicaid, school vouchers, children immunization programs, tax credits, food stamps, and law enforcement for starters. Even a flawed program like AA is better than the lack of such a program, just as living with an imperfect Medicare is better than not having it.

 

[Rudy1223]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
\

I'm not angry I just like to cut through the crap. If your beliefs are that strong then I say put your life where your mouth is. I have no problem with people having different beliefs as there are many threads on SDN right now that I'm just to dignified to respond to. But if you truly believe that anyone accepted into medical school with the help of AA is a substandard doctor, then you should live by your beliefs and refuse medical treatment. I live by mine and as a christian I don't need "good luck" because I'm BLESSED.

path,

I know we had our differences on the past, but I'm totally with you on your previous posts. Somtimes people just like to blab and blab, thanks for clearing up the truth for us.🙂

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Rudy1223
path,

I know we had our differences on the past, but I'm totally with you on your previous posts. Somtimes people just like to blab and blab, thanks for clearing up the truth for us.🙂

Np problem Rudy. I think there were good points made by almost everyone in this thread and is probably one of the best debates on AA (although AA was NOT suppose to be the focus in my eyes) on SDN.