Will Physician Salaries continue to go down?

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I agree with this. However, med schools don't encourage this type of thinking. They want students who will sacrifice anything and everything for medicine. They want the person who will do missionary work in Africa for practically nothing. Students don't appreciate how medicine is under assault until they're off practicing in the real world.

That's another problem. Med schools drill the idea that it is a privilege that you busted your ass in college, pay 40k/year, and spend 90+hrs a week in residency for a few years so you can become a doctor. Anyone who had gone through all of this training and debt deserves decent compensation and should tell all the people that you shouldn't expect decent pay since medicine is about caring and compassion to STFU.

I think another problem with MD's is that they don't have the power or the numbers. Insurance companies and lawyers (since most politicians were lawyers and support one another) have power. The general population has the numbers as it believes doctors are all insanely rich and everyone should get free health care.
 
Isn't the threat of PA encroachment different/less than the threat of NPs?
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I know that many if not most of you will disagree with me (and I feel it is because almost none of you have run even one of your own businesses), but..... competition in business is never bad. That is why Lowes seeks out locations where a Home Depot is established to set up their new stores. Using the fear oriented state of mind, Lowes would try to be as far away from a Home Depot to reduce competition - Lowes would think of how much population per store they would have....but they don't - they purposely set their new stores up as close as possible to an existing Home Depot. I know many of you don't get that....and never will .... I don't think MD's as individuals have ever "gotten" business - that is why most prefer being employed versus self employed. That is why most need or want managers, marketers etc.

Competition is never bad, if you know how to compete. Any MD that loses a competition for patients to a NP, PA, DO, DC or another MD just simply does not understand the dynamics that drive their business - what brings clients in and gets clients to pay.

When I was doing general surgery, one month I rotated with a surgeon that did alot...ALOT of breast reconstruction after cancer. The patient was midway through the process, recieving brachytherapy. They had changed insurances and their co-pay went up because the surgeon was not one of the approved surgeons on the new insurance - but was out of network. Considering how many visits they had left, it probably would have left them with about $700 out of pocket. They politely told the surgeon that they would have to pick a new provider who was preferred because of the higher co-pay. The surgeon said they understood and the patient left, not rescheduling again. Previously when talking to the patient on another visit I noticed that they were getting their teeth whitened by a dentist - and this was costing over a grand. I wish I had not said it, but I could not help but say :Wow, you are treating that ladies cancer and she does not find it worth $700, she dumped you for $700 bucks when she gladly spends more than that out of pocket to have her teeth whitened. She values what the dentist does for her teeth than what you do for her cancer. I know that dentist has no problems charging a grand to simply whiten her teeth, but this MD - surgeon with reconstructive training, having done years of residency, spending 18 hour shifts standing and doing surgery, could not explain why it was worth it for the patient to spend $700 with them. The MD surgeon did not have enough FCB (Faith confidence and belief) in their own services and product, to at least suggest the patient pay the money. They rolled over and played dead.

That is why MD's could not survive without insurance - if ALL insurance was eliminated, the medical profession would be the first casualty. Massage therapists, chiropractors, acupuncturists, dentists would hardly be affected. Without ANY insurance, MD's would be a thing of the past. Adios good bye. Insurance is the only reason medicine still survives as a profession.

I think most MD's relate to money out of fear. Patients spend $2000 for a refrigerator, but most won't spend that on their medical doctor. They do not have insurance that pays for the fridge, they pay for it out of pocket. But how many MD's can expect a patient to pay with real money instead of insurance - not many. It has nothing to do with the value of the service - people make more trips to alternative care providers and spend much more on alternative medicine than they do with traditional medicine (http://www.whsc.emory.edu/_pubs/em/1996fall/alternative_medicine.html see note below **). Massage therapists doing "neuromuscular therapy (requires no special training) charge in excess of $150 per hour (with almost no overhead). They certainly do not expect people to use insurance, even though they may get 10 treatments.

Again, I know most of you will have many things to say in disagreement, or give reasons why MDs have to take insurance, or why its the patients fault because the patients expect you to accept what insurance pays, etc. All I can say is that its in your head and not elsewhere.

My favorite is when I would watch one of the doctors who was my internal medicine preceptor...over and over... interview the patient, decide silently in their own mind that the patient would do best with X treatment or X drug...then check their insurance benefits, and realizing their insurance would not pay for it recommend Y treatment or Y drug instead, because while inferior at least their insurance covered it. They never even recommended X drug/or treatment, they just simply recommended the inferior Y drug/treatment - not wanting to have any sort of money confrontation. If they ever had the guts to say something like "You know I recommend X treatment, its better - but it will cost you money...however your insurance will pay for Y, which is not as good but at least its free" - he would have been surprised that many would choose X even if it cost them. I know some MD's do not have such money issues, but most I have seen do - they give away the shop because they cannot ask for money.

This problem extends beyond money. It extends to all facets of health care (and life in general) - competition is a problem if you are weak. That is all.



** The "wake-up call," as Dr. Gooding puts it, came in 1993 when the New England Journal of Medicine published a survey of 1,539 adults who were questioned about their use of unconventional therapies. The results? Based on participant responses, Americans in 1990 made about 425 million visits to alternative practitioners compared with 388 million visits to primary care physicians. While around 3% were looking for help with life-threatening conditions like cancer or AIDS, the vast majority were seeking remedies for long-term problems like obesity, chronic pain, anxiety, and depression. Tellingly, 72% declined to tell their medical doctors about these visits
 
While physician salaries may be higher than they were 25 years ago, so are expenses. Frankly, the minimum wage is 57% higher today than it was in 1983. Surgeon salaries for example have fallen 7% when adjusted for inflation (ie, compared to how everyone else's salaries have risen).

The wages in these statistics are pre-tax, post-expense. They are also inflation adjusted. Surgeon's salaries have increased.
 
I know that many if not most of you will disagree with me (and I feel it is because almost none of you have run even one of your own businesses), but..... competition in business is never bad. That is why Lowes seeks out locations where a Home Depot is established to set up their new stores. Using the fear oriented state of mind, Lowes would try to be as far away from a Home Depot to reduce competition - Lowes would think of how much population per store they would have....but they don't - they purposely set their new stores up as close as possible to an existing Home Depot. I know many of you don't get that....and never will .... I don't think MD's as individuals have ever "gotten" business - that is why most prefer being employed versus self employed. That is why most need or want managers, marketers etc.

Competition is never bad, if you know how to compete. Any MD that loses a competition for patients to a NP, PA, DO, DC or another MD just simply does not understand the dynamics that drive their business - what brings clients in and gets clients to pay.

When I was doing general surgery, one month I rotated with a surgeon that did alot...ALOT of breast reconstruction after cancer. The patient was midway through the process, recieving brachytherapy. They had changed insurances and their co-pay went up because the surgeon was not one of the approved surgeons on the new insurance - but was out of network. Considering how many visits they had left, it probably would have left them with about $700 out of pocket. They politely told the surgeon that they would have to pick a new provider who was preferred because of the higher co-pay. The surgeon said they understood and the patient left, not rescheduling again. Previously when talking to the patient on another visit I noticed that they were getting their teeth whitened by a dentist - and this was costing over a grand. I wish I had not said it, but I could not help but say :Wow, you are treating that ladies cancer and she does not find it worth $700, she dumped you for $700 bucks when she gladly spends more than that out of pocket to have her teeth whitened. She values what the dentist does for her teeth than what you do for her cancer. I know that dentist has no problems charging a grand to simply whiten her teeth, but this MD - surgeon with reconstructive training, having done years of residency, spending 18 hour shifts standing and doing surgery, could not explain why it was worth it for the patient to spend $700 with them. The MD surgeon did not have enough FCB (Faith confidence and belief) in their own services and product, to at least suggest the patient pay the money. They rolled over and played dead.

That is why MD's could not survive without insurance - if ALL insurance was eliminated, the medical profession would be the first casualty. Massage therapists, chiropractors, acupuncturists, dentists would hardly be affected. Without ANY insurance, MD's would be a thing of the past. Adios good bye. Insurance is the only reason medicine still survives as a profession.

I think most MD's relate to money out of fear. Patients spend $2000 for a refrigerator, but most won't spend that on their medical doctor. They do not have insurance that pays for the fridge, they pay for it out of pocket. But how many MD's can expect a patient to pay with real money instead of insurance - not many. It has nothing to do with the value of the service - people make more trips to alternative care providers and spend much more on alternative medicine than they do with traditional medicine (http://www.whsc.emory.edu/_pubs/em/1996fall/alternative_medicine.html see note below **). Massage therapists doing "neuromuscular therapy (requires no special training) charge in excess of $150 per hour (with almost no overhead). They certainly do not expect people to use insurance, even though they may get 10 treatments.

Again, I know most of you will have many things to say in disagreement, or give reasons why MDs have to take insurance, or why its the patients fault because the patients expect you to accept what insurance pays, etc. All I can say is that its in your head and not elsewhere.

My favorite is when I would watch one of the doctors who was my internal medicine preceptor...over and over... interview the patient, decide silently in their own mind that the patient would do best with X treatment or X drug...then check their insurance benefits, and realizing their insurance would not pay for it recommend Y treatment or Y drug instead, because while inferior at least their insurance covered it. They never even recommended X drug/or treatment, they just simply recommended the inferior Y drug/treatment - not wanting to have any sort of money confrontation. If they ever had the guts to say something like "You know I recommend X treatment, its better - but it will cost you money...however your insurance will pay for Y, which is not as good but at least its free" - he would have been surprised that many would choose X even if it cost them. I know some MD's do not have such money issues, but most I have seen do - they give away the shop because they cannot ask for money.

This problem extends beyond money. It extends to all facets of health care (and life in general) - competition is a problem if you are weak. That is all.



** The "wake-up call," as Dr. Gooding puts it, came in 1993 when the New England Journal of Medicine published a survey of 1,539 adults who were questioned about their use of unconventional therapies. The results? Based on participant responses, Americans in 1990 made about 425 million visits to alternative practitioners compared with 388 million visits to primary care physicians. While around 3% were looking for help with life-threatening conditions like cancer or AIDS, the vast majority were seeking remedies for long-term problems like obesity, chronic pain, anxiety, and depression. Tellingly, 72% declined to tell their medical doctors about these visits


well said
 
The wages in these statistics are pre-tax, post-expense. They are also inflation adjusted. Surgeon's salaries have increased.

Sorry, anyone will tell you they have decreased. All specialty salaries have decreased, general surgeons more than anyone.

See this post by Law2Doc in another thread in this forum and read the article referenced:

Law2Doc said:
As I pointed out to you on another thread, here is a NY Times article citing a study of the decline of physician salaries over the latter 8 years of your data. In the article the Chairman of the AMA seems to be agreeing the trend is down, not up. So your data may be skewing things by starting a decade too early. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/22/b...gin&adxnnlx=1196542865-DDQ7laJbXmKGjh4Qv7kkXA
 
I know that many if not most of you will disagree with me (and I feel it is because almost none of you have run even one of your own businesses), but..... competition in business is never bad.

I totally agree. If NP's, PA's, DNP's, etc want to practice medicine, then that's fine. If they do as good a job as us MD's and charge less, that's life. If we offer a better service, then they won''t put us out of business. This might change the way medicine is practiced, or it might not.

Wow, you are treating that ladies cancer and she does not find it worth $700, she dumped you for $700 bucks when she gladly spends more than that out of pocket to have her teeth whitened. She values what the dentist does for her teeth than what you do for her cancer. I know that dentist has no problems charging a grand to simply whiten her teeth, but this MD - surgeon with reconstructive training, having done years of residency, spending 18 hour shifts standing and doing surgery, could not explain why it was worth it for the patient to spend $700 with them. The MD surgeon did not have enough FCB (Faith confidence and belief) in their own services and product, to at least suggest the patient pay the money. They rolled over and played dead.

I think this oversimplifies the situation a bit. Patient's expect to pay minimally for their health care -- as you mention. They have no prob dropping $2000 on a new flat screen TV, but would never consider paying that for a health problem. This whole problem is created by insurance, of course.

The problem with your analogy is that this woman could pay $700 to see this surgeon, or switch to someone else who might be just as good and pay much less. If I were having my teeth whitened and some dentist advertised the same procedure for half the cost, I might switch mid stream also. Why pay more for a service that you can get for less money, if it's as good?

And there is the rub. In business, the primary plan is to advertise / promote your service as the best. Starbucks tastes better, Jenny Craig makes you lose more weight, it's all about branding. As physicians we in general do not do this, probably for a bunch of reasons:

1. It's not the "medical way". medicine has a long history of altruism.

2. There's almost always more patients to see. Someone leaves, and a new patient fills the slot. All slots are filled. Hence, there's no business incentive to develop long term customers.

3. Most importantly, you can't charge more for higher quality. This is a huge business problem. Volvo has made it's business plan = safety. You pay ridiculous amounts of money for a Volvo because you think they are safer. Are they? I have no idea. But man, Volvo's done a great job of trying to convince me of that, and when you have a young kid you start to think that "maybe it's worth all that money..." In medicine, you can't charge more for your services (in general), so there's no incentive to offer better "customer service".

We agree that insurance is the problem. It's just unclear how to solve it -- change to a single payer system (which will likely result in somewhat adequate but less than stellar care for all) or open up a true free market (which will likely generate stellar care for some, and lousy/no care for some), or some hybrid model which will combine the problems of both systems.
 
Sorry, anyone will tell you they have decreased. All specialty salaries have decreased, general surgeons more than anyone.

Can someone/anyone show me any data on this? Like average salary ten years ago versus today?

Everyone says they are going down, but noone has any verifyable numbers. Do people just go into medicine expecting to be swimming in gold and have their hopes dashed?
 
Can someone/anyone show me any data on this? Like average salary ten years ago versus today?

Everyone says they are going down, but noone has any verifyable numbers. Do people just go into medicine expecting to be swimming in gold and have their hopes dashed?

Here's a publication about recent cuts in surgeon's salaries (you only needed to ge back a page to see this):
http://www.facs.org/ahp/pubs/whatsurg0207.pdf

So if you "wanna be doc" for the money, it's time to give that a second thought.
 
3. Most importantly, you can't charge more for higher quality. This is a huge business problem. Volvo has made it's business plan = safety. You pay ridiculous amounts of money for a Volvo because you think they are safer. Are they? I have no idea. But man, Volvo's done a great job of trying to convince me of that, and when you have a young kid you start to think that "maybe it's worth all that money..." In medicine, you can't charge more for your services (in general), so there's no incentive to offer better "customer service".

Overall, very good points. There is an interesting thing happening in primary care where docs are trying to charge more for offering higher quality. My primary care physician recently sent me a letter saying that if I wanted to stay on as a patient it would require a fee of $5,000 per year. He is going to limit his practice to 300 people and give them 24 hour access, including his cell phone number. He'll also accompany them to their specialists visits to help guide them through the experience and ask relevant questions to the specialist. I've heard of other physicians moving to this model. I think the U.S. will evolve into a 2-tiered system with a baseline level of care for the masses and people will and able to pay more out of pocket getting even higher quality.
 
Overall, very good points. There is an interesting thing happening in primary care where docs are trying to charge more for offering higher quality. My primary care physician recently sent me a letter saying that if I wanted to stay on as a patient it would require a fee of $5,000 per year. He is going to limit his practice to 300 people and give them 24 hour access, including his cell phone number. He'll also accompany them to their specialists visits to help guide them through the experience and ask relevant questions to the specialist. I've heard of other physicians moving to this model. I think the U.S. will evolve into a 2-tiered system with a baseline level of care for the masses and people will and able to pay more out of pocket getting even higher quality.

That sucks. 300 patients with your cell number who are definitely going to feel entitled to call you for whatever reason they think of because they are paying 5k/yr out of pocket? That sounds like a nightmare.

US care might evolved like you are suggesting but what you are describing is just a differentiation the top tier that doesn't affect the masses who have no or suboptimal access.
 
That sucks. 300 patients with your cell number who are definitely going to feel entitled to call you for whatever reason they think of because they are paying 5k/yr out of pocket? That sounds like a nightmare.

US care might evolved like you are suggesting but what you are describing is just a differentiation the top tier that doesn't affect the masses who have no or suboptimal access.

I think you misunderstood what I was suggesting. Actually, I'm not really suggesting it as much as commenting on an trend I'm observing. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. Clearly we need a baseline level of insurance/health care for all. We're likely going to get some form of this in the near future. That should satisfy the masses. The "top tier" will be comprised of physicians who were either going to retire or go into the business world, but have instead decided to keep practicing only on their terms.

I don't have a problem with this at all. Most physicians will not be able to charge $5000 per patient per year like my former PC. But many wealthy patients do want a greater level of service and care. They want an hour with their physician, not 15 minutes. They want his private number with 24 hour access. I don't so I'm not going to shell out $5K even if I could. But I respect the fact that some people want to pay more service. Is that service worth it? That's a judgment call that's an individual decision.
 
I totally agree. If NP's, PA's, DNP's, etc want to practice medicine, then that's fine. If they do as good a job as us MD's and charge less, that's life. If we offer a better service, then they won''t put us out of business. This might change the way medicine is practiced, or it might not.

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*SNIP*
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Really, if the DNP ends up being the same training as the MD to do the same things, and now we got DO, MD and DNP, then I feel like someone trying to touch his right ear with his left hand instead of his right. Meaning, the government pays for allopathic schools.... and it is now paying for osteopathic schools... so we will have a third branch and call it N-O-Pathic school? And they would apply for residency? Why shouldn't the government go straight to opening more allopathic schools and osteopathic... why go the DNP route. Of course the DNPs would have the advantage of having an active license while in the DNP program although it seems they are trying to give the license only after the DNP is done.. making it the same style as an MD and the DO programs.

So the nursing boards are trying to compete with the medical boards for practice of medicine?
 
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