Will these really mean nothing?

[connie95]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

So I've been reading a bit about LORs and the consensus seems to be that any non-PhD or non-MD letters are considered lowly by adcoms and tend to be overlooked. However, I find this hard to believe. I mean, isn't the whole point of LORs to showcase your character as seen by people that know you very well? I personally am planning to get the following letters:

1. Neuroscience letter (PhD)
2. Research letter - possibly two from different PI's (one PhD and one MD)
3. *Communication letter (non-PhD, adjunct faculty)
4. *Possibly a volunteer letter (Hospice/Children care)
5. *Possibly a science letter -Biostats/Brain and Behavior (GTA - PhD student)

I'm really worried about the ones I have starred. These professors actually know me well and can elaborate on my skills beyond the usual of getting good grades, passion for medicine, etc. I think these letters will emphasize my listening, speaking, service and teamwork skills. Hence, I believe they would be able to write me a pretty decent letter, especially the communication one. However, the teachers are not PhDs/MDs…most school req. say they need 2 science and 1 non-sciene letter; they say nothing about qualification.

So will these letters really mean nothing??? I would appreciate some adcom input too! @Goro @gyngyn @LizzyM @Catalystik @Ismet

 

[Goro]

Chill, you'll be fine.

So I've been reading a bit about LORs and the consensus seems to be that any non-PhD or non-MD letters are considered lowly by adcoms and tend to be overlooked. However, I find this hard to believe. I mean, isn't the whole point of LORs to showcase your character as seen by people that know you very well? I personally am planning to get the following letters:

1. Neuroscience letter (PhD)
2. Research letter - possibly two from different PI's (one PhD and one MD)
3. *Communication letter (non-PhD, adjunct faculty)
4. *Possibly a volunteer letter (Hospice/Children care)
5. *Possibly a science letter -Biostats/Brain and Behavior (GTA - PhD student)

I'm really worried about the ones I have starred. These professors actually know me well and can elaborate on my skills beyond the usual of getting good grades, passion for medicine, etc. I think these letters will emphasize my listening, speaking, service and teamwork skills. Hence, I believe they would be able to write me a pretty decent letter, especially the communication one. However, the teachers are not PhDs/MDs…most school req. say they need 2 science and 1 non-sciene letter; they say nothing about qualification.

So will these letters really mean nothing??? I would appreciate some adcom input too! @Goro @gyngyn @LizzyM @Catalystik @Ismet

 

[Catalystik]

I'd prefer to read a faculty letter from someone who knows you very well and can give examples of your personal qualities in action than from a PhD who writes a generic letter, regurgitates facts from your CV, and clearly has no appreciation of traits you might have that are desirable in a physician.

 

[connie95]

Chill, you'll be fine.

Thanks for your input Goro! But I was just reading through another thread and I saw that you said you give no weight to LOR's from TA's…so in that case, would my starred letters not be considered genuine?

I give no weight to LORs from TAs.

 

[moop]

So I've been reading a bit about LORs and the consensus seems to be that any non-PhD or non-MD letters are considered lowly by adcoms and tend to be overlooked. However, I find this hard to believe. I mean, isn't the whole point of LORs to showcase your character as seen by people that know you very well? I personally am planning to get the following letters:

1. Neuroscience letter (PhD)
2. Research letter - possibly two from different PI's (one PhD and one MD)
3. *Communication letter (non-PhD, adjunct faculty)
4. *Possibly a volunteer letter (Hospice/Children care)
5. *Possibly a science letter -Biostats/Brain and Behavior (GTA - PhD student)

I'm really worried about the ones I have starred. These professors actually know me well and can elaborate on my skills beyond the usual of getting good grades, passion for medicine, etc. I think these letters will emphasize my listening, speaking, service and teamwork skills. Hence, I believe they would be able to write me a pretty decent letter, especially the communication one. However, the teachers are not PhDs/MDs…most school req. say they need 2 science and 1 non-sciene letter; they say nothing about qualification.

So will these letters really mean nothing??? I would appreciate some adcom input too! @Goro @gyngyn @LizzyM @Catalystik @Ismet

Whenever such misconceptions are spewed about what is said on this site, my response is this: You have not read SDN enough. Thus, your impression of the consensus is wrong.

 

[moop]

Thanks for your input Goro! But I was just reading through another thread and I saw that you said you give no weight to LOR's from TA's…so in that case, would my starred letters not be considered genuine?

Only one of your starred letters seems to come from a TA. I think @Goro's point is that with only 1 LOR from a TA and 4 others from people who [you claim] know you well, you will be fine, even if some people (i.e., Goro himself) don't weight TAs as heavily or at all.

Again, I don't think you read SDN quite enough to be able to tell all the intricacies of the short or ostensibly contradictory posts people often write, so it's good you're asking follow-ups. Tread carefully.

 

[LizzyM]

When we say, "2 science, 1 non-science" the common interpretation is that you have a letter from a faculty member who teaches English, History, Art History, Drama, Philosophy, Sociology, Music, Studio Arts, foreign language etc, etc.

More so than science faculty, these faculty members may have seen you in small groups, in class discussion, and in the writing of essays requiring critical thinking and writing skills. One of the best letters I've read came from a college coach who commented not only on the athlete's work ethic but on his behavior on road trips and in his interactions with the public that the coach had observed.

Letters from volunteer coordinators tend to be brief and factual. "This letter certifies that Connie Conners has served as a volunteer at Mighty Memorial Hospital since July 2014 and has provided 57 hours of service in the hospice unit and emergency department." Most of those letters are not helpful.

If you can avoid it, don't give your letter writer your resume or your personal statement. Ask them to write a letter based on what they have observed personally. We don't need a rehash of your accomplishments that would be otherwise unknown to the writer; it is a waste of the writer's time and ours.

 

[Catalystik]

Personally, I'd view a LOR from an undergrad TA and a graduate TA differently, but one can generally ask a TA to request that the professor overseeing the class co-sign the letter to "up" its impact.

 

[connie95]

When we say, "2 science, 1 non-science" the common interpretation is that you have a letter from a faculty member who teaches English, History, Art History, Drama, Philosophy, Sociology, Music, Studio Arts, foreign language etc, etc.

More so than science faculty, these faculty members may have seen you in small groups, in class discussion, and in the writing of essays requiring critical thinking and writing skills. One of the best letters I've read came from a college coach who commented not only on the athlete's work ethic but on his behavior on road trips and in his interactions with the public that the coach had observed.

Letters from volunteer coordinators tend to be brief and factual. "This letter certifies that Connie Conners has served as a volunteer at Mighty Memorial Hospital since July 2014 and has provided 57 hours of service in the hospice unit and emergency department." Most of those letters are not helpful.

If you can avoid it, don't give your letter writer your resume or your personal statement. Ask them to write a letter based on what they have observed personally. We don't need a rehash of your accomplishments that would be otherwise unknown to the writer; it is a waste of the writer's time and ours.

Thank you! In that case, I think my communication letter would be great in elaborating on unique skills. But with the sciences, are you saying that you would be okay with a non-PhD/GTA letter considering it's a good science LOR? Once again, these are the ones that I want to use, except the professors are currently PhD students :/

5. *Possibly a science letter -Biostats or Brain and Behavior professor (GTA - PhD student)

 

[connie95]

Personally, I'd view a LOR from an undergrad TA and a graduate TA differently, but one can generally ask a TA to request that the professor overseeing the class co-sign the letter to "up" its impact.

Thanks for the advice! I actually do plan to have the professor co-sign and I'm sure this is possible for both the GTA letters I am considering. However, the person that will be co-signing will not have any experience having me as a student…they probably don't know my name, but can simply "support" the letter based on their trust for the GTA professor writing my letter. Is this okay?

Also, are you saying that graduate TA letters have more weight?

 

[Catalystik]

Thanks for the advice! I actually do plan to have the professor co-sign and I'm sure this is possible for both the GTA letters I am considering. However, the person that will be co-signing will not have any experience having me as a student…they probably don't know my name, but can simply "support" the letter based on their trust for the GTA professor writing my letter. Is this okay?

Yes.

 

[Goro]

This. Also, the LOR from someone who oversees your volunteer efforts is definitely not a TA!

Personally, I'd view a LOR from an undergrad TA and a graduate TA differently, but one can generally ask a TA to request that the professor overseeing the class co-sign the letter to "up" its impact.

 

[gyngyn]

Letters from physicians you shadowed, friends of the family (or family members!) and your own physician are not worth sending.

 

[connie95]

Letters from physicians you shadowed, friends of the family (or family members!) and your own physician are not worth sending.

Thank you for your input! But would the letters I have mentioned (and starred) be good for top schools such as yours? Here they are:

1. Neuroscience letter (PhD)
2. Research letter - possibly two from different PI's (one PhD and one MD)
3. *Communication letter (non-PhD, adjunct faculty)
4. *Possibly a volunteer letter (Hospice/Children care)
5. *Possibly a science letter -Biostats/Brain and Behavior (GTA - PhD student)

 

[gyngyn]

Thank you for your input! But would the letters I have mentioned (and starred) be good for top schools such as yours? Here they are:

1. Neuroscience letter (PhD)
2. Research letter - possibly two from different PI's (one PhD and one MD)
3. *Communication letter (non-PhD, adjunct faculty)
4. *Possibly a volunteer letter (Hospice/Children care)
5. *Possibly a science letter -Biostats/Brain and Behavior (GTA - PhD student)

1, 2 and 3 are fine. 4 is usually useless since they just confirm hours and that you caused no trouble. 5 is likely to have little impact if not co-signed.

 

[senzen]

Letters from physicians you shadowed, friends of the family (or family members!) and your own physician are not worth sending.

Don't people commonly send a LOR from a physician they shadowed?

 

[gyngyn]

Don't people commonly send a LOR from a physician they shadowed?

No. They include the hours in the EC's (along with a contact person).
This is for MD schools. DO's view this differently.

 

[Doug Underhill]

Much of my clinical volunteering comes from a medical student-run clinic for the underserved. If I were to ask for a letter, should it be from the clinic director (a medical student) or one of the attendings who volunteers there?

 

[LizzyM]

Don't people commonly send a LOR from a physician they shadowed?

For DO applications, a LOR from a DO is required, AFAIK, but allopathic schools just go by the listing with a contact in the experience section.

 

[LizzyM]

Much of my clinical volunteering comes from a medical student-run clinic for the underserved. If I were to ask for a letter, should it be from the clinic director (a medical student) or one of the attendings who volunteers there?

You don't need a letter from the clinic. Just listing it in your experience section and listing the clinic director or an attending who knows you well as the contact is sufficient.

 

[senzen]

No. They include the hours in the EC's (along with a contact person).
This is for MD schools. DO's view this differently.

Oh no way!! I could have sworn that a lot of MD schools would like to see an LOR from shadowing an MD. I know certain DO schools require it. Thanks for the input.

Going back to what @LizzyM said, if they described characteristics about the person in a positive light, would that not be helpful? Since it can show how the person has qualities that would make him or her a good physician in the future.

 

[LizzyM]

Oh no way!! I could have sworn that a lot of MD schools would like to see an LOR from shadowing an MD. I know certain DO schools require it. Thanks for the input.

Going back to what @LizzyM said, if they described characteristics about the person in a positive light, would that not be helpful? Since it can show how the person has qualities that would make him or her a good physician in the future.

Most of the letters from physicians are not informative. What can someone say, "you arrived on time, were appropriately dressed and groomed, stood off to the side with good posture and treated the staff with respect."? It begins to sound like the Boy Scout: "trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. " except that there isn't much opportunity to be helpful, thrifty, or brave. Usually curious gets thrown around or "asks good questions".

I'd much rather hear about your critical thinking skills and your willingness to wade into class discussions of difficult topics in a small group setting.

 

[gyngyn]

Oh no way!! I could have sworn that a lot of MD schools would like to see an LOR from shadowing an MD. I know certain DO schools require it. Thanks for the input.

Going back to what @LizzyM said, if they described characteristics about the person in a positive light, would that not be helpful? Since it can show how the person has qualities that would make him or her a good physician in the future.

As just noted, physician letters are uniformly positive. For this reason and others they are not useful. We apparently love everyone who shadows us! Letters tend to be bland recitations of pleasant personal qualities and do not help us distinguish between candidates.

 

[gyngyn]

Much of my clinical volunteering comes from a medical student-run clinic for the underserved. If I were to ask for a letter, should it be from the clinic director (a medical student) or one of the attendings who volunteers there?

Attending!

 

[Catalystik]

I could have sworn that a lot of MD schools would like to see an LOR from shadowing an MD.

Very few that I've noticed. But sometimes one's school's premed committee includes it on their list of requirements, which might imply to premeds that every receiving med school gives it weight.

 

[Goro]

This is DO-school dependent. Mine is OK with MD LORs.

To follow up on gyngyn's comment, in > 12 years of doing interviews, I have seen only one bad LOR from a clinician. it may be that everyone is on their best behavior around a doctor, or doctors just can't bear to write bad LORs!

For DO applications, a LOR from a DO is required, AFAIK, but allopathic schools just go by the listing with a contact in the experience section.

 

[moop]

Oh no way!! I could have sworn that a lot of MD schools would like to see an LOR from shadowing an MD. I know certain DO schools require it. Thanks for the input.

Going back to what @LizzyM said, if they described characteristics about the person in a positive light, would that not be helpful? Since it can show how the person has qualities that would make him or her a good physician in the future.

Solution: read SDN more to erase wrong impressions of what the admissions game is like!