:)

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[psych.meout]

I wouldn't pick any of those.

 

[neil32]

Do you have access to current students? Specifically 4th years? I just accepted an offer from a program that provided the contact information for current students after I requested it. I specifically asked for 4th years, because they just received their Match results, and you can get an idea as to how successful their students were. I also spoke to 3rd and 2nd years. Do this for all the programs. I learned things about my program that I did not learn from the professors or the website, and that helped me realize the program was a good match.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Do you have access to current students? Specifically 4th years? I just accepted an offer from a program that provided the contact information for current students after I requested it. I specifically asked for 4th years, because they just received their Match results, and you can get an idea as to how successful their students were. I also spoke to 3rd and 2nd years. Do this for all the programs. I learned things about my program that I did not learn from the professors or the website, and that helped me realize the program was a good match.

Generally a good idea, but places like William James have huge cohorts. Their program data on their website indicates that there are currently 90 students in their fourth year. You won't get a representative sample. Plus, anyone in theirv4th year there has already invested OVER $200,000 in tuition and fees, with another up to 50k+ to go. You may remember the phenomenon of "cognitive dissonance" from your intro to psych class- with such a RIDUCULOUSLY, CRIMINALLY, EXPLOITATIVELY HUGE, you're likely to get positive reviews regardless of actual lived experiences. I'd ask the school for list of students who left the program and get their perspective! Better yet, forget about them and don't go there. Spend the next year or so making yourself more competitive for better programs thatvwont lead to untenable amounts of debt (or a waste of funds that could payoff more if better spent).

Springfield College is newer program, so outcome data not as available/useful. It's only ~10k per year, and I can't imagine that your training would be worse than at WJU. Neither is great, and neither has a great reputation, though Springfield's rep is more neutral-to-never heard of them/don't know anything about them. I'm in the latter category, and live and work 10-20 miles from the campus. If yiu must choose one of these (and, really, you mustn't!), why would you pay 5 times a much for pretty much the same thing at WJU than SC, and have a class size of 90 instead of 10?

 

[psychedaboutpsych123]

They all have fairly low match rates for internship, as well as low licensure rates, which is concerning. When comparing places, check out the student outcomes- at the end of the day, being able to get an (APA ACCREDITED!!) internship and get licensed is the goal, and if you can't do that, that's many years and money down the drain.

(Note, some places will NOT hire you without an accredited internship. The VA is one that comes to mind, and its the biggest hospital system in the country and hires a TON of psychologists... You'll want to get an accredited one so all doors are open for you)

 

[spacegiraffe]

I don’t know much about either program but I will say that I know someone from William James and they’re one of the best clinicians I know! Very well-trained and talented.

 

[WisNeuro]

Friends don't let friends matriculate into WJ.

 

[PsychNLife]

I am currently a WJC student (wasn’t my top choice, considered many other programs). I’m almost at the end of my first year. I’d be happy to talk to you (and anyone else) about the good, decent, neutral, bad, and ugly so far. I can only speak to my personal experience, but I’m happy to discuss it. I know not many PsyD students from these programs are on these forums, so I am willing to offer up my experience and answer questions (either privately or publicly)

 

[niceman]

There are multiple posts about WJC so feel free to use the search function up there. I am glad that an actual WJC student is here and willing to answer questions. You may also want to read this if you are considering taking out substantial loans for these programs:

A PsyD story (mostly $$$ talk)

OK, I know this is a long post, but if you’re considering pursuing an unfunded PsyD, you may want to read this because detailed first-person accounts of PsyD debt are rare. I know that my case is not representative, but I want to talk about money because very few of my peers/colleagues do/did...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

William James is ridiculously expensive and not a program I could recommend. I'm not familiar with springfield college, so hopefully others have some input. I'd strongly consider improving your experience and re-applying in 1-2 years. I know that's probably not what you wanted to hear, but getting in $200k-$300k debt will be near impossible to dig out from under.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I don’t know much about either program but I will say that I know someone from William James and they’re one of the best clinicians I know! Very well-trained and talented.

Im sure you have. I have worked with several grads of and students from WJU. Some were really good, most weren't. I've also worked with several grads of and students from other, more reputable programs. Some were pretty bad, most weren't. Or I could be lying and making this all up. While they may contain useful and accurate information, testimonials (especially from largely anonymous folks on the internet) should be weighted pretty low when making quarter-to-a-third of MILLION dollars decisions that could negatively impact your well being for decades. There is objective data on current and historic outcomes and tuition publishe on the program websites. There's also several posts hereabouts regarding the realities of 250k loans and compound interest as it relates to median psychologist salaries.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

Hi everyone, I recently have been accepted to William James College Clinical PsyD and Springfield Counseling PsyD and I am having the hardest time making decisions. I also got waitlisted from Marywood Clinical PsyD and Adelphi Clinical PhD. My first choice is Adelphi PhD but in case I don't get into either of my waitlists, I am not sure where to go. Can you please let me know what are pros and cons about these programs?

Thank you!

Adelphi, like the others, is incredibly expensive and the cost of living in the area is oppressively expensive. I would anticipate needing loans in excess of $250k to cover everything. Additionally, they have a very strong psychodynamic focus which can be limiting depending on what you want to do and where you want to settle down.

I don’t think you’ll get many people here encouraging you to take on that kind of debt. It’ll impact your ability to purchase a home, travel, etc. Please do not underestimate this. I went to a fully funded program but in a very high cost area, so I needed to take out some loans to cover living expenses. Nowhere near the amount you would need to take for your programs but it’s still impactful and annoys the heck out of me.

 

[Sanman]

Adelphi, like the others, is incredibly expensive and the cost of living in the area is oppressively expensive. I would anticipate needing loans in excess of $250k to cover everything. Additionally, they have a very strong psychodynamic focus which can be limiting depending on what you want to do and where you want to settle down.

I don’t think you’ll get many people here encouraging you to take on that kind of debt. It’ll impact your ability to purchase a home, travel, etc. Please do not underestimate this. I went to a fully funded program but in a very high cost area, so I needed to take out some loans to cover living expenses. Nowhere near the amount you would need to take for your programs but it’s still impactful and annoys the heck out of me.

I will add to this that those I know from this program have very weak assessment training relative to other programs.

 

[Sanman]

I am currently a WJC student (wasn’t my top choice, considered many other programs). I’m almost at the end of my first year. I’d be happy to talk to you (and anyone else) about the good, decent, neutral, bad, and ugly so far. I can only speak to my personal experience, but I’m happy to discuss it. I know not many PsyD students from these programs are on these forums, so I am willing to offer up my experience and answer questions (either privately or publicly)

Curious about your opinions on this. I remember Boston and the surrounding area being rather untenable on a graduate student budget over a decade ago. I feel like it really would hurt now. Did not apply to MSPP, but I did interview elsewhere in the area. At least I got to have lunch with Edith Kaplan.

 

[PsychNLife]

Curious about your opinions on this. I remember Boston and the surrounding area being rather untenable on a graduate student budget over a decade ago. I feel like it really would hurt now. Did not apply to MSPP, but I did interview elsewhere in the area. At least I got to have lunch with Edith Kaplan.

Yes the Boston area is pretty expensive in general. Housing, restaurants, movies… all fairly expensive. Can confirm. I don’t work outside of practicum and grad school stuff, so I’m not making money at the moment. I’m thankful that I live with parents (and my husband who has a salary and lives with us), so rent isn’t a significant worry (and honestly they generally take care a lot of other costs as well).

We don’t go out much these days partly because of covid and partly grad school keeps me quite busy.

A lot of my cohort is less privileged than I am, and has to either live further out (like up to an hour and a half) or live quite frugally. I couldn’t imagine having full time job or multiple jobs while studying and making that work.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

I will add to this that those I know from this program have very weak assessment training relative to other programs.

I also was involved in a massive ethical violation from someone who graduated from Adelphi that disturbs me more and more every time I think about it (happened ~10 years ago). Not saying that this is indicative of the program as a whole. But it’s just another reason it’s left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[chicandtoughness]

Hi I got into WJC, Springfield, and Adelphi a couple years ago but decided not to go. Assuming you don't get off the waitlist, I would take Springfield over WJC. The cost burden of WJC is just not worth it. Training-wise you'll get the same quality of training, but Springfield will have smaller cohorts so more attention. WJC is very much a "you're on your own" program... the students who are proactive and work hard will come out greater clinicians, but those that don't come out a HOT MESS. But that begs the question - if you're proactive and work hard, you'll be a great clinician regardless if you go WJC or Springfield so... GO FOR THE CHEAPER PROGRAM.

 

[PsychNLife]

Hi I got into WJC, Springfield, and Adelphi a couple years ago but decided not to go. Assuming you don't get off the waitlist, I would take Springfield over WJC. The cost burden of WJC is just not worth it. Training-wise you'll get the same quality of training, but Springfield will have smaller cohorts so more attention. WJC is very much a "you're on your own" program... the students who are proactive and work hard will come out greater clinicians, but those that don't come out a HOT MESS. But that begs the question - if you're proactive and work hard, you'll be a great clinician regardless if you go WJC or Springfield so... GO FOR THE CHEAPER PROGRAM.

Very much agree about WJC being a program where it is what you make of it. You have to be very proactive in seeking out opportunities. I’ve done a lot of arguing with admin, trying to get on professors radars, making sure all my classes line up, and seeking outside research opportunities, and it’s a lot of effort and work to do so.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

If you're gonna go there...make sure you have a public service gig. Or can afford it. Know a William James grad who just had his 300k wiped clean, but still not sure if worth it. Probably find the same or better elsewhere.

 

[WisNeuro]

If you're gonna go there...make sure you have a public service gig. Or can afford it. Know a William James grad who just had his 300k wiped clean, but still not sure if worth it. Probably find the same or better elsewhere.

That's insane. It's stories like this that make me want to switch my voting patterns so I am not having to fund these poor decisions.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

That's insane. It's stories like this that make me want to switch my voting patterns so I am not having to fund these poor decisions.

Yep. Dude pulls in 150-175 a year too. There's part of me that (almost) respects the borderline criminogenic behavior. Almost.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If it was through PSLF, I suppose you could say he at least was making some amount of payment for ~9 years (until the recent deferments). Although on $300k in loans and an income-based repayment plan, even earning $150-175k/year, I'm almost certain the payments wouldn't touch the principle. That's a lot of forgiven debt.

I'd be hesitant to recommend taking on $300k in debt for medical or dental school. I cannot think of a scenario in which I'd suggest it for a doctorate in psychology.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

If it was through PSLF, I suppose you could say he at least was making some amount of payment for ~9 years (until the recent deferments). Although on $300k in loans and an income-based repayment plan, even earning $150-175k/year, I'm almost certain the payments wouldn't touch the principle. That's a lot of forgiven debt.

I'd be hesitant to recommend taking on $300k in debt for medical or dental school. I cannot think of a scenario in which I'd suggest it for a doctorate in psychology.

Yeah, I've had a handful of colleagues with this level debt tell me they got it forgiven all of a sudden one morning because of the changed pslf stuff. All of them were making bare minimum payments, one in particular said she never even thought about the debt, just "assumed it would go away one day." Yikes.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, I've had a handful of colleagues with this level debt tell me they got it forgiven all of a sudden one morning because of the changed pslf stuff. All of them were making bare minimum payments, one in particular said she never even thought about the debt, just "assumed it would go away one day." Yikes.

Even though I am exposed to it often, I'm still surprised at the level of financial ignorance and recklessness by seemingly intelligent people. And then I get miffed that I am responsible for their ignorance monetarily.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Yeah, I've had a handful of colleagues with this level debt tell me they got it forgiven all of a sudden one morning because of the changed pslf stuff. All of them were making bare minimum payments, one in particular said she never even thought about the debt, just "assumed it would go away one day." Yikes.

Also just found out this dude hasn't made any payments for 2 years since COVID but all of the months still counted as payment. Covid really helped dude luck out.

 

[Peacemaker36]

It's not rational to blame students for taking on massive educational debt given that the government policies (as written) have always been clear: work for a PSLF site for 10 years and your loans will be forgiven. We can all debate the merits of this policy, and I think there are valid arguments on both sides. Personally I would probably not vote for this policy.

The problem, as many have said on SDN over the years, is that one shouldn't rely on the government to maintain and adhere to consistent policies over time. In this case, PSLF has been a fiasco because it was poorly managed by the bureaucracy, leading to 99% of PSLF applications being denied. However, finally, this year, the government is living up to its promise. The psychologists who have had their loans forgiven are not hitting some lottery, they are benefiting from the original contract being fulfilled.

Can one blame young aspiring psychologists for having faith that the government will be true to its word? I think for many Americans, particularly those on the left, government is something to be trusted. I don't share their enthusiasm but it's hardly shameworthy that these youngsters believed in the American dream.

 

[Sanman]

It's not rational to blame students for taking on massive educational debt given that the government policies (as written) have always been clear: work for a PSLF site for 10 years and your loans will be forgiven. We can all debate the merits of this policy, and I think there are valid arguments on both sides. Personally I would probably not vote for this policy.

The problem, as many have said on SDN over the years, is that one shouldn't rely on the government to maintain and adhere to consistent policies over time. In this case, PSLF has been a fiasco because it was poorly managed by the bureaucracy, leading to 99% of PSLF applications being denied. However, finally, this year, the government is living up to its promise. The psychologists who have had their loans forgiven are not hitting some lottery, they are benefiting from the original contract being fulfilled.

Can one blame young aspiring psychologists for having faith that the government will be true to its word? I think for many Americans, particularly those on the left, government is something to be trusted. I don't share their enthusiasm but it's hardly shameworthy that these youngsters believed in the American dream.

It is not just about trusting the government. The government is incentivizing poor financial decisions at every turn. A lot of people know they are making a poor financial decision, but they expect the government to continue to bail them out of that decision. Gee, this seems like a terrible idea, but IBR or PSLF will bail me out so who cares. There is plenty of blame to go around. That said, some of us made the hard decisions to be responsible and it seems to often be shooting ourselves in the foot. For example, the VA is currently going back and offering EDRP for clinicians already hired. PSLF is being changed. The federal government is wiping away debt only on those that defaulted on their obligations in many cases. Those of us who made the sacrifice and paid off the loans early are out of luck. Keep the debt (or just don't pay it) and buy nice stuff, the government is happy to find a way to wipe away your debt now.

 

[WisNeuro]

It's not rational to blame students for taking on massive educational debt given that the government policies (as written) have always been clear: work for a PSLF site for 10 years and your loans will be forgiven. We can all debate the merits of this policy, and I think there are valid arguments on both sides. Personally I would probably not vote for this policy.

The problem, as many have said on SDN over the years, is that one shouldn't rely on the government to maintain and adhere to consistent policies over time. In this case, PSLF has been a fiasco because it was poorly managed by the bureaucracy, leading to 99% of PSLF applications being denied. However, finally, this year, the government is living up to its promise. The psychologists who have had their loans forgiven are not hitting some lottery, they are benefiting from the original contract being fulfilled.

Can one blame young aspiring psychologists for having faith that the government will be true to its word? I think for many Americans, particularly those on the left, government is something to be trusted. I don't share their enthusiasm but it's hardly shameworthy that these youngsters believed in the American dream.

I'd argue that it's quite rational to blame both the person taking out the loan, as well as the system in which those types of loans thrive. Both can be at fault for perpetuating a terrible system.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

It does have to be a bit of a slap in the face to those who busted their butts in undergrad. That being said....I would take advantage of it if I needed to.

 

[Sanman]

Why the dentist with $1 million in student debt spells trouble for federal loan programs

For those that don't understand why there is blame to go around.

 

[Peacemaker36]

It is not just about trusting the government. The government is incentivizing poor financial decisions at every turn. A lot of people know they are making a poor financial decision, but they expect the government to continue to bail them out of that decision. Gee, this seems like a terrible idea, but IBR or PSLF will bail me out so who cares. There is plenty of blame to go around. That said, some of us made the hard decisions to be responsible and it seems to often be shooting ourselves in the foot. For example, the VA is currently going back and offering EDRP for clinicians already hired. PSLF is being changed. The federal government is wiping away debt only on those that defaulted on their obligations in many cases. Those of us who made the sacrifice and paid off the loans early are out of luck. Keep the debt (or just don't pay it) and buy nice stuff, the government is happy to find a way to wipe away your debt now.

Is the government bailing them out, or is the government sticking to the contract in which the psychologist has planned to work in an under-served area that does not have enough providers? I'm asking this sincerely. I thought the reason PSLF exists is because otherwise there would be no access to care in certain impoverished areas? Maybe I am being naive, but aren't there students who go into grad school fully aware of what they are planning to do?

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Is the government bailing them out, or is the government sticking to the contract in which the psychologist has planned to work in an under-served area that does not have enough providers? I'm asking this sincerely. I thought the reason PSLF exists is because otherwise there would be no access to care in certain impoverished areas? Maybe I am being naive, but aren't there students who go into grad school fully aware of what they are planning to do?

Just my observation: most I know who have had their huge loans forgiven work in decent sized cities. For state or fed. Make decent living with EXCELLENT benefits and retirement. It was more seen as a given for these folks that they weren't going to have to pay it back. Never planned to.

 

[Sanman]

Is the government bailing them out, or is the government sticking to the contract in which the psychologist has planned to work in an under-served area that does not have enough providers? I'm asking this sincerely. I thought the reason PSLF exists is because otherwise there would be no access to care in certain impoverished areas? Maybe I am being naive, but aren't there students who go into grad school fully aware of what they are planning to do?

I didn't realize Manhattan and San Francisco were impoverished. I am being a bit flippant here. However, there is no requirement that you need to work in an underserved area. You may be mixing up PSLF and EDRP. PSLF only requires you to work for a government agency or 501C3 non-profit. This includes any VA hospital in the country, any state hospital, etc (including NYC, San Fran, Miami, etc). Most of the places that we all start a career. I could make a nice six figure salary and have a huge debt forgiven simultaneously. They are fully aware of what they are planning to do. I planned a VA career and could have easily racked up tons of grad school debt and assumed it will all work out. I didn't. To contrast this, I know a couple on IBR in their 40s, paying on student loans and building a summer house in Europe.

 

[WisNeuro]

Just my observation: most I know who have had their huge loans forgiven work in decent sized cities. For state or fed. Make decent living with EXCELLENT benefits and retirement. It was more seen as a given for these folks that they weren't going to have to pay it back. Never planned to.

Likewise, most people I know who have had it are working in metro VAs or very large metro "non-profits." I'm curious as to how many people are actually doing work for the under served or impoverished .

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I do think for some professions (e.g., physicians), PSLF can be a decent enticement to work in settings (e.g., VA) that might otherwise have difficulty attracting applicants due to disparity in pay, desirability of work, etc. For psychologists, VA and many other government positions are already seen as desirable by many, so PSLF is essentially a bonus.

Edit: PSLF might, however, encourage psychologists to stay in a PSLF-eligible position for longer than they would otherwise. So I suppose that's a "win" for what PSLF was attempting to achieve.

 

[Sanman]

I do think for some professions (e.g., physicians), PSLF can be a decent enticement to work in settings (e.g., VA) that might otherwise have difficulty attracting applicants due to disparity in pay, desirability of work, etc. For psychologists, VA and many other government positions are already seen as desirable by many, so PSLF is essentially a bonus.

Edit: PSLF might, however, encourage psychologists to stay in a PSLF-eligible position for longer than they would otherwise. So I suppose that's a "win" for what PSLF was attempting to achieve.

For sure, there are primary care docs, inner city teachers, and public defenders that will be helped. For each of those, there is a rich suburban district teacher, mid tier law grad that works for the federal government, or private school PsyD grad that works for the VA. Those in the latter group could have chosen a similar path to me (public schools, funded program, drive beater cars for a few extra years, pay off the debt quickly), but they chose to enjoy their lives a bit more. I have friends and colleagues getting 200k+ in debt relief with nicer cars, nicer homes, and weekly brunch dates. There was no reason not to take out the debt. Meanwhile, colleges will continue to raise tuition, PhD programs will fold to start money making PsyD programs, and lower tier law, pharmacy ,etc schools will thrive on the dream that you can get out, take a government job, and suffer no consequences to taking the easy route. Or, just take IBR if all else fails. Tax payers will be left holding the bag and eventually this cycle with implode as the housing market did because you can't give everyone a six figure job and loan forgiveness.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I feel like the OG Jon Snow would have an interesting take on this current set of affairs.

 

[helpme_please]

I am currently a WJC student (wasn’t my top choice, considered many other programs). I’m almost at the end of my first year. I’d be happy to talk to you (and anyone else) about the good, decent, neutral, bad, and ugly so far. I can only speak to my personal experience, but I’m happy to discuss it. I know not many PsyD students from these programs are on these forums, so I am willing to offer up my experience and answer questions (either privately or publicly)

Hi! I, too, have been recently accepted to this program and am on the fence about whether or not I should attend in the fall. I'd love to hear about your experience publicly or privately, whichever you are more comfortable with. Is the cost worth it? Are you being fulfilled in this program? How reputable would you say it is, especially with field placements and whatnot? And anything else you think I should know would be great!

 

[PsychNLife]

Hi! I, too, have been recently accepted to this program and am on the fence about whether or not I should attend in the fall. I'd love to hear about your experience publicly or privately, whichever you are more comfortable with. Is the cost worth it? Are you being fulfilled in this program? How reputable would you say it is, especially with field placements and whatnot? And anything else you think I should know would be great!

I think, being in my first year, its difficult to tell if the program will ultimately be “worth it”. Of course I wish it was cheaper, as that would be good for my entire cohort including myself! However, to me, if I get my license and find a good job/create a successful practice, it would be worth it TO ME.

In regards to reputation, it can also be difficult to say. I have my next years practicum at a major hospital and the person running the department is an alum, so there is that. I looked locally to see where some other alums are located, and a good amount of them (NOT all, but a good amount) seem to be doing decently. However, there are some people who will decide to not hire people from the program (or similar programs), or so I’ve heard.

Personally, I have enjoyed my field placements thus far. I had my first one at a really heavily resourced school district in the fancyish part of town. My next one will be at a major hospital, so I’m not upset. My supervisors have been decent I think but I don’t have too much to compare it to. However, NOT everyone will get these sites as they’re competitive.

Am I feeling fulfilled? I’d say that depends on the day, and also on whatever outside stuff I have going on. Some of my classes are quite engaging (especially the clinical practice specific ones), but some are less so (mainly the ones that seem too reminiscent of what I’ve taken already). I’m also one of those people who tries really hard to seek outside stuff… like I’ve applied to a bunch of labs locally but haven’t gotten anything but having outside stuff helps to feel more fulfilling (for me). No responses yet though lol.

 

[jjz2]

Friends don't let friends matriculate into WJ.

Can you explain why? i am considering going to WJC for my psyD. is it not a good idea? my other option is going to BU to get my MSW and then maybe getting a LCSW or PhD in social work. i really do think a psyd is a good option for my needs of wanting to assess and give treatment. also, i gotta say, i care that psyds tend to earn more than LCSWs in the field.

 

[PsychSupreme]

Can you explain why? i am considering going to WJC for my psyD. is it not a good idea? my other option is going to BU to get my MSW and then maybe getting a LCSW or PhD in social work. i really do think a psyd is a good option for my needs of wanting to assess and give treatment. also, i gotta say, i care that psyds tend to earn more than LCSWs in the field.

PsyDs may earn more, on average, than LCSWs when in private practice taking insurance, but LCSWs typically do not have $200k+ in debt to pay down, and they start earning more quickly since they finish school much more quickly.

 

[jjz2]

PsyDs may earn more, on average, than LCSWs when in private practice taking insurance, but LCSWs typically do not have $200k+ in debt to pay down, and they start earning more quickly sense they finish school much more quickly.

do you know anything about the quality of the WJC PsyD program or have you heard anything from anyone who has gone there/goes there? Also, thanks for your reply!

 

[PsychSupreme]

do you know anything about the quality of the WJC PsyD program or have you heard anything from anyone who has gone there/goes there? Also, thanks for your reply!

I know it has a questionable reputation and is notoriously expensive.

 

[Mama Bear]

William James PsyD EPPP pass rate sucks.

 

[jdawg2017]

I trained in Boston and they have a mixed reputation. Like any program, they have good students who excel (mostly of their own drive). The bad students are really awful and contribute to the mixed reputation, and the large cohort sizes make oversight at the program level poor (IMO - it’s a downfall of any large training program). I’m biased coming from a small cohort, funded program, but I would not have considered their program for a variety of reasons.

I don’t think the debt is trivial unless you are *extremely* wealthy and can pay upfront. The earnings potential is not great given high levels of debt (easily 150-200k+), and really crappy earnings during internship and fellowship (2 years at least). My partner is a LCSW and made 70k -ish annually in a group practice right out of their program carrying about a 20-25 patient case load per week for therapy. Their debt is also significantly less than people I know from WJ and other self-pay doctoral programs (50k for context with some outside support from a formal place of work and some savings we had).

 

[Sanman]

I have come to the conclusion that a WJ PsyD is the educational equivalent of buying a brand new Maserati. They are both extremely expensive (about the same price in fact), both pretend to be a luxury product but the components are cheaply made despite the price, the product is often unreliable, and lots of people will think you are a fool for having spent money this way. Those that don't know better will be impressed. It will financially ruin some people and yet a few others are thrilled with the experience despite the downsides.

The question for the OP is whether they are the type of person to go out and buy a Maserati at this stage of life? Me...I am a Honda/Toyota guy because I prefer good value. That is also why I prefer funded state school grad programs.

 

[PsychNLife]

I'll add here what I put in the other recent post as a student.

It is an extremely expensive program, ridiculously so. Even though debt isn't the biggest concern for me, it absolutely bothers me that they get away with that tuition price. I feel very badly for my peers that require food stamps to make it work. I am extremely lucky in that I get to live with family, and I have a husband who works, which makes things a lot easier.

The classes and content, as far as my understanding goes, meet the necessary criteria for APA standards and licensure (that is, if you're a diligent student and pay attention in class). They cover what you need for the most part, and have been interesting (I've been able to take LGBTQ+ electives which I've enjoyed).

The professors have overall been supportive and knowledgeable in their specialties. However, they seem burnt out at times, and the school sometimes hires quite young professors that are still adjusting to the teaching side of the profession. I've also had professors with many years in the field as well. I've had some that I absolutely adore.

Practicum placements can be quite tricky, as it's a large cohort competing. However, if you are strategic in where you apply and have a strong resume coming in, it is very possible to have highly regarded placements. The placement options vary year to year, and some are really amazing and top hospitals and some are at less resourced community health centers. It can be hit or miss. My first two years I went to top notch placements, but my current one I don't like quite as much. At some places, the support and training is phenomenal, and others are very much less so.

I absolutely wish my cohort was smaller so we would each have more resources and individual support. However, it's a far cry from any claims that all of the cohort shouldn't be there. There are certainly some of my classmates I've encountered that I believe shouldn't have gotten in, but many others that I feel are deserving of being in a doctoral program. So again, it is mixed.

The administration is a hassle, but this is the case for many programs.

I enjoy that the curriculum includes a clinical practice course alongside our placements, so we get more support from professors explicitly on concerns regarding clinical matters at our site.

There are times when I consider if I should have picked a social work program, as I also applied to those my first round, and I truly don't know. I am thankful that I am getting training in assessment, and that I will ultimately make a higher paycheck, as well as possibly have an upper hand when it comes to private practice, but I do think a good amount of my goals could have been covered in a SW program.

I am happy to answer any other questions you might have.

TLDR: It's a program that meets the requirements to get you to where you need, but is ultimately mixed regarding cohort size, admin issues, and placement choices.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I probably posted this before, but will say it again. I was on a dissertation committee for WJU student a few years ago. I get their proposal- which their faculty advisor (full professor) had approved and other committee member (faculty/instructor and graduate of the program) said was a really nice proposal and good project. I read it, and the student was proposing that there was no difference between groups as a result of his independent variable. They were basically proposing to prove the null hypothesis, and doing so with inferential statistics (which, incidentally, would not have been the right statistics to use to disprove the null). When I pointed this out during their proposal meeting, his advisor said "that's why we encourage students to get outside members for their commmittee." That's what 200k+ gets you.

(Yes- I aware that there are some articles out there about justifications for "proving" the null. This was clearly not I away justified or related to any of that stuff, but rather fell into the category of- as my stats professor used to say- the "infinite number of uninteresting explanations for how two things aren't related")

 

[psych.meout]

I probably posted this before, but will say it again. I was on a dissertation committee for WJU student a few years ago. I get their proposal- which their faculty advisor (full professor) had approved and other committee member (faculty/instructor and graduate of the program) said was a really nice proposal and good project. I read it, and the student was proposing that there was no difference between groups as a result of his independent variable. They were basically proposing to prove the null hypothesis, and doing so with inferential statistics (which, incidentally, would not have been the right statistics to use to disprove the null). When I pointed this out during their proposal meeting, his advisor said "that's why we encourage students to get outside members for their commmittee." That's what 200k+ gets you.

(Yes- I aware that there are some articles out there about justifications for "proving" the null. This was clearly not I away justified or related to any of that stuff, but rather fell into the category of- as my stats professor used to say- the "infinite number of uninteresting explanations for how two things aren't related")

Tangentially related, for my comps/prelims I did a meta-analysis. One of the papers I screened in my search was the recent "dissertation" from a diploma mill grad. It didn't meet my inclusion criteria but I read through it anyways out of curiosity. It was pretty short for a dissertation and the stats were quite basic and didn't really support the conclusions they made in the discussion. I would have been embarrassed to have my name on that and there was definitely no way it would ever get published. I imagine this was somewhat similar to the quality of the research coming out of WJC.

 

[WisNeuro]

Tangentially related, for my comps/prelims I did a meta-analysis. One of the papers I screened in my search was the recent "dissertation" from a diploma mill grad. It didn't meet my inclusion criteria but I read through it anyways out of curiosity. It was pretty short for a dissertation and the stats were quite basic and didn't really support the conclusions they made in the discussion. I would have been embarrassed to have my name on that and there was definitely no way it would ever get published. I imagine this was somewhat similar to the quality of the research coming out of WJC.

"Why do I need research if I just want to be a clinician? Oh, got to go prep for my session of Brainspotting followed by some Parts work with clients!"