Wilson's Disease

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whopper

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  1. Attending Physician
Posted this in the GI thread but got not responses.

Short: Does abnormal LFTs appear before psychotic symptoms in Wilson's? Heard a theory that the liver will absorb quite a bit of copper before the copper starts to get elevated in the blood, therefore causing abnormal LFTs before psychiatric sx start.

Long: got a guy who's family is insisting I order a ceruplasmin test to rule out Wilson's even though there's no reason to believe he has it other than that he's got psychotic sx. I'm encountering the managed care hurdle of them not wanting to pay for it. However the guy has a normal LFT. If the theory I mentioned is true, then there's no need to order the ceruplasmin test anyways because the normal LFT should rule out the Wilson's disease theory. I'm doing this more for their peace of mind than because I believe Wilson's is involved.


Looked at the usual sources trying to find evidence to back the theory but can't find any as of yet. Only source I haven't tried that's a usual suspect to check out is Harrison's Book of IM.
 
So some family member read about Wilson's and now they're thinking it's the cause? Sounds like someone doesn't want to hear the likely truth (understandably) about the prognosis of the 1st break.

Patients don't dictate testing or treatment to us. Tell them they're welcome to a ceruloplasmin, if they pay for it, but that their HMO (also understandably) won't ante up for it.

I agree that psychotic symptoms would likely be late in the disease. Haven't seen that many Wilson's cases - only a few - so I can't say for sure.
 
Aliment Pharmacol Ther 2004; 19: 157–165.
Review article: diagnosis and current therapy of Wilson’s disease
P. FERENCI
Department of Internal Medicine IV, Gastroenterology and Hepatology, University of Vienna, Austria

CLINICAL PRESENTATIONS
Wilson’s disease may present with a variety of clinical
conditions, the most common being liver disease and
neuropsychiatric disturbances. None of the clinical signs
is typical or diagnostic. One of the most characteristic
features of Wilson’s disease is that no two patients, even
within a family, are ever quite alike. With the increased
awareness of Wilson’s disease, patients are being diagnosed
earlier and ‘late’ consequences of the disease, such
as Kayser–Fleischer rings or severe neurological symptoms,
can be prevented and, in future, may occur less
frequently. Uncommon manifestations of Wilson’s
disease include hypercalciuria and nephrocalcinosis,
chondrocalcinosis and osteoarthritis, sunflower cataracts
and cardiac manifestations.
The finding of a Kayser–Fleischer ring is a useful
indicator of severe copper overload. If the ring is not
detected by clinical inspection, the cornea should be
examined under a slit lamp by an experienced ophthalmologist.
Kayser–Fleischer rings are present in 95% of
patients with neurological symptoms, in 50–60% of
patients without neurological symptoms and in only
10% of asymptomatic siblings.
Most patients with Wilson’s disease, whatever their
clinical presentation or pre-symptomatic status, have
some degree of liver disease. The most common age of
hepatic manifestation is between 8 and 18 years;
however, cirrhosis may be present in children below
the age of 5 years, or may be diagnosed in patients
presenting with advanced chronic liver disease in their
fifties or sixties, without neurological symptoms and
without Kayser–Fleischer rings. Liver disease may
mimic all forms of common liver conditions, including
asymptomatic transaminasaemia, acute or chronic
hepatitis, fulminant hepatic failure and cirrhosis.

Neuropsychiatric disease
Neurological symptoms usually develop in the midteenage
years or twenties.21 However, there are welldocumented
cases of late (45–55 years) neurological
disease. The initial symptoms may be very subtle, such
as mild tremor and speech and writing problems, and
are frequently misdiagnosed as behavioural problems
associated with puberty. The hallmark of neurological
Wilson’s disease is a progressive movement disorder
characterized by dysarthria, dysphagia, apraxia and a
tremor–rigidity syndrome (‘juvenile Parkinsonism’).
About one-third of patients present with psychiatric
abnormalities, such as reduced performance in school
or at work, depression, labile mood, sexual exhibitionism
and frank psychosis. Frequently, adolescents with
problems in school or work are referred for psychological
counselling and psychotherapy.
Patients presenting with neurological symptoms may
also suffer from significant liver disease. In a substantial
proportion, symptomatic liver disease pre-dates the
occurrence of neurological signs. In many patients with
neurological disturbances, asymptomatic liver disease
can only be diagnosed by liver biopsy.22 However, if a
liver biopsy is performed in all patients presenting with
neurological symptoms at diagnosis, the proportion of
patients with cirrhosis is 38.7%23 and about one-half of
patients have only minimal liver disease.
DIAGNOSIS
The diagnosis of neurological Wilson’s disease is usually
made on the basis of clinical findings and laboratory
abnormalities (see Table 1). No additional tests are
required if Kayser–Fleischer rings are present and/or
serum ceruloplasmin levels are low.24 However, there
are a few well-documented cases of neurological
Wilson’s disease without Kayser–Fleischer rings.25
Clinical neurological examination is more sensitive
than any other method for the detection of neurological
abnormalities. Brain magnetic resonance imaging is
useful for documenting the extent of changes in the
central nervous system.26 The most common abnormalities
are changes in the signal intensity of grey and
white matter and atrophy of the caudate nucleus,
brainstem and cerebral and cerebellar hemispheres.
The diagnosis is more complex in patients presenting
with liver diseases (see Figure 3). None of the commonly
used parameters alone allows a certain diagnosis
of Wilson’s disease. Usually, a combination of various
laboratory parameters is necessary to firmly establish
the diagnosis. Kayser–Fleischer rings may be absent in
up to 50% of patients with Wilsonian liver disease and
in an even higher proportion with fulminant Wilson’s
disease. Serum ceruloplasmin may be in the low to
normal range in up to 45% of patients with hepatic
Wilson’s disease.27 On the other hand, even a low
ceruloplasmin level is not diagnostic for Wilson’s disease
in the absence of Kayser–Fleischer rings. Ceruloplasmin
can be decreased in severely malnourished subjects and
in heterozygous carriers of the Wilson’s disease gene.28
Very low levels were found in a patient with autoimmune
hepatitis, which increased following steroid
treatment. Ceruloplasmin is undetectable in familial
aceruloplasminaemia. Thus, in patients with liver
disease, a normal ceruloplasmin level cannot exclude
Wilson’s disease, nor is a low level sufficient to make a
diagnosis of Wilson’s disease.
 
Great information. Thank you. In regard to patient and family request for investigation of certain conditions, my personal believe is to consider work ups and try to understand their concerns. I think one of our duties as a physician is to do our best to give support, and peace of mind to patient and family. I do understand the limitations of managed care, (does not mean I agree with that policy). Sometimes we should look at the situation from the patient's eye. There must be some reason for them to think about a certain cause of the symptoms, such as Wilson here. The sad thing would be missing a diagnosis, especially in a case that we have ways to help and improve the outcomes.
 
Great information. Thank you. In regard to patient and family request for investigation of certain conditions, my personal believe is to consider work ups and try to understand their concerns. I think one of our duties as a physician is to do our best to give support, and peace of mind to patient and family. I do understand the limitations of managed care, (does not mean I agree with that policy). Sometimes we should look at the situation from the patient's eye. There must be some reason for them to think about a certain cause of the symptoms, such as Wilson here. The sad thing would be missing a diagnosis, especially in a case that we have ways to help and improve the outcomes.

This sort of thing is at least partially responsible for the skyrocketed costs of healthcare (defensive medicine). If a family's concern is backed up by reasonable assertions (genetic loading, exposure syndromes) then it should be considered. Ordering tests from left field because they think it should be done doesn't make sense.
 
True.

I decided I would do the test only if I saw some other sx of Wilson's. Well, difficulty speaking is one of them and this guy has it, though I'm attributing that to his Clozaril. That's a stretch to be Wilsons.

I did some looking up on pubmed. Psychosis is one of the more rare sx of the disorder. While as mentioned above, any sx could occur in any order, psychosis is on the very rare list even for this disease.
 
I am trying to learn something here. It may help me, and my patients, in my future practice. So please share your opinion or your way of handling these situations more in detail. How would I know the patient does not need a psychiatric evaluation if the family is requesting one? Family doctors don't hesitate to consult, ( maybe defensive medicine). But would they mention it is per family request. I guess there is a lot more to learn in residency than diseases and treatments.Thanks for your response.
 
I am trying to learn something here. It may help me, and my patients, in my future practice. So please share your opinion or your way of handling these situations more in detail. How would I know the patient does not need a psychiatric evaluation if the family is requesting one? Family doctors don't hesitate to consult, ( maybe defensive medicine). But would they mention it is per family request. I guess there is a lot more to learn in residency than diseases and treatments.Thanks for your response.

A consultation is supposed to consist of a question about the patient from the consultee (the other physician). You then see the patient, and offer your opinion and recommedations to the consultee - who may or may not choose to follow them. Patients or families requesting to see a psychiatrist do not constitute a consultation since there's no question being asked, and any actual problem should be first evaluated by the primary physician who can then ask for specialist assistance if they need it. Abuse of consultation tends to only be an issue for certain specialties, but psychiatry is probably chief among them - it's the "while they're in the hospital, we might as well get our money's worth" syndrome. Can you imagine consults to cardiology or neurosurgery "per family request"? Another favorite is "Consult for psych issues." Again, no question here.
 
I never actually mathematically tracked how many of my consults I found BS (the real reason had nothing to do with a psychiatric pathology), but it had to be at least 25%, probably more. Gutt impression was about 45-75% of them.
 
Thanks for the explanations. when you choose to decline the consult, do you mention the reason? Better said do you have to mention why you decline?
 
I know this thread is getting a bit derailed but...

How often do:

1. consultants complain about/refuse a consult in private settings? Isn't this a revenue source that is likely to be persued?

2. do consultees make such silly consults as we see in academia? I imagine that private docs are less likely to "dumb" on other private docs but that's just a guess.

thanks
 
Thanks for the explanations. when you choose to decline the consult, do you mention the reason? Better said do you have to mention why you decline?

Now that I'm all grown up and have all kinds of responsibilities, I'm a little mellower in my approach. I tend to attempt to educate the consultee (especially if they're a resident) as to how to appropriately request a consult (sometimes even going so far as to frame the question for them). If they cop the "you're the psychiatrist so do as you're told" attitude, then I have no problem in telling them to go f#$% themselves.
 
I know this thread is getting a bit derailed but...

How often do:

1. consultants complain about/refuse a consult in private settings? Isn't this a revenue source that is likely to be persued?

2. do consultees make such silly consults as we see in academia? I imagine that private docs are less likely to "dumb" on other private docs but that's just a guess.

thanks

Don't know much about the private world, but I'm guessing the answer to question one depends entirely on the patient's insurance coverage.
 
I am trying to learn something here. It may help me, and my patients, in my future practice. So please share your opinion or your way of handling these situations more in detail. How would I know the patient does not need a psychiatric evaluation if the family is requesting one?

It would seem to be related to the rule of thumb for breath mints--if some one offers you one, assume you need it! :laugh: Similarly, if someone thinks you need a psych eval...😀
 
This is kind of random, but maybe the patient's family watches House? There was an episode a few seasons ago where a woman who apparently had paranoid schizophrenia actually had Wilson's Disease... Maybe that's what motivated the family to bring it up...
 
This is kind of random, but maybe the patient's family watches House? There was an episode a few seasons ago where a woman who apparently had paranoid schizophrenia actually had Wilson's Disease... Maybe that's what motivated the family to bring it up...

This is pretty amazing. If the family is doing it on basis of what they saw on House, its probably a lot of denial and clutching at the straws.

I heard a story of a lady who goes to webmd everytime someone in her family has a symptom diagnosed her husband with Lymphoma and it turned out he had a simple viral infection.
 
This is pretty amazing. If the family is doing it on basis of what they saw on House, its probably a lot of denial and clutching at the straws.

I heard a story of a lady who goes to webmd everytime someone in her family has a symptom diagnosed her husband with Lymphoma and it turned out he had a simple viral infection.

There may well be denial and clutching at straws involved, but how much is a serum ceruloplasmin anyway? Not all families are malignant whiners. I know Wilson's is not that common, but in the interests of advocating properly for the patient and fully educating the family, we should be willing to take the next step--whatever that is.
I had a neuro attending who told me a story of a patient who was being treated psychiatrically for psychosis, and had motor symptoms which were being attributed to EPS. She went 5 years before an alert primary care doc looked at her eyes and saw the Kaiser-Fleischer rings! He encouraged me to have a higher level of suspicion for these things. We get all righteously pi$$ed at the ER for not "ruling out the medical causes" when the admit a patient to us "acting strangely" and they turn out to have a fingerstick of 600. We run TSHs on every depression admission. I'm not saying we should do the same with ceruloplasmin on every psychosis, but I don't think we should be quite so dismissive of the family's concern.
 
There may well be denial and clutching at straws involved, but how much is a serum ceruloplasmin anyway? Not all families are malignant whiners. I know Wilson's is not that common, but in the interests of advocating properly for the patient and fully educating the family, we should be willing to take the next step--whatever that is.
I had a neuro attending who told me a story of a patient who was being treated psychiatrically for psychosis, and had motor symptoms which were being attributed to EPS. She went 5 years before an alert primary care doc looked at her eyes and saw the Kaiser-Fleischer rings! He encouraged me to have a higher level of suspicion for these things. We get all righteously pi$$ed at the ER for not "ruling out the medical causes" when the admit a patient to us "acting strangely" and they turn out to have a fingerstick of 600. We run TSHs on every depression admission. I'm not saying we should do the same with ceruloplasmin on every psychosis, but I don't think we should be quite so dismissive of the family's concern.

I absolutely agree. I think it is very important to include medical conditions in differential diagnosis of psychiatric conditions, esp. in unusual presentations and totally new onset cases. I actually advocate all the time for more involvement of psychiatrists in patients' medical issues, and who can argue against patient and family education🙂.
 
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I got every selfish intention of finding a patient with Wilson's. You can publish the case, you can be the heroic doc that solves a case that no other psychiatrist could solve etc. I've had that happen a few times in residency. Its very fun & rewarding to start using your real medical training (all of it, not just psychiatry), and it does come into play once in awhile in clnical psychiatry. E.g. I had a patient with hypocalcemia--> which I thought was causing her depression. Turned out she had hyperparathyroidism that no one--not the ER doc, or her primary doc detected, and this was the cause of her depression.

I've read or seen a few medical dramas including House where schizophrenia is misdiagnosed as Wilson's. Best one I read was Doctors, a novel by Erich Segal (excellent read by the way & accurate portrayal of the stresses we docs go through from medschool to attending).

In this particular case I mentioned, the family is grasping for straws. They're well, very bummed out that their adult son has schizophrenia, & don't seem to get it that some patients (actually most) will never be 100% the way they were before the illness set in. There is enmeshment going on and I'm suspecting a big EE value in this family.

I would order a ceruplasmin test if the institution had no problem with it, but they spelled it out that I shouldn't unless I suspect it being there because other symptoms of the disease are present. I did look this guy over to see if anything else would indicate Wilson's. Nothing else is.

Since the logic is quite sound, I'm abiding by it, especially since it was spelled out by the chief IM doc in the facility.
 
After seeing KF rings at least five times in med school, I'm convinced Wilson's is about as common as pheos are, which I saw at least five times in med school...

Aww, the glories of tertiary care training...🙄

And after all that, I just saw my first case of pericarditis on call the other night... My epidemiology is broken.
 
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