WJC, DU, or WI PsyD Programs - Please Help!

[helpme_please]

Hello,
I recently applied to William James, University of Denver, and the Wright Institute for their clinical psychology PsyD programs and have been accepted to all of them. I was hoping anyone familiar with any of these schools could provide some insight that would help me make a decision. Some background information, I just finished my master's in clinical mental health counseling and have clinical experience. Thoughts from current students, alumni, or even those who have had interactions from students who went to any of these schools would be much appreciated. I am also a first-gen student and am really anxious about making a decision because I know the gravity of what I would be signing up for (especially financially - oh how I wish I was rich 🙁 ). But if any of these are better quality, more reputable, and set clinicians up for success, I am willing to bite the bullet on finances and just work my ass off to pay it off. I don't want money to be the reason I sacrifice a good education, but I am the one who has to pay for it and want to get my money's worth. This is all new for me and I am doing this on my own, so if there are other things I should be looking for please let me know!

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[summerbabe]

I am also a first-gen student and am really anxious about making a decision because I know the gravity of what I would be signing up for (especially financially - oh how I wish I was rich 🙁 ).

I’ll be blunt - you are not (or should not) be the target audience for these programs. I think it might only makes sense for people of means (family will happily pay part or all of tuition, access to generational wealth such as inheriting paid off property, etc) who want to stay in a specific area while pursuing this career.

I am an immigrant and my family came to this country with nothing. There’s zero chance that I would have gone the PsyD route even if I felt like I could have gotten a good education.

I just finished my master's in clinical mental health counseling and have clinical experience.

Why do you want a doctorate? Depending on location, established MS level providers can make close to, as much as and sometimes even more than PhD/PsyDs and even be better trained therapists in some cases (eg., continued education and supervision on specific therapies + experience).

I am willing to bite the bullet on finances and just work my ass off to pay it off.

There’s working hard but working hard to pay off $200,000 of loans while also trying to afford things like a mortgage and supporting a family is a totally different ballgame.

 

[bluecolourskies]

PhD/PsyD - William James College PsyD, Pacific University PsyD, or Palo Alto PhD?

Hi all, I recently got accepted into the clinical psychology PsyD programs at both William James College and Pacific University. I have an interview at Palo Alto University for their Clin psy PhD program in late March. Oddly enough, I had applied to their PsyD program but they offered me an...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[bluecolourskies]

I think all of those are in expensive zip codes, no?
I know some people take the "eh I am already spending 90 grand or so on this, whats a few thousand more?" and even took out loans to supplement their income on internship...that just seems very stupid to me.
One option is the health scholarship program that is offered by the navy and army. You go to school first, they pay for everything AND give you a stipend, and then after you graduate, you serve out four years as an officer.

I know you asked about schools, but I would consider where you will be living and how you will be able to afford it, unless you will be having a partner or family who can support your living expenses.

 

[psycle708]

I just want to say congrats on your acceptances. I know that you put in hard work during application season no matter where you applied. The reaction you get to expensive doctoral programs on SDN is going to be mostly negative. It's for good reason but I imagine not pleasant to hear at this point. Anecdotally from my limited view, I would say that University of Denver has the better reputation out of those three. As for finances, I recommend taking the input of people on this forum seriously, but then going to mentors in your life that you trust to make the big decisions. Good luck!

 

[PsyDuck90]

What are you hoping to get out of a PsyD that you can't get as a master's level counselor and post-grad CE credits? The exuberant cost of these programs and the lost wages cost of being in school full time for another 5-6 years removes the income discrepancy between master's and doctoral level wages.

 

[Sanman]

To answer your question, Denver has a better reputation than the other two. That really does not mean much as the other two have a poor reputation and all three are very expensive. A slightly better reputation will not really mean that much in paying back all that debt. That said, I have the same question as the others, why go at all if you can be licensed at the masters level?

 

[helpme_please]

I just want to say congrats on your acceptances. I know that you put in hard work during application season no matter where you applied. The reaction you get to expensive doctoral programs on SDN is going to be mostly negative. It's for good reason but I imagine not pleasant to hear at this point. Anecdotally from my limited view, I would say that University of Denver has the better reputation out of those three. As for finances, I recommend taking the input of people on this forum seriously, but then going to mentors in your life that you trust to make the big decisions. Good luck!

Thank you. Yeah, I have seen the reaction regarding pricing so I try to not take it too much to heart. I understand the rationale for the comments. I just don't want that to be the sole reason I choose to or choose not to proceed with a program. Thank you for your feedback regarding the program. DU has also offered me scholarships and work study which will cover a good chunk of my finances, but not as much as if I would have gone with a PhD program. Thank you again! This was really helpful.

 

[helpme_please]

I’ll be blunt - you are not (or should not) be the target audience for these programs. I think it might only makes sense for people of means (family will happily pay part or all of tuition, access to generational wealth such as inheriting paid off property, etc) who want to stay in a specific area while pursuing this career.

I am an immigrant and my family came to this country with nothing. There’s zero chance that I would have gone the PsyD route even if I felt like I could have gotten a good education.

Why do you want a doctorate? Depending on location, established MS level providers can make close to, as much as and sometimes even more than PhD/PsyDs and even be better trained therapists in some cases (eg., continued education and supervision on specific therapies + experience).

There’s working hard but working hard to pay off $200,000 of loans while also trying to afford things like a mortgage and supporting a family is a totally different ballgame.

Thank you for your thoughts and input. I want to pursue a doctoral degree because the opportunities for the field I would like to go into are more limited with an MS than with a doctoral degree. Unfortunately, LPCs do not have the same access to career options as PsyDs/PhDs - or at the very least it seems more difficult to get in the door with just a master's or LPC rather than a doctoral degree. I want to be able to have more options available to me that would allow me to transition with as few issues as possible. I could be wrong, as I mentioned I am first-get with no family who have attained this level of education. And what I am sharing is very much anecdotal in what I have seen, experienced, heard from others, and what I have looked up.

 

[helpme_please]

What are you hoping to get out of a PsyD that you can't get as a master's level counselor and post-grad CE credits? The exuberant cost of these programs and the lost wages cost of being in school full time for another 5-6 years removes the income discrepancy between master's and doctoral level wages.

Honestly, I would like to have more career options available to me. During my master's program, it was said to us that certain fields (e.g., military, forensics, global mental health, government, etc.) aren't as keen on hiring LPCs or master's graduates over someone with a doctoral degree in the same field. It's not impossible, but they made it clear that it'd be a lot more difficult because LPCs aren't held to the same standard in the same fields as other healthcare professions. Even in a military social work course I took, my professor pretty much told me that military and government primarily hire psychologists and LCSW over LPCs - more often than not. And as with any job, networking and having connections help. But if you don't have the resources or access to the same opportunities, it was suggested to me to build upon my education so that more opportunities would be available to me. Trust me, I would have probably stopped after my master's if I thought it would be enough.

 

[summerbabe]

I want to pursue a doctoral degree because the opportunities for the field I would like to go into are more limited with an MS than with a doctoral degree. Unfortunately, LPCs do not have the same access to career options as PsyDs/PhDs - or at the very least it seems more difficult to get in the door with just a master's or LPC rather than a doctoral degree.

What kind of opportunities do you want to have open to you that you believe would not be available now? What do you want your day to day work life look like? If you’re having trouble answering these with specifics, you might benefit from doing some more info gathering before committing to a doctorate.

For example, if your goal is private practice therapy, having a doctorate is technically overkill because anybody who can be licensed independently has the means to open up a private practice. And a doctorate is zero guarantee of increased success.

Even in a military social work course I took, my professor pretty much told me that military and government primarily hire psychologists and LCSW over LPCs - more often than not.

I work in the VA and this is true to a degree. There are more PhD/PsyDs and LCSWs employed since these degrees have been around longer and there are just way more eligible people who hold these licenses.

But there are absolutely more jobs that are now open for LCSWs and LPCs and some even exclusively for MFTs as couple services are being expanded.

DU has also offered me scholarships and work study which will cover a good chunk of my finances, but not as much as if I would have gone with a PhD program.

DU seems to have a good rep so the big question is money. What % range would scholarships and work study cover of tuition and living expenses, which will be high for Denver. Are you still looking at 6 figures worth of loans when it’s all said and done? How much debt do you have from undergrad?

I would look really hard at the total amount of debt that would be needed, adjust for anticipated interest accrual over 20 or 30 years and figure out how much you’d likely pay a month on your loans.

And contrast that to how much you’d likely take home after taxes in a job. I receive a pretty standard GS-13 salary from the VA that’s about $92,500 annually. But once you account for federal and state taxes, healthcare, retirement, and other withholdings, I actually take home about $4400 per month (or $52,000/year) so having a sizable student loan payment each month wouldn’t be ideal.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Honestly, I would like to have more career options available to me. During my master's program, it was said to us that certain fields (e.g., military, forensics, global mental health, government, etc.) aren't as keen on hiring LPCs or master's graduates over someone with a doctoral degree in the same field. It's not impossible, but they made it clear that it'd be a lot more difficult because LPCs aren't held to the same standard in the same fields as other healthcare professions. Even in a military social work course I took, my professor pretty much told me that military and government primarily hire psychologists and LCSW over LPCs - more often than not. And as with any job, networking and having connections help. But if you don't have the resources or access to the same opportunities, it was suggested to me to build upon my education so that more opportunities would be available to me. Trust me, I would have probably stopped after my master's if I thought it would be enough.

What is it that you want to do, specifically? Outside of a very narrow margin, an LPC can get you where you want to be (and I say this as an almost PsyD from a state university). What do you want to do with your career? What do you want your day to day to look like?

 

[psych.meout]

Honestly, I would like to have more career options available to me. During my master's program, it was said to us that certain fields (e.g., military, forensics, global mental health, government, etc.) aren't as keen on hiring LPCs or master's graduates over someone with a doctoral degree in the same field. It's not impossible, but they made it clear that it'd be a lot more difficult because LPCs aren't held to the same standard in the same fields as other healthcare professions. Even in a military social work course I took, my professor pretty much told me that military and government primarily hire psychologists and LCSW over LPCs - more often than not. And as with any job, networking and having connections help. But if you don't have the resources or access to the same opportunities, it was suggested to me to build upon my education so that more opportunities would be available to me. Trust me, I would have probably stopped after my master's if I thought it would be enough.

But this is hypothetical about options and you haven't really articulated about what you would specifically like to be doing on a daily basis and how you would need a doctorate to do that.

Conversely, the programs you've mentioned here are either diploma mills (which will definitely limit your career options) and/or so expensive that your life milestones and other options will be extremely limited.

 

[helpme_please]

What kind of opportunities do you want to have open to you that you believe would not be available now? What do you want your day to day work life look like? If you’re having trouble answering these with specifics, you might benefit from doing some more info gathering before committing to a doctorate.

For example, if your goal is private practice therapy, having a doctorate is technically overkill because anybody who can be licensed independently has the means to open up a private practice. And a doctorate is zero guarantee of increased success.

I work in the VA and this is true to a degree. There are more PhD/PsyDs and LCSWs employed since these degrees have been around longer and there are just way more eligible people who hold these licenses.

But there are absolutely more jobs that are now open for LCSWs and LPCs and some even exclusively for MFTs as couple services are being expanded.

DU seems to have a good rep so the big question is money. What % range would scholarships and work study cover of tuition and living expenses, which will be high for Denver. Are you still looking at 6 figures worth of loans when it’s all said and done? How much debt do you have from undergrad?

I would look really hard at the total amount of debt that would be needed, adjust for anticipated interest accrual over 20 or 30 years and figure out how much you’d likely pay a month on your loans.

And contrast that to how much you’d likely take home after taxes in a job. I receive a pretty standard GS-13 salary from the VA that’s about $92,500 annually. But once you account for federal and state taxes, healthcare, retirement, and other withholdings, I actually take home about $4400 per month (or $52,000/year) so having a sizable student loan payment each month wouldn’t be ideal.

As of now, my interests strongly lie in working for the military or the government, which is why I specified those as examples. Having a private practice is not a primary goal or immediate interest of mine. Maybe down the line I could look more into it, but that's not my primary focus. With my scholarship and work study, about half of my costs are covered. I've been working and saving since I finished my master's to help offset additional costs. Thank you for the considerations on the amount of debt I'd be taking on. That is something I haven't been taking lightly and thinking about it longterm is a thoughtful piece of advice.

 

[helpme_please]

What is it that you want to do, specifically? Outside of a very narrow margin, an LPC can get you where you want to be (and I say this as an almost PsyD from a state university). What do you want to do with your career? What do you want your day to day to look like?

The goal is to work in/for the military or government working either domestically or globally. Global mental health, trauma, disaster mental health, and forensics etc. are where most of my interests lie as far as what I'd like to be doing within the military or government.

 

[helpme_please]

Thank you all for the sound advice regarding finances and alternative options that may not require a PsyD. This has given me a lot to consider and has given me a lot to think about regarding accepting one of these or exploring other avenues to achieve what I want in life. That being said, I really just wanted to know the reputation and quality of the schools I mentioned. I got a couple people who answered this, but my initial question wasn't really answered and kind of took a turn down a different - but still important - path. If anyone has thoughts about the schools themselves, I'd be happy to hear it. This isn't to say the conversation hasn't been productive because these are factors worth continuously considering. I would just also like to have a discussion regarding the schools I originally mentioned.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I have some close colleagues who I greatly respect who are faculty at DU GSPP. I believe it generally provides excellent training, That being said, I can't, in good conscious, recommend the level of debt it requires to anyone. I'd strongly suggest reading this thread: A PsyD story (mostly $$$ talk)

 

[calimich]

Wright Institute has a decent state-wide reputation and is well regarded locally. I also know folks, students and faculty, at both Wright at DU, most seem pretty happy. As you know, both are expensive and despite the decent clinical training, I advise my own students to seek funded opportunities first.

 

[summerbabe]

As of now, my interests strongly lie in working for the military or the government, which is why I specified those as examples.

If you have interest in being an enlisted officer in behavioral health, you should look into HPSP scholarships: Army Medical Scholarships

Currently, many beh health jobs come with EDRP which is a govt sponsored loan forgiveness program specific for govt/DoD employees and these jobs are also PSLF eligible. Hard to say what will happen in the future.

Here’s a list of current government, including civilian DoD, jobs that are LPC eligible: USAJOBS - Search

You might find that what you are looking for could already be available without additional schooling. Good luck!

 

[bluecolourskies]

Thank you all for the sound advice regarding finances and alternative options that may not require a PsyD. This has given me a lot to consider and has given me a lot to think about regarding accepting one of these or exploring other avenues to achieve what I want in life. That being said, I really just wanted to know the reputation and quality of the schools I mentioned. I got a couple people who answered this, but my initial question wasn't really answered and kind of took a turn down a different - but still important - path. If anyone has thoughts about the schools themselves, I'd be happy to hear it. This isn't to say the conversation hasn't been productive because these are factors worth continuously considering. I would just also like to have a discussion regarding the schools I originally mentioned.

To add something a little different to what everyone is saying- sometimes you don't know what types of options are available to you before you are in graduate school. And what you want could change 3+ times while you are in graduate school. Don't feel like you have to figure out RIGHT NOW what you want to do with a doctorate. Some people just want a doctorate.
But like my friend has a ton of loans and I think she pays like $800/month for her loan repayments? That is very steep, thats like almost a rent payment. So whatever you choose, would it be worth this? Especially because I think median rate for psychologists that are starting out is like 80k. Plus there is the year of postdoc, where you will be graduated (so you need to pay loans) but are still not licensed, so you will be paid like $40-50k. Sometimes its a bit higher, sometimes not. Could you afford high monthly loan payments on this salary?

Another friend also went to a doctoral program where she had to pay, but she had a spouse who made a ton, so she didn't work in grad school and didn't worry about loans and stuff. that is another option (if we are throwing out all options lol)

 

[Peacemaker36]

Pretty much no one on SDN would recommend taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars for a doctorate in clinical psychology. I certainly wouldn't.

That said, it always bothers me a little when people say "just get a master's." In major cities where there are many therapists, my sense is that it's much easier for PhD/PsyD's to find patients who will pay out of pocket than it is for MA level clinicians.

I also don't think the public differentiates between PhDs and "diploma mill" PsyDs, although I could be wrong about that. I do think the public cares about prestigious hospital/university affiliations, which graduates of respected graduate schools have a much easier time obtaining.

 

[WisNeuro]

Pretty much no one on SDN would recommend taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars for a doctorate in clinical psychology. I certainly wouldn't.

That said, it always bothers me a little when people say "just get a master's." In major cities where there are many therapists, my sense is that it's much easier for PhD/PsyD's to find patients who will pay out of pocket than it is for MA level clinicians.

I also don't think the public differentiates between PhDs and "diploma mill" PsyDs, although I could be wrong about that. I do think the public cares about prestigious hospital/university affiliations, which graduates of respected graduate schools have a much easier time obtaining.

I wouldn't agree with that sentiment in my metro. I'd say that the cash practices with long waitlists are mostly SW. Our psychologist listserv seems to have pretty good availability when people ask for referrals. I think this may have been true in the past, but no longer. As for the second part, public mostly does not, but colleagues definitely do. I am not alone in my community in that I choose the providers on my patient referral list carefully, and will not put diploma millers on it. We're in a fairly saturated area, so no shortage of providers. I'll recommend SW and masters level before a diploma miller.

 

[Cantab109]

I would suggest spending a bit more time thinking about what specific jobs you would want- and then seeing what is available for LPCs. I know many LPCs who work in forensics and some who work in disaster mental health- to some extent. I dont think the additional years of schooling + debt, and making the same amount of money is worth it to work for the "government" rather than, say, a court or forensic private practice or psychiatric emergency room, etc.

 

[WisNeuro]

I would suggest spending a bit more time thinking about what specific jobs you would want- and then seeing what is available for LPCs. I know many LPCs who work in forensics and some who work in disaster mental health- to some extent. I dont think the additional years of schooling + debt, and making the same amount of money is worth it to work for the "government" rather than, say, a court or forensic private practice or psychiatric emergency room, etc.

Also, I'm curious what is meant by global mental health? Do you mean providing MH services in under-served countries? If so, a lot of this is not done by psychologists, and especially not doctoral level psychologists. Many countries do not have doctoral level psychologists, or even a job title of psychologist regulated within the country.

 

[psych.meout]

Also, I'm curious what is meant by global mental health? Do you mean providing MH services in under-served countries? If so, a lot of this is not done by psychologists, and especially not doctoral level psychologists. Many countries do not have doctoral level psychologists, or even a job title of psychologist regulated within the country.

Also, there's a bit of a disturbing savior complex of Americans just hopping into other countries to provide them with MH services without first developing cultural and linguistic competence. The globe is quite diverse and acting like you are competent to work with every population because you were trained in the US is pretty chauvinistic.

 

[helpme_please]

If you have interest in being an enlisted officer in behavioral health, you should look into HPSP scholarships: Army Medical Scholarships

Currently, many beh health jobs come with EDRP which is a govt sponsored loan forgiveness program specific for govt/DoD employees and these jobs are also PSLF eligible. Hard to say what will happen in the future.

Here’s a list of current government, including civilian DoD, jobs that are LPC eligible: USAJOBS - Search

You might find that what you are looking for could already be available without additional schooling. Good luck!

thank you!

 

[helpme_please]

I have some close colleagues who I greatly respect who are faculty at DU GSPP. I believe it generally provides excellent training, That being said, I can't, in good conscious, recommend the level of debt it requires to anyone. I'd strongly suggest reading this thread: A PsyD story (mostly $$$ talk)

thank you!

 

[helpme_please]

Wright Institute has a decent state-wide reputation and is well regarded locally. I also know folks, students and faculty, at both Wright at DU, most seem pretty happy. As you know, both are expensive and despite the decent clinical training, I advise my own students to seek funded opportunities first.

thank you!

 

[helpme_please]

To add something a little different to what everyone is saying- sometimes you don't know what types of options are available to you before you are in graduate school. And what you want could change 3+ times while you are in graduate school. Don't feel like you have to figure out RIGHT NOW what you want to do with a doctorate. Some people just want a doctorate.
But like my friend has a ton of loans and I think she pays like $800/month for her loan repayments? That is very steep, thats like almost a rent payment. So whatever you choose, would it be worth this? Especially because I think median rate for psychologists that are starting out is like 80k. Plus there is the year of postdoc, where you will be graduated (so you need to pay loans) but are still not licensed, so you will be paid like $40-50k. Sometimes its a bit higher, sometimes not. Could you afford high monthly loan payments on this salary?

Another friend also went to a doctoral program where she had to pay, but she had a spouse who made a ton, so she didn't work in grad school and didn't worry about loans and stuff. that is another option (if we are throwing out all options lol)

Thank you. This is also very helpful!