Working as an associate...

[SCDP]

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Now I'm not just talking right out of school but even 5-10 years out of school. Can associates make around 250k or even more working as an associate for someone or in a chain?

I mean if so, why buy your own practice and go into tons of debt just to make the same amount in your own practice vs working as an associate with no practice debt and be making 250k?

 

[Screwtape]

250k as an associate is definitely not the norm, but they are definitely out there. The conventional wisdom relating to your question is if your making 250k as an associate, you could probably make double or more as an owner. Also as an owner you practice dentistry YOUR way, no one else's.

 

[arkenstone]

"look at this guy totally killing it on ukulele. why hassle with those two extra strings as a guitar player?"

[/sarcasm]

 

[OhioDMD]

Let's do the math. Average associate compensation is 35% of collections. Then our associate's gross collections are $714,286.

Using the same numbers most owners have a 45% profitability therefor 45% of $714,286 is $321,429 plus the owner gets any excess profit from hygiene production. Which is usually 30% so if a full time hygienist produces $150,000 there is another $50,000 that goes to the owner per full-time hygienist.

Autonomy and compensation are two of the pluses however you have to weigh that against the incresed responsibility and financial investment of being an owner.

 

[THS]

I really wish people wouldn't say, "Yeah, it's possible" because then pre-dents and dental students get their expectations WAY too high, and are then disappointed with a $125K job. Do not expect 250K as an associate. Even as an owner, making that kind of money requires some serious marketing skills.

 

[DrJeff]

Benefits of being an associate - you basically have your job that is more or less confined to things that you do in the office is peoples mouths. How much autonomy you have is variable based on the philosophy of the owner of the practice(s) your working in. You get paid whatever your negotiated payment method is (salary, % production, % collection, etc). When you finish up your last patient of the day and have your chart notes made, you go home

Benefits of being an owner - not only is your job confined to what you do in peoples mouths, but you also have to handle, and have the autonomy of running a business. Sometimes that easier (I.e. I want to try a new material oor buy a new piece of equipment) and sometimes that's more difficult (your whole staff both wants a raise and has no clue what their new health insurance under the ACA means for them and are all asking you, etc). As an owner, you will more than likely, but not guaranteed in all instances, to make more money than you would as an associate

Exact salary numbers are frankly pointless, since depending on the type and location of any given practice you can see a HUGE variability in what those numbers are and what they actually mean for your own personal finances

 

[Northwoods00]

All opportunities have different potential. I know a few owners struggling to break 100K/year and I know a few dentists at non-profit health centers making over 300K/year. Location is probably the biggest factor but clinician skill/practice management/marketing ability can account for a large difference in income potential between 2 dentists in the same exact scenario.

 

[SCDP]

All opportunities have different potential. I know a few owners struggling to break 100K/year and I know a few dentists at non-profit health centers making over 300K/year. Location is probably the biggest factor but clinician skill/practice management/marketing ability can account for a large difference in income potential between 2 dentists in the same exact scenario.

What exactly do you mean by non-profit health centers?

I remember reading something about that earlier on this site, someone said something about those health centers where dentists and even recent grads could make bank.

 

[Northwoods00]

By non-profit I mean Federally Qualified Health Centers (FQHC). Many FQHC's attempt to pay a competitive wage, usually determined by survey data and some FQHC's have compensation arrangements beyond base salary such as bonuses and production incentives. FQHC's are usually located in low dental care access areas (rural), so patient volume and production can be high, but keep in mind that to be successful in such an environment you can not be driven by compensation/production alone. Being patient focused and mission driven is a must to succeed long term in such an environment. In addition to compensation, many FQHC's are located in Health Professional Shortage Areas and Dentists in these areas quality for federal loan repayment.

Below is a link providing an overview of FQHC's:

http://www.chrt.org/public-policy/policy-papers/federally-qualified-health-centers-an-overview/

 

[SCDP]

By non-profit I mean Federally Qualified Health Centers (FQHC). Many FQHC's attempt to pay a competitive wage, usually determined by survey data and some FQHC's have compensation arrangements beyond base salary such as bonuses and production incentives. FQHC's are usually located in low dental care access areas (rural), so patient volume and production can be high, but keep in mind that to be successful in such an environment you can not be driven by compensation/production alone. Being patient focused and mission driven is a must to succeed long term in such an environment. In addition to compensation, many FQHC's are located in Health Professional Shortage Areas and Dentists in these areas quality for federal loan repayment.

Below is a link providing an overview of FQHC's:

http://www.chrt.org/public-policy/policy-papers/federally-qualified-health-centers-an-overview/

I see. Wouldn't it be a good idea for a new grad to go work in that type of location maybe their first year or 2 to focus on heavy production and getting fast because they would make a lot more in those areas than in more populated areas?

All the while you make a lot of money and get better, you start planning or looking for you own practice?

I mean if dentists can make 300k+ in those areas I am guessing that new grads could make 200k+ in those areas?

 

[THS]

I mean if dentists can make 300k+ in those areas I am guessing that new grads could make 200k+ in those areas?

The dentists making the big bucks at FQHCs are in management/director positions. New grads are typically paid $100K-$150K (depending on area) with some kind of loan repayment stipend. In my state, loan repayment is up to $30k/year (but it is taxed).

In Alaska, salaries are closer to $150k and loan repayment is close to $47k, untaxed.

 

[SCDP]

The dentists making the big bucks at FQHCs are in management/director positions. New grads are typically paid $100K-$150K (depending on area) with some kind of loan repayment stipend. In my state, loan repayment is up to $30k/year (but it is taxed).

In Alaska, salaries are closer to $150k and loan repayment is close to $47k, untaxed.

So if I have no loan repayment would I still get that extra cash on top of the salary? Or could I just tell them I have to pay loans and pocket the extra cash lol?

 

[Northwoods00]

So if I have no loan repayment would I still get that extra cash on top of the salary? Or could I just tell them I have to pay loans and pocket the extra cash lol?

Your student loans are verified so if you have no student debt you would not qualify for the loan repayment. Anyone looking for a great opportunity at an FQHC can check out the Marshfield Clinic in Wisconsin. They are currently recruiting for a few Dentists and the compensation is competitive. Also, all their sites/locations quality for the tax free federal loan repayment.

www.marshfieldclinic.org

 

[jeffk805dent]

Your student loans are verified so if you have no student debt you would not qualify for the loan repayment. Anyone looking for a great opportunity at an FQHC can check out the Marshfield Clinic in Wisconsin. They are currently recruiting for a few Dentists and the compensation is competitive. Also, all their sites/locations quality for the tax free federal loan repayment.

www.marshfieldclinic.org

granted public health dentistry is not for everybody but I have heard its a pretty good gig.

Are majority of the places in very rural areas. Or are there are areas that accessible with a 1-2 hour drive from a medium/big sized city?

I heard they can only do loan repayment of 50k for two years for 8 years of service, meaning they can only repay 200k (tax free depending on the places) of loans. I would still have 200k of loans left over (technically more since interest accumulates) but with the experience gained can a NHSC dentist have a significant salary raise/benefits?

 

[Northwoods00]

granted public health dentistry is not for everybody but I have heard its a pretty good gig.

Are majority of the places in very rural areas. Or are there are areas that accessible with a 1-2 hour drive from a medium/big sized city?

I heard they can only do loan repayment of 50k for two years for 8 years of service, meaning they can only repay 200k (tax free depending on the places) of loans. I would still have 200k of loans left over (technically more since interest accumulates) but with the experience gained can a NHSC dentist have a significant salary raise/benefits?

Some clinics are within 2 hours of Minneapolis and some are more rural. I've been doing the loan repayment for several years now and will receive the final loan repayment about in a few months. The state of Wisconsin also offers 50K for 3 years but that can not be used in combination with any other loan repayment program, so if you are $200K or more in debt you would probably want to make payments in addition to what is received with loan repayment as interest does accrue pretty quickly on $200K at 6.8%. I don't want to comment too much on salary other than it needs to be competitive to attract and keep dentists in rural areas. Every young dentists wants to be near a major city, so there needs to be incentive for the sacrifice in living in a rural area.

 

[THS]

Are majority of the places in very rural areas. Or are there are areas that accessible with a 1-2 hour drive from a medium/big sized city?

Granted, my entire state is underserved, but there are about 5 or so FQHCs within a 30-45 min drive from a city of 100K+ people.

 

[jeffk805dent]

Some clinics are within 2 hours of Minneapolis and some are more rural. I've been doing the loan repayment for several years now and will receive the final loan repayment about in a few months. The state of Wisconsin also offers 50K for 3 years but that can not be used in combination with any other loan repayment program, so if you are $200K or more in debt you would probably want to make payments in addition to what is received with loan repayment as interest does accrue pretty quickly on $200K at 6.8%. I don't want to comment too much on salary other than it needs to be competitive to attract and keep dentists in rural areas. Every young dentists wants to be near a major city, so there needs to be incentive for the sacrifice in living in a rural area.

yeah I guess if salary was publicly mentioned people would be scrambling to go there.

Is it possible to work at a NHSC site forever? I'm kind of taking a wild prediction that the days of private dentistry might be over and that corporate dentistry would be the new king.

Besides the appeal of public dentistry, I want to avoid the hassle that comes with corporate dentistry (though I have heard some issues at some NHSC sites as well).

 

[Northwoods00]

yeah I guess if salary was publicly mentioned people would be scrambling to go there.

Is it possible to work at a NHSC site forever? I'm kind of taking a wild prediction that the days of private dentistry might be over and that corporate dentistry would be the new king.

Besides the appeal of public dentistry, I want to avoid the hassle that comes with corporate dentistry (though I have heard some issues at some NHSC sites as well).

My loans will be paid completely within the next few months, so I will not longer receive loan repayment but I have no desire to leave my current job at an FQHC. I plan to work here for a very long time and my job satisfaction is higher than my friends from dental school who work in corporate or private practice. I don't like the idea of corporate dentistry being king but it does make me think twice about entering private practice. Many NHSC sites have issues. I've heard of a few good ones and know for sure that Marshfield Clinic is a legitimate long term option if living in a somewhat rural area is considerable.