Would you do it?

[compassionate1]

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Hi,

I am in a unique situation.

The college I teach for, might be opening its own PsyD program soon ( albeit, in school psychology).

cons:
* It will probably be quite some time before it becomes APA accredited. (which will make it harder to find an appropriate internship placement, among other things).

* I prefer clinical / counselling to school psych

Pros:

* I can get in without a hassle

* I might be able to go for free

* It is a train ride away, and I will not have to drive

* I would be comfortable there and my stress level would be low


I am a strong student ( 3.96 undergrad GPA; 4:00 MA GPA) plus won the Psychology Departmental award and was listed on the national Dean's list but lack reseach experience. For the past decade, I have been busy raising a family, dealing with some rather difficult circumstances and catching up with schooling, which I've started relatively later in life ( I am in my thirties now). I do not know if I have a chance to get into a solid program that would also fund me ( or at least waive my tuition cost). GREs are yet to be taken, and I will have strong letters and also wonderful feedback /evaluations from my college students -- both formal and informal.

Until I came to this site, I thought that my chances were pretty good. But everyone here ,who is in the running, seems to have much experience, publications etc. which does not make me feel very good regarding my odds of getting in. All three PsyD programs within driving distance are quite a commute. I currently don't drive on the highway, so that would be another 'phobia' to deal with, as soon as the GRE one is out of the way...


If you had to decide between trying to get into a solid and/or a prestigious program and one that would allow your life ( and that of your core family!) to be much more manageable -- what would you do?

Thanks,


Compassionate1

 

[apumic]

I'd suggest building up your research experience (and a little clinical if you can somehow fit it in) on the side as much as possible and then apply elsewhere. W/o APA accreditation, your degree is, quite literally, worthless. You may have noticed the rants about professional schools; well, if you graduate before your school's program is accredited, you are literally a rung below them on the ladder! I would strongly suggest beefing up your application a bit over the next 8 months or so and applying to some accredited and at least partially-funded programs (Psy.D. or balanced Ph.D.).

 

[HVACPSM]

To add to what apumic says, it concerns me that you are thinking of attending a PsyD program in school psych when you admit that your interests are else where. School Psych is qualitatively very different from Clinical and Couseling Psych (which are much more similar to each other) and it sounds like will not help to you acheieve your career goals.

Also I am concerned about your comment about not driving on the freeway. Why it that? Sounds like this "phobia" is a real phobia and might be causing you a fair amount of functional impairment....

 

[numbereight]

Simply do your best to get accepted to the program(s) of your choice. As a backup plan, apply to lots of schools across the spectrum of competitiveness. Find some entry point into research. Almost anything will be OK but try to 1) do it in your specified area of interest and 2) try to get the experience actually conducting studies as a research assistant. Study hard for your GRE's, take a class if you can afford it. Think more about quality of life and how much you like the program and less about the prestige of the program. You may get into your top choice, you may not, but I think that you'll do fine.

 

[compassionate1]

Thank you all for your comments and insight.

Hvacpsm-- You wrote:

"Also I am concerned about your comment about not driving on the freeway. Why it that? Sounds like this "phobia" is a real phobia and might be causing you a fair amount of functional impairment....[/quote]"

I thank you for your concern....

As someone in the field, I am sure you are aware that phobias are fairly common and that many people have to deal with them to some extent.

I put mine in quotation marks due to the cultural context: I come from a highly traditional community in a different country, in which women do not drive (or go to school beyond highschool level). When I've come to the States, as an adult, along with improving my English and enrolling in a community college, I started taking driving lessons. It is very different learning how to drive when you are seventeen and fearless. It is quite a different story when you have your young ones in the back of the car, and realize the dire ramifications of getting involved in a car collision.
I started driving several years ago, and go everywhere that is local.
But the highway is different because it is high-impact, there is no 'down time', and switching lanes feels nightmarish. ( I tried once and was traumitized)

Does this qualify as a phobia?
Depends how you look at it. Since I teach abnormal psychology, I will examine it from the perspective of what is defined as abnormal:

* Is it socially unacceptable?
Depends which society you are refering to. Where I come from, the mere fact that I drive even locally would be considered one of the world's rarest wonders... In America, I suppose, things are different.

* Does it cause distress?

Not really, because I do stay away from highways 😀

* Is this maladaptive or cause "functional impairment"?

It has not been a problem so far, as I can drive to work easily, take the kids to school and doctor appointments etc. The only time it's been an issue, that I can think of, is when I wanted to go to an out of state outlet mall ( and have hubby drive me there and back) and my husband announced: "It's either me or the mall!" 🙄 , so I asked a girlfriend of mine to come with me instead and we had a SPLENDID time!

Obviously, if I get accepted into a program that I really want to attend and requires a commute, and I will decline the offer due to an inability to overcome this obstacle -- then this may qualify as a phobia.

Finally:
* Does this behavior casuse any risk to self or others?

Well, not as long as I stay away from highways. Until then, I should think that we are all quite safe.

Compassionate1

 

[MorganLilith]

.

 

[compassionate1]

Your point is well taken, even though I agree that you are rather direct.

You are both right and wrong. Yes, you are certainly right in your emphasis on the importance of research experience and the need to follow one's true passion. You are wrong in assuming that I am looking for "the easy way out". If you had read my posts carefully, you would have learnt that I come from a very different background than you and have worked extremely hard to get to where I am. Having a Masters degree and teaching college level ( for the past five years), in a language that is not my native tongue, may not seem like much to you. But for someone who is the first from their entire extended family, to have gone to college -- it is.

I would never dream of doing anything that is unethical. I would not, for example, venture on treating adult populations with a PsyD in school psychology, prior to obtaining an additional degree / respecializing. But having a PsyD degree would allow me to be hired as a full time faculty at the college where i am currently an adjunct, which would mean I would be getting a salary. I can imagine that you are younger, and I do not mean to partronise you, but for someone with a family, making a livinghood is sometimes a good enough reason to choose an alternative route, even if it is clearly not their first choice.

Not everyone had the luxury and the good fortune of growing in a family that can afford to send them to an ivy league school, or to any school for that matter.

I sense that you were sincerely just trying to help, though, so I am not offended. Perhpas with time and exposure to more diverse populations, you will gain insight into what it's like for other people, who come from entirely different backgrounds than you, and will not be as quick to pass judgment.

Research is certainly an important skill but for a future clinician, I think that being able to work with people who come from different walks of life and being able to put yourself in their shoes -- is just as essential.

Kind Regards,

Compassionate1

Wasn't the point of this post (and that person's comment) about your concern with a particular graduate school, and not about the justification of your potential phobia? It seems that from the several posts I have read from you on many different threads, you are really just looking to get a graduate level degree the easiest way possible. Unfortunately, it's really just not that simple. It sounds like you're on the right track (you got your masters, apparently teach at college etc.) That's all great. But a lot of people think they can just "get a degree" and then do what you want to do afterward, even if it has nothing to do with what they are competent doing. Luckily there are systems in place to prevent this. Honestly if I were a client, I would prefer receiving therapy or counseling from someone with an MSW or a masters in counseling than someone with a PsyD in school psychology. In my opinion, the answers to all of your questions on ALL of the posts is : You need experience. Not teaching experience, not life experience, but hard core psychological research experience (especially since it’s so hard getting clinical-but perhaps trying that too). Graduate schools don’t just accept people because they have great grades or people say wonderful things about them. If that were the case, I would have gotten accepted to all of my schools I applied to with a 4.0 undergraduate GPA and a letter of recommendation from a highly respected Harvard professor. You need a significant amount of research experience. I have over a year and a half, and I still feel people have a lot more than I do. Deciding where to go shouldn’t be about deciding on the lesser of two evils. If this is something you are serious about, you need to make sacrifices and decide what’s going to be the best program that fits with your career goals. Otherwise, I feel, you will be doing a disservice to yourself, the professors who spend so much time making you competent in school psychology, and your potential clients. Not to mention, if you realize later that you really DO want to do counseling psychology and that school psychology isn’t relating to that, it is probable that you could want to quit the program—and that’s not fair to anyone. I apologize that this isn’t sugarcoated, and that it might seem pretty direct. But it seems you keep asking similar questions looking for people to come up with different results. I may be completely wrong, but from everything I’ve heard, to get into a program and actually succeed you need research experience, you need to be doing something because it’s what you want to do- not because it’s easy, and you need to be POSITIVE that it’ what you want.
"

 

[MorganLilith]

good luck

 

[compassionate1]

Hi MorganLilith,

OK, we could go back and forth about this for a while but I suspect it would just undermine the purpose of this thread, and in essence -- of this board. I do not wish to quarrel. Clearly, we were both missing important information about the other person and making assumptions. Except, that I am in the error, since as the one who started this thread, I should have clarified my post-doc intentions. ( In the not-so-likely event that I feel compelled to tread the "Road Less traveled " ... rather than go the clincial/ counselling route. posting here is a way of processing things: the rational and the less rational. That and hearing others' feedback, of course).

It appears that we are both individuals with strong personalities. (Actually, I should speak for myself. i do not want to make further unqualified assumptions about you that may or may not have a basis but I do perceive the energy of a highly talented and spirited individual. Not that I perform any 'readings' in my spare time 🙂 )
As is often the case, under such circumstances, when an online dialogue takes place, misunderstandings are apt to happen.

Peace,

Compassionate1

P.S. Thanks for the comment regarding not being able to tell that I am not a native speaker. It is easier in writing... But i still have a lot to learn and do not consider myself to be fully proficient. It is only when I go back to my homeland for a visit, that I realise how effortless conversations can be in comparison. That, and when I teach a late - night class and occasionaly start faltering. It makes me feel like Cinderela, when the clock ticks twelve... But the students are really nice and I am open to corrections, so no problem there.

Not that this is really significant at all, but I don't GO to Harvard. I just worked there. I wasn’t given anything on a silver platter, I worked my way to the top to get the position. Also not that it is significant either, but I didn't grow up privileged or having money whatsoever, I don't know why one would assume that from my comment. I worked all through school to get to where I am right now. I also didn't mean to pass any judgment on you. I didn't say you were looking for the easy way out. There is a severe negative connotation in regards to that, hence why I refrained from using it. I said you were looking to get a degree in the easiest way possible. You yourself said so when stating the pros of going to the program. “I can get in without a hassle” … “I would be comfortable there and my stress level would be low.” I completely understand the difficulties you have with speaking another language, and honestly I would never be able to tell you were not a native speaker- so great job! I too have dealt with SEVERE difficulties that have affected the course of my education and my overall life, but I don’t see what that has to do with being prepared for a graduate level education or have any stalk into the type of program you or I choose. I appreciate that you now say you would get an additional degree, but you did not say that in your previous post. You made it sound as if you were interested in doing counseling or clinical psychology with a degree in school psychology. And that would have been unethical, but now I see I just didn’t have all the facts. Finally, I feel that you seem to be the one who is making sincere judgments about me, when I am just giving you an honest answer that no one apparently seems to have given you. I’m wondering where you got the impression that I haven’t worked with diverse populations. I work in the city where I see people of varying ethnicity, education level, age, sexual orientation, and socioeconomic status. I have compassion for these people and have received endless comments from my supervisors telling me that people keep asking to see me. I think that you might be jumping to conclusions about me because I gave you a controversial answer to a question that apparently you didn’t want honestly answered. I apologize if I offended you (even if you say I didn’t). You gave us the facts of the case, I deliberated, and gave you my honest opinion. If you don’t wish to hear that, then maybe it’s best you ask questions that won’t cause you any discomfort.

Your point is well taken, even though I agree that you are rather direct.

You are both right and wrong. Yes, you are certainly right in your emphasis on the importance of research experience and the need to follow one's true passion. You are wrong in assuming that I am looking for "the easy way out". If you had read my posts carefully, you would have learnt that I come from a very different background than you and have worked extremely hard to get to where I am. Having a Masters degree and teaching college level ( for the past five years), in a language that is not my native tongue, may not seem like much to you. But for someone who is the first from their entire extended family, to have gone to college -- it is.

I would never dream of doing anything that is unethical. I would not, for example, venture on treating adult populations with a PsyD in school psychology, prior to obtaining an additional degree / respecializing. But having a PsyD degree would allow me to be hired as a full time faculty at the college where i am currently an adjunct, which would mean I would be getting a salary. I can imagine that you are younger, and I do not mean to partronise you, but for someone with a family, making a livinghood is sometimes a good enough reason to choose an alternative route, even if it is clearly not their first choice.

Not everyone had the luxury and the good fortune of growing in a family that can afford to send them to an ivy league school, or to any school for that matter.

I sense that you were sincerely just trying to help, though, so I am not offended. Perhpas with time and exposure to more diverse populations, you will gain insight into what it's like for other people, who come from entirely different backgrounds than you, and will not be as quick to pass judgment.

Research is certainly an important skill but for a future clinician, I think that being able to work with people who come from different walks of life and being able to put yourself in their shoes -- is just as essential.

Kind Regards,

Compassionate1

Not that this is really significant at all, but I don't GO to Harvard. I just worked there. I wasn’t given anything on a silver platter, I worked my way to the top to get the position. Also not that it is significant either, but I didn't grow up privileged or having money whatsoever, I don't know why one would assume that from my comment. I worked all through school to get to where I am right now. I also didn't mean to pass any judgment on you. I didn't say you were looking for the easy way out. There is a severe negative connotation in regards to that, hence why I refrained from using it. I said you were looking to get a degree in the easiest way possible. You yourself said so when stating the pros of going to the program. “I can get in without a hassle” … “I would be comfortable there and my stress level would be low.” I completely understand the difficulties you have with speaking another language, and honestly I would never be able to tell you were not a native speaker- so great job! I too have dealt with SEVERE difficulties that have affected the course of my education and my overall life, but I don’t see what that has to do with being prepared for a graduate level education or have any stalk into the type of program you or I choose. I appreciate that you now say you would get an additional degree, but you did not say that in your previous post. You made it sound as if you were interested in doing counseling or clinical psychology with a degree in school psychology. And that would have been unethical, but now I see I just didn’t have all the facts. Finally, I feel that you seem to be the one who is making sincere judgments about me, when I am just giving you an honest answer that no one apparently seems to have given you. I’m wondering where you got the impression that I haven’t worked with diverse populations. I work in the city where I see people of varying ethnicity, education level, age, sexual orientation, and socioeconomic status. I have compassion for these people and have received endless comments from my supervisors telling me that people keep asking to see me. I think that you might be jumping to conclusions about me because I gave you a controversial answer to a question that apparently you didn’t want honestly answered. I apologize if I offended you (even if you say I didn’t). You gave us the facts of the case, I deliberated, and gave you my honest opinion. If you don’t wish to hear that, then maybe it’s best you ask questions that won’t cause you any discomfort.

Your point is well taken, even though I agree that you are rather direct.

You are both right and wrong. Yes, you are certainly right in your emphasis on the importance of research experience and the need to follow one's true passion. You are wrong in assuming that I am looking for "the easy way out". If you had read my posts carefully, you would have learnt that I come from a very different background than you and have worked extremely hard to get to where I am. Having a Masters degree and teaching college level ( for the past five years), in a language that is not my native tongue, may not seem like much to you. But for someone who is the first from their entire extended family, to have gone to college -- it is.

I would never dream of doing anything that is unethical. I would not, for example, venture on treating adult populations with a PsyD in school psychology, prior to obtaining an additional degree / respecializing. But having a PsyD degree would allow me to be hired as a full time faculty at the college where i am currently an adjunct, which would mean I would be getting a salary. I can imagine that you are younger, and I do not mean to partronise you, but for someone with a family, making a livinghood is sometimes a good enough reason to choose an alternative route, even if it is clearly not their first choice.

Not everyone had the luxury and the good fortune of growing in a family that can afford to send them to an ivy league school, or to any school for that matter.

I sense that you were sincerely just trying to help, though, so I am not offended. Perhpas with time and exposure to more diverse populations, you will gain insight into what it's like for other people, who come from entirely different backgrounds than you, and will not be as quick to pass judgment.

Research is certainly an important skill but for a future clinician, I think that being able to work with people who come from different walks of life and being able to put yourself in their shoes -- is just as essential.

Kind Regards,

Compassionate1

 

[hereandnow]

*Prestige is important in certain environments, but by and large not in others.

*In academics, prestige holds weight. If you want an academic career at a prestigious institution, look for a prestigious program.

*In private practice, however, frankly, imho, prestige doesn't mean squat. At least not over the long haul. Either you are a good clinician and will retain clients and generate referrals or you will not.

*The more mobile you plan to be, the more important prestige is. However, if you are planning to stay in the area, proximity and relationships are far more important to your future practice.

*Additionally, accreditation is particularly important if you want to move out of state. I have friends who have degrees from a non-accredited, but "only" APA approved schools. They cannot practice out of state -- at least not without some major hassles.

*However, they are happily and successfully practicing within the state. And they have flourshing practices.

So your prospects of future mobility might also weigh into your considerations.

*If you want salaried position at the institution at which you already work and teach, I recommend you going to that institution -- especially if they are giving you a free ride, and especially **if they have a record of hiring from within.** Some places are like that, some places are not.

Best of luck.

 

[compassionate1]

Hi Hereandnow,

Sorry for the delay in responding.

I would like to thank you for your balanced as well as realistic advice.

Although I was promised a promotion at my current workplace -- due to the current economic climate, I would not count on it with closed eyes. Besides -- I would like to keep all my options open.

I was not aware of the issue with location and am unsure that I would want to stay in NY in the long run; so this too is a consideration. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

Kind regards,

Compassionate1

PS I am currently reading Yalom's "Staring At The Sun" and have just read today a section about the "here and now" in therapy and how this is a defining feature which makes therapy essentially different than speaking with friends. As i teach Group Dynamics, I have a keen interest in process observations but somehow that way Yalom phrased it, albeit seemingly simplistically, was quite illuminating.