Your worst bounceback cases

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prolene60

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Do any of you have any bounceback cases that you will always remember or learned something from?
One of mine was a bounceback several years ago which was a 50’ish old lady with radicular neck pain for a few days. She said because she was limping from the gout in her toe that her PCP diagnosed earlier (later found out clinically). she was tilting her head forward to continuously gauge not stepping the wrong way. No fevers, IVDU, headache, dissection signs, weakness etc. I ended up CT’ing her(not sure why) which was negative. neuro exam was good. gave her some meds and ensured outpatient follow-up with return precautions. Came back a couple days later still in pain. one of my partners saw with benign exam, modified medication regimen and i think added some steroids. sent home. came back a couple days later and this time obviously admitted. Had MRI of the c-spine which showed some diskitis and osteo. During the hospitalization the "gout" was discovered after needle aspiration to be a septic toe which seeded to her neck. Luckily she was eventually discharged without long term sequelae or need for any rehab etc. i learned to never ever trust any diagnosis that a patient tells you that comes from out of hospital provider unless you can confirm the methods that came to that diagnosis. Obviously i dont go down the list of everyone's medical problems and ask how they were diagnosed, Im only referring to something thats part of the case or presentation.
 
I had a 15 year old girl with Hodgkin lymphoma on chemo who came in with a very un-impressive headache without any red flag features. Dull, achy, frontal, 2-3 days, without N/V, fever, chills, anything. I was totally fishing for something in the HPI that would give me an excuse to antibiotics and tap/admit. Spidey senses felt off.

Labs totally normal.

Gave a little headache cocktail (like IV Tylenol, reglan, Benadryl). Talked with her oncologist who would see her in the office the next morning. Didn’t tap her.

She felt better and went home.

Came back 48 H later seizing, posturing, with florid bacterial meningitis. Spent a long time in PICU and never really fully recovered.

I think about the case often, I don’t think I would have done anything differently, with the information I had and don’t think I did anything “wrong.” But I always wonder if maybe I had asked the questions in a different way or something I could have elicited something meaningful on her history that would have taken her down the LP/abx/admit pathway.
 
17 year old overweight kid came into the ER for chest pain that started after school around 5pm during my shift one evening. EKG WNL, HR in 80s, no risk factors, not on meds, no family history. This was at the academic center I used to work at, things move slow, his stay had to have been atleast 2-3 hours just for the xray/blood work and ekg + waiting room time. Cleared him for dc and he walked out w mother and sibling just fine.

He went to go eat food with this family and EMS was called to taco bell. They called report and noted his demographics and that he was just dc for chest pain. Came back with systolic in 70s and HR in the 130s. US fellow came to US his heart and he had severe right heart strain. He was given IV TPA and survived.

Case happened around 5-6 years ago but I still think about it often. No risk factors, PERC neg, Wells neg. No dimer was done during initial visit. He was overweight but not severe. Glad he called EMS when he did as he was able to be saved.
 
I had a lady in her 70’s that came in with mild dull abdominal pain, and complaining of constipation. Exam fairly benign. I just did a KUB, which showed abundant stool in colon. Discharged with Rx for miralax or something similar.

Came back 2 days later with persistent/continuing pain. CT was done showing a ruptured AAA, but the hematoma had encapsulated and basically was tamponading the aneurysm, which is why she survived for 2 days. She went to surgery and did ok.

Lesson learned- anybody over 60 with belly pain gets scanned. Utilization statistics and throughput be damned.
 
I had a young guy with nstemi who wouldn’t be admitted and left AMA. He bounced back dead. Got a call from nursing supervisor about how great and detailed my AMA note was. I learned to always write good AMA notes.
 
I had a lady in her 70’s that came in with mild dull abdominal pain, and complaining of constipation. Exam fairly benign. I just did a KUB, which showed abundant stool in colon. Discharged with Rx for miralax or something similar.

Came back 2 days later with persistent/continuing pain. CT was done showing a ruptured AAA, but the hematoma had encapsulated and basically was tamponading the aneurysm, which is why she survived for 2 days. She went to surgery and did ok.

Lesson learned- anybody over 60 with belly pain gets scanned. Utilization statistics and throughput be damned.
There’s actual evidence based literature (and a great lecture by Amal Mattu) that shows you should scan every elderly patient with abdominal pain. So just tell people you’re doing evidence based medicine.
 
I sent a spontaneous PTX home with a (wrongful) diagnosis of the common cold. Whoops. My bad.
 
45 yr M, chest pain, left side, comes and goes, no known trigger, been happening for 3 weeks, not currently felt, no radiation, heart score 3, perc negative, neg trop and ekg, wanted to go home, cardiac arrest next day and dead.

His life was worth $550,000.
 
45 yr M, chest pain, left side, comes and goes, no known trigger, been happening for 3 weeks, not currently felt, no radiation, heart score 3, perc negative, neg trop and ekg, wanted to go home, cardiac arrest next day and dead.

His life was worth $550,000.
Man, I lucked out with mine. Radiology over-read saved the day.
 
I had a lady in her 70’s that came in with mild dull abdominal pain, and complaining of constipation. Exam fairly benign. I just did a KUB, which showed abundant stool in colon. Discharged with Rx for miralax or something similar.

Came back 2 days later with persistent/continuing pain. CT was done showing a ruptured AAA, but the hematoma had encapsulated and basically was tamponading the aneurysm, which is why she survived for 2 days. She went to surgery and did ok.

Lesson learned- anybody over 60 with belly pain gets scanned. Utilization statistics and throughput be damned.

I think I learned this on day 2 of residency.
 
45 yr M, chest pain, left side, comes and goes, no known trigger, been happening for 3 weeks, not currently felt, no radiation, heart score 3, perc negative, neg trop and ekg, wanted to go home, cardiac arrest next day and dead.

His life was worth $550,000.

Goes to show that the only thing that matters is outcomes.
 
Yeahhhh I was gonna say...how do you not CT this?
A combination of factors- She was really emphasizing the constipation more than anything (constipation was the chief complaint). Exam was not impressive. Throughput pressures. Id been out of residency 7 or 8 years and in that “Are you feeling lucky, punk?” Stage of my career. The Xray confirmed my anchoring bias.

I don’t know- 9 days out of 10, I probably would have scanned her. That day I didn’t. I got lucky.
 
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I was a new PGY2 and a lady came in for chest pain. White, 50s, not many risk factors. She had an abnormal EKG. Inverted T waves in lateral precordial leads and inferior leads. Vitals were normal. Cardiac work up was negative. Chest pain free. I don't think she had any risk factors for VTE. PERC neg. I'm talking the case over with attending. We discharge. She arrests later that night and dies. I was horribly upset and met with attending who did their best to calm me down and gave me some good advice and shared similar cases during their career. I don't think there was any autopsy but I've always suspected PE for some reason. (Though I suppose it could have been cardiac or any number of things.) I never forgot the pattern and I have never discharged anything similar. In fact, almost all similar patterns get a CTA. Honestly, I really didn't know enough at the time to be able to realize what an abnormal EKG that was in hindsight. I don't think I would ever discharge anything like that as an attending regardless of work up. I carried that one around for a long time during residency. I never really knew any additional details about the arrest.

Another one that sticks out was predictable. Old stubborn patient with his son. He kept going into short runs of VT. I begged and pleaded this guy to let me admit him but he refused. I pleaded with his son who left it up to his dad. I told the pt that if he didn't come into the hospital, I'd see him again tomorrow as a cardiac arrest....if he made it that long. He scoffed, signed the AMA. I took immaculate care in documenting the AMA and note. Sure enough, he comes back in as an arrest the very next day and died.

Some advice to some of the newer docs would be to run a 3-5d bounce back report in your EMR each month. I've done that my entire career. It's pretty easy in Cerner and also in Epic. If you have problems, just call one of the data administrators and they should be able to get you access to it or set it up for you. It's not as eye opening as you'd think as most of the bounce backs are stupid but occasionally it can be informative.
 
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Some advice to some of the newer docs would be to run a 3-5d bounce back report in your EMR each month. I've done that my entire career. It's pretty easy in Cerner and also in Epic. If you have problems, just call one of the data administrators and they should be able to get you access to it or set it up for you. It's not as eye opening as you'd think as most of the bounce backs are stupid but occasionally it can be informative.
We do this every month during our dept meeting. All 72 hours bouncebacks get reviewed as well as a review of all patients we admit to the floor who subsequently bounce to the ICU within 24 hours. Definitely useful.
 
Goes to show that the only thing that matters is outcomes.

Father of one, kid’s mother died from opioid over dose, kid lives with father’s ex girlfriend who is the official caretaker, kid gets diagnosed with some pediatric cancer 2 months after dad dies, ex girlfriend becomes executor of estate, I am just a faceless name on discharge paperwork who “killed dad,” ex girlfriend scratches off her lottery ticket (me), my medical malpractice carrier could care less about my NPDB history, some insurance dude calculates it is cheaper to settle than fight, that dude tells me to settle for this number or I am on my own and have to defend myself (drop coverage), I look at my wife and kids, I calculate it is cheaper to settle, I am forced to sign two pieces of paper, patient’s kid and I guess ex girlfriend get a big check in the mail after Morgan and Morgan get their fee, I keep seeing new patients and pay into medical malpractice insurance - the cycle continues

Is this how the system is suppose to work?
 
Father of one, kid’s mother died from opioid over dose, kid lives with father’s ex girlfriend who is the official caretaker, kid gets diagnosed with some pediatric cancer 2 months after dad dies, ex girlfriend becomes executor of estate, I am just a faceless name on discharge paperwork who “killed dad,” ex girlfriend scratches off her lottery ticket (me), my medical malpractice carrier could care less about my NPDB history, some insurance dude calculates it is cheaper to settle than fight, that dude tells me to settle for this number or I am on my own and have to defend myself (drop coverage), I look at my wife and kids, I calculate it is cheaper to settle, I am forced to sign two pieces of paper, patient’s kid and I guess ex girlfriend get a big check in the mail after Morgan and Morgan get their fee, I keep seeing new patients and pay into medical malpractice insurance - the cycle continues

Is this how the system is suppose to work?

I’m curious what else you were supposed to do in this case.

What hospitalist is going to want to admit some guy with vague intermittent chest pain, no pain at the time of eval, normal trop and EKG…and what else would they have done with it? Who is going to urgently cath such a patient?

What was the cause of death?
 
Confused. Are you implying that you had to pay some amount of the settlement beyond policy limits?
No, unknown to me at the time, my medical malpractice insurance from my CMG did not have a “consent to settle” clause. Most CMG med mal does not have this because it is cheaper.

I had two options- 1) take insurance’s decision to settle or 2) don’t take insurance’s decision to settle and I have to foot the bill for defense/any judgement.
 
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I’m curious what else you were supposed to do in this case.

What hospitalist is going to want to admit some guy with vague intermittent chest pain, no pain at the time of eval, normal trop and EKG…and what else would they have done with it? Who is going to urgently cath such a patient?

What was the cause of death?
No autopsy performed. Doesn’t matter. No jury is going to leave an orphan with this story with nothing (bad state/county for med mal). This is why it was just $550,000 and not potentially more.

At least this is what my lawyer told me.
 
A combination of factors- She was really emphasizing the constipation more than anything (constipation was the chief complaint). Exam was not impressive. Throughput pressures. Id been out of residency 7 or 8 years and in that “Are you feeling lucky, punk?” Stage of my career. The Xray confirmed my anchoring bias.

I don’t know- 9 days out of 10, I probably would have scanned her. That day I didn’t. I got lucky.

Totally been there.
 
I had a patient present with complaints of a cough. He said that his sister made him come. He denied any other symptoms. No CP, SOB, Abd pain, N, V, etc. Vitals were normal. Not tachy or hypotensive. Discharged home with negative CXR. Comes back in cardiac arrest the next morning. They got ROSC for a couple minutes and sent bloodwork. Hgb was in the 4's... Ended being pronounced in the ED. I got QI'd for not sending blood work the day before...
 
I had a patient present with complaints of a cough. He said that his sister made him come. He denied any other symptoms. No CP, SOB, Abd pain, N, V, etc. Vitals were normal. Not tachy or hypotensive. Discharged home with negative CXR. Comes back in cardiac arrest the next morning. They got ROSC for a couple minutes and sent bloodwork. Hgb was in the 4's... Ended being pronounced in the ED. I got QI'd for not sending blood work the day before...
Terrible reason to QI someone. Everyone expects 48 hrs of immortality after an ER visit. They also expect 10% CT utilization. God bless America.
 
Terrible reason to QI someone. Everyone expects 48 hrs of immortality after an ER visit. They also expect 10% CT utilization. God bless America.
I had a patient on chemo come in with presyncope and a bump on the noggin, tells me she doesn't want anything other than IV fluids because she's dehydrated and this has happened multiple times.

I rehydrate her, she feels better and goes home.

I get hit with peer review when she bounces back in 24 hours with hyponatremia and gets admitted. In response to the review, I refer the committee back to note in which I clearly say that I recommended imaging and labs but the patient didn't want them. I honestly don't know why they even sent it to me.
 
Not really a bounce back as much as a "last minute discovery" that changed the whole outcome and likely kept me out of a lawsuit.

Old demented woman being taken care of by her two daughters. She's deeply Alzheimer's demented and essentially communicating by grunts and facial expressions that the daughters seem to understand. These two daughters were deeply invested in every tiny detail of mom's life and were bombarding me with every minute bit of information about every minute of her last few days, none of it overly relevant to the only state of complaint they could come up with "Mom's just not eating". The reality is they could describe the exact consistency of her last 10 bowel movements and the exact frequency of her multi year dry cough, but could not identify one single change in her in any way except for a loss of appetite for 24ish hours. And even then, she was drinking plenty, she just wasn't eating solid food suddenly.

They say she's demented as all get up but she always has an appetite. Nothing ever makes her not hungry. Ever. I do all the usual nonspecific workup. Negative. They are unhappy. I get urine and scan the belly. Negative. They are unhappy. I do an EKG for **** and giggles and it's stone cold normal. I try to discharge. They protest that I haven't tried to feed her. I am.... Not.... Going to sit around and try to feed a demented woman. I do a double check of the oropharynx and it looks fine and she's clearing secretions. **** it. I'll just admit for failure to thrive and let this be inpatient teams problem.

Inpatient team being the Inpatient team orders a bunch of **** that is fully unnecessary like dimer and troponin. Dimer negative. Duh. Trop.... Trop is....

Trop is 90. Not high sensitivity. Standard. 90.

The f***? I repeat the EKG and it's completely normal. I repeat the troponin because it must be some sort of lab error and my own curiosity is killing me and now is 110. I let the cardiologist know about this whacky NSTEMI and they say (at 2am) "that sounds incompatible with life. If shes still alive when I get to the hospital at 7:00 a.m., I'll cath her then" then hangs up on me.

I forget if she made it to Cath or not. I remember that she died on the floor, but I can't recall if it was within a few hours or a day or two later.
 
64 yo M hx of HTN, chronic back pain, prior kidney stones, shows up to my rural FSED for lower back/bilateral flank pain, diarrhea, abdominal discomfort for the last 3 days. His VS are HR 54, BP 165/100, everything else normal. The patient had been there an hour before I arrived, CT abd/pelvis non-con and basic labs and UA were ordered prior to me arriving. CT comes back unremarkable. Labs are only remarkable for a Cr of 1.6, no prior for comparison. The patient is still looking uncomfortable. I palpate the paraspinal muscles along his lumbar spine where he states he’s tender which elicits some pain. I diagnose him with suspected lumbosacral strain and discharge him with a rx for some muscle relaxers and diclofenac.

I get a call from the local PD an hour later informing me the patient died. The wife had went to the pharmacy to go pick up his meds and when she returned she found him on the floor of their home dead. The wife then called a few minutes later to let the charge nurse know that I my “diagnosis was wrong”. Took a 30 minute break to compose myself while I called some buddies from residency to talk through it. Intermittently cried the remainder of the shift, and still haunts me 5 years later.

I had a friend who worked at the medical examiner’s office. His autopsy demonstrated a ruptured thoracic aortic aneurysm.

I know the patient would have died even if I had sent him back for a CTA given we were an hour away from the nearest facility and it was always incredibly time consuming to get an accepting facility for aortic pathology, but the wife’s call is what still hurts me the most.

Never made the mistake again of doing a CT and/pelvis non-con on an elderly patient with back pain. Everyone over the age of 50 gets contrast, I don’t care what their creatinine is or reported allergy, regardless of whether I’m 99% sure it’s a kidney stone.
 
Not really a bounce back as much as a "last minute discovery" that changed the whole outcome and likely kept me out of a lawsuit.

Old demented woman being taken care of by her two daughters. She's deeply Alzheimer's demented and essentially communicating by grunts and facial expressions that the daughters seem to understand. These two daughters were deeply invested in every tiny detail of mom's life and were bombarding me with every minute bit of information about every minute of her last few days, none of it overly relevant to the only state of complaint they could come up with "Mom's just not eating". The reality is they could describe the exact consistency of her last 10 bowel movements and the exact frequency of her multi year dry cough, but could not identify one single change in her in any way except for a loss of appetite for 24ish hours. And even then, she was drinking plenty, she just wasn't eating solid food suddenly.

They say she's demented as all get up but she always has an appetite. Nothing ever makes her not hungry. Ever. I do all the usual nonspecific workup. Negative. They are unhappy. I get urine and scan the belly. Negative. They are unhappy. I do an EKG for **** and giggles and it's stone cold normal. I try to discharge. They protest that I haven't tried to feed her. I am.... Not.... Going to sit around and try to feed a demented woman. I do a double check of the oropharynx and it looks fine and she's clearing secretions. **** it. I'll just admit for failure to thrive and let this be inpatient teams problem.

Inpatient team being the Inpatient team orders a bunch of **** that is fully unnecessary like dimer and troponin. Dimer negative. Duh. Trop.... Trop is....

Trop is 90. Not high sensitivity. Standard. 90.

The f***? I repeat the EKG and it's completely normal. I repeat the troponin because it must be some sort of lab error and my own curiosity is killing me and now is 110. I let the cardiologist know about this whacky NSTEMI and they say (at 2am) "that sounds incompatible with life. If shes still alive when I get to the hospital at 7:00 a.m., I'll cath her then" then hangs up on me.

I forget if she made it to Cath or not. I remember that she died on the floor, but I can't recall if it was within a few hours or a day or two later.

This is valuable, I routinely get trops on any old person with nausea, sob etc. Earlier in my career I'd worry about IM or cards complaining that I got an abnormal trop when there was no indication to order one. Who cares.

64 yo M hx of HTN, chronic back pain, prior kidney stones, shows up to my rural FSED for lower back/bilateral flank pain, diarrhea, abdominal discomfort for the last 3 days. His VS are HR 54, BP 165/100, everything else normal. The patient had been there an hour before I arrived, CT abd/pelvis non-con and basic labs and UA were ordered prior to me arriving. CT comes back unremarkable. Labs are only remarkable for a Cr of 1.6, no prior for comparison. The patient is still looking uncomfortable. I palpate the paraspinal muscles along his lumbar spine where he states he’s tender which elicits some pain. I diagnose him with suspected lumbosacral strain and discharge him with a rx for some muscle relaxers and diclofenac.

I get a call from the local PD an hour later informing me the patient died. The wife had went to the pharmacy to go pick up his meds and when she returned she found him on the floor of their home dead. The wife then called a few minutes later to let the charge nurse know that I my “diagnosis was wrong”. Took a 30 minute break to compose myself while I called some buddies from residency to talk through it. Intermittently cried the remainder of the shift, and still haunts me 5 years later.

I had a friend who worked at the medical examiner’s office. His autopsy demonstrated a ruptured thoracic aortic aneurysm.

I know the patient would have died even if I had sent him back for a CTA given we were an hour away from the nearest facility and it was always incredibly time consuming to get an accepting facility for aortic pathology, but the wife’s call is what still hurts me the most.

Never made the mistake again of doing a CT and/pelvis non-con on an elderly patient with back pain. Everyone over the age of 50 gets contrast, I don’t care what their creatinine is or reported allergy, regardless of whether I’m 99% sure it’s a kidney stone.

Tough case, I'm sorry. I've been there, sent someone home and they died immediately after discharge. Older patient but still.

Long story short, I had an patient in his 60s or 70s, retired oil exec with the usual health problems who came in with some upper back pain. Sort of MSK but he just wasn't the type to come to the ER. Very stoic, laconic, like pulling teeth to get the history but his wife seemed very worried and he finally told me "I felt like I was going to die earlier." Which we hear a lot but he seemed sincere and not crazy. I kept digging and digging and finally just did dissection cta and he had a pinhole thoracic dissection. Rads doc said "I have no idea how you picked this up." Guy did fine.

When I was new I used to agonize over ordering too many tests, too much imaging etc etc. becuase they drilled that in our heads in residency. IDC anymore. Nobody cares about tests unless the patient has a bad outcome and then you never did enough. Don't be 3 standard deviations above the mean and I don't CT everyone but you have to protect yourself. I've done this 17 years now and the stroke creep, the sepsis creep just gets worse every year. We order more tests than ever in the ER and there is no going back, you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Americans want 100% accuracy 100% of the time, it's not reasonable but here we are. Admin wants you never to miss anything but also don't order too much and oh for sepsis and stroke order all the things. It's insane. My older attendings would smack our hands and say why are you ordering that test? Those days are long gone. Google reviews, lawsuits, social media etc just make it too risky not to investigate things and document well.

For newer docs order tests, order imaging, sit down and listen to the patient and the family. I've been sitting a lot more lately, taking time with patients and family no matter how busy the ER is. IDGAF if I'm the only doc on duty and 10 are waiting, it's the hospital's job to have safe staffing, not mine.
 
For a lot of these cases, no reasonable ER doc is going to make these diagnoses. That being said, I agree with test heavy strategy.
 
64 yo M hx of HTN, chronic back pain, prior kidney stones, shows up to my rural FSED for lower back/bilateral flank pain, diarrhea, abdominal discomfort for the last 3 days. His VS are HR 54, BP 165/100, everything else normal. The patient had been there an hour before I arrived, CT abd/pelvis non-con and basic labs and UA were ordered prior to me arriving. CT comes back unremarkable. Labs are only remarkable for a Cr of 1.6, no prior for comparison. The patient is still looking uncomfortable. I palpate the paraspinal muscles along his lumbar spine where he states he’s tender which elicits some pain. I diagnose him with suspected lumbosacral strain and discharge him with a rx for some muscle relaxers and diclofenac.

I get a call from the local PD an hour later informing me the patient died. The wife had went to the pharmacy to go pick up his meds and when she returned she found him on the floor of their home dead. The wife then called a few minutes later to let the charge nurse know that I my “diagnosis was wrong”. Took a 30 minute break to compose myself while I called some buddies from residency to talk through it. Intermittently cried the remainder of the shift, and still haunts me 5 years later.

I had a friend who worked at the medical examiner’s office. His autopsy demonstrated a ruptured thoracic aortic aneurysm.

I know the patient would have died even if I had sent him back for a CTA given we were an hour away from the nearest facility and it was always incredibly time consuming to get an accepting facility for aortic pathology, but the wife’s call is what still hurts me the most.

Never made the mistake again of doing a CT and/pelvis non-con on an elderly patient with back pain. Everyone over the age of 50 gets contrast, I don’t care what their creatinine is or reported allergy, regardless of whether I’m 99% sure it’s a kidney stone.
Man that is a tough one. I most likely would have done the same thing you did. No chest pain or upper back pain?
 
I had a patient on chemo come in with presyncope and a bump on the noggin, tells me she doesn't want anything other than IV fluids because she's dehydrated and this has happened multiple times.

I rehydrate her, she feels better and goes home.

I get hit with peer review when she bounces back in 24 hours with hyponatremia and gets admitted. In response to the review, I refer the committee back to note in which I clearly say that I recommended imaging and labs but the patient didn't want them. I honestly don't know why they even sent it to me.

If I ever got peer reviewed for something like this I would be quitting. Not even a question. See ya. The beauty of locums.
 
No autopsy performed. Doesn’t matter. No jury is going to leave an orphan with this story with nothing (bad state/county for med mal). This is why it was just $550,000 and not potentially more.

At least this is what my lawyer told me.

I mean we all discharge this case all day long every day. Low HEART, low risk EDACS, perc negative etc.

Malpractice is based on standard of care. There is no reason to admit him. There’s acceptable MACE of 1.8%.

Some people are going to die no matter what we do. I would have fought that case easily.
 
Some people are going to die no matter what we do. I would have fought that case easily.
I've said this for about 30 years now. "No matter what you do, some people are going to die. And, no matter what you do, some people are going to live."
 
I mean we all discharge this case all day long every day. Low HEART, low risk EDACS, perc negative etc.

Malpractice is based on standard of care. There is no reason to admit him. There’s acceptable MACE of 1.8%.

Some people are going to die no matter what we do. I would have fought that case easily.
I wish you would have been my insurance dude.

Malpractice is also based on heart of a jury and risk tolerance of an insurer.
 
Some people are going to die no matter what we do. I would have fought that case easily.
Yeah, I had that mentality until I saw people losing those fights in court.

Remember, malpractice suits aren't about doing something right or wrong medically. They're about whether or not some lawyer thinks that their client is sympathetic enough that they can convince twelve random idiots that your insurance company should pay a bunch of money.

In the immortal words of Jean-Luc Picard: It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.
 
Yeah, I had that mentality until I saw people losing those fights in court.

Remember, malpractice suits aren't about doing something right or wrong medically. They're about whether or not some lawyer thinks that their client is sympathetic enough that they can convince twelve random idiots that your insurance company should pay a bunch of money.

In the immortal words of Jean-Luc Picard: It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.
And that's also why 5/6 cases that do go to trial are found in favor of the doctor.
 
If I ever got peer reviewed for something like this I would be quitting. Not even a question. See ya. The beauty of locums.
The hospitalist put in the peer review for ED bounce back admit with no workup done on initial evaluation. Again, idk why they didn't just read my note and realize pt didn't want a workup.
 
For a lot of these cases, no reasonable ER doc is going to make these diagnoses. That being said, I agree with test heavy strategy.

My thoughts too. I sound increasingly fatalistic as time in the pit adds up, but I think it’s only reasonable to think this way. As has been said, a perfect batting average is impossible.
 
Yeah, I had that mentality until I saw people losing those fights in court.

Remember, malpractice suits aren't about doing something right or wrong medically. They're about whether or not some lawyer thinks that their client is sympathetic enough that they can convince twelve random idiots that your insurance company should pay a bunch of money.

In the immortal words of Jean-Luc Picard: It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.

The one weird phenomenon I’ve seen with malpractice suits is this…somehow there seem to be a number of really crappy doctors out there who never get sued (or at least don’t get sued any more often than their more competent colleagues), but then there are actual *good* docs who get sued over the stupidest things (sometimes frequently).

Why is this? Is it that the crappy docs are also usually very likable personally (this seems to be at least part of the explanation)? Or what else is going on?
 
Why is this? Is it that the crappy docs are also usually very likable personally (this seems to be at least part of the explanation)? Or what else is going on?
That def is a part, I think. There was a woman with whom I worked in the past. She wasn't EM. She was IM-CC trained. She screwed up more than average, and, was late often. The wrist thing I recall was her reducing a distal radius/ulna fracture. She reduced it backwards - radius to ulna, and ulna to radius. Ortho was LIVID, and rightfully so, if I may say. But, the pts f'n LOVED her. Just LOVED her. So, no suits.
 
That def is a part, I think. There was a woman with whom I worked in the past. She wasn't EM. She was IM-CC trained. She screwed up more than average, and, was late often. The wrist thing I recall was her reducing a distal radius/ulna fracture. She reduced it backwards - radius to ulna, and ulna to radius. Ortho was LIVID, and rightfully so, if I may say. But, the pts f'n LOVED her. Just LOVED her. So, no suits.
What? I mean, I understand what you're saying but even if the wrist is totally shattered, this seems like it would be exceedingly difficult to do deliberately, let alone accidentally.
 
What? I mean, I understand what you're saying but even if the wrist is totally shattered, this seems like it would be exceedingly difficult to do deliberately, let alone accidentally.
That's what I mean - BIG mistake. Like, NOT one we would make.
 
Not really a bounce back as much as a "last minute discovery" that changed the whole outcome and likely kept me out of a lawsuit.

Old demented woman being taken care of by her two daughters. She's deeply Alzheimer's demented and essentially communicating by grunts and facial expressions that the daughters seem to understand. These two daughters were deeply invested in every tiny detail of mom's life and were bombarding me with every minute bit of information about every minute of her last few days, none of it overly relevant to the only state of complaint they could come up with "Mom's just not eating". The reality is they could describe the exact consistency of her last 10 bowel movements and the exact frequency of her multi year dry cough, but could not identify one single change in her in any way except for a loss of appetite for 24ish hours. And even then, she was drinking plenty, she just wasn't eating solid food suddenly.

They say she's demented as all get up but she always has an appetite. Nothing ever makes her not hungry. Ever. I do all the usual nonspecific workup. Negative. They are unhappy. I get urine and scan the belly. Negative. They are unhappy. I do an EKG for **** and giggles and it's stone cold normal. I try to discharge. They protest that I haven't tried to feed her. I am.... Not.... Going to sit around and try to feed a demented woman. I do a double check of the oropharynx and it looks fine and she's clearing secretions. **** it. I'll just admit for failure to thrive and let this be inpatient teams problem.

Inpatient team being the Inpatient team orders a bunch of **** that is fully unnecessary like dimer and troponin. Dimer negative. Duh. Trop.... Trop is....

Trop is 90. Not high sensitivity. Standard. 90.

The f***? I repeat the EKG and it's completely normal. I repeat the troponin because it must be some sort of lab error and my own curiosity is killing me and now is 110. I let the cardiologist know about this whacky NSTEMI and they say (at 2am) "that sounds incompatible with life. If shes still alive when I get to the hospital at 7:00 a.m., I'll cath her then" then hangs up on me.

I forget if she made it to Cath or not. I remember that she died on the floor, but I can't recall if it was within a few hours or a day or two later.
I'm surprised your cardiologist even entertained cathing this person. This is actually one of the cases where the right thing to do is absolutely nothing.
 
That def is a part, I think. There was a woman with whom I worked in the past. She wasn't EM. She was IM-CC trained. She screwed up more than average, and, was late often. The wrist thing I recall was her reducing a distal radius/ulna fracture. She reduced it backwards - radius to ulna, and ulna to radius. Ortho was LIVID, and rightfully so, if I may say. But, the pts f'n LOVED her. Just LOVED her. So, no suits.
How the ****
 
Not really a bounce back as much as a "last minute discovery" that changed the whole outcome and likely kept me out of a lawsuit.

Old demented woman being taken care of by her two daughters. She's deeply Alzheimer's demented and essentially communicating by grunts and facial expressions that the daughters seem to understand. These two daughters were deeply invested in every tiny detail of mom's life and were bombarding me with every minute bit of information about every minute of her last few days, none of it overly relevant to the only state of complaint they could come up with "Mom's just not eating". The reality is they could describe the exact consistency of her last 10 bowel movements and the exact frequency of her multi year dry cough, but could not identify one single change in her in any way except for a loss of appetite for 24ish hours. And even then, she was drinking plenty, she just wasn't eating solid food suddenly.

They say she's demented as all get up but she always has an appetite. Nothing ever makes her not hungry. Ever. I do all the usual nonspecific workup. Negative. They are unhappy. I get urine and scan the belly. Negative. They are unhappy. I do an EKG for **** and giggles and it's stone cold normal. I try to discharge. They protest that I haven't tried to feed her. I am.... Not.... Going to sit around and try to feed a demented woman. I do a double check of the oropharynx and it looks fine and she's clearing secretions. **** it. I'll just admit for failure to thrive and let this be inpatient teams problem.

Inpatient team being the Inpatient team orders a bunch of **** that is fully unnecessary like dimer and troponin. Dimer negative. Duh. Trop.... Trop is....

Trop is 90. Not high sensitivity. Standard. 90.

The f***? I repeat the EKG and it's completely normal. I repeat the troponin because it must be some sort of lab error and my own curiosity is killing me and now is 110. I let the cardiologist know about this whacky NSTEMI and they say (at 2am) "that sounds incompatible with life. If shes still alive when I get to the hospital at 7:00 a.m., I'll cath her then" then hangs up on me.

I forget if she made it to Cath or not. I remember that she died on the floor, but I can't recall if it was within a few hours or a day or two later.
Well holy damn. You cath patients demented to the point of mutism, and presumably get sued if you don't? How do you even limit the scope of work-up then - like what if her Trop was normal? Surely there would be a myriad of "treatable" causes that could her reduce her appetite or make her grunt less. Only in 'Murica with 2 daughters I guess.
 
Well holy damn. You cath patients demented to the point of mutism, and presumably get sued if you don't? How do you even limit the scope of work-up then - like what if her Trop was normal? Surely there would be a myriad of "treatable" causes that could her reduce her appetite or make her grunt less. Only in 'Murica with 2 daughters I guess.

I was sued for an 80 year old female who collected diseases like kids collect Pokemon cards.
There's is no upper limit of age/comorbidity combination that won't get you sued.
 
Well holy damn. You cath patients demented to the point of mutism, and presumably get sued if you don't? How do you even limit the scope of work-up then - like what if her Trop was normal? Surely there would be a myriad of "treatable" causes that could her reduce her appetite or make her grunt less. Only in 'Murica with 2 daughters I guess.
I can tell you would even scarier story ironically from the same site about how a third of my ER got quietly shuffled out to other jobs over a single case where the ER was the only people who did the right thing, but only patient/family perception matters.

Old woman comes in and registers as anxiety. On a superficial level, she does look very anxious and says that she used up the last of her Ativan this morning, but she still feels super anxious and needs an immediate IV injection as well as meter refill 30 days worth of it. I tell her that I'm happy to address the anxiety, but I'm not going to refill 30 days of it. She begins screaming and having a fit. I tell her that we're more than happy to start some ad event, but I just want to get blood work and EKG done first because she looks almost a little too sweaty for it to just be anxiety. That I think she might be having a cardiac event. She curses me out that I'm just trying to judge her and that she's not an addict and then I'm just playing games with her to not give her the Ativan. I document all of this conversation.

She elopes from the ER. Within a minute or two of that conversation

About 20 minutes later she checks back in and registers as medication refill. Sees my partner. I point out that sprinted out last time. Partner reorders all my same Labs except he orders an Ativan bolus immediately. She gets the Ativan and gets her blood drawn and gets her EKG. EKG is grossly ischemic. No infarct, but definitely ischemic. She's demanding more Ativan saying that the first dose didn't do s***. My partner attempts to explain to her that he thinks she's having a heart attack. She says that he went to a clown college and that everyone here is judging her and elopes.

We call the family and let them know that we think she's having a heart attack and that she's probably on her way home. We called the police and let them know that an old woman who just got a big bolus of Ativan is probably skidding all over the road right now.

About 2 hours later, the family brings her in and she sees a third ER doctor as the shift change has occurred. She gets an absolute metric ton of Ativan and gets admitted for an NSTEMI as that was the ultimate diagnosis and trops kept rising. And in fact, a repeat EKG shows less ischemia than the first one.

She gets admitted. Spends 2 days upstairs before they finally decide to do the cath. The cath is reported as being completely clean (never did figure out why she was having the NSTEMI) but she ends up having a respiratory arrest during the cath. Apparently she was so difficult to keep calm for the cath that the head of anesthesia had to be involved in order to give significant amounts of sedation during the procedure and she became apneic. I won't point fingers cause don't know what actually happened, but the rumor within in the facility is that everyone sort of agreed that she wasn't a good candidate to do a cath and her trops were going down so no one really wanted to do it but the family kept pushing for it and maybe they knew someone. So the head of hospitalists medically cleared her. And the head of anesthesiology sedated her. And the head of cardiology did the cath. And she died during a probably unnecessary Cath.

So what was the outcome? All the family remembered is the wonderful inpatient team said she can get all the Ativan she wanted while the last thing mom said before she got admitted (after the second elopement) was how horrible the ER was to not give her enough Ativan. The three of us get brought to risk management who, honestly, doesn't know why any of us are there and tells us not to worry. But by a month later, the reality is that the CMO is pulling us off of shifts constantly to 2nd, 3rd and 4th guess are management of tons of bread and butter cases. Then we all end up on improvement plans. Eventually, our director tells us that he decided to finally ask what the hell was going on and it turns out that the family has made it abundantly clear that they will not sue if the ER doctors take the fall and the hospital can't find a way to get us to leave but doesn't want to fire us per se for legal exposure of their own ass reasons.

The world is a wonderfully backwards place
 
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