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got to love this cartoon...
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toughlife said:
What a completely ridiculous website. Are these people serious? Good to see that nurses are focused on the important stuff
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Hey, everyone's gotta stick up for their rights! My favorite, from
http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/faq/nf/physician_vs_doctor.html
Should we refer to physicians as "doctors?"
The media, like most people, often uses the term "doctor" to mean "physician." Although this usage is deeply ingrained, it gives many people the impression that physicians are the only health care workers who can earn doctoral degrees.
In fact, nurses and other health care professionals can and do earn doctorates. The use of the term "doctor" to mean "physician" also adds to what some feel is the excessively high regard the medical profession enjoys relative to other health care professions.
Medicine is a vital field, but some feel that placing it far above other equally important health professions obstructs patient care, health care reform, and of course the other professions. Many feel that this is an important factor in the nursing shortage.
In particular, if parents and teachers do not realize that nurses can earn Ph.D.'s in nursing and contribute at the doctoral level, it is less likely that they will encourage their best and brightest students to enter the field.
We urge everyone not to use the term "doctor" when "physician" is meant. In addition, if any health care worker is to be honored with the special title "Doctor" (as in "Dr. Smith"), we recommend that the title be used for all health care workers with doctorates, including nurses.
http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/faq/nf/physician_vs_doctor.html
Should we refer to physicians as "doctors?"
The media, like most people, often uses the term "doctor" to mean "physician." Although this usage is deeply ingrained, it gives many people the impression that physicians are the only health care workers who can earn doctoral degrees.
In fact, nurses and other health care professionals can and do earn doctorates. The use of the term "doctor" to mean "physician" also adds to what some feel is the excessively high regard the medical profession enjoys relative to other health care professions.
Medicine is a vital field, but some feel that placing it far above other equally important health professions obstructs patient care, health care reform, and of course the other professions. Many feel that this is an important factor in the nursing shortage.
In particular, if parents and teachers do not realize that nurses can earn Ph.D.'s in nursing and contribute at the doctoral level, it is less likely that they will encourage their best and brightest students to enter the field.
We urge everyone not to use the term "doctor" when "physician" is meant. In addition, if any health care worker is to be honored with the special title "Doctor" (as in "Dr. Smith"), we recommend that the title be used for all health care workers with doctorates, including nurses.
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Instead of nurse, I try to use the term "Nursey".
I believe Nursey emphasizes the the 3.0 GPA that the RN worked hard for to become at least in the top 50% of her class in college. The extra letter "y" stands for "yes, I will get you a glass of water" the nobility of service in nursing or "yes, I will get to that order when I get off the internet" or "yes, I forgot to do the accucheck".
NURSEY is a multifaceted term.
"The NURSEY nurse is on her way"
You go girl.
I believe Nursey emphasizes the the 3.0 GPA that the RN worked hard for to become at least in the top 50% of her class in college. The extra letter "y" stands for "yes, I will get you a glass of water" the nobility of service in nursing or "yes, I will get to that order when I get off the internet" or "yes, I forgot to do the accucheck".
NURSEY is a multifaceted term.
"The NURSEY nurse is on her way"
You go girl.
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NotChoCheez! said:
It would be one thing if you were helping your case, but your not. Remember, people with intelligence usually don't like a lot of senseless drama in which the nursing population is notoriously known for. Why would a teacher direct his smartest kids into this type of profession? Point blank, the nursing profession is vicious and bitter towards professions who have the credentials and training to perform the services they are not qualified to perform. I certainly wouldnt encourage my daughter or son into a profession like this. Perhaps the answer to attracting more numbers and intelligence is to simply look at the profession at face value. Get read of the petty fights, jealousy, and personality conflicts that are in the nursing profession and maybe somebody will give them a little respect. Remember its hard to respect people who don't seem interesting, intelligent, or people who you wouldn't care to associate with outside of work. Whatever!
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"Grey's Anatomy": New ABC show boasts nine physician characters, no nurses
March 2005 -- On Sunday, March 27, at 10 p.m. (9c), ABC will broadcast the premiere of "Grey's Anatomy," a new television drama about the experiences of a group of physician interns, especially women, struggling to cope in a tough Seattle surgical program. We're trying to keep an open mind, but with a staggering nine out of nine recurring characters apparently surgeons, the show seems poised to offer millions of viewers yet another regressive, physican-centric drama in a season that has been crammed full of them. Because of the demonstrated influence of network dramas on the public's health-related views and actions, we hope all nurses--but especially OR nurses--will watch and let the show's producers know what they think.
"Grey's Anatomy" appears to be a sort of younger, more gonzo version of CBS's 2002-2003 show "Presidio Med," which also followed female physicians struggling to cope with clinical practice and personal issues. The basic set-up here seems to be how hotshot senior surgeons mold the interns into the stars of tomorrow. The show will reportedly air during "Boston Legal's" time slot for a few episodes before that show returns to finish its season. Physician training, of course, has been a huge theme in NBC's "ER," Fox's" House" and other recent television dramas. According to the ABC web site, "Grey's Anatomy" "focuses on young people struggling to be doctors and doctors struggling to stay human. It's the drama and intensity of medical training mixed with the funny, sexy, painful lives of interns who are about to discover that neither medicine nor relationships can be defined in black and white. Real life only comes in shades of grey."
We can't wait to see if nurses likewise can't be defined in black and white, but only come in shades of grey. For instance, with all the focus on the training of physicians, will there be any hint of all the informal training experienced nurses provide to junior physicians? Will there be any treatment of the long training nurses themselves receive to hone their lifesaving skills? No doubt viewers will quickly become conversant with the differences between interns, residents and attendings, and probably between different surgical specialties--will they also learn the difference between circulating nurses and scrub nurses, and get a sense of what they do? Will the surgeons perform any operations without nurses, or for that matter, without anesthesia professionals? And speaking of anesthesia professionals, will we see any nurse anesthetists, who provide the great majority of anesthesia given in the United States? Will the nurses who do appear be an integral part of the surgical team, or will they be meek, faceless servants who hand surgeons things and mutely accept commands? Will the show be the first "feminist" hospital show in recent memory to treat the predominantly female profession of nursing with respect?
We encourage everyone to tune in to find out the answers to these questions. We do have one hint: every single one of the nine characters listed on the ABC site is a surgeon. That's right--every single one. This shatters the modern record for a physician-centric television lineup set just this season by Fox's "House," which boasts only six physicians out of six characters. Needless to say, this all-physician lineup will make it virtually impossible for the show to provide a remotely realistic vision of health care, with the likely result that nursing will once again be marginalized, to the detriment of public health.
In other words, "Grey's Anatomy" seems set to be all thumbs. We hope we're wrong.
They are just jealous that docs get all the recognition.
March 2005 -- On Sunday, March 27, at 10 p.m. (9c), ABC will broadcast the premiere of "Grey's Anatomy," a new television drama about the experiences of a group of physician interns, especially women, struggling to cope in a tough Seattle surgical program. We're trying to keep an open mind, but with a staggering nine out of nine recurring characters apparently surgeons, the show seems poised to offer millions of viewers yet another regressive, physican-centric drama in a season that has been crammed full of them. Because of the demonstrated influence of network dramas on the public's health-related views and actions, we hope all nurses--but especially OR nurses--will watch and let the show's producers know what they think.
"Grey's Anatomy" appears to be a sort of younger, more gonzo version of CBS's 2002-2003 show "Presidio Med," which also followed female physicians struggling to cope with clinical practice and personal issues. The basic set-up here seems to be how hotshot senior surgeons mold the interns into the stars of tomorrow. The show will reportedly air during "Boston Legal's" time slot for a few episodes before that show returns to finish its season. Physician training, of course, has been a huge theme in NBC's "ER," Fox's" House" and other recent television dramas. According to the ABC web site, "Grey's Anatomy" "focuses on young people struggling to be doctors and doctors struggling to stay human. It's the drama and intensity of medical training mixed with the funny, sexy, painful lives of interns who are about to discover that neither medicine nor relationships can be defined in black and white. Real life only comes in shades of grey."
We can't wait to see if nurses likewise can't be defined in black and white, but only come in shades of grey. For instance, with all the focus on the training of physicians, will there be any hint of all the informal training experienced nurses provide to junior physicians? Will there be any treatment of the long training nurses themselves receive to hone their lifesaving skills? No doubt viewers will quickly become conversant with the differences between interns, residents and attendings, and probably between different surgical specialties--will they also learn the difference between circulating nurses and scrub nurses, and get a sense of what they do? Will the surgeons perform any operations without nurses, or for that matter, without anesthesia professionals? And speaking of anesthesia professionals, will we see any nurse anesthetists, who provide the great majority of anesthesia given in the United States? Will the nurses who do appear be an integral part of the surgical team, or will they be meek, faceless servants who hand surgeons things and mutely accept commands? Will the show be the first "feminist" hospital show in recent memory to treat the predominantly female profession of nursing with respect?
We encourage everyone to tune in to find out the answers to these questions. We do have one hint: every single one of the nine characters listed on the ABC site is a surgeon. That's right--every single one. This shatters the modern record for a physician-centric television lineup set just this season by Fox's "House," which boasts only six physicians out of six characters. Needless to say, this all-physician lineup will make it virtually impossible for the show to provide a remotely realistic vision of health care, with the likely result that nursing will once again be marginalized, to the detriment of public health.
In other words, "Grey's Anatomy" seems set to be all thumbs. We hope we're wrong.
They are just jealous that docs get all the recognition.I am a neonatal nurse, and while I can understand why some pple may have had experiences with catty nurses, and yeah the nursing advocacy website does use strong language, some of the blanket statements here are upsetting. Let me just say that when you are in a profession where you give 100% of yourself and still have people not understand the full extent of your skills or experience, you do feel like you have to defend yourself.
I went to an prestigious university for my nursing degree with a minor in management. As a nicu nurse i coordinate all the care for the patient that day, whether it be oxygen requirements, nutrition, etc. in a collaborative effort with the doctor. I am at the bedside all day, if there is a change, however subtle, it is my job to first, troubleshoot the issue myself, and then notify the doctors, whom I respect. So, when a show like Grey's Anatomy makes a point that being called a nurse by accident is super offensive (this same show that has its own share of inaccuracies)it's easy to see why nurses would try to improve their image. (not to mention some of the comments here).
I have been posting on this board here and there for some time, and have not bashed docs. I have appreciated some of the advice I have gotten. And I do resent the fact that I am perceived as being not as intelligent. The next time you come onto my unit I may be in the middle of bagging a neonate, checking the blood transfusion, fielding calls from MRI, parents, wondering why that belly looks "off", checking labs, etc. Some of the residents that work with us (we don't have a lot residents but some come through) seem respectful of the knowledge that NICU nurses have. The only reason I would get water for anyone is a parent that would need it while they were visiting the unit due to not feeling well or being upset, like I know the doctors would as well. To help someone that way, regardless of how humble it may seem, is honorable, and I did do that a lot when I worked other floors. I love my job and the fact that I make a difference , and will continue to try to work shifts even as I start my grad program this year . I respect the training MDs have and knowledge--but I like working with the babies at the bedside all day! (although if you watch some shows it's like nurses are not there at all). Hopefully you guys will have some positive experiences with nurses in the future. I am NOT trying to start a debate, just had to put my thoughts in.
Thanks for reading all of this if you did.
I went to an prestigious university for my nursing degree with a minor in management. As a nicu nurse i coordinate all the care for the patient that day, whether it be oxygen requirements, nutrition, etc. in a collaborative effort with the doctor. I am at the bedside all day, if there is a change, however subtle, it is my job to first, troubleshoot the issue myself, and then notify the doctors, whom I respect. So, when a show like Grey's Anatomy makes a point that being called a nurse by accident is super offensive (this same show that has its own share of inaccuracies)it's easy to see why nurses would try to improve their image. (not to mention some of the comments here).
I have been posting on this board here and there for some time, and have not bashed docs. I have appreciated some of the advice I have gotten. And I do resent the fact that I am perceived as being not as intelligent. The next time you come onto my unit I may be in the middle of bagging a neonate, checking the blood transfusion, fielding calls from MRI, parents, wondering why that belly looks "off", checking labs, etc. Some of the residents that work with us (we don't have a lot residents but some come through) seem respectful of the knowledge that NICU nurses have. The only reason I would get water for anyone is a parent that would need it while they were visiting the unit due to not feeling well or being upset, like I know the doctors would as well. To help someone that way, regardless of how humble it may seem, is honorable, and I did do that a lot when I worked other floors. I love my job and the fact that I make a difference , and will continue to try to work shifts even as I start my grad program this year
. I respect the training MDs have and knowledge--but I like working with the babies at the bedside all day! (although if you watch some shows it's like nurses are not there at all). Hopefully you guys will have some positive experiences with nurses in the future. I am NOT trying to start a debate, just had to put my thoughts in.Thanks for reading all of this if you did.
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Freeeedom! said:
My GPA was 3.94 and I hold two masters, one in nursing and one in business. That apparently was a smarter route than going into medicine as I make six figures...with no loans to pay back. My 6'3" 210 body can also beat you to a pulp with Hsing-I should I get into a bad mood. Till then, call me nursey all you want...if you dare!
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zenman said:My GPA was 3.94 and I hold two masters, one in nursing and one in business. That apparently was a smarter route than going into medicine as I make six figures...with no loans to pay back. My 6'3" 210 body can also beat you to a pulp with Hsing-I should I get into a bad mood. Till then, call me nursey all you want...if you dare!
WOW, a 3.94. That's about the average GPA of nurses and business majors just about anywhere simply because their such watered down degrees. Your mom must be so proud of you!
Do you know any nursing majors? I am just asking b/c my roommate in college was pre-med and she seemed stunned at the classes I was taking and the fact that I was studying to keep up with all of my labs, clinicals, etc. to study for exams THAT WERE NOT CURVED..Hey, med school is a different story, i agree, but i didn't see anything watered down about my micro labs
(the same labs that non-nursing students took too )....try to keep an open mind; if you haven't worked in a hospital yet, hopefully when you do you will have better experiences with the nursing profession.P.S. I know, I know, I am responding to the bait! Darnit!
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NJT said:
Do you know any nursing majors? I am just asking b/c my roommate in college was pre-med and she seemed stunned at the classes I was taking and the fact that I was studying to keep up with all of my labs, clinicals, etc. to study for exams THAT WERE NOT CURVED...Hey, med school is a different story, i agree, but i didn't see anything watered down about my micro labs
P.S. I know, I know, I am responding to the bait! Darnit!
You are not honestly trying to equate the academic rigor of an MSN program to that of medical school are you? Nor the BSN to an actual pre-med program? I'm sorry but the fact that you took some pre-req science classes doesn't a pre-med make. Orem's self care deficit theory and nursing care plans are not on the MCAT. And yes, I was a nursng major in undergrad (ended up leaving the program after three years to complete a degree in health policy) so please don't even try the "you don't know what you are talking about" routine.
If you are honestly trying to draw the comparison, remember this, both BSN and MSN degrees (and business degrees for that matter) are available on-line. Please, show me the on-line medical school. Oh, wait, there isn't one...
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I'll bet $50 this wasn't what you meant to say.NJT said:
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FoughtFyr said:
I wouldn't even try to say that any other course work is as tough to memorize (academic rigor) as medical school. And I certainly wouldn't care for med school as I'm too right-brained. And you're right about no med school on-line programs. On-line learning is for adult learners and you'll notice the top university's have such programs. People who can make it through a quality on-line program are ahead of those who required hand-holding through school
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lawguil said:
They are not watered down degrees; they are appropriate for their fields. At least most professions are in the current century. You are sending how much money and time to learn a reductionist method of health care that refuses to stay up with the "real" sciences? What a waste!! Do you need me to tell you some things your professors refuse to tell you?
Well, mom and pop were hoping I'd be a real doctor but I told them I did not want to get a Ph.D.. However, they are both proud when I tell them something you never will, "Well, I made $20k this weekend; pop do you still need that new boat?"
FoughtFyr said:
actually only RN-BSN or RN-MSN degrees can be found online (yes a nitpicky point, but important because you do have to finish your 2 yrs of RN school plus the prereqs of 2 semesters of Chem, 1 year of anatomy and physiology, 1 semester of micro and nutrition.) Of course this is different than med school and their prereqs, but just because med school is MORE work and of a higher difficulty level doesn't mean that Nursing school is a complete cakewalk. In our area you pretty much need to get A's in all your sciences and have above 3.5 gpa to get into the programs, and even then you are not guaranteed. A few programs i have make the nursing students just take the same science prereqs as the med students and lump everybody into the same classes. (at least i have read that on here before).Why can't we just admit that many nurses ARE well educated? it doesn't take anything away from the MD to realize that the nurse can also be an educated and intelligent individual.
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"We urge everyone not to use the term "doctor" when "physician" is meant. In addition, if any health care worker is to be honored with the special title "Doctor" (as in "Dr. Smith"), we recommend that the title be used for all health care workers with doctorates, including nurses."
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Rediculous comments like the above will only serve to widen the rift (or pseudorift) between MD/DO's and other providers. I highly doubt that any parent encourage their 'best and brightest' to any profession that has petty organized statements like the above.
P.S. Zenman, for someone so comfortable with their position in life your threads sound a tad defensive....
ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Rediculous comments like the above will only serve to widen the rift (or pseudorift) between MD/DO's and other providers. I highly doubt that any parent encourage their 'best and brightest' to any profession that has petty organized statements like the above.
P.S. Zenman, for someone so comfortable with their position in life your threads sound a tad defensive....
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smkoepke said:
I absolutely admit that nurses are very well educated. They are incredible people who have kept me from making serious mistakes. They are amazing patient advocates and serve a very real role in healthcare. BUT they are not physicians - even if they get a DSn. In medical school I spent an incredible amount of time trying to digest huge amounts of basic science knowledge for two years. Then I spent nearly 4000 clinical hours in year three and another 2500+ in the fourth year. Now I'm in the middle of a three year residency then I will do two years of fellowship. All told nine years of training that, if subjected to the time-to-credit hours conversion that was applied used in my nursing school, would equate almost 20 years of schooling. A bit different than the MSN and "business degree" that started this discussion.
- H
i will agree with you here. the training is definitely different! it's, shorter, and less in depth. I was mainly chiming in on the attitudes about nursing in general, not the specific DNP vs MD debate, I think it's great if they want a more clinical doctorate but realistically i think it is just going to extract more money from the students pockets with minimal benefits, but that is my opinion and i freely admit that i have not looked into the program much. Nice to see som on this site that can note the differences between the 2 without denigrating one.FoughtFyr said:
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zenman said:They are not watered down degrees; they are appropriate for their fields. At least most professions are in the current century. You are sending how much money and time to learn a reductionist method of health care that refuses to stay up with the "real" sciences? What a waste!! Do you need me to tell you some things your professors refuse to tell you?
Well, mom and pop were hoping I'd be a real doctor but I told them I did not want to get a Ph.D.. However, they are both proud when I tell them something you never will, "Well, I made $20k this weekend; pop do you still need that new boat?"
zenman, zenman, zenman, I'm sure you're proud of your accomplishments, however, that doesn't change the fact that nursing isn't known for its academic rigor amongst academics. I'm not here to degrade or reduce its importance in healthcare, simply putting it at face value. I'll also say that while you may have had a 3.9 gpa in both business and nursing, it is very common for people in these majors to have this kind of success. Throw these same students into a natural science, engineering, meteorology, mathematics, English, environmental science, chemistry, physics, or biological science program, and you would see that same students GPA drop to a 2.7-3.3 GPA if they could complete them. Being a student advisor, I see these things happen all the time. Trust me, grades have never defined anybody. To take it a step further, a premed program doesnt compare to the academic rigor of a math major, engineering major, or many other academic degrees. However, a medical student would probably survive in these programs as the average nursing student/business major would crash and burn hard. I admire your die hard loyalty to the nursing profession, but I believe that profession would flourish if people like you didn't make such a stuff it down your throat kind of sell that is so common. L.
PS, Sounds like your parents would be very proud of me, although, I don't make 20k in a weekend.
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As a nursing student that is about to graduate I am so frustrated with the cattiness and hostility that is evident amongst some of the people on this website. I understand how annoying the nurse advocacy website can be and I also understand that it may not seem like a big deal to anyone not in nursing but it is something to nurses. You are all heading into a profession that is one of the most respected professions in the world, the public's lack of knowledge about what it takes to be a nurse means that we do not get respect. The most common response I get when I share that I am in nursing is "Oh that's nice, why didn't you go to med school, you're smart enough?" Do you people even realize how that makes me feel, in a few sentences that person has totally demeaned and devalued the hard work that I do and feeds into the idea that "smart" people do not go into nursing. Also you do not have to deal with society's idea that all nurses do is dole out medication and change bedpans. Also you don't have to deal with society's views that the nurse is a sex kitten and have that totally nullify the knowledge that nurses hold. At my university the School of Nursing is the one with the highest overall GPA of any program or school. The university is even asking the Nursing School to make our grading more difficult, apparently a 95% for an A isn't hard enough. Don't ever make the assumption nor the statement that nurses aren't smart!!!!! Oh and by the way, we maintain our GPA's while doing rotations in addition to classes, working and volunteering in the community to provide health care!
I respect the work that you people do in med school, I respect the amount of knowledge you have to synthesize in your education, I respect the hard and long shifts you put in as both students and as residents. And I respect that you have incredible pressures to deal with on daily basis. I don't know how you do it, it's absolutely amazing! All I ask is respect in return and acknowledgement that if there weren't any nurses the health care industry would stop. The good doctors that I have met are ones who value the judgement and knowledge nurses have. They show respect by listening and truly considering what nurses think and say, they also stand up and defend the hard work nurses do! Also the good doctors ask nurses "What do you think about this treatment, what are some of the concerns you have? Is there a consideration that I may have missed?" When I get into clinical practice one of my desires is to work in collaboration with physicians, social works, physical therapists etc. All of our professions bring strengths and weaknesses that are made up for when we work together. I understand this may seem like a corny ideal but it needs to happen so our patients can have the best care, no matter what the circumstances are.
I respect the work that you people do in med school, I respect the amount of knowledge you have to synthesize in your education, I respect the hard and long shifts you put in as both students and as residents. And I respect that you have incredible pressures to deal with on daily basis. I don't know how you do it, it's absolutely amazing! All I ask is respect in return and acknowledgement that if there weren't any nurses the health care industry would stop. The good doctors that I have met are ones who value the judgement and knowledge nurses have. They show respect by listening and truly considering what nurses think and say, they also stand up and defend the hard work nurses do! Also the good doctors ask nurses "What do you think about this treatment, what are some of the concerns you have? Is there a consideration that I may have missed?" When I get into clinical practice one of my desires is to work in collaboration with physicians, social works, physical therapists etc. All of our professions bring strengths and weaknesses that are made up for when we work together. I understand this may seem like a corny ideal but it needs to happen so our patients can have the best care, no matter what the circumstances are.
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sunnkist said:
I guess I'll put it in simple terms. Everybody already understands that nurses are important and often times bright. Further, everybody understands that nurses are an important part in the dynamics of healthcare. EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS, even physicians. If youre trying to debate whether or not you deserve respect; well, of course you deserve respect. However, when you post these silly posts about how youre a victim and the nursing profession is made up of victims, it just gets harder and harder to swallow by people who really don't care to hear it all the time (speaking for myself of course and maybe others).
I'll say it, every DOCTOR will say it, and every healthcare provider will say it. Nurses are important. What people don't want to do is hear nurses who dwell on their status, hear about your social conflicts, and gossip. You don't hear physicians walking around talking about how important they are to health care. They already know it; it's obvious and know body wants to hear it. And I'm also sure know one want to hear me anymore either, so I'll shut-up now. L.
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Sunkist-
Good post. As someone just about to graduate from med school I wanted to tell you a few things. I think all of my classmates highly respect nurses (except for a few loose cannons and they will always be there). I learn a lot of practical information about lines/drips/tele/etc that we dont get in school and are expected to 'pick up' on the floors. In return I always chat with nurses about pathophys/differential diagnosis/etc.
The main problem that I see (from the med-student standpoint) is that the young nurses (again, not all) is that they are so despirate to prove that they are intelligent. This is especially true of those planning to go onto further degrees such as CRNA/NP/etc. They are driven to prove that they are as smart as docs... that is how I see it. NOT just that they desire to be respected, but they want to be seen as equals. Your post actually exemplifies this by focusing on the GPA of your class. Look back at the previous posts and see that no one was insulting the intelligence of nurses.
Nurses are intelligent, but they will never be seen as "smart" as physicians because the training is no where near as rigorous.
Good post. As someone just about to graduate from med school I wanted to tell you a few things. I think all of my classmates highly respect nurses (except for a few loose cannons and they will always be there). I learn a lot of practical information about lines/drips/tele/etc that we dont get in school and are expected to 'pick up' on the floors. In return I always chat with nurses about pathophys/differential diagnosis/etc.
The main problem that I see (from the med-student standpoint) is that the young nurses (again, not all) is that they are so despirate to prove that they are intelligent. This is especially true of those planning to go onto further degrees such as CRNA/NP/etc. They are driven to prove that they are as smart as docs... that is how I see it. NOT just that they desire to be respected, but they want to be seen as equals. Your post actually exemplifies this by focusing on the GPA of your class. Look back at the previous posts and see that no one was insulting the intelligence of nurses.
Nurses are intelligent, but they will never be seen as "smart" as physicians because the training is no where near as rigorous.
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windsurfr said:
I agree with this comment. I always make an effort to be cool with nurses who are cool in return. I have also noticed that some of the young nurses and some of the old ones too have this "I know just as much as you" attitude.
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Wow. Working healthcare for 15 years I've developed a lot of respect for physicians, pharmacists, fellow-RNs, radiology and medical technologists etc.. Everyone brings different skills to the table and plays an essential, crucial role in caring for our collective patient. If you remove any one of the above from the equation the patient suffers significantly. As a result all members are of equal import. After scrolling through this thread I was disappointed to find that the respect I used to hold for physicians fell a notch. I had no idea y'all were so elitist and arrogant. You may think you're omnipotent but I guarantee once you're out in the real word you will discover that you don't have the knowledge or the skills to do everything your patient requires on your own. You're going to need all the professionals around you. And I won't follow in the same shoes as those RNs who wrote before me acknowledging how vastly superior your education is. It's obvious to me that as much as you think you're getting, you're not getting enough.
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mariedoreen said:
Hmm, doctors are omnipotent. Let's see, nurses seem to freely shift between departments. From the OR to the ED, the floor to OB, it just seems nurses can do it all (with no formal retraining). But doctors (I'm sorry - physicians) feel omnipotent?!? Please, after 9 years of post-bachelor's education and training I will be qualified to work in one of two limited areas (ED and toxiciology). If I want to change to, let's say, OB, I have to redo 4 years of that training. BUT if a nurse from the ED wants to work in OB, he or she can start next week.
Seems to me as much as you think you are getting, YOU are not getting enough. But what do I know anyway?!?
- H
Your friendly former BSN student
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lawguil said:
Well, I thought that was exactly what I said in my post. Medicine is definitely tougher, but that does not mean other degrees are "watered down." The are appropriate for the field. Business, for example, doesn't have to have the rigor of medicine. One could argue, however, that one field is just memorizing mumerous facts and applying them in a cookbook fashion while the other field teaches one to actually think. Not being harsh here, just realistic.
Whoa, let's get one think straight. I have no "die hard loyalty" to the nursing profession. I just argue for "truth" and will just as easily stand by you defending you against nurses if need be.
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windsurfr said:
As a "smart" person, let me explain to you that many nurses (and other people) are smarter than physicians, for example, even though they have never chosen to undergo rigorous medical training. Almost anyone can make it through medical school if they desire it and can apply themselves. Your statement is not logical..."rigorous training" and "smart" does not always go together. A Navy Seal goes through more "rigorous training" than physicians but that doesn't mean they are all smart. I have seen some really dumb docs...and equally dumb nurses. And some are brillant but don't have the common sense to apply their knowledge.
One might also argue that someone is dumb as hell to enter the medical profession today, don't you agree?
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Actually it depends where you get your business degree. If it was at Harvard, Northwest, U. of Chicago, and you get a 3.5 + thats pretty good. I'm working on my master's in economics-U know theres a lot of advanced calc. and statistics that a lot of med students can't handle but I can do with ease. Im doing grad work- dont ask me why - and I consistently score the top 5 in my biology and chemistry exams (premed courses) much to the dismay of other students esp. med students. I dont know why but med students seem to pout and stress over their grades - try to relax guys. Anyways the reason I posting this is because Im a nursing student and just wanted to say docs get the respect but that doesnt lead to self respect. There are idiots in nursing as well as in medicine.
lawguil said:
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Actually, a lot of people Ive had discussions with seem to think docs dont seem to be sociable. Ive heard that docs seem to be distant, lacking eye contact or aware of social graces. Of course there are some docs that are personable but for some reason a lot of them seem detached. Thats the real world.. Now in TV...
lawguil said:
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Nursing student here.. I really dont mind docs getting recognition for what they deserve. Im not in health care to look good. Docs also get prestige/status something nurses dont get from the media. However they get it from their patients. Also you have to remember along with recognition docs do get malpractice/negligence suits, ungodly working hours, stress divorce, suicide, ect... if you want to be a doctor ... its a great profession to be in.
toughlife said:"Grey's Anatomy": New ABC show boasts nine physician characters, no nurses
March 2005 -- On Sunday, March 27, at 10 p.m. (9c), ABC will broadcast the premiere of "Grey's Anatomy," a new television drama about the experiences of a group of physician interns, especially women, struggling to cope in a tough Seattle surgical program. We're trying to keep an open mind, but with a staggering nine out of nine recurring characters apparently surgeons, the show seems poised to offer millions of viewers yet another regressive, physican-centric drama in a season that has been crammed full of them. Because of the demonstrated influence of network dramas on the public's health-related views and actions, we hope all nurses--but especially OR nurses--will watch and let the show's producers know what they think.
"Grey's Anatomy" appears to be a sort of younger, more gonzo version of CBS's 2002-2003 show "Presidio Med," which also followed female physicians struggling to cope with clinical practice and personal issues. The basic set-up here seems to be how hotshot senior surgeons mold the interns into the stars of tomorrow. The show will reportedly air during "Boston Legal's" time slot for a few episodes before that show returns to finish its season. Physician training, of course, has been a huge theme in NBC's "ER," Fox's" House" and other recent television dramas. According to the ABC web site, "Grey's Anatomy" "focuses on young people struggling to be doctors and doctors struggling to stay human. It's the drama and intensity of medical training mixed with the funny, sexy, painful lives of interns who are about to discover that neither medicine nor relationships can be defined in black and white. Real life only comes in shades of grey."
We can't wait to see if nurses likewise can't be defined in black and white, but only come in shades of grey. For instance, with all the focus on the training of physicians, will there be any hint of all the informal training experienced nurses provide to junior physicians? Will there be any treatment of the long training nurses themselves receive to hone their lifesaving skills? No doubt viewers will quickly become conversant with the differences between interns, residents and attendings, and probably between different surgical specialties--will they also learn the difference between circulating nurses and scrub nurses, and get a sense of what they do? Will the surgeons perform any operations without nurses, or for that matter, without anesthesia professionals? And speaking of anesthesia professionals, will we see any nurse anesthetists, who provide the great majority of anesthesia given in the United States? Will the nurses who do appear be an integral part of the surgical team, or will they be meek, faceless servants who hand surgeons things and mutely accept commands? Will the show be the first "feminist" hospital show in recent memory to treat the predominantly female profession of nursing with respect?
We encourage everyone to tune in to find out the answers to these questions. We do have one hint: every single one of the nine characters listed on the ABC site is a surgeon. That's right--every single one. This shatters the modern record for a physician-centric television lineup set just this season by Fox's "House," which boasts only six physicians out of six characters. Needless to say, this all-physician lineup will make it virtually impossible for the show to provide a remotely realistic vision of health care, with the likely result that nursing will once again be marginalized, to the detriment of public health.
In other words, "Grey's Anatomy" seems set to be all thumbs. We hope we're wrong.
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Med school is a lot of freaking memorization. If youre good at that youll be a good med student. Also you have to be willing to put in the hours of study. Its pretty rigourous. As for the clinicals thats a different animal. You can be good with academics and OK in clinicals. I would say that would take a lot of endurance, committment and tears. But even then a MD isnt truly a doctorate in the sense of having a phd. To truly do some meaningful research and intellectual pursuit MDs go on (at least the good MD students) to pursue doctorates. Med school is training that weeds out many students but its not the top if you are pursuing an research or academic career in medicine. An MSN and MD program arent comparable. MSN programs are much more specialized and MD (first four years) arent. An MSN knows much more in his or her specialization than a four year med student but a med student will know much more in his/her field. **** its late and...
FoughtFyr said:
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FoughtFyr said:
I dont think nurses want to be called physicians or take away the years doc need to train. I personally think if you want to be a doc then go for it if not then thats ok. Most nurses choose nursing over medicine b/c they prob didnt want that title and the requirements for the title. To them it isnt worth it. Not everyone who isnt a doc wished they were a doc. As for the schooling docs go through I respect that but remember patients you see really dont care what you know or who you are if you cant save them. Thats the point in health care. So lets stop trying to "up" one another.
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lawguil said:zenman, zenman, zenman, I'm sure you're proud of your accomplishments, however, that doesn't change the fact that nursing isn't known for its academic rigor amongst academics. I'm not here to degrade or reduce its importance in healthcare, simply putting it at face value. I'll also say that while you may have had a 3.9 gpa in both business and nursing, it is very common for people in these majors to have this kind of success. Throw these same students into a natural science, engineering, meteorology, mathematics, English, environmental science, chemistry, physics, or biological science program, and you would see that same students GPA drop to a 2.7-3.3 GPA if they could complete them. Being a student advisor, I see these things happen all the time. Trust me, grades have never defined anybody. To take it a step further, a premed program doesnt compare to the academic rigor of a math major, engineering major, or many other academic degrees. However, a medical student would probably survive in these programs as the average nursing student/business major would crash and burn hard. I admire your die hard loyalty to the nursing profession, but I believe that profession would flourish if people like you didn't make such a stuff it down your throat kind of sell that is so common. L.
PS, Sounds like your parents would be very proud of me, although, I don't make 20k in a weekend.
But 2.7-3.3 is a pretty wide range. Youre saying Zen if he goes to med school with the capability of a 3.9 can expect to go as low as a C average? Hmnn.. Assuming hes at a good university that seems kind of strange. Im not sure about that. lets see thats a C to B average. Someone who has a 3.9 at ANY top university is a pretty good student no matter what their major is (OK maybe Ill take the exception with art history). That being said a 3.9 is decent though not conclusive indicator that he can do well in a med program. Even if his 3.9 GPA only translates into a 3.5 GPA in a premed program then thats still pretty good.
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windsurfr said:
Everyone wants to feel smart. Except for me(I hate that label but thats another story) I want to point out that smart and intelligence are really the same thing.
I think what you were really saying are docs are more knowledgeable because of their training.
Oh well, thats my blog...and its getting late..need sleeep..zzzz...
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thn5625 said:
You have touched on a number of interesting points that I have often thought about. In one or your many posts you wrote about intelligence. I agree that "smart" isn't easily defined and is a term that is misused. I think what you are comparing is intelligence vs. aptitude vs. diligence. It's a simple triangle that each person can identify with and helps define a persons cognitive approach to academic success or failure. Surely, if youre super intelligent, you may be able to comprehend large amounts of data, but you may lack in certain practical aspects of the material (My point is that often times communication/interpersonal skills, awareness, motor skills, judgment ect can affect one's application). Similarly, if you have an aptitude for a particular subject and average intelligence, you may struggle a little with certain subjects and do well in a subject that you have interest and demonstrate a certain level of intellectual curiosity in. In addition, application of the material will be above average. Youre also correct in thinking that the average person can be diligent and "driven" to perform and be successful in any subject material. Occasionally, you meet a student who is diligent, intelligent (learns easily), and has an aptitude for what they are studying. With those student, it's best to just get out of there way!
Are there nurses who are overwhelming with intelligence and intellectual curiosity, YES? Are there many? NO! My experience with nurses is they tend to have an aptitude for what they are studying and are very diligent! That makes for high GPA's. You tend to see higher GPA's amongst students who are studying a trade rather than academia. I dont have statistics to reference, just experience. L.
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Certainly there is a disportionate amount of excellent students in the med programs vs nursing programs. That being said, we really dont know if what Zen's true ability is in a med program unless we look at other factors other than his GPA. Thanks for the post!
lawguil said:
