Medicine career , still rewarding in every sense

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hyperioncu

hyperioncu

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I’ve been reading this forum for the last two months and I am elated to have found it. I got enough information here to clear out many doubts and concerns I have. However, there is something that bugs me.

Over and over again people say that you shouldn’t do medicine for the money, because it is not worth it., that should do any other career that will give you as much or more money than medicine in a shorter period of time.
I think we pretty much all agree that medicine is a calling; you have to love it to spend so many years trying to become a doctor. It takes huge sacrifices, which at the end can be negligible since we are doing we love.
I don’t know when in my math class I fell sleep and miss the part of 150 000 being a small number, because frankly considering that just less than 10% people in the USA earn that amount, that is a huge number. Yes, you spend many years studying, inhibiting yourself from doing many things but I can tell you about entire counties where the average salary is under 35 000, and little change or increase is reported.
Let’s also consider that 150 000 is for the most part a starting salary, and business savvy doctors can negotiate a higher starting salary than their counterparts.
Another important topic I have read extensively here is getting and MBA or becoming a lawyer, maybe some lawyers and MBA can earn as much as a doctor, but those that can claim such numbers are a very lucky few, extremely few, while THE MOST PART of the doctors can definitely absolutely earn more than 150 000. You have to be very slow to get less than that.
Any doctor can earn easily more than 150 000, while very few lucky MBA get that or more, I would say that 20 % and I am probably being extremely generous with numbers. Lawyers can perhaps do much better than someone with a MBA, but the vast majority of lawyers don’t get the six figures salaries.
It is a fact and it will continue to be, that medicine is a great investment in your future with professional and remunerative satisfactions, which counteract most of the negative sides. It is not maybe what it used to be in the past, but nothing is like it used to be, nevertheless medicine continue to be one of the best careers for those that are willing to endure its strict training.
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I’ve been reading this forum for the last two months and I am elated to have found it. I got enough information here to clear out many doubts and concerns I have. However, there is something that bugs me.

Over and over again people say that you shouldn’t do medicine for the money, because it is not worth it., that should do any other career that will give you as much or more money than medicine in a shorter period of time.
I think we pretty much all agree that medicine is a calling; you have to love it to spend so many years trying to become a doctor. It takes huge sacrifices, which at the end can be negligible since we are doing we love.
I don’t know when in my math class I fell sleep and miss the part of 150 000 being a small number, because frankly considering that just less than 10% people in the USA earn that amount, that is a huge number. Yes, you spend many years studying, inhibiting yourself from doing many things but I can tell you about entire counties where the average salary is under 35 000, and little change or increase is reported.
Let’s also consider that 150 000 is for the most part a starting salary, and business savvy doctors can negotiate a higher starting salary than their counterparts.
Another important topic I have read extensively here is getting and MBA or becoming a lawyer, maybe some lawyers and MBA can earn as much as a doctor, but those that can claim such numbers are a very lucky few, extremely few, while THE MOST PART of the doctors can definitely absolutely earn more than 150 000. You have to be very slow to get less than that.
Any doctor can earn easily more than 150 000, while very few lucky MBA get that or more, I would say that 20 % and I am probably being extremely generous with numbers. Lawyers can perhaps do much better than someone with a MBA, but the vast majority of lawyers don’t get the six figures salaries.
It is a fact and it will continue to be, that medicine is a great investment in your future with professional and remunerative satisfactions, which counteract most of the negative sides. It is not maybe what it used to be in the past, but nothing is like it used to be, nevertheless medicine continue to be one of the best careers for those that are willing to endure its strict training.
 
Umm... because you'll have $150k debt if you're lucky by the time you're done. Then you have to buy a house, car, and malpractice insurance.

When we say $150k aint that great, it's because you've worked really hard and not getting a lot out of it. $150k would be ok if we didn't have debt when we were done, but we do. Simple as that.

Not to mention there's also 3-7 years of being treated like... well you'll see.
 
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Usually it's the pain of being $150k in debt after four years of med school, followed by 3-10 years of residency earning around $8-9/hour that gets you down.
 
This is a overdiscussed topic. You really shouldn't compre medicine to law and business head to head because (1) law is a much larger profession with far bigger range (so you need to truncate it to the appropriate number or you are discussing apples and oranges), and (2) MBA is not a professional degree or an entrance level degree. MBA is a degree you get once you are already working in business for a couple of years, and you use it to help climb further up the corporate ladder. And in neither of these degrees are matriculants exclusively the best and brightest. Someone who worked as hard as it takes to get into med school to get onto one of these other tracks would do far far better than the "average" of these other fields to which you seem to want to peg to. Far more people are making six digits 3 years out of law school than med school, but the average salary is quite low because the range is so huge. (Eg I know of someone who graduated law school and got a $17k job). But that doesn't really matter because the same folks who work hard enough to get into and succeed in med school would never approach the low end of the range. If you are going to put in the effort to be successful at one field, you have the ability to be successful at another -- take it from a career changer.

$150k is very nice money. But $150k after 7-10 years and $200k in debt is simply not as good as getting $150k in a much shorter time or with less debt. The time value of money is huge.

Only do medicine if you really are excited about the job. You will be working 60+ hours per week for the rest of your life, and no amount of a paycheck will make it worth it if you hate it. Figure out what you want to do for a living. Then worry about what it pays. In most cases if it makes you happy, it will be adequate.
 
Law2Doc said:
This is a overdiscussed topic. You really shouldn't compre medicine to law and business head to head because (1) law is a much larger profession with far bigger range (so you need to truncate or you are discussing apples and oranges), and (2) MBA is not a professional degree or an entrance level degree. MBA is a degree you get once you are already working in business for a couple of years, and you use it to help climb further up the corporate ladder. And in neither of these degrees are matriculants exclusively the best and brightest. Someone who worked as hard as it takes to get into med school to get onto one of these other tracks would do far far better than the average you seem to want to peg to.

$150k is very nice money. But $150k after 7-10 years and $200k in debt is simply not as good as getting $150k in a much shorter time or with less debt. The time value of money is huge.

Only do medicine if you really are excited about the job. You will be working 60+ hours per week for the rest of your life, and no amount of a paycheck will make it worth it if you hate it. Figure out what you want to do for a living. Then worry about what it pays. In most cases if it makes you happy, it will be adequate.
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P=MD= 150 000 +

I know is an over discussed topic yet never losses its appeal for some reason. I am not comparing the two professions, I am just taking the arguments that so many people bring about lawyer and MBA.

Yes you are putting many years into medicine but you can in a few years after u residency, at least financially, make a sound comeback.

Many, many lawyers never go beyond their mall office, doing traffic tickets, litigations and other legal matters. Let’s say that a doctor study more 5 years than a lawyer, very few lawyers in those five years can get to the salary that a doctor will get after that time.
I know plenty of MBA working for 45 000 a year, and trust me they wont even touch the six figures salary in less than 15 years if ever, that goes for the most part , a 70 % of them.
Climb up the corporate ladder sounds very nice, but believe me, working in those the 500 fortune company I know how hard that climbing is.

150 000 is starting salary , in a few years or if you are business savvy you can push that figures up, those that negotiate and don’t got for the fist offer can definitely get a better salary. Remember, there is never an unemployed doctor.

Yes doctors work a lot, but they are doing they like or they would not have spent so much time and effort. Everybody does shadowing, so no one is foreign to the working conditions.

Always remember that doctors are in the upper 10% percentile of salaries. You won’t be rich, but you definitely won’t be counting your pennies or dreading the end of the month.
You’ll be spending triple the time, triple the amount of money you will have to borrow, but once you are done, you’ll be earning triple what they made, a more few years and your earning potential will almost double.

Again, do what you love and u’ll see yourself doing, but a little bit further always pays off.
 
hyperioncu said:
Remember, there is never an unemployed doctor.

Yes doctors work a lot, but they are doing they like or they would not have spent so much time and effort. Everybody does shadowing, so no one is foreign to the working conditions.
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While I agree that $150k+ is certainly a lot of money (and would be very welcome now, since I'm swimming in debt), the above statements are not totally true.

Unfortunately, there are people coming out of residencies/fellowships who can't find jobs. Rare, yes. Sometimes you'll find people have to settle in less-than-desirable cities because of a glut of physicians in certain specialties being that any given big city.

And while many people may have "shadowed" a physician during the pre-med years, even doing rotations as a medical student doesn't quite prepare you for what residency is like.

Don't forget that if you take call as an attending, there are no workhour restrictions, no post-call rules, etc.
 
I wish more people would have an opportunity to shadow residents. That's really where most people learn they either love or hate their job.
 
hyperioncu said:
I am not comparing the two professions, I am just taking the arguments that so many people bring about lawyer and MBA.
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Actually although you say you are not comparing the two -- you go on to do exactly that. You ignore the point that those who have the ability and work ethic to get into med school and do well as a physician also have the ability to be at the top end of other fields. Thus the fact that "I know plenty of MBA working for 45 000 a year" is well and nice and probably true and yet meaningless to this discussion. These are not the same people who had the choice of medicine or business. Nor is the business degree the same kind of degree -- you don't graduate college and go into an MBA program to get a good business job -- you get a good business job to get into a good MBA program. Apples and oranges.

As for your "there is never an unemployed doctor" comment, I have to say that this is simply inaccurate. In my prior career I worked with a number of physicians in financial ruin and bankruptcy. There are no guarantees in life. your odds are very good in medicine, but there is a floor you can fall through.
 
Law2Doc said:
Actually although you say you are not comparing the two -- you go on to do exactly that. You ignore the point that those who have the ability and work ethic to get into med school and do well as a physician also have the ability to be at the top end of other fields. Thus the fact that "I know plenty of MBA working for 45 000 a year" is well and nice and probably true and yet meaningless to this discussion. These are not the same people who had the choice of medicine or business. Nor is the business degree the same kind of degree -- you don't graduate college and go into an MBA program to get a good business job -- you get a good business job to get into a good MBA program. Apples and oranges.

As for your "there is never an unemployed doctor" comment, I have to say that this is simply inaccurate. In my prior career I worked with a number of physicians in financial ruin and bankruptcy. There are no guarantees in life. your odds are very good in medicine, but there is a floor you can fall through.
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http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5480500

" I was a former junior analyst for 2 years at Morgan Stanley in their investment banking division in New York. Nothing irritates me more when I hear physicians say that they could have just went into business and made a lot more money. That's so far from the truth. Without providing names, I attended a prestigious university in the northeast. No, it's not easy to become an investment banker. Morgan Stanley only recruited from a select number of schools. And among their list of schools, those who attended public universities had a slim chance of getting hired since alumni networks gave the Ivy league candidates a leg up. Your GPA has to be strong too. We had nearly 500 students from just my class apply for my job and they were not looking at anyone with less than a 3.6 unless they had connections or an Olympic medal. To be competitive, they were really looking at candidates with a 3.8 unless you were an engineering or math major. And when you become an analyst, there is no guarantee that you will become an associate or a VP, which is where the money is. The famous investment banker profile seen on television refers to VP's who have been in the field for about 10 years. In other words, those were the guys who made it past the layoffs and other political backstabbing. During the financial crisis of the last 7 years, several banks including minde layed of several analysts and associates. There is no job security regardless if you attended Harvard or Yale. I knew several Harvard guys who got cut just like the rest of us.

It's extremely difficult and unlikely to make a lot of money in business despite what you think. There is no field like medicine in which you are guaranteed job security, a six figure salary, respect, geographic flexibility and the ability to truly make a difference in people's lives. Yes, maybe the VP at Stanley' will make a 1 million per year but the odds of you becoming a surgical subspecialist earning 500K is far greater than anyone making VP. And remember, VP's get fired too.

You only read about the successes in the business world like how some dotcomer built a business from scratch. But you never hear about the millions who were fired, lost their venture capital or had their job outsourced to India. Most of your friends who get great jobs out of college working in the computer industry either lost their job to outsourcing or moved around several times; most of these guys are probably earning around the same salary they started with 5-7 years ago. 95% of all new businesses fail and there is a reason for that. When I read these posts, I just want to yell at these spoiled doctors because they have no idea how great they have it. You will never have to worry about losing your job in your mid-40's with kids in college the way most business guys worry.

Even in psych, you could probably work 3-4 days a week and earn 150K if you practiced in the right location. There are several jobs that offer cushy incentives if you are willing to live outside NY, LA, SF, Boston and Chicago. I honestly don't know of any physicians in private practice that work a full 5 days. Most work 4 days and the others who work on Friday, work half a day. A lot of these people who are complaining about managed care are doing so from a relative standpoint. Physicians just used to make that much more money 20 years ago, however, those in some type of private practice setting who have been practicing for 3 years or more average 200K per year. Less than 1% of the U.S. population earns 200K or more. Quit whining!"
 
Law2Doc said:
Actually although you say you are not comparing the two -- you go on to do exactly that. You ignore the point that those who have the ability and work ethic to get into med school and do well as a physician also have the ability to be at the top end of other fields. Thus the fact that "I know plenty of MBA working for 45 000 a year" is well and nice and probably true and yet meaningless to this discussion. These are not the same people who had the choice of medicine or business. Nor is the business degree the same kind of degree -- you don't graduate college and go into an MBA program to get a good business job -- you get a good business job to get into a good MBA program. Apples and oranges.

As for your "there is never an unemployed doctor" comment, I have to say that this is simply inaccurate. In my prior career I worked with a number of physicians in financial ruin and bankruptcy. There are no guarantees in life. your odds are very good in medicine, but there is a floor you can fall through.
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Remember that we are talking here in percentages, non-traditional may account for 25 % of medicine student every year, these people had other careers and for a myriad of reasons didnt feel satisfied with their chosen field. neverhtless, it has been discussed here before , that many people that go into a medicine career may lack the skill to endeavour in any other field, I disagree to some extent, but perhaps a proof of this , may be the "physicians in financial ruin and bankruptcy". I ignore the reasons that drove them to such precarious financial situation in which they find themselves now, but i will risk a bet saying that they have a complete ignorance of fundamental in finances.
Medical education just need people with will power, capable of learn by heart thousands of thousands of minutiae, that added together gives the complete pathologic picture. Many doctor have a remarkable memory, but they are unable to swim in the sea infested with sharks loans ready to take a bite at the budding doctor
It has been addressed before that many, many doctors lack the business skills to market themselves, nothing in med school prepare you for that and is certainly something that many doctor complain.
 
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hyperioncu said:
neverhtless, it has been discussed here before , that many people that go into a medicine career may lack the skill to endeavour in any other field, I disagree to some extent, but perhaps a proof of this , may be the "physicians in financial ruin and bankruptcy". I ignore the reasons that drove them to such precarious financial situation in which they find themselves now, but i will risk a bet saying that they have a complete ignorance of fundamental in finances.
Medical education just need people with will power, capable of learn by heart thousands of thousands of minutiae, that added together gives the complete pathologic picture. Many doctor have a remarkable memory, but they are unable to swim in the sea infested with sharks loans ready to take a bite at the budding doctor
It has been addressed before that many, many doctors lack the business skills to market themselves, nothing in med school prepare you for that and is certainly something that many doctor complain.
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The paragraph from the analyst in the other thread you quote above doesn't add much to your argument because I don't disagree with the sentiment that it is "hard" to do well in business, just that people who work hard enough to get into and through medical school tend to be squarely in that group on average. You may not have innate business savvy, but to some extent that is a learnable skill. (Doctors lack the business skills because it is never required to learn them on this path, which is a shortcoming of the schools, not an inability of the doctors, as I think you have suggested). I would suggest that if you spent your undergrad and beyond with the same focus and intensity as it takes to do well in medicine and beyond, you would have a far better and more lucrative choice of jobs than the "average". Neither route is an easy path, but folks on this path aren't looking for easy. Most of the people who go into other fields simply did not have the choice of that or medicine, and so the averages in these other fields is not comparable to the average who got into medicine -- the above average people who go into these other fields (those who got a choice between med and not) is what you really have to compare to. Medicine is somewhat unique in that it weeds out at an earlier juncture, and thus selects for people who demonstrate a certain kind of drive and intensity very early on that tends to get people far. Lots of average people can get into law and business, and don't go as far or get as highly paid, not really so in medicine --if you are average, you are sunk before you start.

This notion that a person who succeeds in the medical road tends to be someone who could succeed elsewhere is not really my idea -- it has been suggested by countless writers (Atul Gawande suggested something to this effect in a footnote to one of his articles). So you simply cannot compare averages of other fields to medicine. You compare the folks who could have chosen one or the other, which at best generally involves truncating the applicants to these other fields to a comparable sample size. And that tends to jump of these other fields averages impressively, eg you are thus likely comparing the success of the average physician to the average top law school grad or top jobs out of college in business. Because that is where many of the hardest working and most intense folks in college tend to gravitate, on average. I think as a career changer, I have some insight in what it takes to be successful in both these careers. And it really is largely the same thing.
 
i think we are going in circles, definitelly helped by your legal skills mr law2doc. The point is that no matter how you look at it, in raw numbers, those that become doctors ,which are most of the time those that really love the career, do get a renumerative reward. In comparison with other careers the biggest number or percentage of doctors are better off than the biggest percentage of people in any other field. No wonder that surgeon are at the head of the best paid career according to Forbes magazine.
Believe me , money should be a concern given the staggering loans that are taken, but love for medicine is my main drive. Coming from a family of doctors that were ultraoverworked and with a salary that was 10 000 times less than what doctors get paid here, to do what you love and on top of that get paid so handsomely for it, make any other concern risible. hence, the title of this post.
Somewhere in the world right now, there is a neurosurgeon that just will eat a meal a day.
 
Whatever happened to being happy with what you do?

Maybe this is because I just came back from reading the "Don't Become a Doctor" blog series (http://ifinding.blogspot.com/2007/08/dont-become-doctor.html), but it seems like a lot of people on here just piss and moan about how tough their life is, how much debt they are in, etc. etc. etc. Don't get me wrong, I believe you that medicine isn't all cushy like it is made out to be. I am sure you end up in debt, I'm sure you end up working obscenely long hours, and I'm sure you deal with situations that are much more emotionally heavy then what a white-collar cubicle worker has to deal with. I get all that.

What I don't get are the thick, cynical undertones lurking in the posts of a forum geared towards educating Pre-Meds. Tell us the ups, tell us the downs. Tell us what sucks, tell us what is coolest about your jobs that we oh-so-envy. But don't come on here with a chip on your shoulder and a violin in hand. I'd be willing to say that 50-60% of us Pre-Med folk have a decent idea of what hard, unappreciated labor feels like.

Every job has parts of it that suck. It is a fact of life. I recognize that as I am sure 50-60% of Pre-Meds on here also do. I didn't come here to see why your professional life sucks. In every profession there are stories and plenty of people eager to tell them. I came here to see why what you do is so interesting to me.
 
Lonelion87 said:
Whatever happened to being happy with what you do?

Maybe this is because I just came back from reading the "Don't Become a Doctor" blog series (http://ifinding.blogspot.com/2007/08/dont-become-doctor.html), but it seems like a lot of people on here just piss and moan about how tough their life is, how much debt they are in, etc. etc. etc. Don't get me wrong, I believe you that medicine isn't all cushy like it is made out to be. I am sure you end up in debt, I'm sure you end up working obscenely long hours, and I'm sure you deal with situations that are much more emotionally heavy then what a white-collar cubicle worker has to deal with. I get all that.

What I don't get are the thick, cynical undertones lurking in the posts of a forum geared towards educating Pre-Meds. Tell us the ups, tell us the downs. Tell us what sucks, tell us what is coolest about your jobs that we oh-so-envy. But don't come on here with a chip on your shoulder and a violin in hand. I'd be willing to say that 50-60% of us Pre-Med folk have a decent idea of what hard, unappreciated labor feels like.

Every job has parts of it that suck. It is a fact of life. I recognize that as I am sure 50-60% of Pre-Meds on here also do. I didn't come here to see why your professional life sucks. In every profession there are stories and plenty of people eager to tell them. I came here to see why what you do is so interesting to me.
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I just read an article on CNN or Time.com that said that 87% of Americans don't like their jobs. Go figure. Some of those people have to be doctors.

There are tons of people that like to b**** and moan about everything. If you don't look for the humor and the positive, you'll never get through the negative. This goes for any job or experience in life.

For example,
Was Peace Corps hard? Yes Were there days when all I wanted to do was sit in my house and cry? Yes Did I give up? No Was it an overall positive experience? yes
 
TheRealMD said:
I wish more people would have an opportunity to shadow residents. That's really where most people learn they either love or hate their job.
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This is really true, and some residents said no, they really don't like their job. One of them said they should've been a teacher. We would be at the hospital from 8am til 7pm some days, and that's without me taking call w/ them. Actually I was shadowing the attending and at times the residents would take me with them, but I stayed teh same times as them. Even the med students got to go home at a certain time. And when everyone hears you're premed the response is "Turn back now!" though I'm sure some of that is joking.
 
hyperioncu said:
Somewhere in the world right now, there is a neurosurgeon that just will eat a meal a day.
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Speaking of neurosurgeons, I just met with one who's a friend of the family the other day, and he was giving me some advice. He said that I probably already knew that physician compensation wasn't what it used to be, but he wanted to give his own situation as an example. His first year out of residency he made $300,000 (which he said was pretty ridiculous since he laughs at what little he knew then). Now, after umpteen years of experience (I'd put him in his mid-fifties), he says he makes $275,000. He said he saw colleagues of his go from making $700,000 to closer to $300,000 in a pretty short time. He said that about half of his bills are simply not collectable. But he LOVES what he does, and is still amazed every day that people actually let him open up their skull and mess with their brain (ok, not his words - mine). And my impression is that he takes on a number of patients that he knows won't be able to pay the bills. He talked about how rewarding it was regardless of the fact that for many of those cases he won't receive compensation for his services. But he's doing it because he loves what he does and it's the intangibles and those few truly grateful patients that really make it all worthwhile. He's successful and obviously makes a good living, and I'm no one to turn my nose up at $275,000, but I was a little surprised at the difference between his first year out, and the compensation made by a seasoned neurosurgeon. I'd heard things had really changed, but wow.
 
Jolie South said:
I just read an article on CNN or Time.com that said that 87% of Americans don't like their jobs. Go figure. Some of those people have to be doctors.
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I think the big difference though is that doctors are in the 10% or so with the education and intelligence to actually have a good range of choices. If you don't have a college degree you take whatever you can get. If you did poorly in college, you have a few more choices. But if you did great in college and have the ability to get into professional or graduate programs the world is your oyster. So it stands to reason that if you have these choices and still end up hating your job, you perhaps missed the boat. You have the ability to be in that 13% who like their jobs because you have the most choices open to you.

So do medicine if you think you will be interested by or like medicine. Do adequate research so you have a basis for this feeling. And don't do it for any other reason.
 
Law2Doc said:
I think the big difference though is that doctors are in the 10% or so with the education and intelligence to actually have a good range of choices. If you don't have a college degree you take whatever you can get. If you did poorly in college, you have a few more choices. But if you did great in college and have the ability to get into professional or graduate programs the world is your oyster. So it stands to reason that if you have these choices and still end up hating your job, you perhaps missed the boat. You have the ability to be in that 13% who like their jobs because you have the most choices open to you.

So do medicine if you think you will be interested by or like medicine. Do adequate research so you have a basis for this feeling. And don't do it for any other reason.
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I agree. I just meant to say that people like to complain. Positives aren't talked about nearly as much as negatives.

For example, during my Peace Corps service 100% of us talked about the negatives of our country, work, etc. We'd get together to talk about how bad we had it. Now, if I go back and ask any of them if it was a good experience, I'm sure 90% would say it was great; one of the best things they ever did.
 
hyperioncu said:
I’ve been reading this forum for the last two months and I am elated to have found it. I got enough information here to clear out many doubts and concerns I have. However, there is something that bugs me.

Over and over again people say that you shouldn’t do medicine for the money, because it is not worth it., that should do any other career that will give you as much or more money than medicine in a shorter period of time.
I think we pretty much all agree that medicine is a calling; you have to love it to spend so many years trying to become a doctor. It takes huge sacrifices, which at the end can be negligible since we are doing we love.
I don’t know when in my math class I fell sleep and miss the part of 150 000 being a small number, because frankly considering that just less than 10% people in the USA earn that amount, that is a huge number. Yes, you spend many years studying, inhibiting yourself from doing many things but I can tell you about entire counties where the average salary is under 35 000, and little change or increase is reported.
Let’s also consider that 150 000 is for the most part a starting salary, and business savvy doctors can negotiate a higher starting salary than their counterparts.
Another important topic I have read extensively here is getting and MBA or becoming a lawyer, maybe some lawyers and MBA can earn as much as a doctor, but those that can claim such numbers are a very lucky few, extremely few, while THE MOST PART of the doctors can definitely absolutely earn more than 150 000. You have to be very slow to get less than that.
Any doctor can earn easily more than 150 000, while very few lucky MBA get that or more, I would say that 20 % and I am probably being extremely generous with numbers. Lawyers can perhaps do much better than someone with a MBA, but the vast majority of lawyers don’t get the six figures salaries.
It is a fact and it will continue to be, that medicine is a great investment in your future with professional and remunerative satisfactions, which counteract most of the negative sides. It is not maybe what it used to be in the past, but nothing is like it used to be, nevertheless medicine continue to be one of the best careers for those that are willing to endure its strict training.
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No. No we don't.
 
I agree. I just meant to say that people like to complain. Positives aren't talked about nearly as much as negatives.

For example, during my Peace Corps service 100% of us talked about the negatives of our country, work, etc. We'd get together to talk about how bad we had it. Now, if I go back and ask any of them if it was a good experience, I'm sure 90% would say it was great; one of the best things they ever did.
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I know people complain (and this is exacerbated 1000-fold on the internet), but I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a bit sadistic that these disgruntled individuals go to Pre-Med forums to spread their poison. Maybe it is the way they choose to vent after a bad day? Either way, I think it really undermines the good you can find in this forum.

Like you said, the negative definitely circulates more than the positive here. But I wish there could be some way to end this cycle. This idea is a bit utopian. There are, however, contributors on here whose posts are worth their weight in gold (if posts had 'weight', but, you know what I mean!) and the 'Negative Nancys' make these contributors hard to find, and at times even hard to believe with the negative propaganda being so rampant.
 
hyperioncu said:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5480500

It's extremely difficult and unlikely to make a lot of money in business despite what you think. There is no field like medicine in which you are guaranteed job security, a six figure salary, respect, geographic flexibility and the ability to truly make a difference in people's lives. Yes, maybe the VP at Stanley' will make a 1 million per year but the odds of you becoming a surgical subspecialist earning 500K is far greater than anyone making VP. And remember, VP's get fired too.

You only read about the successes in the business world like how some dotcomer built a business from scratch. But you never hear about the millions who were fired, lost their venture capital or had their job outsourced to India. Most of your friends who get great jobs out of college working in the computer industry either lost their job to outsourcing or moved around several times; most of these guys are probably earning around the same salary they started with 5-7 years ago. 95% of all new businesses fail and there is a reason for that. When I read these posts, I just want to yell at these spoiled doctors because they have no idea how great they have it. You will never have to worry about losing your job in your mid-40's with kids in college the way most business guys worry.

I have to agree with you there. Everyone thinks there are easier ways to make money especially through business. However, business is not an easy path to tread on. My dad was a businessman and worked easily 12+ hours a day starting up. When he was at home, he was always thinking about business. What deals he should take, who might be stealing company money, what happens if tommorows shipment doesnt come in etc. He was literally working 24/7.

Having a degree from harvard also doesnt guarentee your business will be successful. We all know the numbers of businesses that fail and don't go anywhere.

Although the money prospect is a lot higher then any other job, it is an incredibly difficult journey towards that 200,000, 500,000, 1 mil, 2mil, 10mil, or 100 million dollars a year reward.
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Click to expand...
 
Lonelion87 said:
I know people complain (and this is exacerbated 1000-fold on the internet), but I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a bit sadistic that these disgruntled individuals go to Pre-Med forums to spread their poison. Maybe it is the way they choose to vent after a bad day? Either way, I think it really undermines the good you can find in this forum.

Like you said, the negative definitely circulates more than the positive here. But I wish there could be some way to end this cycle. This idea is a bit utopian. There are, however, contributors on here whose posts are worth their weight in gold (if posts had 'weight', but, you know what I mean!) and the 'Negative Nancys' make these contributors hard to find, and at times even hard to believe with the negative propaganda being so rampant.
Click to expand...

I would suggest that the negative viewpoints are more valuable than the positives. Medicine has both positives and negatives, but people come out of college bright eyed, idealistic and optimistic and are quick to gloss over the negatives. It's only natural that people are excited to embark down a new path to their future, and have high expectations. But it is actually a little dangerous to go down a long hard road with such a polyanna view.

With a lot of negative views out there, it forces folks to be more cautious and better research their decision. If you know how hard and imperfect the path is, that you won't be working bankers hours for tons of bling and never get sued or never spend hours doing paperwork or scut, or have tons of time for friends and family, etc you are better off. This isn't a path of perfection, it isn't the ideal job for everyone. It is a good job for some, if your goals and interests are realistically alligned. For others, it is a lot of work toward a target that is very different than you expect.

So I wouldn't be quick to fault the "negative nancys", -- you really should thank them for making you take a reality check. Because if you are cognizant of the negatives in the field you never are going to feel hoodwinked.
 
jsk070 said:
Everyone thinks there are easier ways to make money especially through business. However, business is not an easy path to tread on.
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Actually very few (or no) people are saying it's easy or easier. It's very hard. But this path ain't a party either. Medicine is not an easy road, and if you put forth that same effort in something else, you will frequently do well in that something else. That is what people are saying.
 
Lonelion87 said:
I know people complain (and this is exacerbated 1000-fold on the internet), but I guess what I am trying to say is that it is a bit sadistic that these disgruntled individuals go to Pre-Med forums to spread their poison. Maybe it is the way they choose to vent after a bad day? Either way, I think it really undermines the good you can find in this forum.

Like you said, the negative definitely circulates more than the positive here. But I wish there could be some way to end this cycle. This idea is a bit utopian. There are, however, contributors on here whose posts are worth their weight in gold (if posts had 'weight', but, you know what I mean!) and the 'Negative Nancys' make these contributors hard to find, and at times even hard to believe with the negative propaganda being so rampant.
Click to expand...

The truth is neither "poison" nor "propaganda" and you would be wise to consider some of the negative aspects of medical career before you find yourself so deep into it that it is impossible to extricate yourself. Without telling you whether I like medicine or not, I couldn't quit if I wanted to, unless of course I wanted to declare bankruptcy, default on my loans, lose my house, and suffer a few extra years of poverty getting re-established in my old career.

The post that are worth their weight in gold are the ones that give you a realistic view of medical school, residency, and private practice, not the ones that reinforce what you want to hear.

Jeez.
 
And it could just be that people complain because there is something to complain about.
 
Panda Bear said:
And it could just be that people complain because there is something to complain about.
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obviously there are low points, but people are still willing to enter the profession. it can't be 100% bad.

it's not like the military where they're lowering standards and paying people significant bonuses to enlist.
 
Law2Doc said:
Actually very few (or no) people are saying it's easy or easier. It's very hard. But this path ain't a party either. Medicine is not an easy road, and if you put forth that same effort in something else, you will frequently do well in that something else. That is what people are saying.
Click to expand...


Ahh I overlooked that one. However, I only have interest in the health sciences. And from what I've been taught as a young child, interest is key to happiness and doing well in your studies, and future profession.

I've sat through business class and dropped it immediatly. Same with political science and english for pre-law. I have no interest in it. Wish I had it so I can use the effort im exerting in the health sciences in order to make it in the corporate world >.<
 
Medicine has both positives and negatives, but people come out of college bright eyed, idealistic and optimistic and are quick to gloss over the negatives.
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Nah. I think you are putting a few groups together with that comment. Yes, I agree, there are some people who get carried away and don't have an accurate read on their situation, or the reality of their future options. You can find those people in these forums. You can also find people in here who have surveyed the risks involved and still maintain a positive and optimistic attitude. Do I know that medicine is a hard road? Yeah. Am I any less excited? Hell no.

So I wouldn't be quick to fault the "negative nancys", -- you really should thank them for making you take a reality check. Because if you are cognizant of the negatives in the field you never are going to feel hoodwinked.
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There is a line that can be crossed between offering a reality check and being just plain miserable. I would argue the motivations of the majority of disgruntled posters (I'm not implying you, Law2Doc) are not to politely inform over-anxious Pre-Meds of the harsh realities they are 'blindly' seeking, but rather vent their personal frustrations with a career they seem to be at odds with.

The post that are worth their weight in gold are the ones that give you a realistic view of medical school, residency, and private practice, not the ones that reinforce what you want to hear.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree with you Panda. I know things aren't going to be all rosy, and I recognize it as a part of the path I am on. I just choose not to dwell on the negative aspects; I will just take the punches as they come.

At the same time, the picture that a lot of these posters are painting is all negative. It isn't constructive. They aren't trying to be helpful. Beyond a few good points, all you can really discern from these people is that 'yeah, okay, not all doctors like their profession'. As I said in reply to Law2doc's post, you can be offering advice, or you can just be down-right cynical.
 
By the way, $150,000 per year is not a lot of money. You think it is now because most of you have never really broken the minimum wage barrier and, as you lack marketable skills, severely undervalue your time and your future skills. Whether the average American makes $40,000 per year is irrelevant to the discussion. Not a single one of you is going to walk into any job interview and, upon being presented with a higher salary, decline in favor of something closer to the average salary.

Most of you also can't really do the math, taking into account opportunity cost and the cost of debt. $150,000 per year after eight years of training puts your break-even point, compared to your peers with four-year degrees, sometime in 2030. Think about it.

Fortunately, most of you are going to grow out of your delusions over the next eight years or so as you slowly see what is involved in medical training and that your skills and knowledge are worth more than twenty bucks an hour. Half of the problem with the low pay in residency is that it is a complete sellers market on the part of the residency programs and they could pay nothing, or even charge you for training, and there would still be a line of people waiting to sell their mothers to get into medical school...but not if the pay keeps declining.

Would I have gone to medical school if the most I could expect was the low 100,000s as a salary? Heck no. I'd look at that kind of salary as a personal failure and not worth the sacrifice of the last six years (with 22 months to go...you see, I am close enough to the end to be able to start counting months). As has been pointed out, most of you with the drive and the intelligence to get into medical school have the drive and talent to do well at other things. I certainly could have topped the low $100,000s as a self employed engineer if I had put the same effort into the business as I have into medical training. You guys make it sound like medical students are a bunch of helpless naifs, unsuitable for any other thing except medical school or welfare.
 
Panda Bear said:
The truth is neither "poison" nor "propaganda" and you would be wise to consider some of the negative aspects of medical career before you find yourself so deep into it that it is impossible to extricate yourself. Without telling you whether I like medicine or not, I couldn't quit if I wanted to, unless of course I wanted to declare bankruptcy, default on my loans, lose my house, and suffer a few extra years of poverty getting re-established in my old career.

The post that are worth their weight in gold are the ones that give you a realistic view of medical school, residency, and private practice, not the ones that reinforce what you want to hear.

Jeez.
Click to expand...

Agreed. I don't like people who sugar coat things. I like people who are straight up and say what's really on their mind. I'd rather a doctor tell me why he doesn't like it rather then say it is the greatest thing on earth when he's really unhappy in reality.
 
Panda Bear said:
By the way, $150,000 per year is not a lot of money. You think it is now because most of you have never really broken the minimum wage barrier and, as you lack marketable skills, severely undervalue your time and your future skills.
Click to expand...

It's certainly a much smaller amount of money than you think it is when you are in undergrad. It always amuses me when people start focusing on things like "less than 10% people in the USA earn that amount". It's true, but fewer than 10% of the people in the US go through 4 years of post-college education, fewer than 10% of people carry 6 digit graduate student loans, and you will be working 3-7 years at a residency salary a whole lot closer to the average US household income, but at double the hours, before anyone even talks six digits to you.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's certainly a much smaller amount of money than you think it is when you are in undergrad. It always amuses me when people start focusing on things like "less than 10% people in the USA earn that amount". It's true, but fewer than 10% of the people in the US go through 4 years of post-college education, fewer than 10% of people carry 6 digit graduate student loans, and you will be working 3-7 years at a residency salary a whole lot closer to the average US household income, but at double the hours, before anyone even talks six digits to you.
Click to expand...

I agree with this post a lot. My biggest pet peeve is when people say "look at tihs person they are a millionaire and have a house and cars in a rich neighborhood" but they fail to recognize that those people have 6 digit fig. debts that they are still paying these debts off, they fail to see the amount of work they put in to gain their current career and salary status. This is especially seen in people who aren't in medicine and think its all glamorous big houses and fancy cars.
 
Panda, the low $100,000s isn't good enough for you eh?

The materialistic views you, and a couple of other posters in this thread, are displaying is disheartening.

It is just all about the money huh?
 
Lonelion87 said:
Panda, the low $100,000s isn't good enough for you eh?

The materialistic views you, and a couple of other posters in this thread, are displaying is disheartening.

It is just all about the money huh?
Click to expand...

well i've lived my entire life in san francisco, so anything less than $200k might as well be minimum wage.
 
Lonelion87 said:
Panda, the low $100,000s isn't good enough for you eh?

The materialistic views you, and a couple of other posters in this thread, are displaying is disheartening.

It is just all about the money huh?
Click to expand...

Oh please, get off your high horse :rolleyes:
 
i must say, i appreciate law2doc and panda bear's views and inside scoop on the current medical training, even if they are very negative.. after all, reality can hurt

but i also must say, i dont particularly enjoy reading law2doc and panda bear's complaint posts because, well, they make me depressed and really consider quitting

and lastly, i must say, law2doc and panda bear have chosen the best method in their individual power to decrease the number of pre-meds in this country.. by using the public forum, haha
 
jae9970 said:
and lastly, i must say, law2doc and panda bear have chosen the best method in their individual power to decrease the number of pre-meds in this country.. by using the public forum, haha
Click to expand...

We should absolutely lay the entire upcoming physician shortage at their door. Fess up guys. It's all you.
 
Lonelion87 said:
Panda, the low $100,000s isn't good enough for you eh?
Click to expand...

After 4 years of post graduate education, and 3-7 years of working for what basically amount to minimum wage (after 8 years of secondary schooling), at more than 80 hours per week, in a high stress job, after incurring 6 figure debt - yes, low $100,000 is not good enough.
 
Panda Bear said:
By the way, $150,000 per year is not a lot of money. You think it is now because most of you have never really broken the minimum wage barrier and, as you lack marketable skills, severely undervalue your time and your future skills. Whether the average American makes $40,000 per year is irrelevant to the discussion. Not a single one of you is going to walk into any job interview and, upon being presented with a higher salary, decline in favor of something closer to the average salary.
.
Click to expand...

$150,000 is a lot of money. What you meant to say that $150,000 after residency isn't that much.But the problem I have Dr. Panda is with your situation. Could you really be making 100,000 as an independent engineer? (which you often described as cushy). You said you made $70,000-$80,000 before you left and now you said you could have made $100,000 if you put the effort into it? So why didn't you? It seems finacially foolish to me that a 40 yr old man would leave a well paying career to go to 4years of no salary plus debt and 3 years of making $6 an hour while being abused.

Sure I can see someone making that choose if they were single but to do this when you have a wife and kids to support?

Also why does everyone point to Law and Business(which are not it health care)as careers that make more than doctors. When GP Dentists make more than their MD counterparts? CRNA's avg throughout the country is 140,000
 
hyperioncu said:
I’ve been reading this forum for the last two months and I am elated to have found it. I got enough information here to clear out many doubts and concerns I have. However, there is something that bugs me.

Over and over again people say that you shouldn’t do medicine for the money, because it is not worth it., that should do any other career that will give you as much or more money than medicine in a shorter period of time.
I think we pretty much all agree that medicine is a calling; you have to love it to spend so many years trying to become a doctor. It takes huge sacrifices, which at the end can be negligible since we are doing we love.
I don’t know when in my math class I fell sleep and miss the part of 150 000 being a small number, because frankly considering that just less than 10% people in the USA earn that amount, that is a huge number. Yes, you spend many years studying, inhibiting yourself from doing many things but I can tell you about entire counties where the average salary is under 35 000, and little change or increase is reported.
Let’s also consider that 150 000 is for the most part a starting salary, and business savvy doctors can negotiate a higher starting salary than their counterparts.
Another important topic I have read extensively here is getting and MBA or becoming a lawyer, maybe some lawyers and MBA can earn as much as a doctor, but those that can claim such numbers are a very lucky few, extremely few, while THE MOST PART of the doctors can definitely absolutely earn more than 150 000. You have to be very slow to get less than that.
Any doctor can earn easily more than 150 000, while very few lucky MBA get that or more, I would say that 20 % and I am probably being extremely generous with numbers. Lawyers can perhaps do much better than someone with a MBA, but the vast majority of lawyers don’t get the six figures salaries.
It is a fact and it will continue to be, that medicine is a great investment in your future with professional and remunerative satisfactions, which counteract most of the negative sides. It is not maybe what it used to be in the past, but nothing is like it used to be, nevertheless medicine continue to be one of the best careers for those that are willing to endure its strict training.
Click to expand...

Eh, the people who whine about the money not being enough are the people for whom their job is all about making as much money as they can. People looking for a non-financial reward in their career don't care as long as they're compensated fairly. Yes, time value of money makes primary care a bad investment compared to some other professions from a purely monetary standpoint, but personally I'd rather treat patients every day than write legal briefs or do accounting. Higher paid specialties do better of course. Anyone who thinks that they are going to struggle at 150K though, is out of his/her mind, or planning to overextend themselves. you're right, most of the population gets by just fine on 50K or less, as my family did most of my life. If you go into medicine you're gonna dedicate a lot of your time to that profession, make sure you're in it for the work, and not the money.
 
That's why you get your MD in Canada (much less expensive 5 digit total), and move to the US to get the better salary.
 
Omyss said:
That's why you get your MD in Canada (much less expensive 5 digit total), and move to the US to get the better salary.
Click to expand...

so true.

of course, it's supposedly a lot harder to get into canadian schools....
 
hyperioncu said:
I’ve been reading this forum for the last two months and I am elated to have found it. I got enough information here to clear out many doubts and concerns I have. However, there is something that bugs me.

Over and over again people say that you shouldn’t do medicine for the money, because it is not worth it., that should do any other career that will give you as much or more money than medicine in a shorter period of time.
I think we pretty much all agree that medicine is a calling; you have to love it to spend so many years trying to become a doctor. It takes huge sacrifices, which at the end can be negligible since we are doing we love.
I don’t know when in my math class I fell sleep and miss the part of 150 000 being a small number, because frankly considering that just less than 10% people in the USA earn that amount, that is a huge number. Yes, you spend many years studying, inhibiting yourself from doing many things but I can tell you about entire counties where the average salary is under 35 000, and little change or increase is reported.
Let’s also consider that 150 000 is for the most part a starting salary, and business savvy doctors can negotiate a higher starting salary than their counterparts.
Another important topic I have read extensively here is getting and MBA or becoming a lawyer, maybe some lawyers and MBA can earn as much as a doctor, but those that can claim such numbers are a very lucky few, extremely few, while THE MOST PART of the doctors can definitely absolutely earn more than 150 000. You have to be very slow to get less than that.
Any doctor can earn easily more than 150 000, while very few lucky MBA get that or more, I would say that 20 % and I am probably being extremely generous with numbers. Lawyers can perhaps do much better than someone with a MBA, but the vast majority of lawyers don’t get the six figures salaries.
It is a fact and it will continue to be, that medicine is a great investment in your future with professional and remunerative satisfactions, which counteract most of the negative sides. It is not maybe what it used to be in the past, but nothing is like it used to be, nevertheless medicine continue to be one of the best careers for those that are willing to endure its strict training.
Click to expand...

"Medicine is not a lucrative profession. It's a divine one."

I forgot who told that quote but i like the way it defines the field of medicine.
I want to be a Doctor not just because of the salary or whatever...

It could be a calling like you said...:)
 
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