Personal Crises, low GPA... please help!

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Eigenkitty

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Hi everyone,

I'm sure you've all been bored to death by these panicky posts from undergrads with low GPAs, but please bear with me. I would really appreciate your advice.

I'm a female, Math and Biology major at a very competitive science and engineering school on the West Coast. My first year of college, I was stalked and received numerous death threats. My college's administration placed me off-campus for awhile to keep me safe. My second year of college, my best friend committed suicide in front of me (albeit unsuccessfully). Everyone's advice to me since these crises began was to take some time off, relax, and recuperate. However, I was not going to let these external circumstances dictate my academic and personal goals. I fought my way through my school's extremely rigorous core requirements, including engineering courses, physics courses (quantum, SR, E&M, classical--all calc-based), math courses (finished calc sequence, DEs, LinAl, etc). At the same time, I continued my research and volunteer work. Unfortunately, despite all of my drive, my GPA did suffer. Currently, it is sub-3.0.

Now what can I do? I'm a junior now and am positive that my GPA will improve. Still, I can't see my GPA evening out to more than a 3.0-3.3 in the end.

What is some practical advice? Maybe it was a bad idea to come to this school in the first place because it prepares more hard-science students than premeds, but I wanted the challenge and have learned more than I could ever imagine. I'm also more than prepared for doing well on the MCATs and plan on taking it Summer 2011.

Will I be able to explain away my first two years? My school's deans are more than happy to write letters to explain the problems I was forced to deal with. Would that be useful? Do admissions committees even care?

Please help! Thank you so much for your time.
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yikes... time to page LizzyM
FotoFlexer_Photo.jpg


sorry about your circumstances
 
Wow. Our situations are very similar, although my GPA is a little higher and I'm a senior.

The best advice I got was from a peer adviser of all people. He told me to look at my stats and decide if I was comfortable applying with the GPA I had. If I felt competitive enough, I should go for it. If not, there was no shame in waiting another year.

Your primary app is really there to get you in the door. My adviser pointed out that if a school likes your primary enough, there will be ample opportunity in the secondary to explain your circumstances. She also said that LORs from people who a) are aware of your situation and b) believe in you/your abilities can help get you where you need to be.

My best advice is to just step back and look at yourself and your application stats. Try to see it as someone else. Does this person have impressive ECs? How's the cGPA vs sGPA? Are the LORs going to be mediocre or glowing? Does the PS indicate this person will do well in medicine or not? Is the (realistically predicted) MCAT score impressive? With 5000ish other primaries to sift through, does this application warrant even a second glance? It's tough to look at it that way, but sometimes it's necessary.

I hope LizzyM can help out with this one. I want to see what she says too.
 
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Adcoms will understand and take your circumstances into consideration. However, keep in mind that many others also have dealt with difficulties and many may have ended up with much better GPAs.
 
Well, the GPA from my 1st and 2nd year of college (3 semesters, since our first semester is P/F), is based on purely science classes...because I go to a science school. So right now, my cGPA = my sGPA. With all medical school applications, my school sends a letter explaining our GPA system as well as our curriculum requirements because medical school admissions are so GPA-centric. Unfortunately, they practice "grade deflation" here, which poses a problem for students like me.

I don't know if it is fair to say that many others have dealt with the same difficulties and have ended up with better GPAs. Although this technically may be true, it is very rare that students from my college graduate with "better GPAs" regardless of their situation. For students at my school that deal with difficulties, it is standard protocol to put them on a leave-of-absence because it is impossible to do well here if you are dealing with non-academic hardships. 96% of our premed students are admitted into medical school, most with sub-3.5 GPAs. So, I am proud of what I have accomplished. For reasons of confidentiality and objectivity, I tried to be vague about what my circumstances were. However, the deans here have told me that they'd never seen a student be forced to deal with so much, all at once. All while taking upwards of 18 credits a semester. I am grateful to be where I am, but I want to now know what I must do to get where I want to be.

To give others a better understanding of the other dimensions of my application, I am heavily involved in research (have been for the past 5 years). I have a number of publications in my field of interest. I also do social and humanitarian work related to my research. I am confident that I will have stellar LORs because my professors understand all that I have been through and they have seen me grow--they want to see me actualize my dreams. So really, the major concern of mine is my GPA and whether or not it will totally ruin my chances. I still have two years here and now that my school's core requirements are out of the way, I will be able to excel.

I understand admission to medical school immediately after undergraduate education is a challenge, for anyone. So I recognize that I may need to take an alternate route if the traditional one does not work out. I am open to all advice! Thanks again to everyone!
 
I'm sorry to hear you went through such difficult times, but the fact that you were able to get through it is a testament to your determination and dedication to becoming a physician. While you will have the opportunity to explain your dip in grades when applying to medical school, there are schools that may screen you out due to a low gpa. At this point all you can do is look forward and make sure you get great grades, by the time you graduate your best bet may be either to get a master's and ace the classes or apply to only DO schools. If you end up getting a stellar MCAT, you may be able to apply and get in with a 3.3 GPA, but it will be an uphill battle. I applaud you for your steadfast persistence and wish you the best of luck.
 
I think it honestly comes down to which schools you are interested in. Some focus on GPA/MCAT scores more than others. Try to do some research and find out which schools are more receptive to students who have extenuating circumstances and/or are not as focused on the numbers. With that being said though, you should try all you can to bring up that GPA because a sub-3.0 puts you in dangerous waters. There is only so much glowing LORs can do. Though you did go through some really traumatic things, like someone else said, you have to look at your app through the eyes of the adcom. They have thousands to go through and there will be people who have gone through things just as traumatic as you and and if they managed to do better, numbers wise, than you do, then you would most likely be out of luck. Unless your story really hits home to someone and they feel compelled to push for you. But do you really want to bank on that?
 
Eigenkitty said:
Well, the GPA from my 1st and 2nd year of college (3 semesters, since our first semester is P/F), is based on purely science classes...because I go to a science school. So right now, my cGPA = my sGPA. With all medical school applications, my school sends a letter explaining our GPA system as well as our curriculum requirements because medical school admissions are so GPA-centric. Unfortunately, they practice "grade deflation" here, which poses a problem for students like me.

I don't know if it is fair to say that many others have dealt with the same difficulties and have ended up with better GPAs. Although this technically may be true, it is very rare that students from my college graduate with "better GPAs" regardless of their situation. For students at my school that deal with difficulties, it is standard protocol to put them on a leave-of-absence because it is impossible to do well here if you are dealing with non-academic hardships. 96% of our premed students are admitted into medical school, most with sub-3.5 GPAs. So, I am proud of what I have accomplished. For reasons of confidentiality and objectivity, I tried to be vague about what my circumstances were. However, the deans here have told me that they'd never seen a student be forced to deal with so much, all at once. All while taking upwards of 18 credits a semester. I am grateful to be where I am, but I want to now know what I must do to get where I want to be.

To give others a better understanding of the other dimensions of my application, I am heavily involved in research (have been for the past 5 years). I have a number of publications in my field of interest. I also do social and humanitarian work related to my research. I am confident that I will have stellar LORs because my professors understand all that I have been through and they have seen me grow--they want to see me actualize my dreams. So really, the major concern of mine is my GPA and whether or not it will totally ruin my chances. I still have two years here and now that my school's core requirements are out of the way, I will be able to excel.

I understand admission to medical school immediately after undergraduate education is a challenge, for anyone. So I recognize that I may need to take an alternate route if the traditional one does not work out. I am open to all advice! Thanks again to everyone!
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I didn't read this post before making a post of my own. I'm sure your school is known for its rigor, but I question the source of that statistic; if it's self reported I would not take it at face value.

It's true not everyone has gone through what you have; but there is no rubric for standardizing everyone's scores based on the difficulties they've encountered during their lives. While you're more than a number, you still have the make the cut on paper before med schools will look at you.
 
It was a number my premed advisor provided to me, but I too can't really trust it. My school is very small and has less than 10 premed students in each year. I will ask him for more specifics about that number though.

In regards to this cutoff, is it really as simple as if you're below this number (combined GPA + MCAT), we won't take a look at your application? Are things such as institution, major, or circumstances even acknowledged at that point? I hear things from all over the spectrum: that adcoms are brutal or that they can be compassionate. I plan to apply to MD programs in the US only, but more likely MD/PhD since medical research is my passion. Do medical schools really only care about the numbers? Is a student with a 3.7+ that took mostly non-science classes a more desirable candidate for medical school than a student with a 3.3+ that loaded up on hard science? Who would make the cut-off?

This may sound cheesy, but I've always had a dream to save the world and help humanity. I've been obsessed with MSF and PIH since I was a tot! This is my calling and I'm afraid that because of some unfortunate things that have happened, my chances at accomplishing all that I want to do are slim to none. I want to go to a top school and be a well-recognized physician-scientist and humanitarian some day.

Thanks again for all of your advice and encouragement. I really appreciate it! Studentdoctor.net is turning out to be a really great resource.
 
Eigenkitty said:
It was a number my premed advisor provided to me, but I too can't really trust it. My school is very small and has less than 10 premed students in each year. I will ask him for more specifics about that number though.

In regards to this cutoff, is it really as simple as if you're below this number (combined GPA + MCAT), we won't take a look at your application? Are things such as institution, major, or circumstances even acknowledged at that point? I hear things from all over the spectrum: that adcoms are brutal or that they can be compassionate. I plan to apply to MD programs in the US only, but more likely MD/PhD since medical research is my passion. Do medical schools really only care about the numbers? Is a student with a 3.7+ that took mostly non-science classes a more desirable candidate for medical school than a student with a 3.3+ that loaded up on hard science? Who would make the cut-off?

This may sound cheesy, but I've always had a dream to save the world and help humanity. I've been obsessed with MSF and PIH since I was a tot! This is my calling and I'm afraid that because of some unfortunate things that have happened, my chances at accomplishing all that I want to do are slim to none. I want to go to a top school and be a well-recognized physician-scientist and humanitarian some day.

Thanks again for all of your advice and encouragement. I really appreciate it! Studentdoctor.net is turning out to be a really great resource.
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don't have to go to a 'top school' to be a well recognized physician scientist and humanitarian.. given your academic record it's probably good idea to shelve this thought to spare yourself potential letdown in the future..
 
I think it varies by school, but the general consensus seems to be that the non-science major with the significantly higher GPA will have a higher chance to get in

but I'm sure there are exceptions
 
Gloves said:
I think it varies by school, but the general consensus seems to be that the non-science major with the significantly higher GPA will have a higher chance to get in

but I'm sure there are exceptions
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Heck, there is at least one school (I've heard that there may be more than one) that admits humanities majors who haven't taken o-chem or the MCAT!

That aside, yes, some schools are number ******. On the other hand, even the number ****** will take into consideration the major & the grade deflation at some schools that are well known to them.

OP, find out where the last 30 pre-meds at your school got in. Those are schools that know your undergrad school and that might be more open to your application. Work hard to bring that gpa up and also squeeze in some classes in social science, humanities (philosophy, literature), and even arts in the next year.... you might also consider taking a gap year so that you are applying with 4 years of gpa rather than 3. I'd also suggest a long-term overseas gig to be sure that it is your cup of tea (at least 4 mos, a year would be better, Peace Corps or a similar thing would be excellent which would delay med school by 3 yrs but give you a world of experience & make the underclassman gpa so far in the past that it will be put in context).

Just a few thoughts. Good luck!
 
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I have already done a 4 month overseas gig, which included both research and humanitarian work. I absolutely loved it and it really sealed the deal for me.

So my underclassmen GPA has made it impossible to get into a top school? Would taking a 5th year be helpful to me? How about getting a Masters? Is there anyway I can be more proactive about helping my chances or is there anyone I should talk to?

I refuse to believe that two years of really unfortunate circumstances and an inevitably low GPA could take away from me something that I've spent my entire life working for. Is medical school just really not for us "flawed" students that work blood, sweat, and tears to become a doctor? How do medical schools expect to produce humanistic doctors if what they're asking for are robots?!

I am willing to do anything and everything for this.
 
Eigenkitty said:
I am willing to do anything and everything for this.
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Except, apparently, going to a non-"top" school. Sorry for your past problems, but your sense of entitlement to what you feel you are somehow owed could use a recalibration. Unfortunately, there are a whole bunch of 3.9/37 applicants who are as "humanistic" as you.
 
LizzyM said:
OP, find out where the last 30 pre-meds at your school got in. Those are schools that know your undergrad school and that might be more open to your application.
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How can someone find out that kind of information?? Of course, I'm sure the pre-health office at my school probably has that kind of information, but I guess if students don't tell where they were admitted, then maybe they don't.
Is there an on-line way??
 
I am not entitled to anything and would like to work hard to get what I want, which would be to get into a top medical school. If that is impossible, obviously I will set the bar lower. However, right now my concern is what I can do to work away my underclassman GPA. I want to know whether it is possible and if there are additional steps I will need to take, other than improving my GPA significantly over these next 2 years.

I definitely have a number of problems with medical school admissions and the process as a whole. Problems arising from both personal beliefs and just how much I am getting screwed over.

Again everyone, thanks for all the advice.
 
Nessy said:
How can someone find out that kind of information?? Of course, I'm sure the pre-health office at my school probably has that kind of information, but I guess if students don't tell where they were admitted, then maybe they don't.
Is there an on-line way??
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It is very likely that the prehealth office has that information, particularly if the school is bragging about 96% acceptance (which I'd suspect means very few applicants and/or a pre-med office that actively discourages weak applicants and perhaps some creative accounting with the denominator such as only counting those who have a LOR from the pre-med office and cherry-picking who gets a letter).
 
Eigenkitty said:
I have already done a 4 month overseas gig, which included both research and humanitarian work. I absolutely loved it and it really sealed the deal for me.

So my underclassmen GPA has made it impossible to get into a top school? Would taking a 5th year be helpful to me? How about getting a Masters? Is there anyway I can be more proactive about helping my chances or is there anyone I should talk to?

I refuse to believe that two years of really unfortunate circumstances and an inevitably low GPA could take away from me something that I've spent my entire life working for. Is medical school just really not for us "flawed" students that work blood, sweat, and tears to become a doctor? How do medical schools expect to produce humanistic doctors if what they're asking for are robots?!

I am willing to do anything and everything for this.
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Why a "top school"? Do you really thing that a school where the average gpa is 3.7 and the average MCAT is 35 (>90th percentile) and where research is king is the best place for you to study medicine? Why do you think that such a school would be a good fit for you? Are you a Californian? If so, are you willing to leave California and resettle elsewhere for a chance to go to medical school?

If your current gpa is <3.0, even with two perfect years you aren't going to get your gpa to anything better than a 3.49 or there abouts....

A masters degree will do nothing for your undergraduate gpa. If you have something exceptional in the humanitarian relief section, such as full time work for a year or two after graduation, then the undergrad gpa is perhaps less critical, particularly if you have a strong upward trend (a 4.0 in the last two years would be very good). A coulple of years f/t in a lab with funding, presentations, maybe publications would be another alternative that might get you some looks...

All hope is not lost but you have a steep hill to climb. Next time, if you get the advice to take time off and get away from a bad situation, take it... sometimes the people giving that advice have seen the alternative and are making those recommendations with your best interest in mind. Life's handed you lemons ... you've got to throw 'em back and hope that the next two years are sweet.
 
:hijacked:
Eigenkitty said:
my best friend committed suicide in front of me (albeit unsuccessfully).
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Please, don't use the word "successfully" or "unsuccessfully" when discussing suicide. A completed suicide is not a "success" and a suicide attempt that does not result in death is not "unsuccessful".

In the future, you might write, "my best friend attempted suicide right in front of me..." to make the same point.
 
LizzyM said:
It is very likely that the prehealth office has that information, particularly if the school is bragging about 96% acceptance (which I'd suspect means very few applicants and/or a pre-med office that actively discourages weak applicants and perhaps some creative accounting with the denominator such as only counting those who have a LOR from the pre-med office and cherry-picking who gets a letter).
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Interesting......thanks for your input LizzyM
However I go to a very large undergraduate university where many students, particularly in the large pre-med classes are just another face.
I do have a committee letter, but there is no followup that I'm aware of. If I am so fortunate to have an acceptance, I will thank them, of course and that is how they will know, but the letter is about as far as they take matters with us.
 
Eigenkitty said:
I am not entitled to anything and would like to work hard to get what I want, which would be to get into a top medical school. If that is impossible, obviously I will set the bar lower. However, right now my concern is what I can do to work away my underclassman GPA. I want to know whether it is possible and if there are additional steps I will need to take, other than improving my GPA significantly over these next 2 years.

I definitely have a number of problems with medical school admissions and the process as a whole. Problems arising from both personal beliefs and just how much I am getting screwed over.

Again everyone, thanks for all the advice.
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:eyebrow:
 
Eigenkitty said:
I am not entitled to anything and would like to work hard to get what I want, which would be to get into a top medical school. If that is impossible, obviously I will set the bar lower. However, right now my concern is what I can do to work away my underclassman GPA. I want to know whether it is possible and if there are additional steps I will need to take, other than improving my GPA significantly over these next 2 years.

I definitely have a number of problems with medical school admissions and the process as a whole. Problems arising from both personal beliefs and just how much I am getting screwed over.

Again everyone, thanks for all the advice.
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You're not getting 'screwed over'. This is life: bad stuff happens. You're only 'screwed over' if your work is plagiarized (and you can't prove it was yours) or a professor with a vendetta against you campaigns to have you expelled/gives you grades far below those you earned. And seriously, you are not in the worst situation. Some of us have been through the same as you (or worse) and still maintained decent GPAs.

My advice for the immediate future is this: do your best to raise your GPA and don't beat yourself up for not handling yourself well in those stressful situations. If your stats look too poor, enter a postbac/grad program and improve them. Get counseling if necessary (the things you've been through usually warrant it), and learn how to successfully manage major sources of stress so this kind of thing doesn't have to happen again. And keep your goals in mind so you always know your motivation.

Good luck! I hope things work out for you.
 
I have a low gpa, (3.3), and a 38S MCAT. Let me make it clear to you. Apply to whatever "top" schools you want. Expect to get rejected by every one of them, if you can get a secondary in there, I would call that a success. I have a low gpa due to internal conflicts that I struggled with my two years of undergrad before I turned things around.
All the top schools are elitists, they prefer the typical 3.9/40S applicant with some research, shadowing, good lor's etc who did their undergrad at Harvard or Princeton. HMS, Stanford, Columbia P and S, don't give two *hits about people like us. Im definitely going to apply to some top schools, because I would love to go there, but I know that med school adcoms at HMS aren't going to care why my GPA was low my first two years of undergrad, no matter how good my personal statement will be. Though I completely sympathize with you, realize that the world isn't a fair place, and med school admissions is just one of the many proofs of that statement.
Now jst because you can't get into HMS, or UPenn, doesn't mean you can't get into any med school, it doesn't mean you can't be a doctor…..
 
LizzyM said:
Why a "top school"? Do you really thing that a school where the average gpa is 3.7 and the average MCAT is 35 (>90th percentile) and where research is king is the best place for you to study medicine? Why do you think that such a school would be a good fit for you? Are you a Californian? If so, are you willing to leave California and resettle elsewhere for a chance to go to medical school?
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Yes, that would be a good fit for me since I'm incredibly passionate about research. I want a chance to learn from the best and also have the resources to pursue the kinds of research I'm interested in. I also flourish in big cities, so going to a medical school in or near a major urban center is important to me. When I say top medical school, that is what I am referring to. It does not mean I need to get into Harvard Med (though that would be nice).

Does having a sub-3.0 GPA at an engineering college, while dealing with the kinds of personal problems I had, really make me seem stupid or incompetent? I don't know about at other schools, but typically less than 15 students graduate from here with a 3.7 or above. I know that I can be competitive at a top medical school. My underclassman GPA is not representative of what I am capable of, which I will prove through these next two years. Is there no way for me to explain this all to admissions? No way to make amends? What if I took an extra year here?

And no, I am not a Californian. I'm a New Yorker.
 
Eigenkitty said:
Yes, that would be a good fit for me since I'm incredibly passionate about research. I want a chance to learn from the best and also have the resources to pursue the kinds of research I'm interested in. I also flourish in big cities, so going to a medical school in or near a major urban center is important to me. When I say top medical school, that is what I am referring to. It does not mean I need to get into Harvard Med (though that would be nice).

Does having a sub-3.0 GPA at an engineering college, while dealing with the kinds of personal problems I had, really make me seem stupid or incompetent? I don't know about at other schools, but typically less than 15 students graduate from here with a 3.7 or above. I know that I can be competitive at a top medical school. My underclassman GPA is not representative of what I am capable of, which I will prove through these next two years. Is there no way for me to explain this all to admissions? No way to make amends? What if I took an extra year here?

And no, I am not a Californian. I'm a New Yorker.
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No, at least not to the top schools. You need to come back to your senses, everyone wants to go to a top school, but as I mentioned before, they only admit a certain profile of people. Since we don't match that profile, we won't get in. I know that I could do well at a top school too if given the chance, but the world isn't fair, and med school adcoms are robots. I think everyone here would agree that whatever happened to you sucks, but I would say focus on becoming a doctor, not getting into Harvard.
 
Playa said:
No, at least not to the top schools. You need to come back to your senses, everyone wants to go to a top school, but as I mentioned before, they only admit a certain profile of people. Since we don't match that profile, we won't get in. I know that I could do well at a top school too if given the chance, but the world isn't fair, and med school adcoms are robots.
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lol simmer down cowboy
 
Eigenkitty said:
Yes, that would be a good fit for me since I'm incredibly passionate about research. I want a chance to learn from the best and also have the resources to pursue the kinds of research I'm interested in. I also flourish in big cities, so going to a medical school in or near a major urban center is important to me. When I say top medical school, that is what I am referring to. It does not mean I need to get into Harvard Med (though that would be nice).

Does having a sub-3.0 GPA at an engineering college, while dealing with the kinds of personal problems I had, really make me seem stupid or incompetent? I don't know about at other schools, but typically less than 15 students graduate from here with a 3.7 or above. I know that I can be competitive at a top medical school. My underclassman GPA is not representative of what I am capable of, which I will prove through these next two years. Is there no way for me to explain this all to admissions? No way to make amends? What if I took an extra year here?

And no, I am not a Californian. I'm a New Yorker.
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Sorry to say this, but get your head out of the clouds. Yes, a 3.0 (much less <3.0) pretty much takes you out of the running for just about every med school in the U.S., much less "the top medical schools." Even with extenuating circumstances, only a few of the low to mid-tier schools would give you serious consideration. The others could care less for your circumstances and why shouldn't they? With the thousands of applicants the average school gets, they could probably fill an entire class with people who had worse circumstances than you AND achieved a better GPA.

'm a female, Math and Biology major at a very competitive science and engineering school on the West Coast. My first year of college, I was stalked and received numerous death threats. My college's administration placed me off-campus for awhile to keep me safe. My second year of college, my best friend committed suicide in front of me (albeit unsuccessfully). Everyone's advice to me since these crises began was to take some time off, relax, and recuperate.
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I totally get that these are major issues. I get that they are huge stressors. Stalking is a serious matter as are death threats, but others have experienced them. Likewise, your best friend having SI and an SA is definitely a big deal. Nonetheless, many, many, many people go through this every year. I have had (as patients) premeds (as well as med students) who got to the point of a suicide attempt themselves and still managed to pull out and achieve good grades (at least at the time they were my patients; I have no way nor desire to follow up on that after d/c).

Life is full of stress. Getting a below-average (for a school) GPA is simply unacceptable for someone wishing to enter medicine. Additionally, lacking the judgment to know when to pull out and/or when your coping skills are beginning to fail and/or when to get help is not exactly impressive to adcoms (or future employers). I speak on this from experience. I was actually recently there. I took another clinical job along w/ a very heavy courseload. It put me at over 100 hrs/wk of work (52 for school + 49 for work). When other stressors (family, etc.) were added onto that, I found out I had exceeded my limit and had to meet w/ my unit's director and she allowed me to quit effective immediately w/ a recommendation to return once other things had settled and school was done. Honestly, we all hit our limit and had I not recognized and responded in time, I could have ended up in a similar situation to where you are now. You have to learn when it's time to pull out. If you're feeling stressed due to being stalked and there's an issue w/ your best friend, maybe you need to pull back from school or another obligation before you hurt things there (e.g., fail a class). If your best friend's SI and mood d/o (or psychosis or whatever) is making it impossible for you to do well in classes, maybe you need to set some solid boundaries w/ her. Not knowing when you might collapse is a recipe for disastor and every med school knows their students must be able to handle stressors well. Showing you could not do that is not likely to bode well as an explanation for very low grades.
 
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Eigenkitty said:
Yes, that would be a good fit for me since I'm incredibly passionate about research. I want a chance to learn from the best and also have the resources to pursue the kinds of research I'm interested in. I also flourish in big cities, so going to a medical school in or near a major urban center is important to me. When I say top medical school, that is what I am referring to. It does not mean I need to get into Harvard Med (though that would be nice).

Does having a sub-3.0 GPA at an engineering college, while dealing with the kinds of personal problems I had, really make me seem stupid or incompetent? I don't know about at other schools, but typically less than 15 students graduate from here with a 3.7 or above. I know that I can be competitive at a top medical school. My underclassman GPA is not representative of what I am capable of, which I will prove through these next two years. Is there no way for me to explain this all to admissions? No way to make amends? What if I took an extra year here?

And no, I am not a Californian. I'm a New Yorker.
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So, urban schools:
SUNY Brooklyn
New York Medical College (suburban but close to NYC)
Jefferson
Drexel
Tufts
Boston U.
SUNY StonyBrook (depending on how you feel about LI)
SUNY Buffalo (major urban center?? certainly gritty enough)

there may be others.... none of these is "top tier" but all of them have research opportunities for students and will get you where you want to go.
 
apumic said:
Sorry to say this, but get your head out of the clouds. Yes, a 3.0 (much less <3.0) pretty much takes you out of the running for just about every med school in the U.S., much less "the top medical schools." Even with extenuating circumstances, only a few of the low to mid-tier schools would give you serious consideration. The others could care less for your circumstances and why shouldn't they? With the thousands of applicants the average school gets, they could probably fill an entire class with people who had worse circumstances than you AND achieved a better GPA.

I totally get that these are major issues. I get that they are huge stressors. Stalking is a serious matter as are death threats, but others have experienced them. Likewise, your best friend having SI and an SA is definitely a big deal. Nonetheless, many, many, many people go through this every year. I have had (as patients) premeds (as well as med students) who got to the point of a suicide attempt themselves and still managed to pull out and achieve good grades (at least at the time they were my patients; I have no way nor desire to follow up on that after d/c).

Life is full of stress. Getting a below-average (for a school) GPA is simply unacceptable for someone wishing to enter medicine. Additionally, lacking the judgment to know when to pull out and/or when your coping skills are beginning to fail and/or when to get help is not exactly impressive to adcoms (or future employers). I speak on this from experience. I was actually recently there. I took another clinical job along w/ a very heavy courseload. It put me at over 100 hrs/wk of work (52 for school + 49 for work). When other stressors (family, etc.) were added onto that, I found out I had exceeded my limit and had to meet w/ my unit's director and she allowed me to quit effective immediately w/ a recommendation to return once other things had settled and school was done. Honestly, we all hit our limit and had I not recognized and responded in time, I could have ended up in a similar situation to where you are now. You have to learn when it's time to pull out. If you're feeling stressed due to being stalked and there's an issue w/ your best friend, maybe you need to pull back from school or another obligation before you hurt things there (e.g., fail a class). If your best friend's SI and mood d/o (or psychosis or whatever) is making it impossible for you to do well in classes, maybe you need to set some solid boundaries w/ her. Not knowing when you might collapse is a recipe for disastor and every med school knows their students must be able to handle stressors well. Showing you could not do that is not likely to bode well as an explanation for very low grades.
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Well she isn't at HYP with a 4.0/40S, so those HMS robots won't really care what she has been through, and what she is going to achieve. You would have a much better chance of getting into a top med school if your a URM, otherwise you should've been the ideal "Harvard" student. If not then tough luck, the only thing that they would want out of you is your application $$.

I agree, I think she should just let her best friend attempt to kill herself and study for her chemistry exam instead. That makes sense because doctors never help people in need&#8230;..oh wait.

$hit happens, I was suicidal and depressed at one point but managed to pull myself out of that. I maybe to stupid for HMS because of it but I don't give a $hit. Seriously stop worrying about getting into a top med school, they really don't care about people who have been through $hit (excluding URM's) if their GPA/MCAT/Uni Ranks are sub par. There are still plenty of good schools that will train you to become a great doctor. If your worried that people will look down upon you, or treat you differently because you didn't go to a "top" school, then my diagnosis is to kick them in the crotch :).
 
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Playa said:
Well she isn't at HYP with a 4.0/40S, so those HMS robots won't really care what she has been through, and what she is going to achieve. You would have a much better chance of getting into a top med school if your a URM, otherwise you should've been the ideal "Harvard" student. If not then tough luck, the only thing that they would want out of you is your application $$.

I agree, I think she should ignore the fact that her best friend was attempting to kill herself and study for her chemistry exam instead. That makes sense.

$hit happens, I was suicidal and depressed at one point but managed to pull myself out of that. I maybe to stupid for HMS because of it but I don't give a $hit. Seriously stop worrying about getting into a top med school, they really don't care about people who have been through $hit (excluding URM's) if their GPA/MCAT/Uni Ranks are sub par. There are still plenty of good schools that will train you to become a great doctor. If your worried that people will look down upon you, or treat you differently because you didn't go to a "top" school, then my diagnosis is to kick them in the crotch :).
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Spongebob_u_mad.jpg
 
Playa said:
I agree, I think she should just let her best friend attempt to kill herself and study for her chemistry exam instead. That makes sense because doctors never help people in need…..oh wait.
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There's a difference between setting solid boundaries and not helping someone in need. Most SAs are precipitated by major stressors and often, for people who are unsuccessful, it is more of an attn-seeking issue than a true desire to do oneself in. If the precipitating circumstances caused the friend to become an emotional burden on the OP to the point where it was causing the OP undue stress and unacceptable loss of performance in other areas of her life, then the OP would likely have benefited from referring the friend to a mental health professional. If, OTOH, it was the post-SA stress that caused the loss in performance, the OP should have found help for her own mental health. We all have our limits and not taking care of yourself first is going to lead to a very short-lived and/or unhappy career in medicine (or healthcare in general).
 
you see this is why most pre meds don't have a social life so they won't face these situations
 
OP, I just wanted to re-iterate what everyone else is saying. You are not out of the running for accomplishing your long term goals, if those goals are to become a well-known physician-researcher. Yes, it may not be quite as easy of a road as if you were to have gone to Harvard, but you can still do great things. No matter where you go, if you blow away Step I and Step II (and based on your comments about being more academically gifted than your GPA shows, that should be a possibility) you'll have a good shot at a great residency. Maybe select a medical school that allows you to do a year of research. Get in at an academic hospital. Publish like crazy. In the end, everyone will be more worried about your publication record, residency, and Step scores than where you went to medical school. Use that to your advantage, and be the 'big fish in a small pond' instead of the 'medium fish in an ocean.'
 
Thanks everyone for all the input.

Just to point something out, I'm human and not infallible... I understand now that I was being too stubborn, and probably needed a semester off. However, I learned from that mistake and I've become stronger because of it. Dealing with the problems that I have faced, I've learned a lot about myself and other people. Before certain incidents in my first two years of colleges, I didn't really know what failure felt like. My experiences have really motivated me and have even made me a stronger student. I've recovered. Now I'm focused on making up for my troubled times. I know that wherever I go, I will be able to accomplish my goals. However, it's hard not to get paranoid as a premed. Reading things, hearing horror stories.. nowadays it seems like the medical school admissions process is more scrutinizing than a presidential campaign! It's also hard not to avoid the attitude that respected, successful doctors only come from well-known universities...

Should I consider taking an extra year to graduate? I am majoring in Math and Bio, so the extra time would actually be great because I'd be able to take most of the electives I otherwise would not have time to take. It would also give me enough of a boost to make my GPA more average.
 
Eigenkitty said:
Thanks everyone for all the input.

Just to point something out, I'm human and not infallible... I understand now that I was being too stubborn, and probably needed a semester off. However, I learned from that mistake and I've become stronger because of it. Dealing with the problems that I have faced, I've learned a lot about myself and other people. Before certain incidents in my first two years of colleges, I didn't really know what failure felt like. My experiences have really motivated me and have even made me a stronger student. I've recovered. Now I'm focused on making up for my troubled times. I know that wherever I go, I will be able to accomplish my goals. However, it's hard not to get paranoid as a premed. Reading things, hearing horror stories.. nowadays it seems like the medical school admissions process is more scrutinizing than a presidential campaign! It's also hard not to avoid the attitude that respected, successful doctors only come from well-known universities...

Should I consider taking an extra year to graduate? I am majoring in Math and Bio, so the extra time would actually be great because I'd be able to take most of the electives I otherwise would not have time to take. It would also give me enough of a boost to make my GPA more average.
Click to expand...

If you're comfortable taking an extra year to graduate, I'd say go for it. The opportunities that it opens up/keeps open are pretty great:

1) GPA: I got the impression that you are a junior currently. If that is true, assuming you have a 3.0 (you said sub-3.0 and I'm hoping that it isn't much lower) now and will get a 4.0 for the remainder of your time in college, that would give you around a 3.6 compared to a 3.5 over two years. The trend is probably as important or more so than the 0.1 boost.

2) You can space your difficult classes out, giving you time to focus on them while taking easier classes to get your GPA up.

3) You can take advantage of the extra year to make other parts of your application stellar. Do more volunteering, or maybe even take a leadership position in an existing volunteer job. Join a club, or learn an instrument.

4) Probably most important: while you are still in school, you have the safety net of your institution behind you. Once you graduate, if you need to take extra classes, you pay for them yourself. If you need to get involved in research, you'll need to get lucky to get in at a lab. If you want to try your hand at teaching, you'll have to go through the process of getting hired on at a company that does tutoring instead of just becoming a TA at your undergrad.

5) Get super ready for the MCAT. Like really ready. A good MCAT score might not fix your GPA, but consider this: getting a 4.0 for every semester for the rest of college might not be possible, and if you get a 3.8 or so your cumulative might be around 3.3-3.4. Not super impressive, but if you walk in with a 35 MCAT, it might at least get you a second look, or a chance to explain your circumstances.

There are some downsides to staying in school longer, but my opinion is that given your circumstances, it is something to realistically consider.
 
apumic said:
There's a difference between setting solid boundaries and not helping someone in need. Most SAs are precipitated by major stressors and often, for people who are unsuccessful, it is more of an attn-seeking issue than a true desire to do oneself in. If the precipitating circumstances caused the friend to become an emotional burden on the OP to the point where it was causing the OP undue stress and unacceptable loss of performance in other areas of her life, then the OP would likely have benefited from referring the friend to a mental health professional. If, OTOH, it was the post-SA stress that caused the loss in performance, the OP should have found help for her own mental health. We all have our limits and not taking care of yourself first is going to lead to a very short-lived and/or unhappy career in medicine (or healthcare in general).
Click to expand...

You know its interesting how you have never met the OP, or her friend, you know nothing about both of their circumstances, but you go ahead and give advice anyway. You are a great doctor. Maybe her best friend didn't have anyone else to confide in? Maybe she couldn't afford a mental health professional? Maybe this was something that she was going to do inevitably? There's no point in giving advice about what she should have done, she can't go back and reverse time to "set solid boundaries" with her friend. What ever has happened can't be reversed so I hope the OP learns from those experiences in preparation for med school.

That's a good point. +1 for the doc.
 
wlee43 said:
you see this is why most pre meds don't have a social life so they won't face these situations
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Such a lie. My medical school class is full of socially normal people, with a diverse background of social interactions and stories.

Perhaps your school is the exception? Medical school adcom's frown on the applicant with a 4.0/38, but with no social skills and/or experiences.
 
fahimaz7 said:
Such a lie. My medical school class is full of socially normal people, with a diverse background of social interactions and stories.

Perhaps your school is the exception? Medical school adcom's frown on the applicant with a 4.0/38, but with no social skills and/or experiences.
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LOL as if med school adcoms have a social life…..where would a robot find hang out places in society anyway?

For OP, the "top" med school adrobots frown upon the 4.0/38/non-top 20 school applicant, unless the OP is a URM, or the child of a billionaire.
 
Playa said:
LOL as if med school adcoms have a social life…..where would a robot find hang out places in society anyway?
Click to expand...

You're either a troll or an angry underachiever. Given that this is pre-allo, the odds are pretty much 50:50...
 
Playa said:
You know its interesting how you have never met the OP, or her friend, you know nothing about both of their circumstances, but you go ahead and give advice anyway. You are a great doctor. Maybe her best friend didn't have anyone else to confide in? Maybe she couldn't afford a mental health professional? Maybe this was something that she was going to do inevitably? There's no point in giving advice about what she should have done, she can't go back and reverse time to "set solid boundaries" with her friend. What ever has happened can't be reversed so I hope the OP learns from those experiences in preparation for med school.

That's a good point. +1 for the doc.
Click to expand...

This is a forum. It is a place for discussing events, topics, etc. In this case, the OP asked whether her past crises make for a good excuse for weak academics. I responded that they probably won't and gave reasons why. I work with SI/SA/HI patients every day. It is crucial for them to have good support structures but it is also crucial that the people around these people have at least as strong (and quite possibly stronger) support structures upon which to lean. If the OP hopes to go into medicine (which I hope she will get to do), this is an important lesson to learn now. Personally, when receiving advice, I'd rather people make some assumptions and give what they can. It is up to the recipient to dig through the responses and fish out what is most useful to him or her.

IHeartNerds said:
You're either a troll or an angry underachiever. Given that this is pre-allo, the odds are pretty much 50:50...
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
apumic said:
This is a forum. It is a place for discussing events, topics, etc. In this case, the OP asked whether her past crises make for a good excuse for weak academics. I responded that they probably won't and gave reasons why. I work with SI/SA/HI patients every day. It is crucial for them to have good support structures but it is also crucial that the people around these people have at least as strong (and quite possibly stronger) support structures upon which to lean. If the OP hopes to go into medicine (which I hope she will get to do), this is an important lesson to learn now. Personally, when receiving advice, I'd rather people make some assumptions and give what they can. It is up to the recipient to dig through the responses and fish out what is most useful to him or her.



Agreed.
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Yes, and OP's strong support structures would be those boundaries and that A on her chem final, we all know how good we feel when that happens after someone attempts suicide. Dig through these responses OP, because apparently you needed to have set boundaries to be successful, now since time travel isn't possible yet, idk how useful this digging is going to be for you. Why don't you just let the OP know what your expert opinion is on her situation in terms of the med schools she wants to apply too? We are all dying to hear your great insight.

Angry? Yes. I wouldn't call myself a complete underachiever given my GPA trend and MCAT, but I am pissed that I can't get into the schools that I want too because I didn't wake up my first two years of undergrad. Besides who wouldn't be angry at the notion that my life goals are going to be determined by machines? Ah well, maybe those adcoms might get something useful in their next round of software updates, but I doubt it.
 
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Playa said:
Yes, and OP's strong support structures would be those boundaries and that A on her chem final, we all know how good we feel when that happens after someone attempts suicide. Dig through these responses OP, because apparently you needed to have set boundaries to be successful, now since time travel isn't possible yet, idk how useful this digging is going to be for you. Why don't you just let the OP know what your expert opinion is on her situation in terms of the med schools she wants to apply too? We are all dying to hear your great insight.

Angry? Yes. I wouldn't call myself a complete underachiever given my GPA trend and MCAT, but I am pissed that I can't get into the schools that I want too because I didn't wake up my first two years of undergrad. Besides who wouldn't be angry at the notion that my life goals are going to be determined by machines? Ah well, maybe those adcoms might get something useful in their next round of software updates, but I doubt it.
Click to expand...

Did you actually read your post before submitting it? The 1st paragraph doesn't even make sense. You made sarcastic remarks that don't follow from any of what I said above. The last half of your first paragraph sounds like an immature 6-year-old.

As for the 2nd, well... all I can really say is what's done is done. You sorta made your bed there, buddy. Honestly, I never quite got how people manage to get all the way to college before "waking up" -- much less do poorly their first 1-2 yrs and then call the last 2-3 years a "trend." If a stock had done poorly its first 14 years and then did well the 15th, would you really call it an "upward trend" and go for it?! H*LL NO! At least not w/o some serious explanation as to the sudden shift. Was there a change in CEO? CFO? Is the change legit or is it more like some creative bookkeeping? Schools have to think in the same way. If that company started talking as though they simply "had a rough first two yrs" you'd call B.S. pretty quick, wouldn't you? Same thing applies here.
 
Playa said:
but I am pissed that I can't get into the schools that I want too because I didn't wake up my first two years of undergrad. Besides who wouldn't be angry at the notion that my life goals are going to be determined by machines?
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In medicine, we like to talk about this thing called "personal responsibility." I suggest you look into it.
 
apumic said:
Did you actually read your post before submitting it? The 1st paragraph doesn't even make sense. You made sarcastic remarks that don't follow from any of what I said above. The last half of your first paragraph sounds like an immature 6-year-old.

As for the 2nd, well... all I can really say is what's done is done. You sorta made your bed there, buddy. Honestly, I never quite got how people manage to get all the way to college before "waking up" -- much less do poorly their first 1-2 yrs and then call the last 2-3 years a "trend." If a stock had done poorly its first 14 years and then did well the 15th, would you really call it an "upward trend" and go for it?! H*LL NO! At least not w/o some serious explanation as to the sudden shift. Was there a change in CEO? CFO? Is the change legit or is it more like some creative bookkeeping? Schools have to think in the same way. If that company started talking as though they simply "had a rough first two yrs" you'd call B.S. pretty quick, wouldn't you? Same thing applies here.
Click to expand...

Your advocating that the OP needs some strong support structures, so either she goes back in time and sets those solid boundaries (good luck with that) or she takes comfort of that crisis on the A of her chem exam. Both are very useful pieces of advice, definitely something the OP can "dig" through.

Unlike you I didn't know I wanted to be a doctor at the age of 2. I made some pretty stupid calls, and yeah I should be penalized for that, but I did turn things around, a 2.7 my first two years, then a 4.0 my last two with a 38S MCAT. I probably won't get into where I really want, but at least I should have a chance at those places, but hey since the world prefers the 4.0/40S/Harvard grad stereotypes, I don't.

So your saying the admission robots compare applicants to stocks? Ok, well it makes it easier for them to compare data in their interface. Most people would view the upward trend to be somewhat promising. Im working on keeping that trend going by doing research and other volunteer work so we will see how it goes when they feed that into the robots interfaces, though I don't really think they take account many human aspects of an application, but w/e I can't become a robot for their sake.

"Rough first two years" can mean many things. It can mean partying 24/7 and slacking off, or it can mean dealing with a lot family and personal problems. Don't just jump to conclusions especially if you know nothing about me. Doctor.
 
IHeartNerds said:
In medicine, we like to talk about this thing called "personal responsibility." I suggest you look into it.
Click to expand...

WOW! What an astute observation! I know your a medical student now after that statement, I mean you should use that line at the bar, you'll finally make some progress!
 
LizzyM said:
A masters degree will do nothing for your undergraduate gpa. If you have something exceptional in the humanitarian relief section, such as full time work for a year or two after graduation, then the undergrad gpa is perhaps less critical, particularly if you have a strong upward trend (a 4.0 in the last two years would be very good). A coulple of years f/t in a lab with funding, presentations, maybe publications would be another alternative that might get you some looks...
Click to expand...


Do you believe it is pointless to obtain a Master's degree to help alleviate a subpar undergraduate gpa? I have heard that while it will not change your undergraduate gpa, your graduate gpa is averaged with it in consideration for admission. I have a similar situation and was planning on getting my Master's in a one-year special program, then completing humanitarian work the year after. Will that make me a better applicant?
 
Playa said:
Unlike you I didn't know I wanted to be a doctor at the age of 2. I made some pretty stupid calls, and yeah I should be penalized for that, but I did turn things around, a 2.7 my first two years, then a 4.0 my last two with a 38S MCAT. I probably won't get into where I really want, but at least I should have a chance at those places, but hey since the world prefers the 4.0/40S/Harvard grad stereotypes, I don't.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to understand your argument (and bitterness.) There are limited slots at elite institutions. There are people who did well, regardless of adversity, and who have everything that these schools want in an applicant. Then there are people like you, who have good stats, but not as good. Good experiences, but not as good. What reason again is it that you should be chosen over them? You keep bitching about stereotypes and robots and this and that, but you are generalizing the exact same way by assuming that the applicants who get acceptance to HMS aren't actually BETTER CANDIDATES THAN YOU for HMS's mission. I know it stings, but such is life. You'll get a nice acceptance at a second-tier school, and there will be people with better GPA's and EC's than you, but worse MCAT scores, bitching and moaning that you just did well on one test and that they are better applicants than you in fact. Your response to their arguments would not be one of agreement, I assume. Their poor little dreams will be being tromped upon by you. I don't think you'll feel guilty about it. Deal with who you are and what you've accomplished. Grow up a little bit beyond that sense of entitlement.
 
need2beMD said:
Do you believe it is pointless to obtain a Master's degree to help alleviate a subpar undergraduate gpa? I have heard that while it will not change your undergraduate gpa, your graduate gpa is averaged with it in consideration for admission. I have a similar situation and was planning on getting my Master's in a one-year special program, then completing humanitarian work the year after. Will that make me a better applicant?
Click to expand...

Granted, my experience is limited to one top tier school but in that experience, a MS or MPH (or an MA :eek: ) will not be averaged in with the undergrad gpa, it is considered separately. Furthermore, there is so much grade inflation in many grad schools that it is almost impossible to earn less than a B in any course unless you totally blow things off so everyone (and I mean everyone) has a gpa between 3.0 and 4.0 (in fact, in some graduate schools, failure to maintain a 3.0 gpa is grounds for dismissal).

Now, some schools may consider a graduate degree to be evidence that one can hold one's own in advanced courses (in large part this depends on the school and the subject matter) and it will get you some consideration.
 
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