San Juan Bautista MD school loses accreditation

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CodeBlu

CodeBlu

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https://www.aamc.org/students/sjb

Information for San Juan Bautista School of Medicine Students and Applicants

"Effective October 3, 2011, the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) has withdrawn accreditation from the educational program leading to the M.D. degree at the San Juan Bautista School of Medicine. This decision was based primarily on the LCME's assessment of inadequate clinical resources. This decision is final. The notification letter sent to the program informed it of its right to provide official comment to the U.S. Department of Education and to the LCME. If the program chooses to exercise this option, copies of the comments will be made available to the public by request. A copy of the letter notifying the program of this decision is available here."
(LCME Web site, Oct. 3, 2011, www.lcme.org)

This page is intended to provide general information for students and applicants, as well as to identify resources for more specific information.







This is sooooooooooooooo messed up.
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Members don't see this ad :)
How does losing accreditation work? Is it like closing a lane at Wal-Mart, where whoever is already in the lane gets to get their items checked out, but new people can't enter? Or is it like, everyone in the lane has to get out?
 
Stumpyman said:
How does losing accreditation work? Is it like closing a lane at Wal-Mart, where whoever is already in the lane gets to get their items checked out, but new people can't enter? Or is it like, everyone in the lane has to get out?
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No, it's like the people in the middle of checking out (the fourth year students) suddenly have to find a new lane to check out.

The website CB linked us to in his post mentions that the fourth year students applying to residency programs can no longer do so because they are no longer attending a LCME accredited program.

The last time an MD school closed (Oral Roberts in 1990), the school announced the closure in 1989 and students finished the year off. However, in that situation, the school closed due to financial difficulties NOT their accreditation being revoked. In this situation, the accreditation is revoked effective immediately, so current students are stuck
 
Stumpyman said:
How does losing accreditation work? Is it like closing a lane at Wal-Mart, where whoever is already in the lane gets to get their items checked out, but new people can't enter? Or is it like, everyone in the lane has to get out?
Click to expand...

Everyone in the lane has to get out.

You can't apply to any ACGME residency programs unless at the time you graduated, the school held LCME accreditation.
 
This highlights a very important point that most applicants don't even realize is important. Look at their accreditation cycle stuff. If they just passed and are on the 7 year cycle then you're golden. If not there is a non zero that this happens.

If you can't find the info, Ask!
 
From AAMC: How do I reapply to medical school as a first-year student?
The American Medical College Application Service® (AMCAS®) application for the 2012 entering class is currently available on the American Medical College Application Service® site.
Click to expand...

As a successful repeat offender (re-applicant), I find this prospect horrifying. Not to mention, I bet more than a handful of kids are there because of admission difficulties from the past. :(




DrBowtie said:
This highlights a very important point that most applicants don't even realize is important. Look at their accreditation cycle stuff. If they just passed and are on the 7 year cycle then you're golden. If not there is a non zero that this happens.

If you can't find the info, Ask!
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I get this, but can a school just get their accreditation revoked? Do they not get warned repeatedly before they get shutdown? I imagine a school has to really screw up to get stuff revoked?
 
AvidAvatar said:
As a successful repeat offender (re-applicant), I find this prospect horrifying. Not to mention, I bet more than a handful of kids are there because of admission difficulties from the past. :(






I get this, but can a school just get their accreditation revoked? Do they not get warned repeatedly before they get shutdown? I imagine a school has to really screw up to get stuff revoked?
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Correct, but the warnings aren't always readily known about or available.
 
DrBowtie said:
This highlights a very important point that most applicants don't even realize is important. Look at their accreditation cycle stuff. If they just passed and are on the 7 year cycle then you're golden. If not there is a non zero that this happens.

If you can't find the info, Ask!
Click to expand...

How do you find this info? All I've got is LCME: Directory of Accredited Programs which only shows when their next up for review/survey, not which "cycle" they are on. Are most schools on the 7 year cycle or only the very top scorers, with the majority on 3 or 4 year cycles?
 
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I for one am shocked the medical school with the lowest LizzyM score of all domestic programs, the average MCAT of 20 and cGPA of 3.3 could possibly provide a substandard education.

Shocked.
 
centrigeugle said:
I for one am shocked the medical school with the lowest LizzyM score of all domestic programs, the average MCAT of 20 and cGPA of 3.3 could possibly provide a substandard education.

Shocked.
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Regardless, there are standards and you assume the school to meet them when you enroll. Don't act holier than thou and pull out those statistics because you feel you're too good for the school.
 
Bacchus said:
Regardless, there are standards and you assume the school to meet them when you enroll. Don't act holier than thou and pull out those statistics because you feel you're too good for the school.
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True, but the only reason that you can make the assumption that schools meet said standard is due to events like this where schools that don't are closed down.

That being said, my heart goes out to the SJB students, who aren't responsible for their schools inadequacy. You can hardly blame them for assuming that their school would still be around when they graduate. Right now they can't even apply for the match as IMGs, as the school they're attending is not an accredited school in its home country (nevermind that i'm sure SJB would have no trouble with accreditation in carib countries).

I hope the students can sue the school for damages (namely loans and lost time), as the inability to maintain this basic standard of competence is criminally negligent on the administrations part.
 
Wow! This sucks big time. I'm sure this will ruin triagepremed's dream of becoming a physician. Oh well... :smuggrin:
 
I really hope that medical schools will be friendly towards the students from SJB, at least towards third and fourth years in particular, who've taken and passed their step 1 exams. I also hope (wishfully) that students will be refunded this years tuition. I can't imagine how much it sucks to be screwed over so badly by the school you go to.
 
One issue is that the average student here has a 3.3/20

How appealing is that for other medical schools when considering transfers?
 
Sutton said:
Wow! This sucks big time. I'm sure this will ruin triagepremed's dream of becoming a physician. Oh well... :smuggrin:
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Do you feel good about yourself?

blizzah said:
One issue is that the average student here has a 3.3/20

How appealing is that for other medical schools when considering transfers?
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If they have a decent step 1 score, then why not? Schools like GWU and Drexel always take a few 3rd years from Carib institutes with decent step scores.
 
blizzah said:
One issue is that the average student here has a 3.3/20

How appealing is that for other medical schools when considering transfers?
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My guess is it would have to be grade dependent. They're in medical school, now. Sans first year students who have been there for only a few months, everyone else can be judged on pre-clinical grades (the M2s) or Step I scores (M3s/M4s).

In the case of the M3s/M4s: If they passed the first step, they will more than likely pass Step II PE/CE. They aren't a huge risk unless they're failing multiple shelf exams, I'd think.
 
Sutton said:
Wow! This sucks big time. I'm sure this will ruin triagepremed's dream of becoming a physician. Oh well... :smuggrin:
Click to expand...

Tigergramma always misses the internets drama :(
 
Holy **** is an understatement. Uncertain futures and massive debt with the possibility of having to reapply to med school. Wow.
 
Sutton said:
Fantastic! Thanks for checking.;)
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Gah, you're a premed, who hasn't gotten into a med school (Caribbean or otherwise), who hasn't even taken the MCAT. I can care less how well you did on your last orgo 1 exam, you haven't earned the right to be arrogant yet :p
 
Mithril said:
Holy **** is an understatement. Uncertain futures and massive debt with the possibility of having to reapply to med school. Wow.
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Do you guys think this is the first of many Caribbean med schools to have its accreditations revoked or do you think this is an isolated incident? I do feel bad for the students already at the school, but I've come to see going to a Caribbean medical school as an incredibly risky way to fulfill a dream if you are from the United States and plan to practice here.
 
MPATOBC said:
Do you guys think this is the first of many Caribbean med schools to have its accreditations revoked or do you think this is an isolated incident? I do feel bad for the students already at the school, but I've come to see going to a Caribbean medical school as an incredibly risky way to fulfill a dream if you are from the United States and plan to practice here.
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Le sigh... noobs.

It is NOT a Caribbean medical school... anything accredited by the LCME is US or Canadian.
 
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CodeBlu said:
Le sigh... noobs.

It's is NOT a Caribbean medical school... anything accredited by the LCME is US or Canadian.
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Sorry for the misunderstanding and I don't mean to get this completely off-track, but are the "Caribbean med schools" accredited by any sort of body that also grants credentials to US-based med schools?
 
mishaS said:
Gah, you're a premed, who hasn't gotten into a med school (Caribbean or otherwise), who hasn't even taken the MCAT. I can care less how well you did on your last orgo 1 exam, you haven't earned the right to be arrogant yet :p
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oohh...snap.
 
MPATOBC said:
Sorry for the misunderstanding and I don't mean to get this completely off-track, but are the "Caribbean med schools" accredited by any sort of body that also grants credentials to US-based med schools?
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All you need to know is that if a school is in the US or US territory, like Puerto Rico in this case, and is LCME-accredited, then they are on equal footing as any other graduate from a US allopathic school. Geographic Caribbean is not the same thing as med school Caribbean.
 
Morzh said:
How do you find this info? All I've got is LCME: Directory of Accredited Programs which only shows when their next up for review/survey, not which "cycle" they are on. Are most schools on the 7 year cycle or only the very top scorers, with the majority on 3 or 4 year cycles?
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Sorry I had a brain lapse. Its normally an 8 year cycle. See the excerpt below I copied from the LCME Rules of Procedure.

"A. Term of Accreditation
Programs are normally subject to review on an eight-year cycle. However, the LCME may vote to advance the date of a full survey visit, so that the school has a full review in less than eight years, if there are questions about the sustainability of educational program quality."
 
If it were a Caribbean school, there'd be higher standards :rolleyes:

Just kidding, lol. Anyway, there's 60 of them 4th-years. They were extended invitations by about 4 schools, 2 of which requires residency. I'm not sure of SJB can quickly get accreditation from somewhere else other than LCME, but if it can't, the graduates can't even apply for ECFMG because the school is currently not accredited by its home country (the US).

The situation really sucks and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. On valuemd, a few years ago people who applied and got into SJB were really happy because it JUST got LCME accreditation in 2007 (compared to the rest of the Caribbeans). Others said they were taking a big risk because they didn't know if it would get accredited by the time they graduated.

Theoretically, they have graduated about 4 LCME-accredited classes by now (2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010). That does leave the question of, before 2007, what were they accredited by.
 
Bacchus said:
Regardless, there are standards and you assume the school to meet them when you enroll. Don't act holier than thou and pull out those statistics because you feel you're too good for the school.
Click to expand...

Holier than thou? Too good for this school?

Yes, I am (or maybe "was" is a more appropriate term) too good for that school.

Seriously. An MCAT of 20 is the 20-24 percentile score according to last year's statistics. Under the lowest quartile for all test takers. You could take off any section score and I'd still be significantly above that. I'm actually amazed a school with students who average 20 on the MCAT (which means lots of them got below that) could even exist.

Maybe you feel that any medical school should be inscrutable by somebody who isn't in one yet - but I absolutely would not attend that school. Look, it definitely sucks for those students who've just lost a lot of time and money on this situation - as surely nobody expects something like this.

But when you're attending the worst school in the country...stuff happens. Maybe they should have gotten higher scores. A 20 is just terrible.
 
this place has got to be a joke with the level of students they accept... 20 MCAT, come on. less than scrupulous mainlander rejects with money, that's how it works. do you want them to be your docs?
 
KLycos said:
I agree with this^
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You will be more shocked to know that one of last years graduates with the lower MCAT obtained a 228/95 Step1 and got into a top Anesthesia program in NY..
 
I find it incredibly insensitive to bust on a school's low MCAT requirements when it exists in a primarily Spanish speaking island and Spanish fluency is a requirement for admission. I doubt I would score a 20 on a Spanish language MCAT.

I've tutored ESL students on the MCAT before and it is incredibly difficult for them. There are a lot of English subtleties and wordplay in the science passages too.

The students did not lose their accreditation.

pandabeardoc said:
this place has got to be a joke with the level of students they accept... 20 MCAT, come on. less than scrupulous mainlander rejects with money, that's how it works. do you want them to be your docs?
Click to expand...

Actually I have received medical care in Puerto Rico when I was out sailing. It was a minor surgery with local anesthetic. It cost me $50 cash. Perhaps the mainlanders could learn a thing or two from Puerto Rican doctors.
 
You should be ashamed of yourselves.

This is a tragedy for the kids in Puerto Rico who invested a huge amount of time an money into their medical education and now may have nothing to show for it but debt that rivals a large home mortgage. It is also a tragedy for the entire island. There will likely be fewer MDs and begin to suffer more health disparities and inadequate care coverage.

MCAT scores had nothing to do with losing accreditation; it was the school's own fault for not having adequate clinical spots. My MCAT score certainly doesn't help my school shape its curriculum.

Before you start talking about school caliber and quality based on MCAT scores, you should at least have an acceptance in hand (or even better, a year or two of medical school under your belt). All other's comments are entirely naive.

Unscrupulous "mainlander rejects with money" (which by the way, you haven't proven yourself above) go to the Caribbean, not the Puerto Rico US program. I certainly don't want a pre-medical student as my doctor.
 
Last edited:
HumbleMD said:
You should be ashamed of yourselves.

This is a tragedy for the kids in Puerto Rico who invested a huge amount of time an money into their medical education and now may have nothing to show for it but debt that rivals a large home mortgage. It is also a tragedy for the entire island. There will likely be fewer MDs and begin to suffer more health disparities and inadequate care coverage.

MCAT scores had nothing to do with losing accreditation; it was the school's own fault for not having adequate clinical spots. My MCAT score certainly doesn't help my school shape its curriculum.

Before you start talking about school caliber and quality based on MCAT scores, you should at least have an acceptance in hand (or even better, a year or two of medical school under your belt). All other's comments are entirely naive.

Unscrupulous "mainlander rejects with money" (which by the way, you haven't proven yourself above) go to the Caribbean, not the Puerto Rico US program. I certainly don't want a pre-medical student as my doctor.
Click to expand...

People don't give a damn unless it happens to them.
 
Celerity said:
People don't give a damn unless it happens to them.
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I "give a damn" about the state of healthcare in the United States. This will only worsen healthcare delivery in Puerto Rico (which in in the US, may I remind you). That, combined with the huge shortage of Latino physicians in the US, and the screwed state that the 3rd and 4th year students are in, makes this nothing to gloat about and make about med school admissions and MCAT scores. There are bigger things.

That's why I care. Why do you care about a school you didn't apply to and never would have attended, if medical school admission is your current preoccupation?
 
centrigeugle said:
Holier than thou? Too good for this school?

Yes, I am (or maybe "was" is a more appropriate term) too good for that school.

Seriously. An MCAT of 20 is the 20-24 percentile score according to last year's statistics. Under the lowest quartile for all test takers. You could take off any section score and I'd still be significantly above that. I'm actually amazed a school with students who average 20 on the MCAT (which means lots of them got below that) could even exist.

Maybe you feel that any medical school should be inscrutable by somebody who isn't in one yet - but I absolutely would not attend that school. Look, it definitely sucks for those students who've just lost a lot of time and money on this situation - as surely nobody expects something like this.

But when you're attending the worst school in the country...stuff happens. Maybe they should have gotten higher scores. A 20 is just terrible.
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This, my friends. The epitome of a TRUE PRE-MED.

SDN just wouldn't be the same without people like you. :thumbdown:

(Your trollish post deserved an equally versed response.)
 
Sorry that it really bothers you, but I would still not accept an acceptance from that school, even if I applied. Which I didn't.

Seems like that would have actually been a good decision. Schools earns accreditation in '07, loses it now. What an illustrious career.

For those with knotted undergarments - why didn't YOU apply to SJ? I imagine it's probably because you think you can do better. Nothing wrong with that.

I feel for the students. But that doesn't make me any less surprised. If this HADN'T been such an "URM school" all of you would be waxing analytical about how it's so unfortunate, but standards are standards and if you don't meet them, tough. As the case may be it seems like so much recreational hand-wringing and I really don't want my physician getting 25% on his/her standardized tests.
 
HumbleMD said:
You should be ashamed of yourselves.

This is a tragedy for the kids in Puerto Rico who invested a huge amount of time an money into their medical education and now may have nothing to show for it but debt that rivals a large home mortgage. It is also a tragedy for the entire island. There will likely be fewer MDs and begin to suffer more health disparities and inadequate care coverage.

MCAT scores had nothing to do with losing accreditation; it was the school's own fault for not having adequate clinical spots. My MCAT score certainly doesn't help my school shape its curriculum.

Before you start talking about school caliber and quality based on MCAT scores, you should at least have an acceptance in hand (or even better, a year or two of medical school under your belt). All other's comments are entirely naive.

Unscrupulous "mainlander rejects with money" (which by the way, you haven't proven yourself above) go to the Caribbean, not the Puerto Rico US program. I certainly don't want a pre-medical student as my doctor.
Click to expand...

Great post. While the the fault of closure falls squarely on the school, and while the LCME withdrawal of accreditation was for the best, the lack of compassion from posters like centrigeugle is gross. How much one can correlate standardized test scores to actual performance in career is questionable at best, however the aforementioned lack of empathy displayed here towards students who have spent tens of thousands of dollars, and years of their lives, towards pursuing their dream is indicative of people who I would be afraid of in any sort of position where care for people is paramount. "You were diagnosed with emphysema and yet you continued to smoke, in spite of the risks? Why do you even deserve my care or time?"

Further, in regards to fourth years and third years who've passed their step1, I fail to see how a low MCAT has anything to do with anything. THEY PASSED THEIR FIRST LICENSING EXAM, you guys have no place passing judgement on them when you guys haven't even gotten into a medical school...
 
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