1st Union of Employed Anesthesiologists

[gator2886]

I would like to gage interest here of how many people would like to explore starting a union for employed Anesthesiologists. I do believe it is time that we come together to protect our common interests. As an employee you have the right to collectively bargain, lobby etc. ASA is not looking out for me. Who is looking out for you?

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Ignatius J]

That sounds like a bad idea. A bunch of people making 400K/year trying to unionize will not go over well with the public and PR.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

That sounds like a bad idea. A bunch of people making 400K/year trying to unionize will not go over well with the public and PR.

I thought the average salary was 265k/yr

 

[Chloroform4Life]

Yeah.... Another group to pay fees to and likely has no power to change anything doesn't sound like a good idea. Unions bank on their ability to organize strikes if they don't get what they want. What exactly is an anesthesiologist union going to do? It would be hard enough convincing one anesthesiologist to go on strike given our lifestyle/debts/etc... It would be impossible to convince a group of anesthesiologists even at one hospital to strike together.

 

[Ignatius J]

I thought the average salary was 265k/yr

No. Anesthesia is still extremely lucrative. No matter what this board tells you.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

No. Anesthesia is still extremely lucrative. No matter what this board tells you.

are you an anesthesiologist? I tried making a thread trying to ask questions, but it got deleted because I'm not one.

 

[criticalelement]

That sounds like a bad idea. A bunch of people making 400K/year trying to unionize will not go over well with the public and PR.

i think it s a great idea..

you are drinking the Kool-Aid Ignatius.

Why is it ok for a business entity that owns me to make as much money as possible but when i want as much money as possible for what we do seems to be sacrilege.

 

[Ignatius J]

i think it s a great idea..

you are drinking the Kool-Aid Ignatius.

Why is it ok for a business entity that owns me to make as much money as possible but when i want as much money as possible for what we do seems to be sacrilege.

That's not a question for me. That's a question for the public.

Unions are traditionally made up of working class professions. This would jump the shark in a lot of people's eyes. Physicians already are battling a perception problem. Going union with it won't help.

 

[Ignatius J]

are you an anesthesiologist? I tried making a thread trying to ask questions, but it got deleted because I'm not one.

I am.

 

[caligas]

That sounds like a bad idea. A bunch of people making 400K/year trying to unionize will not go over well with the public and PR.

Yeah, like how people hate pro athletes for having unions.

 

[Ignatius J]

Yeah, like how people hate pro athletes for having unions.

Bad example.

 

[criticalelement]

That's not a question for me. That's a question for the public.

Unions are traditionally made up of working class professions. This would jump the shark in a lot of people's eyes. Physicians already are battling a perception problem. Going union with it won't help.

You know, I don't know nothing 'bout no jumping sharks. The only thing I know is when I am away from my kids trying to get a spinal or an epidural in a 450 pound parturient when her bf is filming me on their 2000 dollar camcorder in HD video it feels like I am severely underpaid. I wanna make it right cuz I don't wanna be pissed off every minute of my professional life. "Getting paid" might soften the daily blows.

 

[Chloroform4Life]

You know, I don't know nothing 'bout no jumping sharks. The only thing I know is when I am away from my kids trying to get a spinal or an epidural in a 450 pound parturient when her bf is filming me on their 2000 dollar camcorder in HD video it feels like I am severely underpaid. I wanna make it right cuz I don't wanna be pissed off every minute of my professional life. "Getting paid" might soften the daily blows.

You let people film you performing epidurals on their loved ones?

 

[caligas]

Bad example.

Are you saying I shouldn't compare myself to a pro athlete? Rude.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I would like to gage interest here of how many people would like to explore starting a union for employed Anesthesiologists. I do believe it is time that we come together to protect our common interests. As an employee you have the right to collectively bargain, lobby etc. ASA is not looking out for me. Who is looking out for you?

I read the title of this thread and immediately thought "First Union of UNEMPLOYED Anesthesiologists" courtesy of the AANA.

 

[sleepallday]

Not just a bad idea. A horrible idea. You have absolutely no leverage as a physician. If negotiations don't go well, what are you going to do? Are you prepared to actually go on strike and prevent sick people from getting the care they need? That would go over real well with the public.

 

[criticalelement]

Are you prepared to actually go on strike and prevent sick people from getting the care they need? That would go over real well with the public.

Yes I am. And look how far it got the nurses. Some icu nurses make 120k per year.

 

[badasshairday]

That sounds like a bad idea. A bunch of people making 400K/year trying to unionize will not go over well with the public and PR.

Oh well, they already don't really respect us anyways. No big deal. I'm all for unionizing like nurses who make 6 figures for 2 years of schooling and pro athletes who make the real big bux. We doctors have been bullied so much which is why healthcare and physician morale is in the state it is right now.

 

[Chloroform4Life]

If we all go on strike, CRNA scabs will be lining up to take our job and anesthesilogy as a profession will come to an end as we know it.

 

[pgg]

Anesthesiologists unionizing sounds like a propaganda campaign designed by the AANA.

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

The Perfect Model, Safe and Cost-Effective
A landmark study published in 2010 found that a CRNA working as the sole anesthesia provider is the most cost-effective anesthesia delivery model. Get research


http://www.future-of-anesthesia-care-today.com/about-anesthesia-care.php


https://www.ncsbn.org/5404.htm

 

[sleepallday]

Anesthesiologists unionizing sounds like a propaganda campaign designed by the AANA.

Exactly. I don't compare myself to nurses. Not that I'm better or consider myself superior. Its just not an equal comparison...apples to oranges.

 

[Ignatius J]

The Perfect Model, Safe and Cost-Effective
A landmark study published in 2010 found that a CRNA working as the sole anesthesia provider is the most cost-effective anesthesia delivery model. Get research


http://www.future-of-anesthesia-care-today.com/about-anesthesia-care.php


https://www.ncsbn.org/5404.htm

If you read this study, or if it is the one I am thinking of, they actually use a cRNA salary of 170K and anesthesiologist of 350K. A cRNA salary of 170K is a little misleading as that number would no doubt inflate with malpractice coverage and call/night/weekend/holiday responsibilities. Also, average anesthesiologist right now is said to be 300Kish. So the numbers are so far misleading it is ridiculous.

 

[Stank811]

CRNAs are not a threat...at least in my area which might be bc most of the academic centers near us don't train the CRNAs to do complex cases or do lines or regional...resident and fellow territory. It is simple....we have zero obligation to train them to do our job. Many hospitals are realizing their mistake on CRNA only models in rural hospitals and are trying to get their PP groups who are contracted at the hubs to take over their CRNAs to unload the financial lose from such a model.

 

[GravelRider]

Where I am nurses are unionized and teachers are unionized. They make ALOT more money than people elsewhere in the country. The teachers here make 120k easily. They have a very strong union. Where I did internal medicine residency, the unionized ICU nurses made 120-140k while the employed pulm/cc docs made 90-100k (no Union).

The whole point of a union is to negotiate a contract collectively (i.e. Collective bargaining). You are much stronger negotiating with a large entity if you, yourself, are a large entity. The point behind collective bargaining is not to negotiate between a 350 vs 400k salary, but rather to get rid of things like restrictive covenant (nurses and teachers don't have these).

Conclusion: A union is not only a great idea, but will soon become necessary. There is no salary restriction on unionizing. It's just a way for individuals to have a voice when bargaining with a large organization. Unions aren't perfect, but in the grand scheme of things they have been a positive force in our economy.

 

[GravelRider]

You all need to stop with this "in my area" cr@p. I'm sorry, but the country is not going to follow what happens in Topeka, KS. You need to see what is happening in NYC, Boston, DC, Philly, Chicago, LA to get a better idea of the future. Just because this is not happening in bumblesh$t USA doesn't mean it won't happen in 5-10 years. The country does not follow what is happening in Topeka (sorry Topeka for picking on you). Things happen in NYC/Boston/DC first and then spread elsewhere.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

I am.

so you're making over 400k/year? How long after residency did it take you to make that? How much debt did you graduate with? how long did it take to pay it off? How many hours do you work per week? How much time do you get off? Realistically speaking, what's the highest you can spend on a house (without a spouse)? I heard that physicians get special loans for homes, how does that work? Did you do it?

 

[bromazepam]

so you're making over 400k/year? How long after residency did it take you to make that? How much debt did you graduate with? how long did it take to pay it off? How many hours do you work per week? How much time do you get off? Realistically speaking, what's the highest you can spend on a house (without a spouse)? I heard that physicians get special loans for homes, how does that work? Did you do it?

According to the 2016 medscape compensation report, the average salary is 360k.

http://img.medscapestatic.com/pi/fe...n/2016/anesthesiology/fig2.jpg?resize=645:439

Also, maybe chill with the questions since you're a pre-med , but I'm sure you can find the answers to some of those questions on this thread already if you feel like digging.

 

[IlDestriero]

so you're making over 400k/year? How long after residency did it take you to make that? How much debt did you graduate with? how long did it take to pay it off? How many hours do you work per week? How much time do you get off? Realistically speaking, what's the highest you can spend on a house (without a spouse)? I heard that physicians get special loans for homes, how does that work? Did you do it?

I tried to send you a PM but it was blocked. You may not get people posting those answers in the public forum.
Anesthesia can be very lucrative if you're not working for an AMC or in a low volume rural/heavily uninsured/govt pay system.


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Il Destriero

 

[anes121508]

You all need to stop with this "in my area" cr@p. I'm sorry, but the country is not going to follow what happens in Topeka, KS. You need to see what is happening in NYC, Boston, DC, Philly, Chicago, LA to get a better idea of the future. Just because this is not happening in bumblesh$t USA doesn't mean it won't happen in 5-10 years. The country does not follow what is happening in Topeka (sorry Topeka for picking on you). Things happen in NYC/Boston/DC first and then spread elsewhere.

I am in one of those major cities, and like I've posted before, we are training SRNA's to do the more complex cases. It is not uncommon to look at the board and see the SRNA assigned 1:1 with the attending for an LVAD, crani, nicu baby, transplant, ect.

Majority of the time residents get the big cases (especially when it's a week where the residents are making the schedule), but CRNA's will complain if they do not receive enough "big cases"....unfortunately they will get what they ask for an a resident will be in a fun day of eye balls.

I only write this to serve as one example of where the root (or at least a portion of the root) of the problem lies. I have friends across the country, and my program is not the only one where this goes on.

 

[anes121508]

If we all go on strike, CRNA scabs will be lining up to take our job and anesthesilogy as a profession will come to an end as we know it.

Instead of striking to work and take care of patients, why not strike against training SRNA's? What if every program in the country that trains residents and SRNA's side by side put SRNA training on hold?

 

[Psai]

I am in one of those major cities, and like I've posted before, we are training SRNA's to do the more complex cases. It is not uncommon to look at the board and see the SRNA assigned 1:1 with the attending for an LVAD, crani, nicu baby, transplant, ect.

Majority of the time residents get the big cases (especially when it's a week where the residents are making the schedule), but CRNA's will complain if they do not receive enough "big cases"....unfortunately they will get what they ask for an a resident will be in a fun day of eye balls.

I only write this to serve as one example of where the root (or at least a portion of the root) of the problem lies. I have friends across the country, and my program is not the only one where this goes on.

Am I the only one that doesn't understand this bizarro world setup? Why train them to do complex cases? Why even have the nursing student in the room if it's going to be 1:1?

 

[IlDestriero]

I am in one of those major cities, and like I've posted before, we are training SRNA's to do the more complex cases. It is not uncommon to look at the board and see the SRNA assigned 1:1 with the attending for an LVAD, crani, nicu baby, transplant, ect.

Majority of the time residents get the big cases (especially when it's a week where the residents are making the schedule), but CRNA's will complain if they do not receive enough "big cases"....unfortunately they will get what they ask for an a resident will be in a fun day of eye balls.

I only write this to serve as one example of where the root (or at least a portion of the root) of the problem lies. I have friends across the country, and my program is not the only one where this goes on.

That didn't happen in the Navy when I was there with their training program. The residents always got the best cases and the SRNAs rotated away to to cardiac, neuro and some vascular. I don't even want to do complex cases with most of the residents. And you know what, they don't need to know how to do high risk complex pediatric anesthesia anyway. At least you're 1:1. They can be on a very short leash and you don't have to have them do any procedures you don't want them to. Most of our faculty don't let them do lines, blocks, etc. They might get an A line. Hell, most of the time they don't even place the IV. They mask, we line, they tube.
(These are the CRNAs BTW, we rarely have SRNAs, and when we do we treat them like medical students.)


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Il Destriero

 

[Consigliere]

so you're making over 400k/year? How long after residency did it take you to make that? How much debt did you graduate with? how long did it take to pay it off? How many hours do you work per week? How much time do you get off? Realistically speaking, what's the highest you can spend on a house (without a spouse)? I heard that physicians get special loans for homes, how does that work? Did you do it?

Too many questions

 

[pgg]

I am in one of those major cities, and like I've posted before, we are training SRNA's to do the more complex cases. It is not uncommon to look at the board and see the SRNA assigned 1:1 with the attending for an LVAD, crani, nicu baby, transplant, ect.

Majority of the time residents get the big cases (especially when it's a week where the residents are making the schedule), but CRNA's will complain if they do not receive enough "big cases"....unfortunately they will get what they ask for an a resident will be in a fun day of eye balls.

I only write this to serve as one example of where the root (or at least a portion of the root) of the problem lies. I have friends across the country, and my program is not the only one where this goes on.

Depending on how nuclear you want to go with this, and I'm not saying you should or that it won't cause you problems, you could go to the ACGME. If SRNAs are standing between residents and good cases, they'd like to know about it. There's no room in the ACGME's mind for residents taking the back seat to nurses.

This is a minor source of friction between our residency and our SRNA program, because the SRNA program directors (who are CRNAs) want their students to get into bigger cases. We never assign them to those rooms, because we always have residents available. Their program isn't pleased with that, but they accept it.

Sounds like your PD needs to do his job.

 

[AlphaBeta<3]

Too many questions

Saved them since high school

 

[kidthor]

A union per se is probably impossible to create in this situation...

But I think the point is that our interests are simply not being represented by any of our current professional groups (the ASA, ABA, or AMA). In fact, these groups are unabashedly selling us all out.

To that end, a shake up of said groups or an entirely new group is the the way to go. The creation of NBPAS, for example, seems to have been a part of successful MOCA pushback.

 

[criticalelement]

ation...

But I think the point is that our interests are simply not being represented by any of our current professional groups (the ASA, ABA, or AMA). In fact, these groups are unabashedly selling us all out.
.

Right on..

If you pay money and give dues to any of the professional societies.. ASA, or your state anaesthesia society you are part of the problem. And you are contributing to the problem..

The fix is:

Do not give ANY money to your professional societies.. American SOciety of Anesthesiologists also known as the ASA.... or state anesthesia society]
These folks are absolutely actively selling you out.. NO question....

FOr example, Everyone.. and I mean everyone is against MOCA... yet Moca still exists and they are doubling down on it...

THe current chairs of the academic departments are excrement.. plain and simple.. NO back bone... waste products.. Period.

 

[Mman]

A union per se is probably impossible to create in this situation...

But I think the point is that our interests are simply not being represented by any of our current professional groups (the ASA, ABA, or AMA). In fact, these groups are unabashedly selling us all out.

To that end, a shake up of said groups or an entirely new group is the the way to go. The creation of NBPAS, for example, seems to have been a part of successful MOCA pushback.

you actually probably could create a union of anesthesiologists that are employed by AMCs. Faculty members at universities, residents/fellows, private practice docs, and 1099 contractors would all be excluded, but pure W2 employed docs of AMCs would probably be legally successful in creating a union if you had enough desire amongst them to do it.

 

[Psai]

Depending on how nuclear you want to go with this, and I'm not saying you should or that it won't cause you problems, you could go to the ACGME. If SRNAs are standing between residents and good cases, they'd like to know about it. There's no room in the ACGME's mind for residents taking the back seat to nurses.

This is a minor source of friction between our residency and our SRNA program, because the SRNA program directors (who are CRNAs) want their students to get into bigger cases. We never assign them to those rooms, because we always have residents available. Their program isn't pleased with that, but they accept it.

Sounds like your PD needs to do his job.

Tell them that if they want big cases they can always put on their big boy pants and go to med school

 

[pgg]

Tell them that if they want big cases they can always put on their big boy pants and go to med school

Well, there's nothing to be gained by being condescending or abrasive. They're good people, and I try not to be a dick.

But our ACGME accreditation is more important than giving them what they want. They know the score.

 

[rakotomazoto]

We don't have any SRNA's where I am training. I saw how that could be a negative as a medical student. The competition for good cases is shameful. Training our replacements is a terrible model for long-term success, so short-sighted. Also, I saw many SRNA's spend a lot of time and energy trying to maneuver into doing complex procedures and cases rather than learning the fundamentals of anesthesiology. There simply isn't enough time in their training program to become competent in everything they want to do. Solution: go to medical school and do residency, invest the time to understand what you are inflicting on your poor patients. Too many would rather take the short cut at the expense of others and that is a mindset that extends far beyond the problem with CRNA's.

 

[easternether]

the docs at my residency are unioninized - the UUP (union of university professionals). This include all faculty from undergrad and grad and the anesthesia attendings as well as other fields so it is pretty big. It doesn't help much with salary because the UUP only negotiates with NYS and the structure of pay is such that 1/5 of the pay is NYS and 4/5 is through a 'private corporations' but the UUP does protect the benefits.

 

[Mman]

How can it be justified that NFL players (with a MINIMUM salary of 400k I might add) have a union to represent them and physicians not? There is power in numbers.

Because labor laws prohibit independent contractors or owners/employers forming a union. Only employees can be union members when it comes to collective bargaining.