2 threads in 1.Get in here y'all! Questions about volunteering and medical school prestige.

[The Buff OP]

It's your favorite SDNerrr TheBuffOP once again.

1)
Hey guys, my first question is only directed to Adcom members.
@Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn
So, I read this one thread about what people thought about first responder volunteering, but there wasn't any Adcom members POV on that thread. I'm currently a volunteer EMT at a 911 service and I have been thinking for a long time about starting the process on becoming a volunteer firefighter. I basically want to volunteer in things that have direct patient contact and help the community. If I were to only have this type of volunteer experience (with tons of hours), would it raise some eyebrows with you guys? You know, you guys won't think I probably chose the wrong Ec's or thinking of the wrong career choice? I want to get a job as a patient care aide (CNA), so I was thinking if I'm already going to work at hospital, why volunteer at a hospital (don't take it the wrong way, though). I do volunteer for hospital's big events, though (health fairs).

2)
Okay SDN peeps, do you guys think a lot of patients sometimes care or make their choice about their doctor on what medical school they attended? I know that we know it doesn't matter what medical school we attend for the most part, but I have heard a lot of people (I guess you can say they have basic knowledge) talk about how their doctor attended Harvard, Yale, Baylor, etc. Maybe some doctors know about that and advertise their medical school as much as they can, like Dr. Rey (Beverley Hills cosmetic surgeon).

Anyways, lets hear your thoughts.

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[Cyberdyne 101]

I figure 99% of patients don't care. I live in Manhattan (the epicenter of snobbery) and I don't recall anyone ever discussing where their doctor went to school. They only remark on their abilities as a physician.

 

[NYCdude]

Isn't where a doctor did their residency weighed more heavily than the school they attended?

 

[The Buff OP]

Isn't where a doctor did their residency weighed more heavily than the school they attended?

We know that, but they mostly think medical school is what taught them everything.

 

[The Buff OP]

I figure 99% of patients don't care. I live in Manhattan (the epicenter of snobbery) and I don't recall anyone ever discussing where their doctor went to school. They only remark on their abilities as a physician.

Brah, it's all about my doctor being in the top 5% in his graduating class. I don't know why, but my English teacher was making this example one day about the "best" doctors went to the top medical schools and all, it got me thinking that some people do think like this.

 

[mimelim]

It's your favorite SDNerrr TheBuffOP once again.

1)
Hey guys, my first question is only directed to Adcom members. @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn
So, I read this one thread about what people thought about first responder volunteering, but there wasn't any Adcom members POV on that thread. I'm currently a volunteer EMT at a 911 service and I have been thinking for a long time about starting to the process on becoming a volunteer firefighter. I basically want to volunteer in things that have direct patient contact and help the community. If I were to only have this type of volunteer experience (with tons of hours), would it raise some eyebrows with you guys? You know, you guys won't think I probably chose the wrong Ec's or thinking of the wrong career choice? I want to get a job as a patient care aide (CNA), so I was thinking if I'm already going to work at hospital, why volunteer at a hospital (don't take it the wrong way, though). I do volunteer for hospital big events, though (health fairs).

2)
Okay SDN peeps, do you guys think a lot of patients sometimes care or make their choice about their doctor on what medical school they attended? I know that we know it doesn't matter what medical school we attend for the most part, but I have heard a lot of people (I guess you can say they have basic knowledge) talk about how their doctor attended Harvard, Yale, Baylor, etc. Maybe some doctors know about that and advertise their medical school as much as they can, like Dr. Rey (Beverley Hills cosmetic surgeon).

Anyways, lets hear your thoughts.

#1 Volunteer EMT/Firefighter is seen in a very positive light almost universally on admissions committees. It would be largely considered a largely altruistic activity. See this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/box-checking.1113839/#post-16029504 for what that means. Do not think that it replaces true physician clinical exposure. Yes, you are seeing patients and helping people, but you aren't really seeing what a physician does, which is at least part of the equation. Volunteering at a hospital is great, but it certainly isn't the end all be all of activities. Remember that the vast majority of healthcare occurs outside of hospitals. It is something that many of us, even in medicine forget and we are biased towards. At the end of the day, we are looking for people that a) Can handle being around patients a lot (the @LizzyM smell test) b) Understand what it means to train as a physician and then live the lifestyle of a physician and c) Want to help people/care. If your EC attests to any of those 3 things, it is going to be seen in a positive light.

#2 There are a select few among patients that are going to care. It is a very small minority. Your residency matters a lot more and even then, the vast majority of the public is ignorant of where you trained at or simply won't care. Just the same way that there are other physicians that will judge you based on where you go.

 

[The Buff OP]

#1 Volunteer EMT/Firefighter is seen in a very positive light almost universally on admissions committees. It would be largely considered a largely altruistic activity. See this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/box-checking.1113839/#post-16029504 for what that means. Do not think that it replaces true physician clinical exposure. Yes, you are seeing patients and helping people, but you aren't really seeing what a physician does, which is at least part of the equation. Volunteering at a hospital is great, but it certainly isn't the end all be all of activities. Remember that the vast majority of healthcare occurs outside of hospitals. It is something that many of us, even in medicine forget and we are biased towards. At the end of the day, we are looking for people that a) Can handle being around patients a lot (the @LizzyM smell test) b) Understand what it means to train as a physician and then live the lifestyle of a physician and c) Want to help people/care. If your EC attests to any of those 3 things, it is going to be seen in a positive light.

#2 There are a select few among patients that are going to care. It is a very small minority. Your residency matters a lot more and even then, the vast majority of the public is ignorant of where you trained at or simply won't care. Just the same way that there are other physicians that will judge you based on where you go.

Roger that.

The smell test, huh? I think the many times I have helped patients who have poop stains in their room and on their clothes falls into this category.

So, even if I work at hospital one on one with doctors, I should still volunteer at a hospital?

 

[LizzyM]

If you are employed at a hospital you have the clinical activity part covered if you are close enough to smell patients -- not like they are two floors away behind a locked door.

If you are able to also devote some unpaid time to community service, all the better. Volunteer firefighter or EMT/ambulance service is good and if you are drawn to that work all the better.

 

[The Buff OP]

If you are employed at a hospital you have the clinical activity part covered if you are close enough to smell patients -- not like they are two floors away behind a locked door.

If you are able to also devote some unpaid time to community service, all the better. Volunteer firefighter or EMT/ambulance service is good and if you are drawn to that work all the better.

Yes, I love doing first responder volunteering. I have a great passion for it and I love it, even though when I only get 2 hours of sleep maximum during my shift (weekend shift of course).

I just don't want to do cookie cutter Ec's. If I find a research opportunity I care about, I'll do it.

 

[LizzyM]

Be careful out there, @The Buff OP

 

[Goro]

I think that you need to get some in-hospital or in-clinic experience as well. Being an EMT just gives you a "bag 'em and tag 'em" type of perspective to Medicine. If you are indeed going to work in a hospital, then doing the volunteering there would be redundant.

Hey guys, my first question is only directed to Adcom members.
Edit: SDN ppl can chime in too.@Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn
So, I read this one thread about what people thought about first responder volunteering, but there wasn't any Adcom members POV on that thread. I'm currently a volunteer EMT at a 911 service and I have been thinking for a long time about starting to the process on becoming a volunteer firefighter. I basically want to volunteer in things that have direct patient contact and help the community. If I were to only have this type of volunteer experience (with tons of hours), would it raise some eyebrows with you guys? You know, you guys won't think I probably chose the wrong Ec's or thinking of the wrong career choice? I want to get a job as a patient care aide (CNA), so I was thinking if I'm already going to work at hospital, why volunteer at a hospital (don't take it the wrong way, though). I do volunteer for hospital big events, though (health fairs).

Patients don't give a rat's ass where you got your degree, nor know the difference between DO or MD, either.
2)
Okay SDN peeps, do you guys think a lot of patients sometimes care or make their choice about their doctor on what medical school they attended? I know that we know it doesn't matter what medical school we attend for the most part, but I have heard a lot of people (I guess you can say they have basic knowledge) talk about how their doctor attended Harvard, Yale, Baylor, etc. Maybe some doctors know about that and advertise their medical school as much as they can, like Dr. Rey (Beverley Hills cosmetic surgeon).

 

[The Buff OP]

Be careful out there, @The Buff OP

I'm not gonna lie, I am going into the "danger zone" (add Top Gun reference here) with trying to become a firefighter. I do have this one thing on the back of my mind I have been wanting to ask on of you guys (Adcom ppl) about my life experiences I had. I want to know if I should go all in or take parts away from it. Can I PM you tomorrow?

 

[The Buff OP]

I think that you need to get some in-hospital or in-clinic experience as well. Being an EMT just gives you a "bag 'em and tag 'em" type of perspective to Medicine. If you are indeed going to work in a hospital, then doing the volunteering there would be redundant.

I can't lie, but this offends me if that's what some people think that about EMT's.
I'm glad this show just came out and gives people a look into the life of a first responder.
http://www.aetv.com/nightwatch/video/retaliation

 

[WingedOx]

I have a family friend that always makes a huge stink about where her doctor went to med school. She's also a relocated New Yorker now living in Florida (and not the brightest person on earth).

 

[Stlblues17]

I can't lie, but this offends me if that's what some people think that about EMT's.
I'm glad this show just came out and gives people a look into the life of a first responder.
http://www.aetv.com/nightwatch/video/retaliation

As I have worked as both a FF/EMT and in the hospital I can attest that emergency care in the field only scratches the surface of what patient care/medicine entails. I wouldn't trade my time working Fire/EMS for anything (it actually inspired me to pursue medicine), but I definitely recommend working in the hospital. Working with patients for extended periods of time and in a true care setting will provide a better experience for what medicine is (I also am still learning all the time, I've worked 4 years in the hospital).

@Goro is not disparaging EMS/first responders, he is just informing you that, in addition, other more prolonged patient contact roles provide for better insight and will help in your application. During interviews I was told that I had an extensive clinical background (multiple roles in multiple settings), which they seem to like.

Best of luck to you.

 

[The Buff OP]

As I have worked as both a FF/EMT and in the hospital I can attest that emergency care in the field only scratches the surface of what patient care/medicine entails. I wouldn't trade my time working Fire/EMS for anything (it actually inspired me to pursue medicine), but I definitely recommend working in the hospital. Working with patients for extended periods of time and in a true care setting will provide a better experience for what medicine is (I also am still learning all the time, I've worked 4 years in the hospital).

@Goro is not disparaging EMS/first responders, he is just informing you that, in addition, other more prolonged patient contact roles provide for better insight and will help in your application. During interviews I was told that I had an extensive clinical background (multiple roles in multiple settings), which they seem to like.

Best of luck to you.

Cool, I'll be alright then if I keep doing what I'm doing and want to do (you did what I want to do).

I definitely get the the extended care part that happens at the ED and upstairs, but you know we do have a big part when it comes to patients care at the beginning (traumas, calming down patients, full arrest calls, putting up with BS stuff, etc).

Congrats on your acceptance, bud!

 

[Ismet]

We know that, but they mostly think medical school is what taught them everything.

Sometimes I think most patients don't even know what medical school is, let alone the stepping stones towards becoming a doctor. When I introduce myself as a medical student, around 75% of my patients think I'm studying to be a nurse.

 

[The Buff OP]

Sometimes I think most patients don't even know what medical school is, let alone the stepping stones towards becoming a doctor. When I introduce myself as a medical student, around 75% of my patients think I'm studying to be a nurse.

Grrrr, that must get you mad lol. So basically on the responses of this thread, most people don't care, it's just a small portion of people who care about where their doctor did his/her education at.

 

[Ismet]

Grrrr, that must get you mad lol. So basically on the responses of this thread, most people don't care, it's just a small portion of people who care about where their doctor did his/her education at.

Nah I don't really mind. They usually have this pleasantly surprised look on their face when I correct them and say I'm studying to be a doctor. Inpatients get inundated with tons of different people (most of whom are now wearing white coats) so confusion about who is what is understandable.

Yeah most people don't care.

 

[The Buff OP]

Nah I don't really mind. They usually have this pleasantly surprised look on their face when I correct them and say I'm studying to be a doctor. Inpatients get inundated with tons of different people (most of whom are now wearing white coats) so confusion about who is what is understandable.

Yeah most people don't care.

Speaking of white coats. At my school they have this rad tech program and the students walk around the school with their white coats on, like I'm pretty sure you would only wear the coats during clinical's at a HOSPITAL.

 

[Willy38]

Grrrr, that must get you mad lol. So basically on the responses of this thread, most people don't care, it's just a small portion of people who care about where their doctor did his/her education at.

I would assume patients care about one thing- you fixing their problem as a genuine human being. While I'm sure one could argue about diversity of opportunities offered at "top" programs, patients just want to know you can adequately fix the problem they are coming to you for. I'm pretty sure the Krebs cycle is the same at Harvard as it is at X SOM. I'm not knocking any type of school here either way, just saying in a patient's eyes competency and experience is likely all that matters.

 

[The Buff OP]

I would assume patients care about one thing- you fixing their problem as a genuine human being. While I'm sure one could argue about diversity of opportunities offered at "top" programs, patients just want to know you can adequately fix the problem they are coming to you for. I'm pretty sure the Krebs cycle is the same at Harvard as it is at X SOM. I'm not knocking any type of school here either way, just saying in a patient's eyes competency and experience is likely all that matters.

Exactly.

 

[Winged Scapula]

So basically on the responses of this thread, most people don't care, it's just a small portion of people who care about where their doctor did his/her education at.

Yep.

A small minority care about where you trained and/or what degree you have. These are generally the type who also prefer "BMS" for their routine care.

Most care about good references from people important to them (their own PCP, friends, family), where your office is (close), what insurance you take, the ease of getting an appointment, and how nice your staff is to them ("affable, available and able").

 

[G_Marker]

.

 

[Mad Jack]

Generally the sorts of patients that care about where you went to school are the sorts of patients you'd rather not be seeing to begin with. They're often the sort that are obsessive elitists that have entitled expectations for their care and are quick to call their lawyer if anything goes the slightest bit wrong. Or at least that's the impression I got dealing with that sort of crowd over the years.

 

[jb94mg]

I guess it's probably just easy for people who lurk SDN to think that just because many people on here are gunning for those types of schools, they need to get into or apply to one as well. Lots of applicants on here get IIs and acceptances from schools like Yale, Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, etc., but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone needs to hope to go to those schools. Like Willy38 said, it's not like the material is really going to be any different, and at the end of the day, you'll be a doctor. The only case in which it seems like it would matter is if you were wanting to be an academic, in which case the reputation of the school where you obtained your MD would probably factor into your getting a good position. Staying away from What Are My Chances and mostly focusing on doing your personal best is probably for the best.

Honestly, in my case, if I even get into an average osteopathic medical school, my family will be impressed and proud. No one in my immediately family has been a doctor (pretty sure 3rd-4th cousins don't count).

 

[The Buff OP]

Staying away from What Are My Chances and mostly focusing on doing your personal best is probably for the best.
Honestly, in my case, if I even get into an average osteopathic medical school, my family will be impressed and proud. No one in my immediately family has been a doctor (pretty sure 3rd-4th cousins don't count).

+1, Brah.

My buddy @Cyberdyne 101 told me not to bother seeing other people's Ec's, I should do what I want to do. I'm starting to change my mind about DO schools too, I will still try to shoot for the stars, though.

 

[Mad Jack]

You should go as high as you can reach. MD, DO, whatever it happens to be.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Let me just clarify this: for some of us (who are/were disadvantaged), certain ECs that appear on MD apps can be a bit intimidating. However, if a specific activity is attainable (and interests you), then you should definitely take advantage of it. And props to everyone who's had multiple years of research, pubs, advanced degrees, etc. Hopefully, I'll have some of those opportunities in the near future.

 

[The Buff OP]

You should go as high as you can reach. MD, DO, whatever it happens to be.

Hell yeah! Ivy league or nothing.

 

[The Buff OP]

Let me just clarify this: for some of us (who are/were disadvantaged), certain ECs that appear on MD apps can be a bit intimidating. However, if a specific activity is attainable (and interests you), then you should definitely take advantage of it. And props to everyone who's had multiple years of research, pubs, advanced degrees, etc. Hopefully, I'll have some of those opportunities in the near future.

Nah, nah, nah, you said if I want to put in my app that I worked on selling my mix-tapes it would be cool.

 

[miamiheatfan]

ots of applicants on here get IIs and acceptances from schools like Yale, Harvard, Stanford, UCSF, etc., but that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone needs to hope to go to those schools. Like Willy38 said, it's not like the material is really going to be any different, and at the end of the day, you'll be a doctor.

THIS can't be stated enough!

 

[emflem]

I don't see how this reflects reality. This seems more like what we wish it were.

When you need to choose a new doctor for insurance or whatever, normally you get about five pieces of information. Name, sex, medical school, languages spoken and specialty.

Assuming they speak English or whatever you need, and maybe choosing a female Ob/Gyn, what else are you going to choose based on?

The population knows that Harvard can pick whoever they want. Why wouldn't a patient choose someone who was good enough for them? Maybe they don't know the schools that US News might rank 20-40, but even my high school friends who dropped out and are doing manual labor have heard of most of the Ivies and Stanford and know that, if you go there, you're really really smart.

And do they not want a really really smart doctor? Unless they only have a choice among similar or unfamiliar schools, it's completely normal and understandable that they go with the big name.

Or look at private practice websites. They always list "Our doctors have graduated from some of the top medical schools, like..." If it was so unimportant, why is it there?

I suspect patients don't bring it up because either 1) they're in the hospital and have no choice or 2) they chose you before they've ever seen you based on your insurance carrier profile.

Again, I'm not saying it's a good thing. Just that the utopian vision doesn't seem to track with reality.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I don't see how this reflects reality. This seems more like what we wish it were.

When you need to choose a new doctor for insurance or whatever, normally you get about five pieces of information. Name, sex, medical school, languages spoken and specialty.

Assuming they speak English or whatever you need, and maybe choosing a female Ob/Gyn, what else are you going to choose based on?

The population knows that Harvard can pick whoever they want. Why wouldn't a patient choose someone who was good enough for them? Maybe they don't know the schools that US News might rank 20-40, but even my high school friends who dropped out and are doing manual labor have heard of most of the Ivies and Stanford and know that, if you go there, you're really really smart.

And do they not want a really really smart doctor? Unless they only have a choice among similar or unfamiliar schools, it's completely normal and understandable that they go with the big name.

Or look at private practice websites. They always list "Our doctors have graduated from some of the top medical schools, like..." If it was so unimportant, why is it there?

I suspect patients don't bring it up because either 1) they're in the hospital and have no choice or 2) they chose you before they've ever seen you based on your insurance carrier profile.

Again, I'm not saying it's a good thing. Just that the utopian vision doesn't seem to track with reality.

Again, you're talking about a small population that thinks about these things and cares. The reality is that most patients don't care. The phrase "affable, available and able" exists because its true. But for that certain segment, mentioning pedigree will bring them in.

Are there patients who prefer an Ivy league educated physician? Sure.
Are there patients who prefer an MD over DO? Sure. (that's why my partners who are DOs list themselves as "Dr" rather than by degree)
Are there patients who think an Ivy league doctor might be too aloof/not caring/not down to earth etc for them? Sure.

You're not giving patients enough credit. They do look us up. They ask around. They read on line reviews. But a Harvard pedigree is not that important to most patients unless everything else (referrals, word of mouth, reviews etc) is also top tier. You may not want that to be the case but it is the reality for *most* patients.

 

[Willy38]

Personally I would prefer a highly academic and research encouraging environment like you would find at "top" schools but that's not everyone's cup of tea. At the end of the day, I believe you get out what you put in. You can be as good of a doctor as you want to be, you just have to be willing to work hard and take full advantage of the resources available no matter where you're at. (although the extent of these resources may vary school to school)

Docs and current med students I'm sure will have a more informed opinion than I do, but these are just thoughts.