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2012 Internship Match Discussion

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by Therapist4Chnge, 02.24.12.

  1. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    This is a follow-up thread to the 2010/2011 thread located here.

    I pulled out the data I thought were most telling, though I encourage others to pull any data they want to talk about. I'll add more to this when I get a chance.

    2012 Match Statistics
    Total Registered Applicants: 4,435...6% increase compared to last year.
    Matched: 2968
    Not Matched: 1041
    Withdrew: 426
    APA-Acred: 2315
    Non-Acred: 653

    %-Match of All Registered Match Participants to APA-acred sites: 52.2%

    Think about that for a second....of ALL applicants trying to get matched to an internship site in 2012, only 52.2% of applicants successfully matched to an APA-acred internship site.

    *edit to add*
    AcronymAllergy: "...only 53.2% of them had any shot at all of matching to an APA-accredited spot (4435 total applicants for 2361 total APA-accredited placements)."

    *More data to come*
    Last edited: 02.24.12
  2. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist Moderator

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    I think perhaps one of the starkest of all figures is that if all registered applicants participated in the match, only 53.2% of them had any shot at all of matching to an APA-accredited spot (4435 total applicants for 2361 total APA-accredited placements).
  3. sikestudent

    sikestudent

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    It really makes you wonder how much longer APA accred will be considered the "standard". At this rate, not too far down the road, the MINORITY of applicants will get one!
  4. GoPokes

    GoPokes Graduate Student

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    Considering I'm starting my first year of doctoral training this coming Fall... the future looks bleak :( :( :(
  5. MCParent

    MCParent SDN Bronze Donor Bronze Donor

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  6. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist Moderator

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    That's a very scary thought indeed. APA accreditation was originally intended to be a "bare minimum;" to have sites start attempting to offer positions that don't even meet those standards (rather than addressing the primary issue of churning out too many graduates) would be a very bad thing.
  7. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    So my program's match rate was just over 50%, which is a huge disaster for them and not at all typical. In comments, the director said that the APA, when accrediting graduate programs, looks more at student attrition than at whether students complete APA accredited internships. Is that true? If so, the current imbalance, at least the part due to too many applicants from a handful of schools, can't last too long... Students who don't match repeatedly (like me) will drop out, their programs will lose accreditation because they can't keep/graduate students, and there will be fewer students competing for APA (and APPIC member) internships (if the programs can't match students, they'll come up with alternatives to APA internships to graduate their students and keep accreditation OR they'll have fewer students applying because some left after not matching).

    Sorry for the rambling. I didn't cry today and I haven't felt too down but I have had too much caffeine and didn't sleep well last night. :p

    I'd appreciate someone explaining the differences between an APPIC member internship and an APA accredited one. To me, the difference seems to be a self-study. What else is there?
  8. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    There is much more follow-up and review for APA-acred. The process is quite laborious. If you do a search on here for APA, APPIC, and internship....some good info should pop up. I believe I've written responses about this in the past, but it has probably been 1-3 years.
  9. sikestudent

    sikestudent

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    I don't know all the details, but I believe APA has higher standards for quality/frequency of didactics, amount of stipend, etc
  10. psyche27

    psyche27

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    I work for an internship site that is in the APA accreditation process. I think to say that it's quite laborious is an understatement. We've been in the process for about 3 years now (since self-study completion). We've spent a significant amount of time, money, and effort in order to get the stamp of approval and our site has suffered because of it. One of the things we frequently talk about in my setting is the ways that the process makes it difficult for a site to become accredited for very little reward (and very large expense). In my opinion a major part of the imbalance that has been overlooked is the process of getting accreditation for internship sites. The process needs to be streamlined and supported so that well deserving sites can reflect that for their interns.
  11. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    I was at a site that went through a re-acred., and there was a 3+ inch binder that represented our re-acred. documentation. Site reviewers came for a 2 day review and interviewed faculty, hospital staff, interns, and anyone else that was related to the internship. I appreciate the thoroughness, but it is at the detriment of sites who don't have the time/resources to devote to the APA acrd. process.
  12. Jon Snow

    Jon Snow Senior Member

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    Hmm. . . perhaps some streamlining might be helpful, indeed.
  13. psyche27

    psyche27

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    It's even more difficult for initial accreditation because a lot of what APA sends out in its documentation is unclear and so sites have to do a lot of guesswork to figure out how their program fits into the G&P. The reasoning that we've been told behind the vagueness is to allow each program to fit their program into the G&P in the ways that work best for them, except in reality what fits best for the program may not be what exactly APA wants. A lot of time/resources would be saved if APA would be more clear about what they want and how they want it.

    Having people who are dedicated to walking sites through this process and explaining what APA wants would help to streamline the process and make it a lot more likely that more sites would spend the thousands of dollars that accreditation takes. Right now it's similar to how in grad school students ask other students for advice about how to best succeed on various hoops and sometimes the advice is good and sometimes the advice is so far out into left field as to be laughable.
  14. docma

    docma

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    YES. There is a lot of mis-information and mis-understanding about why sites remain non-APA. There is an enormous workload and expense associated with becoming accredited and many quality training sites in public service settings simply cannot get over the threshold due to costs and the hours that must be dedicated to the self-study and beyond. Especially in these times of increased clinical demands, decreased funding and economic uncertainty, it is hard for a site to make the multi-year committment involved in trying to become accredited, especially when their administration sees that well-qualified candidates apply and match as it is. APA and the graduate schools need to organize some external resources to support and streamline the process in order to make accreditation more accessible for existing APPIC programs. It is being discussed at the next APPIC meeting but how the logistics for implementation will evolve is still to be seen.
  15. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Many do and many do not. Many posters on this board have been unmatched on their first attempt (either found a place in the old Clearinghouse, waited to apply and match a year later, matched in Phase II, etc.). At a certain point, it comes down to luck.
  16. paramour

    paramour

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    I rambled on the APA internship thread already regarding our program's match rate this year (50%; PhD-univ).

    We are in the midst of our APA-accreditation site visit this year. One of our concerns was student attrition (because we've had a heck of a lot of students leave over the years, especially over the past few--and the program had to explain away each & every one of them . . . which they did, oh, so very, well, by explaining that they were "personal problems," nothing to do with the university :rolleyes:), and the other was match rate. We've had 100% match rate the past few years, but prior to that we had a few "lower" years--but nothing as low as this!
  17. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    Darn, why is the APA so gullible?

    Also, because there are so many students technically enrolled in my program (>100), the overall attrition rate is low, even when 3-8 students drop out most years.

    Maybe more funded programs got screwed internshipwise this year and they'll push for some changes... :xf: ... There's no reason for programs that have students pay tuition each year like mine to complain about the internship imbalance or push for changes, as they make more money when students don't match and hang around a few extra years (even if they drop out eventually). *grumble grumble grumble*
  18. paramour

    paramour

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    The APA gullible?

    :laugh:

    Our program actually told us . . .

    Be open with the APA--Buuut it's also not in your best interest to complain about anything because you will screw yourself over if we lose accreditation. :smuggrin:

    We have some of those folks who "hang around a few extra years" (I think that was another reason we had the APA on our tails). I think *most* of them have finally graduated or on their way finally. Although I know we have one or two still around. One of those who did not match was one of the "more advanced" in their 7th/8th year. :( The individual is not incompetent by any means; simply had some difficulties with departmental advisors and finally had to change labs to get things moving (seems to happen to some of us around here--myself included!).
  19. Markp

    Markp Clinical Psychologist

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    This is just criminal... Seriously. It is completely a failure of both the APA and the accredited programs generating students they cannot place.
  20. Qwnpixie

    Qwnpixie

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    SOOO scary. so, so, so scary. I don't know what else to say.
  21. clinpsychtexas

    clinpsychtexas

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    So does anyone really know what the repercussions would be of taking a non-APA accredited internship? At this point it might be a good option for me. Of course, all I can find out is that most states want you to have one but you can still get licensed regardless.

    I'm getting a lot of different answers and most of the faculty are extremely against it but then again most of them are either not licensed or have been forever.
  22. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist Moderator

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    It will automatically bar you from any VA job for one. I believe there are other organizations that require APA accred, but I can't think of any off hand. I don't know that any states explicitly require APA accred at the internship level for licensure as of yet.

    If you plan on getting boarded, it could make that process more difficult. And if you anticipate conducting any forensic work, it could also make that a bit of an uphill battle for you.

    But if you plan on going entirely into private practice, it may not present much of an issue for you.
  23. clinpsychtexas

    clinpsychtexas

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    well, actually, from what I've found out you can work at the VA after 5 years of being licensed.

    I also haven't been able to find anything that says the INTERNSHIP has to be accredited. the phD from the accredited school, yes.

    Forensic work as in being an expert witness?
  24. NotTheHoff

    NotTheHoff On Internship

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    Check the licensing requirements for the states you are most likely considering, as I believe one or two states may actually require an APA-accredited internship. In any event yes, there appear to be fewer hurdles having a non-accredited internship but coming from an accredited program as opposed to the reverse. There may be some logistical issues in assuring the state that your internship met their requirements. It may not hurt to ask a non-accredited site itself, as I'm sure they've had to deal with any of the paperwork necessary for their former interns seeking licensure.
  25. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist Moderator

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    For the VA clinical psychologist jobs I've found posted, this is always listed in the requirements:

    "Have successfully completed a professional psychology internship training program that has been accredited by APA. Exceptions: (1) new VHA psychology internship programs that are in the process of applying for APA accreditation are acceptable in fulfillment of the internship requirement, provided that such programs were sanctioned by the VHA Central Office Program Director for Psychology and the VHA Central Office of Academic Affiliations at the time that the individual was an intern and (2) VHA facilities who offered full one-year pre-doctoral internships prior to PL 96-151 (pre-1979) are considered to be acceptable in fulfillment of the internship requirement."

    Given that none of us likely trained in a full-time one-year internship prior to 1979, APA accred seems to be a requirements.

    And for the forensic work, I mostly meant expert witness/IME-type work, yes. The BOP likely has their own requirements as well, although I honestly don't know what they might be.
  26. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist-Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

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    Requires an APA internship. Period.
  27. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    This.
  28. docma

    docma

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    Confusion sometimes arises because you can be employed in VA research and teaching positions as a psychologist if you did not complete an APA accredited internship. But you cannot be a "clinical" psychologist providing direct clinical services without the APA accredited internship. There are also affiliated programs between VAs and university medical centers and universities do sometimes recognize that there are well-qualified psychologists did not gain the privilege of an APA accredited internship but are still qualified worthy psychologists and skilled professors. The APA path is always the most conservative and most flexible path to take.
  29. clinpsychtexas

    clinpsychtexas

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    so is this coming from you that are in the field and licensed already?

    I'm not trying to be argumentative but I am having a hard time finding any requirements for licensure than the following:
    1. graduate from an APA-accredited phD program
    2. Pass EPPP
    3. Pass Jurisprudence
    4. Orals (some states)

    I guess I feel like out of the 50ish internships left to apa-accredited sites with roughly 1000 people applying to them that my chances are not that great. bottom line is I want to graduate. No one seems to be able to give me a straight answer and it feels like it's some sort of urban legend that it somehow affects your career or your ability to have a job you want.
  30. RileyG

    RileyG School of Hard Knocks

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    Well not 100% of the time. If you complete you internship at a VA that is not yet APA accredited you can still work at VAs in the future. However, if your internship is not accredited and not at a VA, then no, you will not be able to work at a VA in the future.
  31. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist-Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

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    From the horses mouth:
    http://www.psychologytraining.va.gov/eligibility.asp

    "To be eligible for employment as a VA Psychologist, a person must be a U.S. citizen and must have completed an APA-accredited graduate program in Clinical or Counseling Psychology AND must have completed an APA-accredited internship in Psychology. The only exception is for those who complete a new VA internship that is not yet accredited."

    More general info about completing unaccredited internships from APPIC:
    http://www.appic.org/Match/FAQs/Applicants/Eligibility-and-Participation

    FUTURE EMPLOYERS: Some psychologist positions require applicants to have completed an accredited internship program. For example, psychologist positions at Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) hospitals and clinics require completion of an APA-accredited (not CPA-accredited) internship program (please see the footnote below for more information about VA requirements). Furthermore, a considerable number of employment and postdoctoral fellowship positions require or prefer applicants to have completed accredited internships. So, attending an accredited internship can help with future employment, while attending a non-accredited internship can be a barrier to some opportunities. On the other hand, some individuals report that completing a non-accredited internship does not hurt them in the job market.

    SUMMARY OF VA REQUIREMENTS: Veterans Affairs (VA) hospitals and clinics require a psychologist to be a U.S. Citizen, to have graduated from an APA-accredited doctoral program, and to have completed an APA-accredited internship. CPA-accredited doctoral programs and internships do not qualify. However, under certain circumstances, new VA psychology internship programs that are in the process of applying for APA accreditation are acceptable in fulfillment of the internship requirement. Further, US law requires that a male cannot be considered for federal employment unless he registered with the Selective Service system before his 26th birthday; anyone who fails to do so is forever ineligible for US government employment, including training programs. If you have questions about specific VA internship programs, or about the eligibility requirements for VA employment, please contact Dr. Robert Zeiss at the VA's Office of Academic Affiliations at 202-461-9493 or via e-mail at Robert.Zeiss@va.gov.
    Last edited: 03.01.12
  32. O Gurl

    O Gurl

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    Totally understandable. However, you have probably invested a lot of time, energy, and money (lost income, tuition, etc) into the pursuit of your doctorate. Do you really want to start your career behind the 8-ball? It may not sound like a major issue, but preference for APA internships in the job market is a huge factor. Like many have mentioned, some employers will outright not consider applicants with non-APA internships and others have a "strong preference" for APA internships. With the huge numbers of well trained psychologists in the job market, this is essentially the same as a flat out restriction. None of us can predict what life has in store. So just imagine that you are post-licensure and looking to relocate (for whatever reason) or change up your career (teaching, research/clinical position at an academic center, heck, commission as an officer in the military ;) and become a military psychologist... whatever ) then think that many, if not all, of these doors will be closed to you because of a decision you made years ago. Not a pretty picture.

    If at all possible, I urge you to hang in there and stick it out for an accredited internship.
  33. busybusybusy

    busybusybusy

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    There are certain states that ONLY will license people that had an APA Accredited internship. Mississippi is the only one I can think of off the top of my head, but I believe there are others.

    Look on this website under the jurisdictional handbooks for each state, it will tell you the requirements for each.

    http://www.asppb.net/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3343
  34. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist Moderator

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    This is an excellent resource, and I highly recommend that everyone (early in their training if possible) examine the licensure requirements of the state(s) in which they plan to settle down.

    With the VA, as you're working for a federal entity, you can be licensed in any state (which is one reason why many VA employees will get licensed in a state with lower/easier reqs, such as AL). However, as previously mentioned, the APA requirement comes from the VA itself for its clinical psychologists, not from any individual state's licensure reqs.
  35. ClinicalABA

    ClinicalABA

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    Completing a non-APA accredited internship may also mean that you have to do a lot more work come licensure time in terms of documenting that your non-APA internship met certain standards (as apposed to just checking box that says "completed an APA accredited internship". While a state may not require an APA internship, their internship requirements may be similar or identical to what APA accreditation requires. This is the case in MA where I am licensed, and is the case in Texas, as well (see http://www.tsbep.state.tx.us/files/applications/Application-Packet-LP.pdf). The APA accreditation basically tells you that your internship will meet requirements for licensure. If the internship is not accredited, you'll have to assure that it meets the requirements (things you might not think to ask, like appropriate number of interns/faculty, number of supervision and seminar hours, licensure status/expertise of supervisors, percentage time in direct client contact, formal intern progress evaluation procedures). You'd be smart to do this before considering taking an non-approved internship, rather than find out come licensing time that it didn't meet requirements.
  36. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist Moderator

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    Very good points. Basically, the APA accreditation saves you from having to jump through additional hoops; without it, as ClinicalABA mentioned, the burden of proof falls on you in terms of providing documentation that your internship site met the state's licensure requirements.

    Again as ClinicalABA mentioned, if you go the non-APA internship route, carefully examine your desired state's/states' licensure laws BEFORE beginning internship so that you can maintain appropriate documentation as needed.
  37. CSOPP

    CSOPP

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    If you want to work for the BOP, you must have an accred. internship UNLESS you have an internship with a non-accred. BOP. Then your treated as "family," despite the lack of accred.
  38. APPICSucks

    APPICSucks

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    Completing a non-APA accredited internship precludes you from becoming ABPP certified. It would also make joining the National Register more difficult in that you have to confirm that your internship met certain criteria.
  39. AcronymAllergy

    AcronymAllergy Neuropsychologist Moderator

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    So it's fairly similar to the VA in that respect, then. Good to know, thank you.
  40. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    As people said above, if you want a VA job or a BOP job, accreditation matters. If you're okay not having the ability to do these jobs, for at least the next decade and possibly ever (requirements can always change as accreditation changes), then go for a non-APA internship. If either of these is your dream job, you're going to have to wait for an APA accredited position. (This is my second year going through the match, so I get that it's a total pain to wait another year, but these are the things you have to consider.)

    I wanted to correct your numbers a little bit, too, to give a clearer picture of the situation to anyone reading this. There are 1467 possible applicants in Phase II (including the 1041 who "participated" but didn't match in Phase I and the 426 who withdrew or didn't submit rank lists). There were 46 APA accredited positions left unfilled after Phase I. Currently, there are 29 APA accredited sites (some sites have multiple positions) left for Phase II. (http://www.appic.org/Match/APPIC-Match-Phase-II/Phase-II-News) So that is maybe 46 APA positions for maybe 1467 applicants. 3% of people who haven't matched yet this year have a chance of getting an APA accredited internship. Maximum 3% of people left will get an APA position in Phase II. There are 222 total positions left, including those 46 APA accredited sites. So a maximum of 15% (3 in 20) applicants who haven't matched will match.

    Overall, 72% of applicants who registered for the match can match to a position. That's 3190 positions for 4435 registered applicants. It's really bad and getting worse every year (and the more times you go through the match, the less your chance of matching, though that's correlation not causation).

    So, if you're set on VA life, you'll have to try again next year. If you're not, I hope you got those applications submitted for Phase II. Good luck! :luck: (There are 5-6 VAs in Phase II, including the Orlando VA which was a latecomer this year.)
  41. zeldazelda

    zeldazelda

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    I also had a professor tell me that a non-APA accredited internship can make it more difficult to be accepted by insurance panels for private practice reimbursement. Not that it can't be done but that it would make it somewhat harder because you have to document more about your training. I would imagine this would depend on the insurance company and have no idea whether this is a big issue or not.
  42. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    I'm wondering where you got that first part. ABPP requires an APA accredited grad program but doesn't require an APA internship generically (across specialties). Are there specialties that require APA and won't let an alternative APPIC member internship suffice? In my quick/limited look, both child/adolescent psych, clinical psych, and forensic allow APA/CPA accredited internships, internships that were listed in the APPIC directory during the year of completion, or whatever internship given that "the applicant is listed in the NRHSPP or CRHSPP Directory or holds the CPQ."

    This part is pretty common and I bet the National Register people deal with it all the time, given how the Match numbers have been for years.
  43. clinpsychtexas

    clinpsychtexas

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    wow thanks so much everyone! I really appreciate the input.

    Orlando VA is a late comer but is not a member of APPIC. anyone know if that is a problem?
  44. neuronic

    neuronic

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  45. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    I've been told that it's not a problem, if you want to work in the VA system. Doing a VA internship that is not accredited but later gets accredited is just fine with the VA system, I believe was the message. But I wasn't really paying attention because I work with kids, so others can better answer this.
  46. erg923

    erg923 Psychologist-Department of Veterans Affairs (VA)

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    New VHA internship sites, assuming they are top of things (and they usually are cause they are under pressure from big wigs at the national level), will likely get the APPIC membership thing before the first year class in done with. Its not nearly as ardous as APA accredidation.
  47. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Senior Lurker

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    I think "best training" is often confused with "extra money and time to burn on the accreditation process." Many APPIC member sites offer training comparable/equivalent to that available at APA accredited sites, they just don't have the label for whatever reason. (Not saying all non-APA sites are comparable but a lot - scientific term here - are. That's why these places offer the alternative path.)

    So Neuro requires APA for ABPP. Child/adolescent, clinical, and forensic do not (though APA accredited sites and APPIC member sites are preferred/mucheasier).

    Any others that require APA?
  48. neuronic

    neuronic

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    Yeah I should have chosen words more carefully. I didn't mean "best" as in anyway saying APA was superior training. More so that the process was more strict and regulated, which can be good or bad depending on how you view things.
  49. niknok

    niknok

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    Just to clarify, it's not true that you have to have a VA internship to work at the VA, you can work at the VA as long as you completed an APA internship.
  50. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty Moderator Emeritus

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    I think they meant to imply that there is a waiver for people who complete their internship at VA sites that are seeking APA-acred, but don't yet have it during the time of internship. Barring that one exception, an APA-acred. internship is required to be elligible to apply to and work for the VA system. Any APA-acred. internship would meet that standard, even if it is not in the VA system. As a former VA employee, I wouldn't mind if they limited job opens to former VA interns....but that's just me being selfish. :laugh:

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