I'm in a very competitive part of the country and i'm applying to 8 sites because I'm not able to move too far from home. I also truly believe in quality over quantity. When we were applying for internship, many of us started earlier and had more time to put into each application since we were not working 50+ hours doing clinical work. I worked on my internship applications for a few months. This year is different because we have very intense clinical hours and most people only start looking in Mid-November or so. Plus, i'm sure we are all BURNT OUT. I think if I apply to more sites, the quality of each application will diminish. I am confident with my decision and feel that if I do a good job on my applications, something will work out. I don't need to get my first or second choice either, and there are some options later on in the year as well if things don't work out (e.g., informal opportunities etc.). Its only a year as well so it does not have to be the perfect post-doc. I know for myself than anything more than 9 or 10 would be too much work with all my other responsibilities.
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Thanks for the info. From my experience, however, this is not very applicable when applying to clinical post-docs. The competition level for clinical post-docs is worse than what I went through on internship in terms of the # of applicants vs. # of spots. Many sites i'm looking at are only accepting 1-2 applicants and there are between 90-400 applications. Some sites accept 7-10, which is better. This is in CA of course. It worked out for me for internship so we'll see if I can still beat crazy odds. Its frustrating not to be able to control the process. I keep reminding myself that I matched at an internship site that is very competitive so I have to keep doing what I've been doing all along.
Absolutely. There are only about 80 post-doctoral sites in the entire country on APPIC!!! Again, you have to be geographically flexible. You have to be wiling to move for internship and post-doctoral fellowship. This field is really ****ty for people with kids, sick parents, partners, etc. God forbid you get married or have children while you are in training for 7 years....
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This is what I'm struggling with right now. I've already moved across the country 3 times for grad school (masters program, doc program, then internship), and I'm not willing to live in yet another random location. It's just not worth it anymore. There are a couple postdocs in my desired area that are good fits, and many that aren't. So, I've decided to only apply to those two positions and then wait for job openings to be posted in the spring. Seems like my options are to 1) have no geographical restrictions and spend yet another year away from my spouse, but receive good training 2) apply to all postdoc positions in my desired city and likely wind up with a spot that makes me miserable and is irrelevant for what I want to do in my career, or 3) do what I'm doing. I've made my choice, but can't help but feel extremely anxious about it.
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Yep. Unfortunately (as Pragma, T4C, erg, and others can all attest), the relocate vs. stay put for postdoc debate (and potential trade-off in terms of prospects) is near and dear to many of our hearts. As an "unfettered" individual, my options were very open, but I certainly had my heart and mind set on finally returning home after my umpteen years of grad school and internship. Unfortunately, essentially all of the neuro postdocs in my state of interest weren't, for one reason or another, taking applicants last year.
I'm actually very happy with where I've landed (it was my top choice in all areas other than locale), but as a result, I'm about four states away from where I'd one day like to be.
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I'm applying to 10 neuropsychology post docs, but have pretty significant limitations on geographic area (which just so happens to be Boston, lucky me) due to family / life circumstances.
2 things:
1. 1 site is asking for my undergraduate transcripts!!!
2. I am sort of worried about applications & dissertation status. Data is all collected and most of the analyses are done and I have begun to write up the results, but on all my apps I have to put it is not done yet (apps which are due in 2-3 weeks from now). My dissertation chair is happy to write that I will be done by the time I start post doc (and I know I will), but how much of a knock is it to not have it defended at the time of application?
2 things:
1. 1 site is asking for my undergraduate transcripts!!!
2. I am sort of worried about applications & dissertation status. Data is all collected and most of the analyses are done and I have begun to write up the results, but on all my apps I have to put it is not done yet (apps which are due in 2-3 weeks from now). My dissertation chair is happy to write that I will be done by the time I start post doc (and I know I will), but how much of a knock is it to not have it defended at the time of application?
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Seriously, why do post doc places want undergrad transcripts? I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to reactive my undergrad account and obtain it. It's redonkulous and kind of a slap to the face...I mean, if we made it this far, who cares if you got a C+ in Chemistry II that one time spring semester of freshman year because you were too busy chasing girls? (hypothetically speaking).
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Or keg beer...
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I'm really struggling with the same thing many of you are... to apply all over or try to go back to my home state and stop torturing my partner with all this moving/living apart.
If I'm perfectly honest about what I want in training AND geographic location, then I have 3 PERFECT options, 2 GREAT options, 1 GOOD option, and 1 ACCEPTABLE option (it's a community counseling center rather than my desired ped. psych). The good thing about the "acceptable" one is that the app isn't due until April, so it can be one of those fall backs to apply to if I don't "match". I find myself frantically wondering if 6 places is enough. There are a few fantastic ones in other states (including one at my current place of internship) that I could add, but it involves my partner having to move and would severely disrupt his career. He's open to it, but still....
Decisions, decisions.
If I'm perfectly honest about what I want in training AND geographic location, then I have 3 PERFECT options, 2 GREAT options, 1 GOOD option, and 1 ACCEPTABLE option (it's a community counseling center rather than my desired ped. psych). The good thing about the "acceptable" one is that the app isn't due until April, so it can be one of those fall backs to apply to if I don't "match". I find myself frantically wondering if 6 places is enough. There are a few fantastic ones in other states (including one at my current place of internship) that I could add, but it involves my partner having to move and would severely disrupt his career. He's open to it, but still....
Decisions, decisions.
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In my personal experience, it didn't hurt me at all. Part of it might've had to do with my advisor to some degree (I'm honestly not sure), but once I had the APPCN agreement form filled out, no one brought it up more than either just to briefly ask what the status was, or to actually discuss the topic (and not the state of the paper) in depth.
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Hey everyone!
I am mostly struggling to find Post Docs. I have looked at the APPIC website and the CAPPIC website where else are you guys finding places to apply to?!
I am mostly struggling to find Post Docs. I have looked at the APPIC website and the CAPPIC website where else are you guys finding places to apply to?!
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Probably depends on the specialty area you're looking into. With neuro, for example, the neuro listserve, combined with the APPCN and Division 40 websites, got me most of my "finds." I also located one or two via the Monitor and a random Google search.
So individual APA division websites and listserves can be a great place to start. The APPIC postdoc listserve also sends out very regular updates on positions.
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Thanks! I am looking for clinical psychology positions in community mental health with psychodynamic orientations...rather specific I know! Any other suggestions?
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ok, that is really good news!
Now, to worry about how my (sort of crappy) undergrad GPA is going to affect things... oy! I can't believe I have to even think about this. I finished undergrad 11 years ago.
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Completely understand the frustration. I promptly dropped one or two sites from my own list last year when I learned that they required undergrad transcripts. I just couldn't justify to myself the time it would've taken to track them all down (I attended multiple colleges), nor did I really see any actual purpose for doing so.
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Hi everyone! I too am in the process of applying for postdocs. I'm married with two small children and have already relocated for internship. I can't believe how stressful and EXPENSIVE the move was but I got my #1 ranked internship and the training has (probably) been worth it. But the thought of relocating again for a postdoc and then potentially again for a regular jobs literally makes me nauseous. I am from CA but don't think my family can afford to live there on a postdoc salary. I would also like to go back to the town where I completed my Ph.D. but there is only one site that is a good match.
I'm planning to apply to about 12 sites because as much as I don't want to have to move, I HAVE to have income to support my family. One of the postdocs at my site applied to 15 sites and only got one offer and she seems really fantastic. So that makes me nervous.
It feels like just yesterday we were applying for internships. I'm sick of applying for a new job every year!
Speaking of internships...I hope you all are at least enjoying yours!
I'm planning to apply to about 12 sites because as much as I don't want to have to move, I HAVE to have income to support my family. One of the postdocs at my site applied to 15 sites and only got one offer and she seems really fantastic. So that makes me nervous.
It feels like just yesterday we were applying for internships. I'm sick of applying for a new job every year!
Speaking of internships...I hope you all are at least enjoying yours!
Does anyone know if the APA is doing anything to address the post-doctoral crisis?!? Everyone talks about the internship crisis, but i'm finding that applying to post-doc sites is even tougher since there are literally so few sites out there. 45 states or so still require post-doctoral hours for licensure. How are people supposed to get licensed with such a small number of options and thousands of graduate students graduating each year? There are at least 5,000 graduates and only 80 sites nationwide that even provide formal post-docs. I know many people who matched for an APA internship, but did not find a post-doctoral fellowship. Some people find informal arrangements but these are not regulated and may not provide the supervision they need to get licensed in a timely manner.
The APA wrote an article on the postdoc trap 12 years ago, although it doesn't seem like they did anything to remedy the problem: http://www.apa.org/monitor/may00/postdoc.aspx
Yep, there are 146. I checked one of the filters by accident. However, there are 647 sites for internship. This explains why i'm having such a tough time finding sites that are a good fit or enough sites at all within one state.
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This. Additionally, there are countless informal postdoc opportunities available, to the point that I'd almost venture a guess that's the norm for most individuals upon coming out of internship.
My experience may indeed have been unique and/or an outlier, but I truly didn't feel that there was nearly as much of a crunch for postdoc positions as there was for internship spots...and this in light of a 50-60% match rate for neuropsych. Much of the strain in neuro, for example, is alleviated by individuals taking non-match spots, whether those be formal or informal postdocs.
I'll agree that there are no doubt going to be fewer formal post-doc offerings per state than is available for internship. However, I'd also imagine that you could probably email two dozen private practices, hospitals, and other providers, and receive more than a few "hits" willing to provide the necessary postdoctoral supervision. This also says nothing about the jobs in which such supervision is essentially built-in, such as with a position in a university, the VA, or an academic medical center.
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Uninvited rant:
Why oh why do some postdoc sites, in the year 2012, require ONE ENVELOPE with all materials including letters of rec? It seems a bit cruel.
-End rant-
Thanks.
Why oh why do some postdoc sites, in the year 2012, require ONE ENVELOPE with all materials including letters of rec? It seems a bit cruel.
-End rant-
Thanks.
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Haha I actually ended up appreciating/preferring that approach. Given the overall hecticness that was the application process, having to use a single envelope for everything let me ensure that all my materials were indeed on their way to the site.
I also didn't mind the sites that allowed everything to be submitted electronically, since I could just attach all my materials to a single email, and could check in with letter writers about the status of their stuff.
The hardest to keep up with were the sites that required me to send hard copies of most materials in a single packet, but to have transcripts mailed directly from my school, and letters emailed individually by each writer.
Why oh why do some sites also require undergrad transcripts and essays? There are some seriously sadistic people in this field. Many people already got weeded out by the cruel internship process, and these sites require APA internships.
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Especially because of the extra burden it places on letter writers. It's frustrating enough that they have to email letters to some sites, and mail letters to others. Now they have to remember to put a letter in a double envelope so they can mail it to the applicant? That's super annoying. Plus, I'm guessing that means they need to mail those letters earlier than the rest, in order to allow time for it to get to you before you mail your whole application. I know that these aren't huge hassles, but if someone's already doing me the huge favor of writing me a letter, I really don't want to add any extra steps for them.
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Crikey. I sent in 2 apps this morning. It's officially real.
How is everyone else doing with completing applications?
How is everyone else doing with completing applications?Crikey. I sent in 2 apps this morning. It's officially real.
CONGRATS! I already sent one out and it felt great to pres SEND
The rest are due in January so I'm gradually sending those in over time. I'm being way less obsessive than I was with my internship applications. I remember editing stuff so many times and getting feedback and then re-editing. I don't think anyone picked up on minor errors and spacing issues at the end. Who has energy for that process again? This time I know that if I don't get something, I can piece something together and there are opportunities that come up later in the year, including regular jobs.
Does anyone know when interviews start for those that have applications that are due in December? I want to make travel plans
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I haven't yet submitted any applications, but I've set aside time this weekend to make it happen. I've finalized a list of 6 sites that are great fits and made a goal to apply to all by Dec. 10th. All my recommenders are sending recs directly, either electronically or by mail, by Dec. 24th (or so they've agreed). I've identified two "backups" that don't review apps until May in the case of me not securing one of my six choices. I'm going back and forth between feeling like 6 is a nice number and panicking that 6 can't possibly be enough. Let the games begin.
I'm going back and forth between feeling like 6 is a nice number and panicking that 6 can't possibly be enough. Let the games begin. 
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+1 I liked it that way as well.
I hated having things sent from 3 different places.
I've been looking at clinical post-docs and I already have my list set. However, I've been looking up additional opportunities in my state and I can say that there are PLENTY of UNPAID post-doctoral opportunities in community clinics, hospital programs, and psychological centers associated with freestanding institutions. These places don't advertise but take on a ton of students for post-doc fellowships (mostly from free standing professional schools). I'm obviously not applying for anything unpaid but was still surprised by the plethora of unpaid opportunities, particularly in CA.
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What other professions work for free after obtaining their doctorates? I'm curious...
Do postdoc sites really have a problem with us "seeing" the rec letters? I was under the assumption that I could send a single email with all of the materials including the recs. Would it be better practice to have the rec letters sent from the actual supervisor/advisor?
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Based on the difficulty a couple of my friends in other fields have had trying to find faculty and postdoctoral spots, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some of them hadn't at least considered it. Then again, most of their grad school professors were "generous" enough to offer them slightly-funded spots to stay on as postdocs until they were able to find jobs.
I think the issue with clinical psych is just the larger number of graduates we churn out, possibly coupled with an even greater disparity between how some students seem to think the real-world job market looks vs. the actuality of what's out there.
From what I saw online, the students that pick these unpaid post-docs seemed to go to the non-reputable freestanding schools. I don't know that people from good programs even consider these post-docs.
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I would be surprised if that weren't the case, yes. But at the same time, I don't think psych is entirely unique in having people who would consider unpaid spots to further their training. With us, it's a mandatory part of our training, so we're placed at even more of a disadvantage when compared with other doctoral program graduates, who ultimately could decide to work in a completely unrelated position without having it literally prevent them from practicing in their field in the future.
That being said, this isn't the same as me agreeing with the spots being offered in the first place. I think it could easily be seen as deplorable and predatory in many cases. Then again, licensing and billing laws don't help much, either.
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Amen. That is exactly how I felt! Good luck...it did work out for me, and I hope it does for you!
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As frustrating as it was initially when this happened to me, it was surprisingly easy to get transcripts from both of my UG institutions.
Also, nowadays, many places will do electronic transcripts.
But yes, it seems silly at this stage of the game.
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Thanks, I appreciate it
. Since I posted that I've come to terms with my decision. Sometimes it really is ok to value personal happiness (and spousal happiness) over career. I've also found a couple other postdocs that are good matches, so I'm feeling cautiously optimistic.Its nuts. Even reputable hospitals have post-doc fellowships that are unpaid. I found one at Stanford (EAP program) and at UCSF (not the one that is connected to the internship). I believe California has more unpaid opportunities than paid ones.
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Wouldn't at all be surprised if that were the case. When you have that many individuals wanting to live in the state and needing to accrue supervised practice hours (a good proportion of whom may have come from one of the state's many FSPS), odds are they aren't having any trouble filling unpaid spots. It's very frustrating that our field continues to let this happen to such a degree.
The APA should require FSPS to also post the number of students that were able to land a paid job or post-doc after graduation and median salaries. It wouldn't surprise me if half of their students in CA took on unpaid post-docs or positions that paid below 25K. I also think there should be some regulation of unpaid post-docs out there. There are way too many of them out here and they seem to take advantage of students who did not land APA internships. I read that there is some regulation of unpaid internships for college students so I don't understand why there wouldn't be some regulation for unpaid fellowships out there, particularly since many are full-time positions. This is a testament to the dire nature of our field, particularly in CA. As other people mentioned, other fields do not have unpaid positions.
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Do it. Trim the fat. But only if the idea of not landing a postdoc gig is LESS stressful than requesting the transcript.
I'm in the same boat as you are, FYI. Last week I was looking for any reason to drop a site. I didn't end up dropping any out of sheer fear of being a grocery bagger next year (irrational thought).
Do it. Trim the fat. But only if the idea of not landing a postdoc gig is LESS stressful than requesting the transcript.
I'm in the same boat as you are, FYI. Last week I was looking for any reason to drop a site. I didn't end up dropping any out of sheer fear of being a grocery bagger next year (irrational thought).
Does requesting a transcript require this much leg work? My program has transcript requests available online. Some programs just require one fax with your information. I wonder if you can show them the unofficial ones as well. They aren't asking you to write 3 essays. That's where I draw the line.
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Depending on how you look at it, all of my sites require essays. At least in my opinion, if you're asking someone to write a "cover letter" that's 3 pages long and includes the answers to several specific questions, as well as a research proposal outline, that's an essay, not a cover letter.
But I still want to draw the line at requesting transcripts. Dude, I made it this far, do I really need to go through the extra step of sending verification of my (inflated) grad school GPA? It's grad school. We all did well. I fail to see how this is useful information.
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Sort of unrelated question, but I felt this was the most appropriate thread on which to post it.
I'm applying to internship now, and in the back of my mind, am thinking about post docs (I'm hopefully going the neuro route, so it's necessary to do one). While I have some interviews (including one at my top site), I was not offered interviews at many hospitals with which I felt I was a good match. Many of these sites also offer post docs, and I was hoping to interview there to schmooze, get a feel for the site, and hopefully make a good impression with the staff/TD. Not being offered interviews at many sites has made me paranoid that I'll basically be repeating this horrid process again next year... is that true? Does there seem to be a high correlation between success in internship interviews and post doc interviews/matching?
I've heard the process isn't as bad for post doc, but I'm concerned. I mean... I'll be applying to a lot of the same sites again.
Thanks!
I'm applying to internship now, and in the back of my mind, am thinking about post docs (I'm hopefully going the neuro route, so it's necessary to do one). While I have some interviews (including one at my top site), I was not offered interviews at many hospitals with which I felt I was a good match. Many of these sites also offer post docs, and I was hoping to interview there to schmooze, get a feel for the site, and hopefully make a good impression with the staff/TD. Not being offered interviews at many sites has made me paranoid that I'll basically be repeating this horrid process again next year... is that true? Does there seem to be a high correlation between success in internship interviews and post doc interviews/matching?
I've heard the process isn't as bad for post doc, but I'm concerned. I mean... I'll be applying to a lot of the same sites again.
Thanks!
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I actually have no idea what the correlation might be between how individuals do on internship interviews vs. for postdoc. I would imagine, were I to hazard a guess, that those who do well with the internship application process likely do relatively well for postdoc also, owing to a variety of factors (basically coming down to the fact that what makes someone competitive for internship will likely also help in making them competitive for postdoc).
I actually did better on my ratio of interviews to applications for postdoc than for internship, which may have been one of the reasons the latter process felt less stressful to me. That, and there isn't quite the same push/fear that you absolutely HAVE to match for fellowship. I found the interviews themselves to also be more enjoyable overall, even if they did nearly all get crammed into a four-day period at INS.
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Thanks.
I know there are some differences... e.g., How much do postdocs focus on hours? At that point, everyone has completed a 2000-hour internship, so I'd assume that hours are less important. Also, there are no essays. So I'm hoping my problem was in one of those areas, and that it won't affect me for postdoc.
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Thanks.
I know there are some differences... e.g., How much do postdocs focus on hours? At that point, everyone has completed a 2000-hour internship, so I'd assume that hours are less important. Also, there are no essays. So I'm hoping my problem was in one of those areas, and that it won't affect me for postdoc.
My memory for some aspects of the applications is hazy (and it's only been a year; scary), but I don't recall any sites asking for specific hour counts. If there were any, they were in the significant minority. I also only remember one or two asking for a list of measures I'd administered.
In general, there was more emphasis on the settings in which I'd worked, what type of work I'd actually done there, and where I saw myself working in the future.
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Individual differences. What's right for another vs what's right for you.
Your suggestion of unofficial transcripts/copies is spot on. A lot of sites say that for consideration copies will do and for acceptance officials will be necessary.
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For those who have got postdoc under their belt, what was the wait time between submission deadline and interview notifaction?
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I just got an invite for an interview at the VAMC on Jan 25th or 28th. I wasn't expecting anything until after the new year, but it did have an early due date (Dec 1), so not too suprising to hear already I suppose.
