2022 Grad First job

[Hou$e 0f C@rds]

Hello
I am a new grad about to start my first job.
I formally know the owner for the past five years as I have assisted him for couple of months in the past. He needs an associate who can handle his second office.
He has not given me any contract, and everything is verbal at this point.
I just want to know that if it's a good idea to start your first job without the contract and are there any legal implications that can put my license in Jeopardy if I start working without signing anything?
Should I consult with an attorney first ?

I really appreciate your valuable input.

Thank You 🙂

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[AU_Dental]

Not having a contract is a bit problematic because it means you have no protection. A contract would state how much you are paid, who is responsible for malpractice insurance, how much you are expected to work, and multiple other things. It would be ok starting, but I wouldn't let it go too long before something is in writing. This can even be a simple email, making you way better off.

In terms of it affecting your license, It shouldn't affect that at all. Your license is responsible for the care you provide to the patients you see there, so if something happens with one of them because of your work, that falls on you. Your state's board may have a rule about you needing to provide them an office address which this office's address is what you would tell them.

 

[PerioDont]

this is not a good idea. I would have a written contract in place.

otherwise your friendship may go south really quick.

 

[Roto Picante]

I have a bit of a different view on this. Depending on what your long term plans are, not having a contract can actually give you more flexibility.
For example, if it doesn't work out like you hope, you can leave the job at any time and work where ever you want without considering any sort of non compete. Other than pay, most of the big protections of a contract actually protect the employer. On the other hand, if you think this is your long term job (>3 years) and that you may want to buy in then a contract stipulating those details would be important.

 

[PerioDont]

I have a bit of a different view on this. Depending on what your long term plans are, not having a contract can actually give you more flexibility.
For example, if it doesn't work out like you hope, you can leave the job at any time and work where ever you want without considering any sort of non compete. Other than pay, most of the big protections of a contract actually protect the employer. On the other hand, if you think this is your long term job (>3 years) and that you may want to buy in then a contract stipulating those details would be important.

That is true. He/she can leave whenever they want because nothing is in place.

However, it can also mean the owner could not pay them properly and say one thing and do another. There will be no evidence to prove one way or another if it was all verbal.

 

[charlestweed]

I too am in the camp of no written contract so I have more flexibitlity to find a better paying job once I get enough experience. That’s how I was able to negotiate with the corp manager to increase my salary. That’s how I was able to double my associate income after 2-3 years. I didn’t know I was very valuable to them until I gave them my notice. They didn’t want to lose me so they offered to pay me more to keep me from leaving.

Most corps made me sign a contract that required me to give them a 90-day notice when I decide to quit. I didn’t like this part of the contract but I went ahead and signed it anyway because I needed a job...I needed to work to gain the the experience. I had student loans to pay back.

 

[Chief's Pineapple]

@PerioDont and @charlestweed I saw something on Reddit a while back that advocated for NO contracts. I'll include the link here but I wanted to see what you guys thought about it. These are not my words, but I will quote the posts below:

"I am going to have a contrary opinion to this. I don’t quite understand why everyone here keeps citing seminars and whatnot on why contracts are so important. I haven’t been to any of these seminars but maybe I should start one…. Anyways, It seems like people don’t understand the economics of these contracts. Let grandpa LCdent sit you down and tell you how the world really works. For context, I have 5 offices and we do about 10 million. We are not huge but I have been around the block.

So the magic contract. A contract from a company is not what everyone here seems to think it is. It is not a piece of paper that protects the dentist associate, contracts are designed to protect the company and only the company. Here is why. The contract will say somewhere that you get paid 30% or so for the production/adjusted production you do. So let’s say you are a new dentist and your production is 50000 a month. The big bad company pays you 15000 for three months and then they stiff you your 4th month whereby they pay you 13700 and then the next month 12300 and then 9000. You then finally quit, you go find an attorney and say to them that you want to sue said company. You have a contract that says the owe you 30% but they didn’t pay up. The attorney reviews the contract and agrees. He says yes they will sue the company but he needs a 40000 retainer to do it. You don’t have 40000 and even if you did the attorney says to you that there is no guarantee that you will win and that the lawsuit will take a few years to go finish. The lawsuit will win you maybe 10k, the attorney may be able to get there side to pay for the fees but maybe not. All in all it will probably cost you 40000 to win back 10000. A probable net loss of 30000.

So let’s take another look from the companies perspective. You produce 50000 a month. After a few weeks of work you decide the company is terrible, my god you think, they have red painted walls with green iguanas pictures. It is definitely not going to work. You walk off the job without giving your three month notice. The company sues you for 150,000 in real damages because you broke your contract. They pay their attorney 40,000 and get back 110,000, but they are able to easily show that you should pay their attorney fees and so you really get hit with 150,000 wage garnishment suit. Now you have student debt and this lawsuit to pay for.

So the morale of the story is that the contracts are designed to protect the company from you. The bonuses are designed to keep you working for a certain amount of time so they can plan their growth. Everything is designed with the employers protection in mind. These people telling you that you must have a contract really don’t know what the hell they are talking about. You are way better off not having a contract, then you can leave when you want. I know that to the new dentist have that piece of paper brings comfort. It brings you nothing. Contracts are useful for companies to help them plan their HR needs. Bonuses lock you in. The threat of having to pay back bonuses that you have already been taxed on locks you in. You really only received 22k of that 30k bonus snd you already took it to pay down your student debt. Now you have to make 40k extra to pay back that 30k bonus. It just doesn’t happen.

People hear stories of dentists getting screwed by there corporate companies every single day. How many stories do you hear about the dentist suing the corporations for breaking their contracts. NOT A DAMN ONE."

And a post below that agreeing with those sentiments:

"This post needs more visibility.
I work with no contract. Paid production. Fair owner. I can walk when I want. No non compete. Any procedure I do I get paid for it within 1-2 weeks since I get paid on production every 2 weeks.
Even if he decides to screw me I at most lose about one week of pay which is 4 days. I hold the power over my owner, since I can walk at anytime, and finding a replacement is hard in my area - I hold all the cards and all he holds over my head is maybe one week of pay. People with contracts could give up a whole lot more than maybe a week of pay. (non compete, weeks usually months of notice to leave, payback and re-do clauses, and it goes on)
Convince me otherwise."

What do you all think?

 

[P7898]

@PerioDont and @charlestweed I saw something on Reddit a while back that advocated for NO contracts. I'll include the link here but I wanted to see what you guys thought about it. These are not my words, but I will quote the posts below:

"I am going to have a contrary opinion to this. I don’t quite understand why everyone here keeps citing seminars and whatnot on why contracts are so important. I haven’t been to any of these seminars but maybe I should start one…. Anyways, It seems like people don’t understand the economics of these contracts. Let grandpa LCdent sit you down and tell you how the world really works. For context, I have 5 offices and we do about 10 million. We are not huge but I have been around the block.

So the magic contract. A contract from a company is not what everyone here seems to think it is. It is not a piece of paper that protects the dentist associate, contracts are designed to protect the company and only the company. Here is why. The contract will say somewhere that you get paid 30% or so for the production/adjusted production you do. So let’s say you are a new dentist and your production is 50000 a month. The big bad company pays you 15000 for three months and then they stiff you your 4th month whereby they pay you 13700 and then the next month 12300 and then 9000. You then finally quit, you go find an attorney and say to them that you want to sue said company. You have a contract that says the owe you 30% but they didn’t pay up. The attorney reviews the contract and agrees. He says yes they will sue the company but he needs a 40000 retainer to do it. You don’t have 40000 and even if you did the attorney says to you that there is no guarantee that you will win and that the lawsuit will take a few years to go finish. The lawsuit will win you maybe 10k, the attorney may be able to get there side to pay for the fees but maybe not. All in all it will probably cost you 40000 to win back 10000. A probable net loss of 30000.

So let’s take another look from the companies perspective. You produce 50000 a month. After a few weeks of work you decide the company is terrible, my god you think, they have red painted walls with green iguanas pictures. It is definitely not going to work. You walk off the job without giving your three month notice. The company sues you for 150,000 in real damages because you broke your contract. They pay their attorney 40,000 and get back 110,000, but they are able to easily show that you should pay their attorney fees and so you really get hit with 150,000 wage garnishment suit. Now you have student debt and this lawsuit to pay for.

So the morale of the story is that the contracts are designed to protect the company from you. The bonuses are designed to keep you working for a certain amount of time so they can plan their growth. Everything is designed with the employers protection in mind. These people telling you that you must have a contract really don’t know what the hell they are talking about. You are way better off not having a contract, then you can leave when you want. I know that to the new dentist have that piece of paper brings comfort. It brings you nothing. Contracts are useful for companies to help them plan their HR needs. Bonuses lock you in. The threat of having to pay back bonuses that you have already been taxed on locks you in. You really only received 22k of that 30k bonus snd you already took it to pay down your student debt. Now you have to make 40k extra to pay back that 30k bonus. It just doesn’t happen.

People hear stories of dentists getting screwed by there corporate companies every single day. How many stories do you hear about the dentist suing the corporations for breaking their contracts. NOT A DAMN ONE."

And a post below that agreeing with those sentiments:

"This post needs more visibility.
I work with no contract. Paid production. Fair owner. I can walk when I want. No non compete. Any procedure I do I get paid for it within 1-2 weeks since I get paid on production every 2 weeks.
Even if he decides to screw me I at most lose about one week of pay which is 4 days. I hold the power over my owner, since I can walk at anytime, and finding a replacement is hard in my area - I hold all the cards and all he holds over my head is maybe one week of pay. People with contracts could give up a whole lot more than maybe a week of pay. (non compete, weeks usually months of notice to leave, payback and re-do clauses, and it goes on)
Convince me otherwise."

What do you all think?

Truth. Unfortunately these days contract doesn't mean anything to the employee. They employer can change whatever they want whenever they want.

 

[charlestweed]

Truth. Unfortunately these days contract doesn't mean anything to the employee. They employer can change whatever they want whenever they want.

And that’s their reward for taking the risk to open their own practice.

 

[charlestweed]

Most corp offices required me to give them a 90 day notice (along with other things like non-compete clause, can’t hire their employees when I open my own office etc) but they could fire me anytime. I was ok with this policy because I needed them more than they needed me. I had nothing to show them. To them, I was just a broke clueless inexerienced new grad ortho who had a lot of student loans. And for me, I just wanted a job that provided me a lot of patients so I could gain the experience fast. I didn’t care if they would make me work like a dog. It’s still 100X better than the previous jobs (busboy and newspaper delivery) that I had when I was in college…..and the pay was also many times higher.

It shouldn’t be too hard for you to get out of the 90-day requirement if you really want to get out. Just do the minimal work (as long as you don’t do anything unethical) and the corp will find another doc to replace you as quickly as they can. No employer wants to keep an unmotivated associate dentist, who doesn’t want to be there. When my orthodontist friend gave the corp his 90 day notice, the corp manager found another ortho to replace him within a week because she realized that my friend didn’t want to be there anymore and she didn’t want the production to drop.

 

[LFA20]

Most corp offices required me to give them a 90 day notice (along with other things like non-compete clause, can’t hire their employees when I open my own office etc) but they could fire me anytime. I was ok with this policy because I needed them more than they needed me. I had nothing to show them. To them, I was just a broke clueless inexerienced new grad ortho who had a lot of student loans. And for me, I just wanted a job that provided me a lot of patients so I could gain the experience fast. I didn’t care if they would make me work like a dog. It’s still 100X better than the previous jobs (busboy and newspaper delivery) that I had when I was in college…..and the pay was also many times higher.

It shouldn’t be too hard for you to get out of the 90-day requirement if you really want to get out. Just do the minimal work (as long as you don’t do anything unethical) and the corp will find another doc to replace you as quickly as they can. No employer wants to keep an unmotivated associate dentist, who doesn’t want to be there. When my orthodontist friend gave the corp his 90 day notice, the corp manager found another ortho to replace him within a week because she realized that my friend didn’t want to be there anymore and she didn’t want the production to drop.

I have never met anyone who graduated in my year(2018) or close by that has a mentality “I am willing to work like a dog” lol…

Everyone always tells me they want to work 3-4 days a week at the most and have more free time.

 

[charlestweed]

I have never met anyone who graduated in my year(2018) or close by that has a mentality “I am willing to work like a dog” lol…

And my student loans weren’t nearly as high as these new grads’…..the home prices were only 1/10-1/5 as much as they are today…gas prices were 1/2 as much as they are today. Despite the fact that everything was much cheaper during my time, it still took me 20 years to pay off all my debts. I started working at 29 (the low wage jobs that I had during my college years didn’t count) and I paid off my last debt at 49. I’ve never worked less than 4 days/wk since graduation.

Everyone always tells me they want to work 3-4 days a week at the most and have more free time.

That should be fine if these young docs are ok with renting the apartments and living paycheck to paycheck for rest of their lives. When you owe $500k and you only make $120k/year, you are no better than my office manager, who makes $45k/year. My manager has been living paycheck to paycheck. She’s 56 yo. She has never spent anything big (like a nice trip to Hawaii or a nice designer handbag) in her life. Fortunately, she only pays $400/month for her house, which she inherited from her deceased mother.

There are plenty of dentists who work 3-4 days/week and have done very well. That’s because they are very smart business people and they have excellent clinical skills. Cold Front, Taman, Daurang, Dr. Jeff etc are among these dentists. I am not as smart as them and I am in a very saturated area. Therefore, I have to work 5 days/wk.

 

[P7898]

And my student loans weren’t nearly as high as these new grads’…..the home prices were only 1/5-1/10 as they are today…gas prices were 1/2 as they are today. Despite the fact that everything was much cheaper during my time, it still took me 20 years (of hard work) to pay off all my debts. I started working at 29 (the low wage jobs that I had during my college years didn’t count) and I paid off my last debt at 49. I’ve never worked less than 4 days/wk since graduation.

That should be fine if these young docs are ok with renting the apartments and living paycheck to paycheck for rest of their lives. When you owe $500k and you only make $120k/year, you are no better than my office manager, who makes $45k/year. My manager has been living paycheck to paycheck. She’s 56 yo. She has never spent anything big (like a nice trip to Hawaii or a nice designer handbag) in her life. Fortunately, she only pays $400/month for her house, which she inherited from her deceased mother.

There are plenty of dentists who work 3-4 days/week and have done very well. That’s because they are very smart business people and they have excellent clinical skills. Cold Front, Taman, Daurang, Dr. Jeff etc are among these dentists. I am not as smart as them and I am in a very saturated area. Therefore, I have to work 5 days/wk.

We should encourage new grads to go somewhere less desirable. $120k jobs are big cities or areas of saturation. But yes name of the game is debt to income ratio.

 

[charlestweed]

We should encourage new grads to go somewhere less desirable. $120k jobs are big cities or areas of saturation. But yes name of the game is debt to income ratio.

I don’t think we need to encourage them. When they graduate and face the reality of having to pay back the student loans while trying to support their families, they will realize that making $120k is not enough. They will either have to work harder or move to a more remote area where they get paid more. No one wants to live in poverty....paycheck to paycheck. The reason they say they only want to work 3-4 days/wk now is they are either still in school or haven't had a family to support yet.

 

[LFA20]

We should encourage new grads to go somewhere less desirable. $120k jobs are big cities or areas of saturation. But yes name of the game is debt to income ratio.

Uhm.. I am gonna say the chance of that is slim to none lol... Most people would never be able to give up living in a nice city that offer good social life. Also, most graduating dentists are in their late 20s and early 30s and are ready to look for a partner (or in a serious relationship already). Going rural/military means they won't be able to stay close to their significant others or limit their potential(geographically/ethnically/professionally) in looking for a spouse.

 

[P7898]

Uhm.. I am gonna say the chance of that is slim to none lol... Most people would never be able to give up living in a nice city that offer good social life. Also, most graduating dentists are in their late 20s and early 30s and are ready to look for a partner (or in a serious relationship already). Going rural/military means they won't be able to stay close to their significant others or limit their potential(geographically/ethnically/professionally) in looking for a spouse.

Right. But then I do not want to hear them complaining about their income

 

[charlestweed]

Uhm.. I am gonna say the chance of that is slim to none lol... Most people would never be able to give up living in a nice city that offer good social life. Also, most graduating dentists are in their late 20s and early 30s and are ready to look for a partner (or in a serious relationship already). Going rural/military means they won't be able to stay close to their significant others or limit their potential(geographically/ethnically/professionally) in looking for a spouse.

It’s gonna be tough. Nobody wants to date or to marry a broke dentist who has $500+k student loan debt...who only wants to work 4 or fewer days/wk. Nobody wants to date a person who is not financially stable. If you want the marriage to last, you should inform the person, whom you plan to marry to, the amount of student loan debt that you owe and your detailed plan on how to pay it off fast.

 

[allDAT]

I have never met anyone who graduated in my year(2018) or close by that has a mentality “I am willing to work like a dog” lol…

Everyone always tells me they want to work 3-4 days a week at the most and have more free time.

Working like a dog is silly. It sounds good in theory, and it makes people seem tough when they have a do-whatever it takes attitude…but they often end up divorced and lonely.

The goal should be to work 3-4 clinical days. You may have to work 5-6 to get there, but the goal should be to end up working 3-4.


To the op - it’s nice to have something in writing that outlines how you’ll get paid. You want to avoid long term commitments and large non competes though. So not having a contract isn’t terrible. I’d prefer to work on a handshake than have a bad deal signed that requires a lot of notice to leave.

 

[charlestweed]

Working like a dog is silly. It sounds good in theory, and it makes people seem tough when they have a do-whatever it takes attitude…but they often end up divorced and lonely.

The chance of getting a divorce is also very high when your spouse realizes that you don’t make enough (when you are capable of working 5 days a week but you decline to do so) to pay back the student loans…..don’t make enough to support the kids. When you both struggle financially, you will argue all the time.

The goal should be to work 3-4 clinical days. You may have to work 5-6 to get there, but the goal should be to end up working 3-4.

This is what I have recommended the young grads to do after graduation. Working like a dog 5-6 days a week at the beginning when you are still young, healthy and have no kids (or have kids who are still very little). Once the student loans are paid off (or at least reduced by half), you can reduce to working 3-4 days/week like what you see most of the older 40+ yo dentists are enjoying right now.

 

[2TH MVR]

Contract not needed in urban, saturated city with a billion dentists and practices.
Contract needed in small, rural area to PROTECT owner (private practice).

 

[pubhealthdent]

I have never met anyone who graduated in my year(2018) or close by that has a mentality “I am willing to work like a dog” lol…

2018 grad, still working 5 days a week. Planning to do it as long as my physical/mental health allows

 

[charlestweed]

2018 grad, still working 5 days a week. Planning to do it as long as my physical/mental health allows

Working 5 days per wk is considered average by most Americans. But I guess some dentists here think this is excessive. There are a lot of jobs out there that are more physically demanding than denntistry and people still have to work 5 days/wk to support their families.

I’ve heard that most Japanese people work lot more hours per week. No wonder why the country is so rich despite having limited natural resources and being threatened constantly by earthquakes and tsunamis.

 

[P7898]

Working 5 days per wk is considered average by most Americans. But I guess some dentists here think this is excessive. There are a lot of jobs out there that are more physically demanding than denntistry and people still have to work 5 days/wk to support their families.

I’ve heard that most Japanese people work lot more hours per week. No wonder why the country is so rich despite having limited natural resources and being threatened constantly by earthquakes and tsunamis.

People are soft because they expect the "reduced schedule" immediately because a lot of people go to dentistry like that. Just work hard and enjoy life when you are young. Work, save, invest. Then you can scale back when you have kids.

 

[Jackson-Ave-Dental]

I never had a contract at any of my associateships...

Complaining about working 5 days/week lol....


Well let me tell you a story:
Back in 2017, two weeks into my first job, my boss literally told me I should be kissing his ass. The real world was much different than what I had imagined it to be... I left an inquiry on the Henry Schein site asking how much a dental chair costs. The rep calls me up and talks to me for an hour. At the end of the call, he tells me that he knows a guy at a bank and if it was ok to pass on my information to him. I said sure.

Banker calls me a few days later and we talk... He literally asked me 3 questions:
- How much is your rent? I told him I was still living with my parents.
- Do I have any auto loans? Told him I'm still driving my 2004 honda accord.
- What am I doing with my student loans? Told him its on income based repayment.

He said wow, you're in great financial shape.

I'm like seriously? I've only been working for like 2 months...

Nonetheless, true to his words I got approved for a 500k office loan to build my own practice from scratch. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing nor did I have a mentor but basically the banker will just introduce you to the next guy in the step and so on and so forth...

A lot of things went WRONG in between that and getting the office built out. But ultimately since that day I signed the loan documents I started working 7 days a week. After I had the office built I was working over 80+ hours a week... Legitimately if you think you get to work less because you own you should think again.

Hours were Mon-Fri 8am-8pm; Sat 8am-7pm; Sun 8am-6pm

That continued up to COVID. It was only in the last year or so that I've cut down a lot and things have stabilized a lot more.

5 days a week... No, you do what needs to be done.