2023 Match Data

[rowsdower88]

So no AA>>>fewer black docs? Do black applicants have trouble getting accepted into med school? An earlier poster posted a graph suggesting that black applicants with lower stats have a higher admission rate than other races. Maybe more black applicants with better stats is the answer? Having done admission interviews for 17 years, we realized finding qualified black applicants within our admission metrics was not easy. Many good people champion DEI, citing the benefits to society. What I haven't seen is data in the lower Stat group suggesting they are successful in medical school and pass boards. Are their remediation rates and board pass rates similiar to their med school peers? There are always unintended consequences to every policy action. I think we can all agree that lower Stat applicants are at higher risk of med school and board failures than higher Stat students. The success of all our students, including med students should be our priority and they should be put into a position to succeed. My former school recruits at inner city high schools and has a summer program to introduce high schoolers to medicine. I believe AA would be better served by bringing lower Stat students in for a post bac year before med school. This should improve their success and self esteem. I would be fine if tax dollars covered this post back year.

It's an arrow man. -> No AA (leads to) fewer black docs. Yes, black students have trouble getting into medical school, that's the point of affirmative action.

Attrition rates by race seem fairly similar between white and black matriculants, 2.3% for white students and 5.7% for black students. Which you know... you could look up as someone who's been doing this for 17 years. :b

Not sure what the causes are for that higher attrition rate, but before you jump the gun and say it's due to lower board scores, just recognize it's probably multifactorial. Poorer students also tend to have higher attrition rates as well.

I don't know what the policy repercussions of your proposed post-bac year are. Could be worth a try I guess if we wanted to shrink attrition rates further. But that's another year of someone's life we're talking about too. Assuming the vast majority of low scoring MCAT students who are accepted eventually graduate, it would probably be a big waste of money to make ALL of those students waste an extra year on post-bac stuff. Don't know though, haven't researched it.

Racial Differences in Attrition Rates at Medical Schools in the United States | The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education

The study found that students who were from an underrepresented racial or ethnic group, and also from a low-income family who lived in an underresourced neighborhood had a dropout rate that was nearly four times the rate of White students who were not from a low-income family and did not live in...

www.jbhe.com

Edit: Didn't address your boards comment. You can look that up.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

It's an arrow man. -> No AA (leads to) fewer black docs. Yes, black students have trouble getting into medical school, that's the point of affirmative action.

Attrition rates by race seem fairly similar between white and black matriculants, 2.3% for white students and 5.7% for black students. Which you know... you could look up as someone who's been doing this for 17 years. :b

Not sure what the causes are for that higher attrition rate, but before you jump the gun and say it's due to lower board scores, just recognize it's probably multifactorial. Poorer students also tend to have higher attrition rates as well.

I don't know what the policy repercussions of your proposed post-bac year are. Could be worth a try I guess if we wanted to shrink attrition rates further. But that's another year of someone's life we're talking about too. Assuming the vast majority of low scoring MCAT students who are accepted eventually graduate, it would probably be a big waste of money to make ALL of those students waste an extra year on post-bac stuff. Don't know though, haven't researched it.

Racial Differences in Attrition Rates at Medical Schools in the United States | The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education

The study found that students who were from an underrepresented racial or ethnic group, and also from a low-income family who lived in an underresourced neighborhood had a dropout rate that was nearly four times the rate of White students who were not from a low-income family and did not live in...

www.jbhe.com

The attrition rates are similiar you could say. You could also say they are double. The graph a poster posted earlier suggests lower Stat black students have higher admission rates than other races. Not sure I see the increased difficulty black students have for getting into medical school. If it was harder, you would see higher metrics required, like for ORM applicants. I think focusing on preparing students better before med school would pay a bigger dividend for student success.

 

[rowsdower88]

The attrition rates are similiar you could say. You could also say they are double. The graph a poster posted earlier suggests lower Stat black students have higher admission rates than other races. Not sure I see the increased difficulty black students have for getting into medical school. If it was harder, you would see higher metrics required, like for ORM applicants. I think focusing on preparing students better before med school would pay a bigger dividend for student success.

Ok, my bad. To resolve this dispute I'll go to the study: 423 out of 18,213 white students left med school early versus 120 out of 2104 black students in that study. That is as free of positive or negative framing as I can make it for you.

The graph that you're talking about was probably with affirmative action policies in place, right? So if you take those policies away, you get fewer black students. Just take a minute to think about this, because it sounds like you're just making a very fundamental mistake in understanding right now.

Some forms of affirmative action are currently in place. No explicit quotas as far as I can tell, but aspects of admission are weighted in some minority students favor. If we take those away, fewer black students will be accepted.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Ok, my bad. To resolve this dispute I'll go to the study: 423 out of 18,213 white students left med school early versus 120 out of 2104 black students in that study. That is as free of positive or negative framing as I can make it for you.

The graph that you're talking about was probably with affirmative action policies in place, right? So if you take those policies away, you get fewer black students. Just take a minute to think about this, because it sounds like you're just making a very fundamental mistake in understanding right now.

Some forms of affirmative action are currently in place. No explicit quotas as far as I can tell, but aspects of admission are weighted in some minority students favor. If we take those away, fewer black students will be accepted.

Here is the chart I was referring to earlier.

1. So we are in agreement that the the attrition rates for Black medical students is over twice that for white students according to the data you posted. The raw numbers still add up to 2.3% and 5.7% respectively.

2. This chart was from 2016, so I agree it probably represents affirmative action in place. The number of black medical students compared to white students represents 11.5% of that population in the study you posted. Getting close to the 13.6% in our general population.

I am less likely to believe that removing AA at this point will lower admissions for blacks. Many, probably most schools have a mission to admit and train URM's. The data within the chart suggests it is easier for blacks to be admitted to medical school. I'm not sure what you mean when you said "Blacks have trouble getting in to medical school... The data in the graph suggests otherwise. I think getting black students interested in STEM early in school will better prepare them for success in medical school. The attrition rate for blacks still concerns me. As a former educator, I wanted all of my students to be successful. AA still has unintended consequences for black students that should be addressed.

 

[rowsdower88]

View attachment 368671




Here is the chart I was referring to earlier.

1. So we are in agreement that the the attrition rates for Black medical students is over twice that for white students according to the data you posted. The raw numbers still add up to 2.3% and 5.7% respectively.

2. This chart was from 2016, so I agree it probably represents affirmative action in place. The number of black medical students compared to white students represents 11.5% of that population in the study you posted. Getting close to the 13.6% in our general population.

I am less likely to believe that removing AA at this point will lower admissions for blacks. Many, probably most schools have a mission to admit and train URM's. The data within the chart suggests it is easier for blacks to be admitted to medical school. I'm not sure what you mean when you said "Blacks have trouble getting in to medical school... The data in the graph suggests otherwise. I think getting black students interested in STEM early in school will better prepare them for success in medical school. The attrition rate for blacks still concerns me. As a former educator, I wanted all of my students to be successful. AA still has unintended consequences for black students that should be addressed.

Dude. Just read the whole thread or something.

That chart IS the affirmative action that Blade et al. are complaining about. They believe that admissions should only be dictated by test scores, gpa, essays, and maybe some sort of poverty metric for the disadvantaged (they know that poverty is disadvantaging, but they don't think being born black in the US is a disadvantage). They believe that (with few exceptions) regardless of race, a person with a lower test score should never get into med school above someone with higher test scores.

You're asking a more novel question though. Assuming even this level of affirmative action gets struck down as is likely, how many fewer black students will be admitted? Well if you read the 2002 IOM report Unequal Treatment, they estimate that ~40% of practicing black physicians owed their admission due to affirmative action policies. More recent studies suggest more modest percentages in the ~15-30% range from what I can see. This is probably very region dependent too. I also think a lot of the more prestigious institutions tend to use more affirmative action in order to promote diversity (which for the past 60 years, was a compelling interest that a college could engage in). Blade et al. don't want schools to have DEI initiatives and would view it as BAD to have a mission to promote URMs in any way that preferences one race above another.

Edit: to be fair, they might think it's appropriate to advertise in an inner city school or something, or have some level of discretionary spending towards promoting URM admission... but absolutely no explicit favoring on the basis of race.

I'll try to make this as clear as possible: when I say "black students have trouble getting into medical school" I'm looking at that graph you linked and saying some degree of affirmative action is helping those students, because without it, they wouldn't be admitted on the merit criteria others here stand by. The data in the graph SHOWS that people in admissions are putting their thumbs on the scale to get more black students admitted. The disagreement on this thread has been whether or not that thumb has been a good thing or a bad thing, I happen to think it's generally good. No AA -> fewer black docs. (If it's not clear, there is nothing wrong with black students. The problem is the society they're raised in that fails them.)

I hope that clears up the confusion. Just PM me in the future.

 

[RedandBlack7]

You need a new job. I’m making well over 400 for 4 hours no nights/weekends. If I did 50 would be close to 550

What market are you in? I am in a highly desirable market which unfortunately hasn’t caught up to the rest of the country

 

[chocomorsel]

No issue for most. You can still become a good doc, even coming from HCA.

I personally have not heard good things about the training HCA gives its residents. Have any of y'all? Some scary stuff even on these here boards.

 

[chocomorsel]

Anesthesia is harder for some anesthesiologists than it is for others 🤷‍♂️View attachment 368096This

This painting is weird AF. What's it supposed to be?

 

[chocomorsel]

It’s fairly obvious. You don’t understand.

These guys know the Supreme Court will overturn affirmative action in their June 2023 decision (it will likely be “leaked” in may 2023 like overturning abortion. It’s the biggest case in education to be decided on the docket for this year court session

The woke culture has already prepared for this with their dei initiative. And also tried to make it bulletproof by making standardized tests that provide objective data who a high scoring candidate is. By making usmle pass/fail

Next up they will make sat/act scores pass/fail. It’s a backend way to discriminate against high achievers who score high on tests. Like Asian males and many white males

The goal is to remove the more objective data (standardized testing) to level out the playing field.

How about an NFL combine where teams measure athletes speeds, hand size etc.
objective data is 40 yard speed. Imagine if a team drafting a wide receiver. The only data they received is the wide receiver was able to complete the 40 yard dash but no time speed was recorded. Just a pass/fail.

That’s how dei works.

I swear are you an old white complaining man on this board? Shut the hell up. Y'all have had a leg up with mediocrity, knowing the right connections and being given benefits of the doubt since the beginning of this here United states. Your days are numbered and it's about time minorities and women who are just as if not more qualified had more doors open to them that have been in the past closed due to misogyny, racism and implicit bias. Don't you have a sister? What's her take on this? Is she indoctrinated in thinking in such closed mindedness?
The Mediocre White Man's days are dying. Good ****ing Riddance Chad.

 

[chocomorsel]

How about a really diverse class which includes White Males? Instead, Stanford clearly went out of their way to exclude White Males unless you think there were NO QUALIFIED White Male applicants to a top 10 General Surgery program. IMHO, Stanford was making a loud political statement with their Match and I don't think that's true "equity" for everyone.

How about just shut up!! Mediocre White Man's days are over. Thank God. Some of us are tired of the misogyny, racism and implicit bias that has kept qualified and overqualified people out!!!

 

[chocomorsel]

Lol what in the world

Looks like senility may be setting early in this one.

 

[chocomorsel]

I never said the surgeon took 90 minutes. Usually 30 minutes and the anesthesiologist in charge would undersedate or oversedate them. Oversedate them to the point of having to reverse or mask bag them.

Jesus Lord. How though. How much are they giving though? To have to mask ventilate for a whole hour? Anyway, some people are just incompetent. Some docs become incompetent by taking on ACT jobs where they never help the nurses and lose their skills. Or some were just always bad.

 

[chocomorsel]

This is the perfect example to counter every argument in this thread. As you can see, anyone who is in favor of DEI has completely ignored it because there really is no argument to this data.

I am one of those black people that you speak of. So go ahead. Got in with a 21 MCAT. Fire away. Let me know how I struggeled through all my of medical school. Yes, I had issues in residency stemming from me not realizing how black I was and expecting equal treatment like my white colleagues. But please fill me in on how I struggled with my tests and my boards, two sets BTW and how I barely passed and am an incompetent physician based on my 21 MCAT score.
I will be waiting.

 

[chocomorsel]

The Corruption of Medicine

The post–George Floyd racial reckoning has hit the field of medicine like an earthquake. Medical education, medical research, and standards of competence have been upended by two related hypotheses: that systemic racism is responsible both for racial disparities in the demographics of the...

www.city-journal.org

The guardians of science have turned on science itself.

I really think are a racist who doesn't have a clue that you are. Or you just don't even care.
Let me guess. I you have a friend in your golf plying circle called Tyrone so you can't be racist.

 

[chocomorsel]

Imagine being a medical student that finds this thread, thinking they could get insights into the 2023 match. After some brief discussion over this it quickly devolves into a discussion about the excessive diversity in matching classes and thinly veiled racism/misogyny as concern over the future of all fields of medicine because of declining candidate quality being promoted for 'woke' causes.

Lots of dog whistles being blown in this thread and it reads really poorly.

Right on man. I don't think it's thinly veiled at all. It is very overt and obvious. These people need to pull their arthritic fingers off these keyboards, get their Tylenol and wash it down with some Gin and contemplate their racist sexist lives.

 

[Dr. Rude]

Right on man. I don't think it's thinly veiled at all. It is very overt and obvious. These people need to pull their arthritic fingers off these keyboards, get their Tylenol and wash it down with some Gin and contemplate their racist sexist lives.

It’s been a good run. Had to end sometime.

 

[agammaglobulin]

I swear are you an old white complaining man on this board? Shut the hell up. Y'all have had a leg up with mediocrity, knowing the right connections and being given benefits of the doubt since the beginning of this here United states. Your days are numbered and it's about time minorities and women who are just as if not more qualified had more doors open to them that have been in the past closed due to misogyny, racism and implicit bias. Don't you have a sister? What's her take on this? Is she indoctrinated in thinking in such closed mindedness?
The Mediocre White Man's days are dying. Good ****ing Riddance Chad.

Wow. So I'll bite.

The evidence myself and others have presented is that URM (have not seen any data on women vs men) are getting into college/med school as LESS qualified applicants. Again, the URM are LESS qualified, not more or equally qualified, for the spots they are given in med school and Ivy League Colleges. That is an indisputable fact. We (almost all) agree on this. The discussion is whether or not that racism/discrimination to give URM an advantage is justified given historical discrimination/racism.

So you coming in here and saying that minorities are "just as if not more qualified" is simply not true when it comes academic admissions selection process. The people being discriminated against in academic admissions are asians and, less so, whites.

if 'white men' were being given an advantage and 'leg up' with all their "connections" and "benefit of the doubt", wouldn't white's have the lowest qualifications for admissions? This is simply not the case.

 

[Simba1711]

Jesus Lord. How though. How much are they giving though? To have to mask ventilate for a whole hour? Anyway, some people are just incompetent. Some docs become incompetent by taking on ACT jobs where they never help the nurses and lose their skills. Or some were just always bad.

I’m not sure. She came into my room a few times looking for flumazenil to give to patients. We routinely got called to assist her in her room because patient would be blue after she induced the patient. She had trouble intubating or bag masking healthy patients. What blew my mind was when she tried to intubate with 2 hands on the laryngoscope blade. I’m not sure how she was planning on passing the tube. She was older so she wasn’t open to constructive criticism. She would make the same mistake multiple times and was completely oblivious to how dangerous she was.

 

[chocomorsel]

Wow. So I'll bite.

The evidence myself and others have presented is that URM (have not seen any data on women vs men) are getting into college/med school as LESS qualified applicants. Again, the URM are LESS qualified, not more or equally qualified, for the spots they are given in med school and Ivy League Colleges. That is an indisputable fact. We (almost all) agree on this. The discussion is whether or not that racism/discrimination to give URM an advantage is justified given historical discrimination/racism.

So you coming in here and saying that minorities are "just as if not more qualified" is simply not true when it comes academic admissions selection process. The people being discriminated against in academic admissions are asians and, less so, whites.

if 'white men' were being given an advantage and 'leg up' with all their "connections" and "benefit of the doubt", wouldn't white's have the lowest qualifications for admissions? This is simply not the case.

How about the socioeconomic status of these people?

I will bite. Do you know the amount of black and brown people who come from single family households? Who come from poverty? Who come from low income households? Who have to take on jobs as soon as legally able to help around the house? Who have parents working two and three jobs? Who don't have access to unlimited amounts of time with extra tutoring and extra time with parental support to help them with school work? Who don't have access to summer enrichment programs? Private school? Who barely have enough to eat?
When you are in survival mode do you realize that brain is in overdrive and filled up with things to do to literally survive and not enough time for studies? Sure, many of us do not do as well in standardized tests, but lets see the demographics of the white people in school and see what kinds of childhood they had. What kinds of advantages they had. What kinds of programs they were placed in? What kind of schools they went to? A much, much larger percentage of us URMs come from those backgrounds including me.

There is more to being a doctor than just good grades. That is why even with our lower than white/asian stats we actually do well in medicual school and don't fall out like flies. I for one am one of those people who's experienced poverty and working to help my parents out and had to join the military. I didn't spend load s of time learning how to take standardized tests and I sucked at the MCAT, but tell me again how this made me underperform in medical school? Lots of us minorities share these characteristics.

So again, if we are so underqualified why are we not dropping out like flies once we are accepted to medical school where we can actually focus on just our education and not have to worry about working and surviving?

Plenty of our patients have similarities to us and are poor and struggling and minorities. We identify with that **** and empathize with that. And therefore studies have shown that our patients get better outcomes due to what we look like and what we have overcome.

Get out of here with that narrowmindedness that does not take into account all the unfair advantages of most White Medical students.

 

[chocomorsel]

I’m not sure. She came into my room a few times looking for flumazenil to give to patients. We routinely got called to assist her in her room because patient would be blue after she induced the patient. She had trouble intubating or bag masking healthy patients. What blew my mind was when she tried to intubate with 2 hands on the laryngoscope blade. I’m not sure how she was planning on passing the tube. She was older so she wasn’t open to constructive criticism. She would make the same mistake multiple times and was completely oblivious to how dangerous she was.

Ahh, classic one who has refused to sit the stool or to do any procedures for years in an ACT model and has forgotten the basics. This is so disturbing. How long did she last? This is the locums one I believe? Who gives us a bad name?

 

[agammaglobulin]

How about the socioeconomic status of these people?

I will bite. Do you know the amount of black and brown people who come from single family households? Who come from poverty? Who come from low income households? Who have to take on jobs as soon as legally able to help around the house? Who have parents working two and three jobs? Who don't have access to unlimited amounts of time with extra tutoring and extra time with parental support to help them with school work? Who don't have access to summer enrichment programs? Private school? Who barely have enough to eat?
When you are in survival mode do you realize that brain is in overdrive and filled up with things to do to literally survive and not enough time for studies? Sure, many of us do not do as well in standardized tests, but lets see the demographics of the white people in school and see what kinds of childhood they had. What kinds of advantages they had. What kinds of programs they were placed in? What kind of schools they went to? A much, much larger percentage of us URMs come from those backgrounds including me.

There is more to being a doctor than just good grades. That is why even with our lower than white/asian stats we actually do well in medicual school and don't fall out like flies. I for one am one of those people who's experienced poverty and working to help my parents out and had to join the military. I didn't spend load s of time learning how to take standardized tests and I sucked at the MCAT, but tell me again how this made me underperform in medical school? Lots of us minorities share these characteristics.

So again, if we are so underqualified why are we not dropping out like flies once we are accepted to medical school where we can actually focus on just our education and not have to worry about working and surviving?

Plenty of our patients have similarities to us and are poor and struggling and minorities. We identify with that **** and empathize with that. And therefore studies have shown that our patients get better outcomes due to what we look like and what we have overcome.

Get out of here with that narrowmindedness that does not take into account all the unfair advantages of most White Medical students.

I'm talking about qualifications for college/med school. Measurable qualifications like MCAT, GPA, SAT scores. Does coming from a poor family make you more qualified or a better doctor? Maybe we should make med school admission simply based on socioeconomic background to attract the best doctors. The poorest get in first. Is that what you're suggesting?

Edit: Show me the studies that people with lower MCAT/GPA/SAT scores and poor upbringings do better upon graduation.

 

[agammaglobulin]

I'd also like to see evidence of URM being admitted ahead of asians/whites are coming from a poor background.

 

[aneftp]

My 2nd job out of residency was in academics for about $110k. But at the time, the average house in La Jolla cost $400-500k. So maybe that wasn’t so bad considering the cost of living.

Housing tanked 1989-1991 in San Diego and wash dc during end of the Cold War.

It took almost 10 years for home prices to recover

I know that time frame. Not 40% tank like the housing bubble.

But a 15% decline. Which is still significant

I swear are you an old white complaining man on this board? Shut the hell up. Y'all have had a leg up with mediocrity, knowing the right connections and being given benefits of the doubt since the beginning of this here United states. Your days are numbered and it's about time minorities and women who are just as if not more qualified had more doors open to them that have been in the past closed due to misogyny, racism and implicit bias. Don't you have a sister? What's her take on this? Is she indoctrinated in thinking in such closed mindedness?
The Mediocre White Man's days are dying. Good ****ing Riddance Chad.

it doesn’t matter what “race” you are. It’s the principal of things.

Yes my sister thinks the same way as me.
My African American friends are Republicans and think the same way. Same with my Hispanic friends.

People just assume conservatives are one race/sex. They aren’t. Conservatives are women, Africans Americans , Jewish , Hispanics , Asians. , trans as well. I know them all.

How about the socioeconomic status of these people?

I will bite. Do you know the amount of black and brown people who come from single family households? Who come from poverty? Who come from low income households? Who have to take on jobs as soon as legally able to help around the house? Who have parents working two and three jobs? Who don't have access to unlimited amounts of time with extra tutoring and extra time with parental support to help them with school work? Who don't have access to summer enrichment programs? Private school? Who barely have enough to eat?
When you are in survival mode do you realize that brain is in overdrive and filled up with things to do to literally survive and not enough time for studies? Sure, many of us do not do as well in standardized tests, but lets see the demographics of the white people in school and see what kinds of childhood they had. What kinds of advantages they had. What kinds of programs they were placed in? What kind of schools they went to? A much, much larger percentage of us URMs come from those backgrounds including me.

There is more to being a doctor than just good grades. That is why even with our lower than white/asian stats we actually do well in medicual school and don't fall out like flies. I for one am one of those people who's experienced poverty and working to help my parents out and had to join the military. I didn't spend load s of time learning how to take standardized tests and I sucked at the MCAT, but tell me again how this made me underperform in medical school? Lots of us minorities share these characteristics.

So again, if we are so underqualified why are we not dropping out like flies once we are accepted to medical school where we can actually focus on just our education and not have to worry about working and surviving?

Plenty of our patients have similarities to us and are poor and struggling and minorities. We identify with that **** and empathize with that. And therefore studies have shown that our patients get better outcomes due to what we look like and what we have overcome.

Get out of here with that narrowmindedness that does not take into account all the unfair advantages of most White Medical students.

so the social economically (poor) challenged Asian male and white male are at the more disadvantage.
They got to compete with their wealthier pool.

There are more social economical poor white males than social economical poor under represented minorities by pure raw numbers. How do we help them?

I’m fine grouping students who grew up in poverty and giving them a leg up.

The real issue is I have is the affluent under represented enter minority. They grew up privileged and still get a leg up on admissions. That is unfair. And you cannot deny that.

 

[chocomorsel]

I'm talking about qualifications for college/med school. Measurable qualifications like MCAT, GPA, SAT scores. Does coming from a poor family make you more qualified or a better doctor? Maybe we should make med school admission simply based on socioeconomic background to attract the best doctors. The poorest get in first. Is that what you're suggesting?

Edit: Show me the studies that people with lower MCAT/GPA/SAT scores and poor upbringings do better upon graduation.

I am not going to argue with someone who can’t think outside of themselves and connect the dots. I have explained myself rather well. Choose to stay ignorant. Good day.
Y’all showing your true colors. All bold behind a computer. Go ahead.
And show me the studies showing these people make bad or poor physicians. I will be waiting.

 

[chocomorsel]

Housing tanked 1989-1991 in San Diego and wash dc during end of the Cold War.

It took almost 10 years for home prices to recover

I know that time frame. Not 40% tank like the housing bubble.

But a 15% decline. Which is still significant

it doesn’t matter what “race” you are. It’s the principal of things.

Yes my sister thinks the same way as me.
My African American friends are Republicans and think the same way. Same with my Hispanic friends.

People just assume conservatives are one race/sex. They aren’t. Conservatives are women, Africans Americans , Jewish , Hispanics , Asians. , trans as well. I know them all.

so the social economically (poor) challenged Asian male and white male are at the more disadvantage.
They got to compete with their wealthier pool.

There are more social economical poor white males than social economical poor under represented minorities by pure raw numbers. How do we help them?

I’m fine grouping students who grew up in poverty and giving them a leg up.

The real issue is I have is the affluent under represented enter minority. They grew up privileged and still get a leg up on admissions. That is unfair. And you cannot deny that.

Ahh, the classic I have black friends so I cannot be racist.
Your words speak for themselves. You can keep your pick me black friends and we all know that white women continue to vote against their own best interests so not surprised about your sister there.
You rich white people can pull your bootstraps up and help your poor white males. To be poor and a white man in America takes a lot of effort. The world is your oyster. You got an advantage thar the rear of in non whites will never have.

 

[Guillemot]

This painting is weird AF. What's it supposed to be?

Boomer or otherwise ret@rded anesthesiologists.

 

[rowsdower88]

The discussion is whether or not that racism/discrimination to give URM an advantage is justified given historical discrimination/racism.

That is one argument. The other argument I've tried to present is that affirmative action reduces racial healthcare disparities based on patient-physician racial concordance studies and URM practice preferences towards underserved areas. That argument is independent of historic discrimination arguments.

See Recommendation 5.3 for summary:

Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care - PubMed

Racial and ethnic disparities in health care are known to reflect access to care and other issues that arise from differing socioeconomic conditions. There is, however, increasing evidence that even after such differences are accounted for, race and ethnicity remain significant predictors of the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[aneftp]

Ahh, the classic I have black friends so I cannot be racist.
Your words speak for themselves. You can keep your pick me black friends and we all know that white women continue to vote against their own best interests so not surprised about your sister there.
You rich white people can pull your bootstraps up and help your poor white males. To be poor and a white man in America takes a lot of effort. The world is your oyster. You got an advantage thar the rear of in non whites will never have.

The black guys I know are republicans. You just don’t get it. They love guns. They love trump. Trump actually got more percentage of black voters than McCain and Romney. Think about that.

That’s the problem with democrats. Shouldn’t make assumptions under represented minorities support affirmative action. Also that Asian study about most of them supporting AA is so flawed. Didn’t include demographics (age/education) . Just random phone calls. Just about every Asian docs I know is anti affirmative actiojn

Or do I just hang out with the wrong crowd? And I have a very diverse crowd of people I hang out with.

 

[vector2]

. The discussion is whether or not that racism/discrimination to give URM an advantage is justified given historical discrimination/racism.

So, the question to ask yourself is have we really reached conditions where equality of opportunity for URMs is so far ahead in 2023 (as say compared to 1970) that affirmative action can totally be done away with? I don't think so.

Just look at how badly [de facto] segregated black schools and neighborhoods are due to 50 years of white flight, which has led black children on average to have larger class sizes, less challenging curricula, and less qualified teachers.

Look at the history of redlining and understand that it probably caused the average black family in a redlined neighborhood to have about a $200,000 lower net worth, and then realize that it may still be occurring by another name nowadays.

Understand that black Americans with college degrees have less in savings and other assets than white Americans who dropped out of high school. According to a recent calculation of 2011 figures by a group of academics, the median household headed by a black college graduate had about two thirds of the net worth of the median white household headed by someone who did not finish high school.

Understand that even as of 2021, Lakisha and Jamal get called back less than Emily or Greg by employers even when their resumes are identical otherwise


We're not there yet.

 

[chocomorsel]

The black guys I know are republicans. You just don’t get it. They love guns. They love trump. Trump actually got more percentage of black voters than McCain and Romney. Think about that.

That’s the problem with democrats. Shouldn’t make assumptions under represented minorities support affirmative action. Also that Asian study about most of them supporting AA is so flawed. Didn’t include demographics (age/education) . Just random phone calls. Just about every Asian docs I know is anti affirmative actiojn

Or do I just hang out with the wrong crowd? And I have a very diverse crowd of people I hang out with.

Literally you are the one here who started with "my black friends, da da da" Did I ask you about your Republican, gun toting, orange- man-crushing on, self- hating- black friends? It's not an assumption. Most of us are democrats and most of us are AA supporters. I don't make assumptions about everyone. I asked about your sister.
Stay on topic.
Again. all y'all closet racists are always bringing in your "black friends".
Hahaha

 

[agammaglobulin]

I am not going to argue with someone who can’t think outside of themselves and connect the dots. I have explained myself rather well. Choose to stay ignorant. Good day.
Y’all showing your true colors. All bold behind a computer. Go ahead.
And show me the studies showing these people make bad or poor physicians. I will be waiting.

Google "predictors of college success" and you'll find GPA, not surprisingly, as a huge predictor of college success. Interestingly, socioeconomic status is also an indicator of college success with high SES (not low) correlating with graduation from college. I believe this is the opposite of what you were suggesting (low income, lower score applicants being more qualified). There is clearly no evidence to support admitting people with lower scores ahead of people with higher scores, regardless of race.

Can we stop grouping people based on race, SES, gender, etc and just admit students/applicants that are doing well in school?

 

[agammaglobulin]

Get out of here with that narrowmindedness that does not take into account all the unfair advantages of most White Medical students.

You sure that's whites who have the unfair advantage?

 

[agammaglobulin]

More white unfair advantage? I do not see what you are seeing.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Meet Tamia Potter, VUMC’s first Black female neurosurgery resident - The Vanderbilt Hustler

Match Day 2023 marked an important milestone for nearly 35,000 aspiring physicians across the country. But one made history here at Vanderbilt. If you spent even half an hour on Instagram on March 17, chances are you saw the many viral reels of 26-year-old Tamia Potter matching with VUMC, making...

vanderbilthustler.com

“Potter matching with VUMC, making her VUMC’s first Black female neurosurgery resident since the hospital’s opening in 1874.”

“When I got to Vanderbilt and met those residents and the faculty and attendings, I fell in love,” Potter said. “I didn’t feel out of place. That’s what stood out to me about Vanderbilt. When you’re a Black woman in medicine, you feel it. I did not feel like I was treated any differently for the color of my skin or for being a woman. Being a woman in surgery is very hard as well, but I felt no difference. I had not had a feeling like that anywhere else, and the tone was set like that from day one. It didn’t change.”

“There are a lot of stereotypes about Black people in medicine and affirmative action,” Potter said. “People believe they’re sacrificing quality for quantity of diversity. That’s not the case. You can be a very well-qualified person and be a person of color at the same time. The problem is, because that stereotype exists, when you’re a Black person in spaces like these, you feel the pressure and need to be the best because you want to prove to people that it is not an affirmative action job. I am qualified to be here, and you’re not sacrificing anything by me being here.”

Vanderbilt too woke!! MAGA!

 

[aneftp]

Meet Tamia Potter, VUMC’s first Black female neurosurgery resident - The Vanderbilt Hustler

Match Day 2023 marked an important milestone for nearly 35,000 aspiring physicians across the country. But one made history here at Vanderbilt. If you spent even half an hour on Instagram on March 17, chances are you saw the many viral reels of 26-year-old Tamia Potter matching with VUMC, making...

vanderbilthustler.com

“Potter matching with VUMC, making her VUMC’s first Black female neurosurgery resident since the hospital’s opening in 1874.”

“When I got to Vanderbilt and met those residents and the faculty and attendings, I fell in love,” Potter said. “I didn’t feel out of place. That’s what stood out to me about Vanderbilt. When you’re a Black woman in medicine, you feel it. I did not feel like I was treated any differently for the color of my skin or for being a woman. Being a woman in surgery is very hard as well, but I felt no difference. I had not had a feeling like that anywhere else, and the tone was set like that from day one. It didn’t change.”

“There are a lot of stereotypes about Black people in medicine and affirmative action,” Potter said. “People believe they’re sacrificing quality for quantity of diversity. That’s not the case. You can be a very well-qualified person and be a person of color at the same time. The problem is, because that stereotype exists, when you’re a Black person in spaces like these, you feel the pressure and need to be the best because you want to prove to people that it is not an affirmative action job. I am qualified to be here, and you’re not sacrificing anything by me being here.”

Vanderbilt too woke!! MAGA!

So she didn’t have the greatest Mcat scores. She admitted it.

Why not give a poor white or Asian male with not so great scores the same opportunity?

Level the socioeconomic playing field.

Look. I know good mcat scores does not predict who becomes a good doctor. People can change and apply themselves more once they get into medical school.

I’d like to hear more about her socioeconomic background growing up. (Her dad was doctor and mom a nurse). Many of them (not all) come from middle class or upper middle class families.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Why not give a poor white or Asian male with not so great scores the same opportunity?

You don’t think 150 years was enough?

I always find it amusing how people will clutch their pearls seeing minorities or women come up claiming they are the ones taking their jobs/positions, etc. Yet, these are the same people who are ok with big businesses and the ultra-elite taking advantage of them or committing white collar crimes. What has Trump and the GOP done to help the lower class? How does being “anti-woke” help the lower/middle class?

If you peel back the GOP’s policy agenda, outside of hate/fear and anger, how are they helping to solve problems?

 

[aneftp]

You don’t think 150 years was enough?

I always find it amusing how people will clutch their pearls seeing minorities or women come up claiming they are the ones taking their jobs/positions, etc. Yet, these are the same people who are ok with big businesses and the ultra-elite taking advantage of them or committing white collar crimes. What has Trump and the GOP done to help the lower class? How does being “anti-woke” help the lower/middle class?

If you peel back the GOP’s policy agenda, outside of hate/fear and anger, how are they helping to solve problems?

You do realize the trump tax cuts as a percentage of people income helps the lower and middle class more. A $4000 tax credit for a family of 4 making 60k a year is huge. Double the standard deduction as well so those with lower value homes and property taxes get bigger deductions

People always want to play the raw numbers game vs percentage game when it comes to politics.

Of course giving the super rich a 2% reduction in terms of raw numbers raw tax savings is always going to be higher than giving the poorer people making less than 60k a 10% savings.

But a 10% savings is still huge.

What hurts the middle and lower class is the fica taxes. But we all know social security is a Ponzi scheme. But that hurts the lower income class the most since it takes out 6.25% of their income and they may never live to benefit from it.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

You do realize the trump tax cuts as a percentage of people income helps the lower and middle class more. A $4000 tax credit for a family of 4 making 60k a year is huge. Double the standard deduction as well so those with lower value homes and property taxes get bigger deductions

People always want to play the raw numbers game vs percentage game when it comes to politics.

Of course giving the super rich a 2% reduction in terms of raw numbers raw tax savings is always going to be higher than giving the poorer people making less than 60k a 10% savings.

But a 10% savings is still huge.

What hurts the middle and lower class is the fica taxes. But we all know social security is a Ponzi scheme. But that hurts the lower income class the most since it takes out 6.25% of their income and they may never live to benefit from it.

Trump’s tax cuts helped billionaires pay less than the working class for first time

Economists calculate richest 400 families in US paid an average tax rate of 23% while the bottom half of households paid a rate of 24.2%

www.theguardian.com

“Taxes on the rich have been falling for decades. In 1960 the 400 richest families paid as much as 56% in taxes, by 1980 the rate had fallen to 40%. But Trump’s tax cuts – his most significant legislative victory – proved a tipping point.
Thanks to the controversial tax package the top 0.1% of US households were granted a 2.5% tax cut that pushed their rate below that of the lower 50% of US earners.”

I blame both republicans and democrats for supporting the rich but at least one side still tries to help the lower/middle class in some way.

I said it before, I’m fundamentally team Bernie but don’t believe we’re ready as a country to change how businesses and corporations function. There is no reason for these CEO’s and execs making billions while we still have such a wide gap in equality and Justice in this country. I have no idea why a rural farmer in Kansas can relate to a selfish crooked con man from New York City with a long history of corruption and taking advantage of the lower class.

 

[aneftp]

Trump’s tax cuts helped billionaires pay less than the working class for first time

Economists calculate richest 400 families in US paid an average tax rate of 23% while the bottom half of households paid a rate of 24.2%

www.theguardian.com

“Taxes on the rich have been falling for decades. In 1960 the 400 richest families paid as much as 56% in taxes, by 1980 the rate had fallen to 40%. But Trump’s tax cuts – his most significant legislative victory – proved a tipping point.
Thanks to the controversial tax package the top 0.1% of US households were granted a 2.5% tax cut that pushed their rate below that of the lower 50% of US earners.”

I blame both republicans and democrats for supporting the rich but at least one side still tries to help the lower/middle class in some way.

I said it before, I’m fundamentally team Bernie but don’t believe we’re ready as a country to change how businesses and corporations function. There is no reason for these CEO’s and execs making billions while we still have such a wide gap in equality and Justice in this country. I have no idea why a rural farmer in Kansas can relate to a selfish crooked con man from New York City with a long history of corruption and taking advantage of the lower class.

You realize 40% of Americans pay zero (0) in federal taxes

More than 40% of U.S. households will owe no federal income tax, down from last year, according to a new analysis

More than 72 million American households will pay no federal income taxes this year, marking a large decline from last year, the Tax Policy Center said.

www.cnbc.com

We can play these democratic games who pays what in taxes.

Most of the lower income people get hit with social security taxes like I mentioned the 6.25% fica. That’s your socialism there. Everyone pays into that. Even if you lift the cap on social security it still wouldn’t help much.

So what tax do you want the rich to pay? Capital gains is already double taxed money. It’s taxed once when you earn income. Then taxed again at 15-20% plus 3.8% Obamacare taxes. That’s a whopping 23.8% capital Gains taxes on already taxed month the “rich” paid 35% to began with

So you want to tax the rich 50%. Then have them reinvest it and get taxed another 23.8%?

Even high taxed countries like the UK the capital gains is 28% short and long term. So the short term gains taxes is actually LESS in uk than usa.

You wonder why Bernie Sander didn’t have a chance Democrats talk a big game in terms of taxing the rich. But democrats want to protect their own assets. Why do you think Nancy Pelosi hides all her money in Tax
Shelters. How about John Kerry let’s tax the rich making more than 250k yet hides his yatch in a different state to avoid taxes. They are hypocrites

Bernie is close to socialists. Socialist theories work “in theory” when someone else is paying for it. Wonder why bernie own state failed in their “Medicare for all single payer Vermont plan?”

Because they did the math and it would take around a 18% healthcare tax on the entire population of Vermont to fund it. Good luck finding middle ground who pays for it. Everyone wants someone else to pay for it.

So say we docs make 500k. Our healthcare tax would be close to 100k to fund Medicare for all.

Are you ok with paying 100k in healthcare tax off ur salary? Be honest.

I wouldn’t be ok. Neither would 99% of the USA population

Than the lower wage earners would say. “How about those making less than 200k pay 10% health care taxes”. Those making. Less than 100k pay less than 7%

Those making less than 50k would get it for free?

See where the problem lies. No one wants to pay for it.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

You realize 40% of Americans pay zero (0) in federal taxes

More than 40% of U.S. households will owe no federal income tax, down from last year, according to a new analysis

More than 72 million American households will pay no federal income taxes this year, marking a large decline from last year, the Tax Policy Center said.

www.cnbc.com

We can play these democratic games who pays what in taxes.

Most of the lower income people get hit with social security taxes like I mentioned the 6.25% fica. That’s your socialism there. Everyone pays into that. Even if you lift the cap on social security it still wouldn’t help much.

So what tax do you want the rich to pay? Capital gains is already double taxed money. It’s taxed once when you earn income. Then taxed again at 15-20% plus 3.8% Obamacare taxes. That’s a whopping 23.8% capital Gains taxes on already taxed month the “rich” paid 35% to began with

So you want to tax the rich 50%. Then have them reinvest it and get taxed another 23.8%?

Even high taxed countries like the UK the capital gains is 28% short and long term. So the short term gains taxes is actually LESS in uk than usa.

You wonder why Bernie Sander didn’t have a chance Democrats talk a big game in terms of taxing the rich. But democrats want to protect their own assets. Why do you think Nancy Pelosi hides all her money in Tax
Shelters. How about John Kerry let’s tax the rich making more than 250k yet hides his yatch in a different state to avoid taxes. They are hypocrites

Bernie is close to socialists. Socialist theories work “in theory” when someone else is paying for it. Wonder why bernie own state failed in their “Medicare for all single payer Vermont plan?”

Because they did the math and it would take around a 18% healthcare tax on the entire population of Vermont to fund it. Good luck finding middle ground who pays for it. Everyone wants someone else to pay for it.

So say we docs make 500k. Our healthcare tax would be close to 100k to fund Medicare for all.

Are you ok with paying 100k in healthcare tax off ur salary? Be honest.

I wouldn’t be ok. Neither would 99% of the USA population

Than the lower wage earners would say. “How about those making less than 200k pay 10% health care taxes”. Those making. Less than 100k pay less than 7%

Those making less than 50k would get it for free?

See where the problem lies. No one wants to pay for it.

I mentioned I’m fundamentally a supporter of Bernie because as you stated, our economy and system isn’t set up for how an idealistic socialist economy should run. I do believe that the distribution of wealth is making it harder for the middle class to function and that a healthy government support system could provide benefits to every American. Look at the cost of health care as an example. Are you going to tell me that HCA is the perfect example of how a business should run?

As for me paying taxes, I would gladly pay more if it meant less people uninsured and having a more efficient socioeconomic society (higher pay for teachers, free education, yes universal healthcare, etc). Instead we decide to cut Medicaid:

Millions will lose health insurance starting Saturday. But they might not know it. — ABC News

Saturday marks the first day states can remove people from Medicaid rolls.

apple.news

What I don’t want to see is my tax money being wasted bailing out companies that are bankrupt or funding another 20 year war or upgrading Trump’s mansion or making money of his security:

Mar-a-Lago Gets $600,000 Security Upgrade on Taxpayers’ Dime

Trump’s gaudy hideaway has been criticized in recent years for its shoddy defenses against everything from intruders to malware to spies.

www.thedailybeast.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-secret-service-charges/2021/05/20/d328eb5c-9d36-11eb-b7a8-014b14aeb9e4_story.html

 

[aneftp]

I mentioned I’m fundamentally a supporter of Bernie because as you stated, our economy and system isn’t set up for how an idealistic socialist economy should run. I do believe that the distribution of wealth is making it harder for the middle class to function and that a healthy government support system could provide benefits to every American. Look at the cost of health care as an example. Are you going to tell me that HCA is the perfect example of how a business should run?

As for me paying taxes, I would gladly pay more if it meant less people uninsured and having a more efficient socioeconomic society (higher pay for teachers, free education, yes universal healthcare, etc). Instead we decide to cut Medicaid:

Millions will lose health insurance starting Saturday. But they might not know it. — ABC News

Saturday marks the first day states can remove people from Medicaid rolls.

apple.news

What I don’t want to see is my tax money being wasted bailing out companies that are bankrupt or funding another 20 year war or upgrading Trump’s mansion or making money of his security:

Mar-a-Lago Gets $600,000 Security Upgrade on Taxpayers’ Dime

Trump’s gaudy hideaway has been criticized in recent years for its shoddy defenses against everything from intruders to malware to spies.

www.thedailybeast.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-secret-service-charges/2021/05/20/d328eb5c-9d36-11eb-b7a8-014b14aeb9e4_story.html

You need to incentivize people to get off Medicaid. My own estimate is at least 30% can get off it.

Back pain is the number one most common form of not being able to work.

Obama went on to put fibromyalgia as an excuse to be on social security disability

People think I’m kidding. But that was 2012 with Obama in office. He’s the chief executive who approved this crap letting fibromyalgia into the social security disability loophole

SSR 12-2p

Once you get on social security disability. Medicaid eligibility can follow soon.

There is no incentive to get off the govt programs once you get on it.

 

[rowsdower88]

You need to incentivize people to get off Medicaid. My own estimate is at least 30% can get off it.

 

[aneftp]

View attachment 368732

Look at your patients insurance next time if u work in a ghetto hospital.

If they can walk in the door. They can work.

 

[aneftp]

View attachment 368732

“But disability has also become a de facto welfare program for people without a lot of education or job skills. But it wasn't supposed to serve this purpose; it's not a retraining program designed to get people back onto their feet. Once people go onto disability, they almost never go back to work. Fewer than 1 percent of those who were on the federal program for disabled workers at the beginning of 2011 have returned to the workforce since then, one economist told me.”

Read the article. It’s long.

Unfit for Work: The startling rise of disability in America

In the past three decades, the number of Americans who are on disability has skyrocketed. The rise has come even as medical advances have allowed many more people to remain on the job and new laws have banned workplace discrimination against the disabled. Every month, 14 million people now get a...

apps.npr.org

It’s a very common fact. People will find excuses

 

[BLADEMDA]

For the extreme progressives here their response to FACTS are name-calling like Misogynist or racist. That is the type of response expected of someone who can't actually back-up their position with facts.

If I post an article which delineates point by point the reasons behind my position I get called disgusting names. If I seek a color blind society then that by definition is racist? We can all agree that discrimination against African Americans has been around for hundred of years. We can agree that we have made progress but there is still more to be done to level the playing field. But, many of us object to just how far reverse racism has gone today and is trending for the next few years. Is race and gender the metrics we use for admittance? Do qualifications even matter? I humbly submit to you that they no longer do matter because the progressive left has taken over the narrative that social engineering is the goal no matter the cost.

Fortunately, SCOTUS will begin to push back against this unconstitutional narrative of using race for admittance, promotion and selection. Still, this won't be enough to stop the social engineering project of re-making the USA. Progressives are convinced we will better off as a country because of it; I remain convinced we will be much worse off by selecting our pilots and neurosurgeons based solely on the color of their skin.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

“But disability has also become a de facto welfare program for people without a lot of education or job skills. But it wasn't supposed to serve this purpose; it's not a retraining program designed to get people back onto their feet. Once people go onto disability, they almost never go back to work. Fewer than 1 percent of those who were on the federal program for disabled workers at the beginning of 2011 have returned to the workforce since then, one economist told me.”

Read the article. It’s long.

Unfit for Work: The startling rise of disability in America

In the past three decades, the number of Americans who are on disability has skyrocketed. The rise has come even as medical advances have allowed many more people to remain on the job and new laws have banned workplace discrimination against the disabled. Every month, 14 million people now get a...

apps.npr.org

It’s a very common fact. People will find excuses

I think none of us are happy that this is a political issue. We all know some folks need to be on disability but the rest is a scam.

I have always heard that it is very difficult to get it approved but I see folks everyday on it.

 

[rowsdower88]

“But disability has also become a de facto welfare program for people without a lot of education or job skills. But it wasn't supposed to serve this purpose; it's not a retraining program designed to get people back onto their feet. Once people go onto disability, they almost never go back to work. Fewer than 1 percent of those who were on the federal program for disabled workers at the beginning of 2011 have returned to the workforce since then, one economist told me.”

Read the article. It’s long.

Unfit for Work: The startling rise of disability in America

In the past three decades, the number of Americans who are on disability has skyrocketed. The rise has come even as medical advances have allowed many more people to remain on the job and new laws have banned workplace discrimination against the disabled. Every month, 14 million people now get a...

apps.npr.org

It’s a very common fact. People will find excuses

Good article. Doesn't back up the 30% claim. No disputing there is some gaming of the system going on. The questions always have been how meaningful is it and what are sensible solutions to correcting it that minimize unjust harm to those with disabilities we consider valid.

 

[aneftp]

Crazy these millennials posting about not matching. Not sure what her speciality she wanted to go into. But looks like she goes to some new Californian lcme med school? California university ?l that opened up in 2015

TikTok - Make Your Day

 

[BLADEMDA]

Crazy these millennials posting about not matching. Not sure what her speciality she wanted to go into. But looks like she goes to some new Californian lcme med school? California university ?l that opened up in 2015

TikTok - Make Your Day

Med students need good advice to Match in 2024. Are they getting the advice they need? If the chance at success is 70% will that student still try to Match? What if it is 80%? Too many great kids will go UNMATCHED because he/she gambled their future for the dream; I think a student should choose a specialty based on 90% success rate of Matching; if the rate is lower then a backup plan is vital to that student. Is the student willing to forgo a realistic specialty with good prospects to have a chance at their dream specialty? That's where the MATCH falls short.

 

[rowsdower88]

Crazy these millennials posting about not matching. Not sure what her speciality she wanted to go into. But looks like she goes to some new Californian lcme med school? California university ?l that opened up in 2015

TikTok - Make Your Day

According to this, she's making between $200-$300/post, maybe more if she's cross posting to other platforms. Not bad for 30-50sec posts with some editing work. I had no idea med students were trying to be influencers too. Not sure how much of a risk it is, never know if you have to interview with an older PD who would be against TikTok for any number of reasons.

TikTok Money Calculator [Influencer Engagement & Earnings Estimator]

The TikTok Money Calculator allows you to calculate your estimated earnings from your TikTok account. Calculate any TikTok accounts estimated post worth

influencermarketinghub.com