3.2 GPA, URM, Where Do I Go From Here?

[Soso694]

I am a URM (black) and will be graduating this week with a 3.2 in Molecular and Cellular Biology/Neuroscience focus. My GPA took a huge hit sophomore year due to personal reasons (I had several Cs in one semester) and then second semester junior year, I had to drop and withdraw from all but two classes due to health issues.

I will be taking the MCAT in August. My ECs are pretty good. I've also done research and have extensive volunteer experience in hospitals and clinics both inside and outside the country (Latin America and Nigeria).

I really want to get into a good MD-MPH program, but because my GPA is pretty low for med school and with me taking my MCAT in August, my application won't be submitted until September and I'm concerned about my chances of getting into a med school this cycle. I don't want to move the MCAT forward because I don't think I'll be ready.

I don't feel like I've gotten a lot of good advice from my advisors and peers, so I want to ask you all...

Should I bother applying this cycle, given my stats and when I'd be submitting?
Are there programs that will accept me into their MPH programs first and then allow me to add MD if I'm accepted?
If applying this cycle isn't an option, where do I go from here?

Thank you!

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[sss1219]

What's your sGPA? I would likely say don't apply this cycle, you're shooting yourself in the foot applying that late and your highest possible MCAT is necessary so you'll need the time to study. I would wait a year to apply, do well on your MCAT, and spend both your gap year and application year retaking some of those classes via post bacc, SMP, CC, or whatever. You could also consider doing your MPH in those 2 years, but those things aren't overly sciency so I don't know how much forgiveness they'd provide.

 

[Soso694]

Thank you!

 

[Espressso]

I recommend a gap year. You can focus exclusively on the MCAT, rock it, and then shift focus to preparing to apply next June. As many adcoms on SDN point out, when it comes to medical school admissions.... Take your time, a gap year never hurt anyone.

 

[Willows]

I agree with sss1219. Take a gap year and get the best MCAT score possible. Those grades you have Cs or below, I would suggest retaking them if you are open to the D.O/MPH route. If you want to do MD, try a SMP or even a Masters program to strengthen your application.

 

[Soso694]

Hey guys. I have a question about SMPs. Rather than shell out $20-40,000 to go to one, will retaking the sciences classes I got Cs and C+'s in suffice?

 

[Espressso]

Hey guys. I have a question about SMPs. Rather than shell out $20-40,000 to go to one, will retaking the sciences classes I got Cs and C+'s in suffice?

Well retaking calsses as you mentioned doesn't actually "replace" the grade, since AMCAS averages the two grades. With an SMP, you're not necessarily improving your GPA or having AMCAS average anything, but instead, you're showing them that you can excel in medical school courses. For example, if your last two years of UG show an upward trend, but your gpa is still below average, acing a SMP will show adcoms that your upward trend has continued in a much more rigorous setting.

 

[Cookiess]

I would not apply this year. An August MCAT test date is really late and puts you at a significant disadvantage. Assuming that your science GPA is near a 3.2, your science GPA will be on the low end for MD schools and that will have an impact as well in addition to applying late. I would use the summer to focus on studying for the MCAT and doing well in August. After you finish your MCAT, I would take science classes during your gap year to improve your science GPA.

An MPH won't help to solve your issue of having a low science GPA in terms of improving your chances of getting into med school as much as taking science classes (either on your own or through a formal postbac/SMP program) would.

A lot of med schools offer the MD/MPH dual degree option and for most of them, you can apply once you start med school because you would be taking a year off during med school (often times between your 3rd and 4th years of med school) to complete the MPH component. Only a select few MD/MPH programs require you to apply to the MD/MPH program prior to starting med school (Tufts and USC Keck come to mind) and that's because the MPH component is built into the MD curriculum and you would graduate with the MD/MPH in 4 years, so they select their students prior to the start of med school.

 

[neekzg]

Solid advice from Cookiess. Do not apply this year. Submitting in September even with a good MCAT will be a waste of time/money. You very much have to address that GPA, particularly if you're trying to do MD.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I want to strongly reiterate that you should consider applying June 17 rather than Sep 16.

 

[Soso694]

Thank you all! So I took what you said into consideration and this is what I'm thinking of doing (please interject if you see any problems with my plan).

• I'm going to apply to 3 MD schools (one a dream school, one slightly out of my reach but probable, the other a target) and maybe 1 DO program this cycle. Just to give it a try, because if I do get in, that'll be amazing. I'll submit my primary application in July and hopefully by the time I'm verified and they send me the secondary (if they send me the secondary), I'll have my MCAT score by then. I've had friends who applied in June but didn't get interviews until mid-November, some who applied in July, but they didn't send secondaries out until January, so maybe I have hope?
• I'm going to apply for a post-bacc certificate program that lets you pay by course rather than give you a base tuition rate and start in the fall. (will kind of be like retaking classes, but they won't be at CCs. ) I have questions about which ones in the Chicago area are the best to apply to though or the quality. If the first plan doesn't work out, at least me doing well in these courses might make up for the weak GPA next cycle.
• As for the MPH, I'll just apply along with the MD programs for both cycles.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Don't apply to medical school on a whim or a prayer. Apply when you are [at least reasonably sure you are] going to get in.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Thank you all! So I took what you said into consideration and this is what I'm thinking of doing (please interject if you see any problems with my plan).

• I'm going to apply to 3 MD schools (one a dream school, one slightly out of my reach but probable, the other a target) and maybe 1 DO program this cycle. Just to give it a try, because if I do get in, that'll be amazing. I'll submit my primary application in July and hopefully by the time I'm verified and they send me the secondary (if they send me the secondary), I'll have my MCAT score by then. I've had friends who applied in June but didn't get interviews until mid-November, some who applied in July, but they didn't send secondaries out until January, so maybe I have hope?
• I'm going to apply for a post-bacc certificate program that lets you pay by course rather than give you a base tuition rate and start in the fall. (will kind of be like retaking classes, but they won't be at CCs. ) I have questions about which ones in the Chicago area are the best to apply to though or the quality. If the first plan doesn't work out, at least me doing well in these courses might make up for the weak GPA next cycle.
• As for the MPH, I'll just apply along with the MD programs for both cycles.

Do not apply late. Don't apply to schools 'just in case you'd get in'. If you don't get in, which is very likely, then you would be considered a reapplicant at those schools and your future chances of getting in go down. Schools have rolling admissions and some start sending out interview offers as early as August. Interviews could be happening and people getting acceptances before you've even completed your application. You get put at the end of the list and with your lower GPA, you have a harder chance of getting that interview.

You don't have to apply to a formal post-bacc program. You can do it yourself by taking courses at a local college/university. Make sure you read the rules for grade replacement with the DO schools so that the courses you take to replace your prior grades will actually count.

Once you have taken the MCAT and remediated your grades, THAT is the time for you to apply for med school. You need your first application to be your best application. If that takes 1-3 years to make happen, well, so be it. Medical schools aren't going anywhere. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Make it count.

 

[Theafoni]

Thank you all! So I took what you said into consideration and this is what I'm thinking of doing (please interject if you see any problems with my plan).

• I'm going to apply to 3 MD schools (one a dream school, one slightly out of my reach but probable, the other a target) and maybe 1 DO program this cycle. Just to give it a try, because if I do get in, that'll be amazing. I'll submit my primary application in July and hopefully by the time I'm verified and they send me the secondary (if they send me the secondary), I'll have my MCAT score by then. I've had friends who applied in June but didn't get interviews until mid-November, some who applied in July, but they didn't send secondaries out until January, so maybe I have hope

As optimistic as you may be, I would really recommend you don't apply. Save your money and your time. Do the post-bac program and study for your mcat, beef up your ec's. I bet you'd have an even better chance next year.

 

[Soso694]

Thank you all! I guess you're right though it kills me that the earliest I'll start is 2018.
For post-bacc programs how many hours are recommended?

 

[CHoge25]

Thank you all! I guess you're right though it kills me that the earliest I'll start is 2018.
For post-bacc programs how many hours are recommended?

How ever many credits you can take and get A's in, do not overload yourself

 

[sloppypapi]

Hm, I'm in a similar boat as you. The advice I got from SDN was quite different. I've taken my MCAT earlier (and still await the scores), so the timing is very different, but I was told that as a URM, it probably isn't worth retaking classes to raise a C. Beginning at around a ~28 MCAT (which I think is below a 510), black applicants have a 70% chance of being accepted into an MD program.

But of course, applying late will reduce those chances, so you probably are better off taking the year off to increase those chances. I just had to comment, because the responses totally conflict what I've been told, and my cGPA is 3.24/sGPA is 3.5 with an upward trend.

 

[candbgirl]

Hm, I'm in a similar boat as you. The advice I got from SDN was quite different. I've taken my MCAT earlier (and still await the scores), so the timing is very different, but I was told that as a URM, it probably isn't worth retaking classes to raise a C. Beginning at around a ~28 MCAT (which I think is below a 510), black applicants have a 70% chance of being accepted into an MD program.

But of course, applying late will reduce those chances, so you probably are better off taking the year off to increase those chances. I just had to comment, because the responses totally conflict what I've been told, and my cGPA is 3.24/sGPA is 3.5 with an upward trend.

Totally different advice because the circumstances are totally different. OP has no MCAT, won't be applying until August, MCAT not available until September etcetc. . The key is to apply day one not month three.


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[Soso694]

Hm, I'm in a similar boat as you. The advice I got from SDN was quite different. I've taken my MCAT earlier (and still await the scores), so the timing is very different, but I was told that as a URM, it probably isn't worth retaking classes to raise a C. Beginning at around a ~28 MCAT (which I think is below a 510), black applicants have a 70% chance of being accepted into an MD program.

But of course, applying late will reduce those chances, so you probably are better off taking the year off to increase those chances. I just had to comment, because the responses totally conflict what I've been told, and my cGPA is 3.24/sGPA is 3.5 with an upward trend.

Thank you so much! I'll apply anyway and only aim for target schools. If I don't get in, I'll just take one semester of science classes and re-apply next year. I'm thinking of submitting my application without the MCAT in July. So hopefully by the time it's verified and my primary is in, my MCAT score will be made available.

 

[7331poas]

Thank you so much! I'll apply anyway and only aim for target schools. If I don't get in, I'll just take one semester of science classes and re-apply next year. I'm thinking of submitting my application without the MCAT in July. So hopefully by the time it's verified and my primary is in, my MCAT score will be made available.

So basically ignore all the advice given in this thread.

You want to apply once. You make things harder for yourself if you mess up and are a reapplicant in 2017.

 

[mehc012]

Speaking as someone who found themselves in a similar boat (graduated with just under a 3.2, similar timeline), I'd really advise taking a gap year and taking some more upper level sciences to show (both to yourself and to med schools) that those bad semesters were the exception, and you are actually ready for this. It will also give you more time to take the MCAT, which if we're being honest here, you need to do very well on, not simply 'fine'.

Don't rush this. Apply once, and apply right. If you have any questions, feel free to message me, but since you seem to be set on your plan and ignoring advice, I think I'll wait until you actually ask for further tips before going through the trouble of typing anything out.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

PLEASE PLEASE listen to this thread! Being a URM in a medical school application cycle is literally a golden ticket. The MCAT requirements are lower and so are the GPAs (not by much but enough to make a difference). If you actually do what you have to, remediate bad grades, retake C's and do well on the MCAT you can do a DO/MPH program (currently applying to them now). As for MD you need a SMP with a good MCAT. You have a VERY good chance again as a URM but you need to do this right. In one program I am in I saw a URM with a 3.5 gpa and a 31 MCAT get into Columbia where as the ORM with a 3.8 and 32 MCAT didn't (same ECs I asked lol) so trust me you stand a good chance just do these next two years right and you will have everything you ever wanted.

Good Luck

 

[mehc012]

PLEASE PLEASE listen to this thread! Being a URM in a medical school application cycle is literally a golden ticket. The MCAT requirements are lower and so are the GPAs (not by much but enough to make a difference). If you actually do what you have to, remediate bad grades, retake C's and do well on the MCAT you can do a DO/MPH program (currently applying to them now). As for MD you need a SMP with a good MCAT. You have a VERY good chance again as a URM but you need to do this right. In one program I am in I saw a URM with a 3.5 gpa and a 31 MCAT get into Columbia where as the ORM with a 3.8 and 32 MCAT didn't (same ECs I asked lol) so trust me you stand a good chance just do these next two years right and you will have everything you ever wanted.

Good Luck

Still wouldn't retake the Cs for MD application. What's past is past...now OP has to show that they can perform well in the present. Again, which is more impressive: getting an A in a 100-level course that you've already taken once, or getting an A in a 300-level course you've never seen before, one that builds off the knowledge base of the first one?

Also, OP does not need an SMP. It's an option, sure, but an expensive/more risky one than taking the time to get a good trend going and rock the MCAT. I'd advise a gap year or so in which they take multiple upper level sciences and study hardcore for the MCAT, and then an MD cycle. If that doesn't work, it may be time to consider an SMP.

I know an SMP is not required in this circumstance because I just finished going through the process described above, successfully, after graduating with <3.2 myself (ORM). Sure, my MCAT was very high, and it's not realistic to expect OP to necessarily score top percentile, but with a good trend, solid (3.9+) postbacc, well-written application/school list, and an above-average MCAT they stand a good chance.

 

[runescape1337]

you are URM
just apply. pretty sure you have the same chances as an asian with a 4.0

 

[sloppypapi]

Thank you so much! I'll apply anyway and only aim for target schools. If I don't get in, I'll just take one semester of science classes and re-apply next year. I'm thinking of submitting my application without the MCAT in July. So hopefully by the time it's verified and my primary is in, my MCAT score will be made available.

So basically ignore all the advice given in this thread.

You want to apply once. You make things harder for yourself if you mess up and are a reapplicant in 2017.

Yeah Soso694, I think as a fellow low GPA URM, I'd ultimately advise that you take that gap year. There's a chance you could get into a medical school if you applied this year, but think of what you could potentially achieve if you took the gap year to take a few more classes and prepare for the MCAT. Those gap years can actually go by pretty quickly, so no need to hurry things.

 

[Soso694]

Yeah Soso694, I think as a fellow low GPA URM, I'd ultimately advise that you take that gap year. There's a chance you could get into a medical school if you applied this year, but think of what you could potentially achieve if you took the gap year to take a few more classes and prepare for the MCAT. Those gap years can actually go by pretty quickly, so no need to hurry things.

Thank you. I'm leaning toward just doing both. I won't waste hundreds of dollars applying to a whole bunch of schools because that's silly, but I'll aim for a few targets who look for and consider people like me. (Not just similar GPA but applicants interested in underserved community based work). I'll take a semester of upper level science courses in the fall to prove my competency and use the gap (or glide if I make it to interviews) to get more clinical experience, so that even if I do end up being a reapplicant, I'd have done a lot to improve my application by the time they review it again, and also by that time I'll probably apply to more higher tier schools, or schools that are currently reaches for me anyway. I honestly don't see the harm in doing both.

I even decided if I do end up having to reapply next cycle, I'll do a one year MPH program during that glide year.

Does anyone see any issues with this plan?

 

[gyngyn]

Thank you. I'm leaning toward just doing both. I won't waste hundreds of dollars applying to a whole bunch of schools because that's silly, but I'll aim for a few targets who look for and consider people like me. (Not just similar GPA but applicants interested in underserved community based work). I'll take a semester of upper level science courses in the fall to prove my competency and use the gap (or glide if I make it to interviews) to get more clinical experience, so that even if I do end up being a reapplicant, I'd have done a lot to improve my application by the time they review it again, and also by that time I'll probably apply to more higher tier schools, or schools that are currently reaches for me anyway. I honestly don't see the harm in doing both.

I even decided if I do end up having to reapply next cycle, I'll do a one year MPH program during that glide year.

Does anyone see any issues with this plan?

In the best case scenario, you get into a school that you feel is less good than the one you could have gotten into with a better application.

 

[jux.ta.pose]

Thank you. I'm leaning toward just doing both. I won't waste hundreds of dollars applying to a whole bunch of schools because that's silly, but I'll aim for a few targets who look for and consider people like me. (Not just similar GPA but applicants interested in underserved community based work). I'll take a semester of upper level science courses in the fall to prove my competency and use the gap (or glide if I make it to interviews) to get more clinical experience, so that even if I do end up being a reapplicant, I'd have done a lot to improve my application by the time they review it again, and also by that time I'll probably apply to more higher tier schools, or schools that are currently reaches for me anyway. I honestly don't see the harm in doing both.

I even decided if I do end up having to reapply next cycle, I'll do a one year MPH program during that glide year.

Does anyone see any issues with this plan?

Fellow URM that had similar stats and did not get in the first time around. Trust me, take it slow and do a gap year. Apply one time and get accepted that time. If you're determined to apply this year, apply DO and they might give you a chance. But if you want to go allopathic just wait and do it right.

 

[mehc012]

Thank you. I'm leaning toward just doing both. I won't waste hundreds of dollars applying to a whole bunch of schools because that's silly, but I'll aim for a few targets who look for and consider people like me. (Not just similar GPA but applicants interested in underserved community based work). I'll take a semester of upper level science courses in the fall to prove my competency and use the gap (or glide if I make it to interviews) to get more clinical experience, so that even if I do end up being a reapplicant, I'd have done a lot to improve my application by the time they review it again, and also by that time I'll probably apply to more higher tier schools, or schools that are currently reaches for me anyway. I honestly don't see the harm in doing both.

I even decided if I do end up having to reapply next cycle, I'll do a one year MPH program during that glide year.

Does anyone see any issues with this plan?

We see lots of issues with it, which is why pretty much everyone has advised against it already. But I'll leave the initial application part aside, for now, since I think you want less 'advice' and more 'approval'.

An MPH might help, because it's something you're already clearly interested in and it will demonstrate that to schools with a similar mission to your own...but I still think a series of undergraduate classes would help far more. Your GPA is the issue here, and you're refusing to address it.

 

[Soso694]

We see lots of issues with it, which is why pretty much everyone has advised against it already. But I'll leave the initial application part aside, for now, since I think you want less 'advice' and more 'approval'.

An MPH might help, because it's something you're already clearly interested in and it will demonstrate that to schools with a similar mission to your own...but I still think a series of undergraduate classes would help far more. Your GPA is the issue here, and you're refusing to address it.

Yeah. You're misunderstanding me. I'm doing the UG science classes regardless. The MPH would be for my glide year, not my gap year. My GPA is addressed in both situations.

 

[Soso694]

Yeah Soso694, I think as a fellow low GPA URM, I'd ultimately advise that you take that gap year. There's a chance you could get into a medical school if you applied this year, but think of what you could potentially achieve if you took the gap year to take a few more classes and prepare for the MCAT. Those gap years can actually go by pretty quickly, so no need to hurry things.

In the best case scenario, you get into a school that you feel is less good than the one you could have gotten into with a better application.

Fellow URM that had similar stats and did not get in the first time around. Trust me, take it slow and do a gap year. Apply one time and get accepted that time. If you're determined to apply this year, apply DO and they might give you a chance. But if you want to go allopathic just wait and do it right.

Thank you all! gyngyn brought up a great point about me being capable of getting into a better school if I took a gap year and then applied. Besides that, what exactly are the other detriments to applying this cycle? I get that being a reapplicant means you have to show improvement, but if I'm working on that already, why is it so bad? Just want to know, because people always say this, but I never got a definitive reason for it other than the "show significant improvement" requirement or "fix what is wrong" (Which would be my GPA in this case) requirement.

Also @jux.ta.pose did you first apply after your senior year or after your junior year?

 

[gyngyn]

Thank you all! gyngyn brought up a great point about me being capable of getting into a better school if I took a gap year and then applied. Besides that, what exactly are the other detriments to applying this cycle? I get that being a reapplicant means you have to show improvement, but if I'm working on that already, why is it so bad? Just want to know, because people always say this, but I never got a definitive reason for it other than the "show significant improvement" requirement or "fix what is wrong" (Which would be my GPA in this case) requirement.

The schools where you become a re-applicant are going to presume that you got interviews (elsewhere) and did poorly...

 

[mehc012]

Yeah. You're misunderstanding me. I'm doing the UG science classes regardless. The MPH would be for my glide year, not my gap year. My GPA is addressed in both situations.

Ah, gotcha. That is a really confusing way to describe things, btw. I'm not sure where you're drawing the lines between all of these years, but I'm skeptical as to the timelines of doing a substantial amount of postbacc work and an MPH and still making it to whichever med school you (hopefully) get accepted to by orientation day. I would advise more than 1 semester of postbacc work.

 

[jux.ta.pose]

I applied after my senior year. I had very little guidance and was really naive about the entire process.

I felt like the schools I applied to already had a particular view of me. So I had to be super prepared and explain why I applied the first time instead of waiting. I had to explain why I chose to reapply. I had to explain my rationale for doing a masters program, why I chose that program and that school. Why I didn't do x, y, or z. Then I finally got to talk about my love of medicine and experience in medicine.

Take this scenario---you could go to the grocery store and buy a steak and cook it OR you could slaughter the cow yourself (insert laborious process here) and then cook it. Which would you do? Both ways are possible and you would have steak either way. But why put yourself in a more difficult position when the application process is already stressful.

 

[Soso694]

Ah, gotcha. That is a really confusing way to describe things, btw. I'm not sure where you're drawing the lines between all of these years, but I'm skeptical as to the timelines of doing a substantial amount of postbacc work and an MPH and still making it to whichever med school you (hopefully) get accepted to by orientation day. I would advise more than 1 semester of postbacc work.

Yeah sorry, I've been trying to get hip to the lingo around here. From my understanding, gap year is the year off when you're not applying/interviewing for med school & just building application or traveling, and glide year is the year off when you are applying/interviewing for med school. I was thinking of taking upper level science classes during my gap year (not post-bacc program, because I honestly don't think my situation is that dire to be paying $30,000 because of a few C and C+s ) and then doing one year MPH program during my glide year.

 

[mehc012]

Yeah sorry, I've been trying to get hip to the lingo around here. From my understanding, gap year is the year off when you're not applying/interviewing for med school & just building application or traveling, and glide year is the year off when you are applying/interviewing for med school. I was thinking of taking upper level science classes during my gap year (not post-bacc program, because I honestly don't think my situation is that dire to be paying $30,000 because of a few C and C+s ) and then doing one year MPH program during my glide year.

Haha, nah, I know the lingo, it's just hard to use them both at once and make real plans.
I also don't think your situation is dire enough to require $30,000. However, any undergrad classes taken after graduation will be called a postbacc. So when I advise a postbacc, I'm definitely not advising a formal one...just some upper levels taken.

Dug up an old guide I wrote to give you an idea of what sort of options lie ahead. Hope it helps!

As a quick overview:
Postbacc: Any undergraduate-level classes taken after graduation from college. These DO affect your AMCAS gpa calculations and can also be seen separately by adcoms (gpas are divided by year: freshman/sophomore/junior/senior/postbacc). This could be one class or many. You can take them piecemeal (DIY or informal postbacc) or as part of an official program (formal postbacc)
Formal Postbacc: A series of undergraduate classes designed for premedical students. Often these include the prerequisites and the programs are intended for career changers - these programs often do not accept students who have taken many med school prereq courses. Others are for GPA repair. These programs are usually 1-2 years long, require application, charge a set tuition (usually very pricy) and rarely have linkage or special consideration from their associated medical school. They affect AMCAS gpa
DIY Postbacc: Any set of undergraduate courses taken after graduation, typically in a pay-by-course fashion, from any combination of schools. This is less structured, requires no application, and never has any sort of linkage, but the scheduling and payment structure can be better for working folks.
Masters: When used alone, this usually refers to a standard graduate school program. Typically on SDN this will be a research-based grad program, but can also refer to some specialized programs such as MPHs, etc. The GPA from these programs does not affect your AMCAS gpa (though it will be listed separately) and tends to be given low weight by adcoms due to varying rigor across the country and low familiarity (among other things). A low grad GPA can hurt you, but even a great one will not do much to offset poor undergrad performance. Generally the consensus is, do a masters if you would have done it anyway (aside from getting into med) or if it factors into the future career track you are considering in some way. Duration variable; some MPHs are a year, other masters can last several.
SMP: While this is also technically a master's program (special master's program), it is the exception to the rule above: these programs can strongly help offset a low undergrad GPA. It is essentially 'do med school to prove you can do med school'. Often, people will take courses alongside med students. However, do poorly in an SMP and you are basically done. Many of these programs have linkages to their med schools (or at least interview consideration). The price tag, however, is pretty hefty. These are pretty much universally 1yr programs. Edit: I'm starting to see more 2yr ones, though you can apply at any point.

Of those, all I'd recommend to you at first is a bit of a DIY postbacc.

 

[Soso694]

The schools where you become a re-applicant are going to presume that you got interviews (elsewhere) and did poorly...

That's interesting. They wouldn't just assume I didn't get into their school the first time?

I applied after my senior year. I had very little guidance and was really naive about the entire process.

I felt like the schools I applied to already had a particular view of me. So I had to be super prepared and explain why I applied the first time instead of waiting. I had to explain why I chose to reapply. I had to explain my rationale for doing a masters program, why I chose that program and that school. Why I didn't do x, y, or z. Then I finally got to talk about my love of medicine and experience in medicine.

Take this scenario---you could go to the grocery store and buy a steak and cook it OR you could slaughter the cow yourself (insert laborious process here) and then cook it. Which would you do? Both ways are possible and you would have steak either way. But why put yourself in a more difficult position when the application process is already stressful.

Thank you so much. That was very informative.

 

[gyngyn]

That's interesting. They wouldn't just assume I didn't get into their school the first time?
.

No, we assume that serious candidates gave their application all the attention that something this important requires.
Therefore, we would expect that you applied to enough schools that correspond to your stats and strengths.

 

[Soso694]

Haha, nah, I know the lingo, it's just hard to use them both at once and make real plans.
I also don't think your situation is dire enough to require $30,000. However, any undergrad classes taken after graduation will be called a postbacc. So when I advise a postbacc, I'm definitely not advising a formal one...just some upper levels taken.

Dug up an old guide I wrote to give you an idea of what sort of options lie ahead. Hope it helps!

As a quick overview:
Postbacc: Any undergraduate-level classes taken after graduation from college. These DO affect your AMCAS gpa calculations and can also be seen separately by adcoms (gpas are divided by year: freshman/sophomore/junior/senior/postbacc). This could be one class or many. You can take them piecemeal (DIY or informal postbacc) or as part of an official program (formal postbacc)
Formal Postbacc: A series of undergraduate classes designed for premedical students. Often these include the prerequisites and the programs are intended for career changers - these programs often do not accept students who have taken many med school prereq courses. Others are for GPA repair. These programs are usually 1-2 years long, require application, charge a set tuition (usually very pricy) and rarely have linkage or special consideration from their associated medical school. They affect AMCAS gpa
DIY Postbacc: Any set of undergraduate courses taken after graduation, typically in a pay-by-course fashion, from any combination of schools. This is less structured, requires no application, and never has any sort of linkage, but the scheduling and payment structure can be better for working folks.
Masters: When used alone, this usually refers to a standard graduate school program. Typically on SDN this will be a research-based grad program, but can also refer to some specialized programs such as MPHs, etc. The GPA from these programs does not affect your AMCAS gpa (though it will be listed separately) and tends to be given low weight by adcoms due to varying rigor across the country and low familiarity (among other things). A low grad GPA can hurt you, but even a great one will not do much to offset poor undergrad performance. Generally the consensus is, do a masters if you would have done it anyway (aside from getting into med) or if it factors into the future career track you are considering in some way. Duration variable; some MPHs are a year, other masters can last several.
SMP: While this is also technically a master's program (special master's program), it is the exception to the rule above: these programs can strongly help offset a low undergrad GPA. It is essentially 'do med school to prove you can do med school'. Often, people will take courses alongside med students. However, do poorly in an SMP and you are basically done. Many of these programs have linkages to their med schools (or at least interview consideration). The price tag, however, is pretty hefty. These are pretty much universally 1yr programs. Edit: I'm starting to see more 2yr ones, though you can apply at any point.

Of those, all I'd recommend to you at first is a bit of a DIY postbacc.

Thank you!! So informative. Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking of doing. So for DIY, I can choose any school as long as its not a community college, correct? I'd really like to take classes at a university close to my home, though it may not be as prestigious as where I went to undergrad.

Also a question about Masters. Does this apply even if it was a Masters in a hard science or maybe someone did an MPH, but took some upper level science classes as well to offset that undergrad GPA?

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Yeah. You're misunderstanding me. I'm doing the UG science classes regardless. The MPH would be for my glide year, not my gap year. My GPA is addressed in both situations.

A MPH would not do anything to help your GPA. Masters level classes are not given much weight by admins as they are all notoriously inflated.

 

[mehc012]

A MPH would not do anything to help your GPA. Masters level classes are not given much weight by admins as they are all notoriously inflated.

Exactly. The only reason an MPH may be reasonable for OP is because he is interested in these fields, and demonstrating a strong desire to serve public health and underserved populations, combined with his background, may render him more intriguing to mission-based schools where he'd be a good fit anyway...and it'd mean he could apply straight MD instead of having to worry about applying to dual programs.

However, MD/MPH doesn't seem to really up the difficulty a ton, and most places will let you slot it in later, so I'd personally still recommend a DIY postbacc.

Thank you!! So informative. Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking of doing. So for DIY, I can choose any school as long as its not a community college, correct? I'd really like to take classes at a university close to my home, though it may not be as prestigious as where I went to undergrad.

Also a question about Masters. Does this apply even if it was a Masters in a hard science or maybe someone did an MPH, but took some upper level science classes as well to offset that undergrad GPA?

Yup, doesn't matter where you take them. Honestly the biggest reason to avoid CC in your situation is less the bias and more the fact that they generally don't offer the upper levels you need. If you can take what you need at the local U, do it! I went from one of the top schools in the nation to an Extension college for my postbacc, and it was never brought up/never seemed to hurt me.

 

[KitKat30]

Do not make the mistake of buying into this idea! Being an URM does not make it easy to get into med school and you should not lower your standards for yourself thinking that it doesn't really matter because you are an URM. I agree with those who have already advised you to take a year off to strengthen your application.

PLEASE PLEASE listen to this thread! Being a URM in a medical school application cycle is literally a golden ticket. The MCAT requirements are lower and so are the GPAs (not by much but enough to make a difference). If you actually do what you have to, remediate bad grades, retake C's and do well on the MCAT you can do a DO/MPH program (currently applying to them now). As for MD you need a SMP with a good MCAT. You have a VERY good chance again as a URM but you need to do this right. In one program I am in I saw a URM with a 3.5 gpa and a 31 MCAT get into Columbia where as the ORM with a 3.8 and 32 MCAT didn't (same ECs I asked lol) so trust me you stand a good chance just do these next two years right and you will have everything you ever wanted.

Good Luck

you are URM
just apply. pretty sure you have the same chances as an asian with a 4.0

 

[PossibleDOC?]

Do not make the mistake of buying into this idea! Being an URM does not make it easy to get into med school and you should not lower your standards for yourself thinking that it doesn't really matter because you are an URM. I agree with those who have already advised you to take a year off to strengthen your application.

I urge you to look at this chart https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/factstablea24-2.pdf if you will look a 24-26 MCAT with a 3.2-3.29 gpa is about a 56% acceptance rate. HOWEVER in this chart here https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstablea24-4.pdf you will see whites (an ORM) have an average acceptance rate of 8% with the same stats. Now this is numbers based. The numbers are closely similar in regards to Asians another ORM. As stated earlier, am I saying to apply now NO am I saying the statistics will always be in the OP's favor yes. As a URM they stand the best shot with an application that would net an ORM a big fat 0 acceptances. There is no excuse for lackluster performance on either person's favor but thats what it is so OP take advantage of it take the MCAT and kill it (the acceptance percentage only goes up if you do) and make sure you have the ECs to back it up.

Its a numbers game not a "try hard don't lower yourself" kind of feel, if they have the stats next app cycle acceptance isn't as intense as an ORM plain and simple. I urge you to look at these charts maybe then you'll get why I said golden ticket.

 

[mehc012]

I urge you to look at this chart https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/factstablea24-2.pdf if you will look a 24-26 MCAT with a 3.2-3.29 gpa is about a 56% acceptance rate. HOWEVER in this chart here https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstablea24-4.pdf you will see whites (an ORM) have an average acceptance rate of 8% with the same stats. Now this is numbers based. The numbers are closely similar in regards to Asians another ORM. As stated earlier, am I saying to apply now NO am I saying the statistics will always be in the OP's favor yes. As a URM they stand the best shot with an application that would net an ORM a big fat 0 acceptances. There is no excuse for lackluster performance on either person's favor but thats what it is so OP take advantage of it take the MCAT and kill it (the acceptance percentage only goes up if you do) and make sure you have the ECs to back it up.

Its a numbers game not a "try hard don't lower yourself" kind of feel, if they have the stats next app cycle acceptance isn't as intense as an ORM plain and simple. I urge you to look at these charts maybe then you'll get why I said golden ticket.

They don't stand "the best shot". They stand "a better shot than an ORM". Why not take the gap year and have even better odds? Pretty sure that phoning it in as 'ehh, probably good enough because I'm URM' is a good way to steer yourself towards that 44% who don't make it, never mind that OP is in the lower end of that collecting box with the 3.2 and the fact that they are planning to rush the MCAT/apply late...all things that push them more towards the unlucky half of the stats box you're mentioning.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

They don't stand "the best shot". They stand "a better shot than an ORM". Why not take the gap year and have even better odds? Pretty sure that phoning it in as 'ehh, probably good enough because I'm URM' is a good way to steer yourself towards that 44% who don't make it, never mind that OP is in the lower end of that collecting box with the 3.2 and the fact that they are planning to rush the MCAT/apply late...all things that push them more towards the unlucky half of the stats box you're mentioning.

As I said in my previous post am I condoning the application this cycle? NO, am I saying with a better MCAT and the typical cookie cutter ECs the OP gets in next year? I think they get in over an ORM and the data provides proof of that. There will always be that percentage in the box that dont get in but I'd take a 44% chance over a 92% chance of not getting in. However, I would rather have it less than 10 overall but thats just me

 

[mehc012]

As I said in my previous post am I condoning the application this cycle? NO, am I saying with a better MCAT and the typical cookie cutter ECs the OP gets in next year? I think they get in over an ORM and the data provides proof of that. There will always be that percentage in the box that dont get in but I'd take a 44% chance over a 92% chance of not getting in. However, I would rather have it less than 10 overall but thats just me

OK? But since OP can't change their URM status, this isn't a "do they have better odds as URM or ORM" question. It's just "how does OP maximize their odds." Of course you'd take a 44% failure rate over a 92% one, only you can't because those aren't mutable stats.

If you agree that he should take a year, I don't understand the point of your posting here.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

OK? But since OP can't change their URM status, this isn't a "do they have better odds as URM or ORM" question. It's just "how does OP maximize their odds." Of course you'd take a 44% failure rate over a 92% one, only you can't because those aren't mutable stats.

If you agree that he should take a year, I don't understand the point of your posting here.

I was trying to show that a gap year coupled with a good MCAT due to the gap year could drastically increase their chances

 

[mehc012]

I was trying to show that a gap year coupled with a good MCAT due to the gap year could drastically increase their chances

None of your data had anything to do with gap years or good MCATs (you specifically referenced a rather low MCAT range). Literally all you were arguing was that URM is an advantage, which isn't wrong, but doesn't really help OP know what to do now. It also had the flavor of "don't worry about improving, you're URM so you're golden" which is a very disadvantageous attitude to have.

 

[Soso694]

For the DIY post-bacc, how many classes exactly should I take? I was thinking a semesters worth, under 12 credit hours?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

For the DIY post-bacc, how many classes exactly should I take? I was thinking a semesters worth, under 12 credit hours?

That depends on how your last 2 semesters have gone. If you have managed to pull off a 3.6+ in your most recent science coursework, then one additional semester of 12-15 credits may suffice. Adcoms on this forum usually say that ~30 consecutive credits of successful coursework is enough to make up for a bad stretch but YMMV.