3.67 cGPA, 29 MCAT, and strong ECs. Help me out here...

[Seatown1]

Hello everybody,

My post is a bit long, but I really appreciate any responses you all can give me. So here it goes:

Washington state resident.
Asian ethnicity (ORM).
Want to get into a U.S. MD program. Would consider a Caribbean MD program (I believe there are a couple accredited schools). Warming up to the idea of DO but still strongly prefer MD.
School: University of Washington.
Graduation - June this year (2014).
Major - Biochemistry
3.67 cGPA, ~3.5 sGPA
Good but not stellar LORs from Professors. Letters should be better from non-Academic writers.
MCAT - 29 (10/9/10 PS/VR/BS).
Will be taking a gap year.

Extra-curriculars:
- 2 years undergraduate assistant in a research lab on campus. Not working on a project of my own, but have been assisting a research scientist in my lab with theirs. I won't be published by the time I graduate, but will give a presentation on my work in a couple months.
- 110 hours of shadowing in medicine, 100 hours in dentistry (I became pre-dental for a few months).
- 2 years volunteering in a local hospital. I was one of the hospital's 10 "team leaders" who oversaw the volunteer program. 200+ hours total.
- 1 year work experience at a start-up my friend's and I created. We finished in the Top 5 in the business-competition at our university.
- 1 years paid work experience. I was essentially a salesman for a luxury automaker.
- 4 years involvement in a non-profit that travels to foreign countries and provides healthcare in rural areas. I am currently the campus President of this non-profit and oversee a team of 40 volunteers.
- 2 years involvement in several pre-medical student organizations on campus. I attained leadership roles in each. Became V.P. of one and President of the other (see above). I'm currently an officer of 2 others.
- 2 years involvement in a couple Southeast Asian student organizations. I also attained leadership roles in each of these.
- 1 year involvement on a cultural dance team on campus. Performed in the greater-Seattle area.
- Nominated for public speaking award by university's Communication's department.
- Potentially work as a Medical Scribe in my gap year. I have a couple offers.

What are my chances? Right now I am most worried about my 29 MCAT score and my sGPA being a little lower than ideal. I am planning on re-taking the MCAT in late May but will only do so if I'm scoring significantly higher on practice exams. Would it look bad if my score only went up 1 or 2 points? Personally I'd be very happy with a 31 but I'm not sure if it looks bad to show just a couple points' increase.

I'm planning on submitting my application in early June and applying broadly, mainly to lower/mid-tier schools. Since I live in Washington State I will mainly be applying to private schools in the east coast and midwest.

I appreciate any responses, thank you.

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[Seatown1]

Btw when I wrote my ECs are "strong" I mean they seem above-average. I think my leadership experience with the Global Health non-profit for the past few years, involvement in a start-up that went places, job as a luxury car salesman, being a lead volunteer in a big hospital, and cultural activities are diverse and all contributed to my passion in medicine in different ways. I don't know how much they would compensate for my 29 MCAT if I decide to apply with that score.

 

[dancingmate]

Firstly, going to any US DO program is better than a Carribean MD. Read SDN and you will realize that getting a residency in the US as a Carribean MD is pretty much impossible. So, I would recommend applying to a bunch of low/mid-tier medical schools coupled with some DO schools (you'll have to do some research on which because I don't know much about the different programs).

You have strong ECs as an applicant but they won't compensate for your MCAT. I would give it all you've got to raise that score to a 32-33. A 29 is not a bad score at all, but with your GPA, you should try your best to improve that score. I had a 29 MCAT the first time I took it, worked really hard for the retake and ended up with a 33. If you can improve your MCAT, you will have a good shot at low tiers and a handful of mid tiers. So, between now and late-May, cut down on the ECs for a bit and focus on your MCAT weaknesses. Use the SDN MCAT prep schedule if you don't have one and continue to take practice tests to evaluate where you stand.

You can submit your application the first week of June to AMCAS to get verified. So, when you are not studying for the MCAT, start working on your personal statement. After you take your MCAT, you can fill in the AMCAS application (shouldn't take more than a couple days) and submit it the first week of June. The earlier you are verified, the earlier you can start working on secondaries. Schools will not evaluate if you have indicated you retook the MCAT. So if you want, you can add 1 school to your AMCAS, get verified (probably will occur mid-late June), get your score back (late June) and then decide which additional schools you want to add based on your results. You will get secondaries flooding in around early July, so you can start pounding them down right away.

Best of luck and hopefully others can provide you additional advice on what to do.

 

[Omppu27]

I think you definitely have a shot if you apply to a wide array of schools and submit day one. Make sure that personal state is well written. You're gonna need to make up for the slightly lower than average GPA and MCAT. Your ECs will definitely help you.

My app is actually going to look quite similar to yours. However, i will be applying to DO schools and will definitely NOT be applying Carib MD. Really sit back and think about why you want to be a doctor.... It's not about the two letters after your name. I was very against DO for the longest time until i realized by MCAT is just not gonna be good enough to only apply US MD.... Like mentioned above, read about here and i think you're ideas about DO will definitely ligthen up.

Best of luck.

 

[Omppu27]

Firstly, going to any US DO program is better than a Carribean MD. Read SDN and you will realize that getting a residency in the US as a Carribean MD is pretty much impossible. So, I would recommend applying to a bunch of low/mid-tier medical schools coupled with some DO schools (you'll have to do some research on which because I don't know much about the different programs).

You have strong ECs as an applicant but they won't compensate for your MCAT. I would give it all you've got to raise that score to a 32-33. A 29 is not a bad score at all, but with your GPA, you should try your best to improve that score. I had a 29 MCAT the first time I took it, worked really hard for the retake and ended up with a 33. If you can improve your MCAT, you will have a good shot at low tiers and a handful of mid tiers. So, between now and late-May, cut down on the ECs for a bit and focus on your MCAT weaknesses. Use the SDN MCAT prep schedule if you don't have one and continue to take practice tests to evaluate where you stand.

You can submit your application the first week of June to AMCAS to get verified. So, when you are not studying for the MCAT, start working on your personal statement. After you take your MCAT, you can fill in the AMCAS application (shouldn't take more than a couple days) and submit it the first week of June. The earlier you are verified, the earlier you can start working on secondaries. Schools will not evaluate if you have indicated you retook the MCAT. So if you want, you can add 1 school to your AMCAS, get verified (probably will occur mid-late June), get your score back (late June) and then decide which additional schools you want to add based on your results. You will get secondaries flooding in around early July, so you can start pounding them down right away.

Best of luck and hopefully others can provide you additional advice on
what to do.

I definitely think ECs can help a lower than average scores/GPA. I understand that OPs scores might not get ADCOMs real excited, but I still think an US MD acceptance is still possible. A retake is not as necessary as you're making it seem IMO.

 

[woltej1]

If you'd honestly consider carib MD over any DO then you need to take a step back and think why you want to be a physician.

Since you're taking a gap year(did you already or is it coming up), I would like to see you retake that MCAT and get a 32+, but only do it if you think it is feasible. It will make up for a very mediocre GPA if you can show decent improvement.

 

[thegypsyqueen]

D.O., son. That's all.

 

[Goro]

The key thing is to apply strategically. MSAR Online is your friend. I suggest avoiding the mid-tiers. I don't recommend re-taking MCAT at this time; see how you fare after an app cycle.

Add some DO schools to your list and forget about Carib diploma mills.


What are my chances? Right now I am most worried about my 29 MCAT score and my sGPA being a little lower than ideal. I am planning on re-taking the MCAT in late May but will only do so if I'm scoring significantly higher on practice exams. Would it look bad if my score only went up 1 or 2 points? Personally I'd be very happy with a 31 but I'm not sure if it looks bad to show just a couple points' increase.

I'm planning on submitting my application in early June and applying broadly, mainly to lower/mid-tier schools. Since I live in Washington State I will mainly be applying to private schools in the east coast and midwest.

 

[Seatown1]

Thanks for the responses everybody. From my recent research I definitely think D.O. is a better option than Caribbean M.D. I must ask however, what is so bad about Caribbean schools? There are only 2-3 that are legitimate like St. George's and Ross. It seems like people who go there get into residencies in the United States. Its difficult to specialize but they still get residencies. I once shadowed a St. George's graduate who is a Cardiologist and is doing just fine. Any input on this would be appreciated.

A couple of you said my GPA is low. Are you referring to my cGPA or sGPA? I think 3.67 is a good pre-med GPA, but my sGPA is not great. It's still in that ~3.5 area.

 

[Seatown1]

If you'd honestly consider carib MD over any DO then you need to take a step back and think why you want to be a physician.

Since you're taking a gap year(did you already or is it coming up), I would like to see you retake that MCAT and get a 32+, but only do it if you think it is feasible. It will make up for a very mediocre GPA if you can show decent improvement.

I will be taking a gap year when I graduate in June 2014.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Thanks for the responses everybody. From my recent research I definitely think D.O. is a better option than Caribbean M.D. I must ask however, what is so bad about Caribbean schools? There are only 2-3 that are legitimate like St. George's and Ross. It seems like people who go there get into residencies in the United States. Its difficult to specialize but they still get residencies. I once shadowed a St. George's graduate who is a Cardiologist and is doing just fine. Any input on this would be appreciated.

A couple of you said my GPA is low. Are you referring to my cGPA or sGPA? I think 3.67 is a good pre-med GPA, but my sGPA is not great. It's still in that ~3.5 area.

From what it seems, in the past it was a bit more feasible coming from Caribbean. With the amount of US MD/DO schools opening, and without a significant increase in funding from the US Govt, I have heard that the opportunity for medical graduates out of the states is going to become even harder...

And all that is assuming that the carib school even lets you sit for boards and such. So you could start and then end up having to sit on the bench with $100+K in debt. Do a real broad search on here and you will find a lot of horror stories (especially from more recent carib grads).

You are in great shape to go to pretty much any DO school you choose. Read up on the DO/MD residency merger and you will find that the whole DO route really is a sweeter deal than people think.

 

[WillburCobb]

Thanks for the responses everybody. From my recent research I definitely think D.O. is a better option than Caribbean M.D. I must ask however, what is so bad about Caribbean schools? There are only 2-3 that are legitimate like St. George's and Ross. It seems like people who go there get into residencies in the United States. Its difficult to specialize but they still get residencies. I once shadowed a St. George's graduate who is a Cardiologist and is doing just fine. Any input on this would be appreciated.

A couple of you said my GPA is low. Are you referring to my cGPA or sGPA? I think 3.67 is a good pre-med GPA, but my sGPA is not great. It's still in that ~3.5 area.

Carib schools have about 0% support for their students and cook their numbers as well. So they may boast about high USMLE pass rates and high match rates, but those numbers don't include the plethora of students who were dismissed for failing one class by 1% or weren't allowed to sit for the USMLE.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Carib schools have about 0% support for their students and cook their numbers as well. So they may boast about high USMLE pass rates and high match rates, but those numbers don't include the plethora of students who were dismissed for failing one class by 1% or weren't allowed to sit for the USMLE.

 

[alpinism]

Thanks for the responses everybody. From my recent research I definitely think D.O. is a better option than Caribbean M.D. I must ask however, what is so bad about Caribbean schools? There are only 2-3 that are legitimate like St. George's and Ross. It seems like people who go there get into residencies in the United States. Its difficult to specialize but they still get residencies. I once shadowed a St. George's graduate who is a Cardiologist and is doing just fine. Any input on this would be appreciated.

A couple of you said my GPA is low. Are you referring to my cGPA or sGPA? I think 3.67 is a good pre-med GPA, but my sGPA is not great. It's still in that ~3.5 area.

Even the best caribbean schools (Ross/SGU) have horrible attrition rates. As a rough estimate they take around 1,200+ new students every year but only match about 700 (<60%). In addition, the vast majority of those residency matches are in primary care (FM/IM) at rural community programs with very poor training. As more US MD and DO schools open up and start to graduate classes, the match rate will go down even further (likely <50% in the next 4 yrs).

DO is a much better option. If you do well on the boards you can essentially go into any specialty including some top programs in great locations.

 

[whizplusdum]

My stats are almost the same as yours, 29 on the MCAT (but I have taken it 3 times). My family doctor, WHO IS A USMG, interned at Standford and teaches at UCSF ( I listed his stats in case people wanted to bash me about Carb schools) told me that I would be competitive in applying to DO and Caribbean schools like SGU and Ross. He said that the local best anesthesiologist came from SGU. I have had 3 friends tell me that they want to go to SGU and do intern med or pediatrics. I also had a friend ask her husband who is also a USMG tell me that if I do internal medicine, family practice, etc (the non competitive resid) I will be fine. It is only when I decided to specialize, where I would be scrood. I have a friend who is currently in Touro indicate that you should not go to Caribbean schools mainly due to the hierarchy (USMG will look down on DO graduates and USMD and DO will look down on IMG.) That being said. most of SDN has indicated Carb should be the last resort. I am at the time of my life where I just want to move on. I have been doing research for 3 years at UCB. I am just tired of waiting and taking my chances of trying to get into a USMD. I will be applying extremely broadly this round. I will apply to SGU, Ross (the better 2 Carb schools), Touro, Arizona, and West V. (3 good DO Schools) assuming I can get a letter from a DO, and lastly a lot of low ranking med schools. In the end, I just want to practice medicine. My cousin's fiance has two brothers who graduated from Carb schools, they both attended UCB. They never regretted their decision. They make roughly 200k each, both working for Kaiser. .

But assuming if my friends get into SGU, I will most likely go there because I want to move on with my life. The only school I would wait for is UCD, but I doubt I would get in. I have read forums dating back from 2006 where someone got into UCD with similar stats. But it has almost been a decade and I know times have changed.

However OP, there is nothing wrong with working upon gradation from undergraduate. I have learned a lot working at UCB, more than I imagined. The trick is, if you do wait 1 year, make you sure do something active. I have a friend who has been graduated for 2 years already. His GPA is a 3.9 and his Mcat is 32+, and he has not been active after graduation. He is unemployed and the reason he did not apply for the 2013 cycle was because he got lazy.....My gf has a friend who applied in 2013, got a few secondaries, but she did not bother to complete it and so now she is reapplying this round (I dont know her situation, but my gf has indicated that her mother does emotionally abuse her, and living at home and being unemployed does not help her situation)
That being said, my advice to you is to try your best on the next MCAT retake, but I will warn you that you can score lower. My third retake was the highest score, however I scored a 28 on my second, but my physical portion dropped 2 points on the third, killing my 30+ score =(.
My other advice to you is that if you want to move on with your life and plan on not specializing, there is nothing wrong with going to a Carb school. But if you do decide to specialize, the consensus from SDN has been USMG->DO->Carb. But from what I had observed from SGU brochure and talking to alumni is that they do have good residency matches, a significant amount are categorical which is very good. They also recently signed a large contract with Kaiser, explaining the new Cali spots opening up for their residency programs.
My last advice to you is, Do not believe everything you hear from other pre-meds. As most of us adults were once an arrogant pre-med, I have regretted my undergraduate ways. I use to be arrogant at UCD with my high GPA, and scoring the highest in my class of 150 plus students. However, after graduating and working, you will realize what is important in life. Pursing your dreams, having a good job with a decent pay, and starting a family. Although MD schools are known to be money sinks. No matter where you graduate, as long as you get into a MD school, work hard, rock your USMLE and be realistic on your residencies you will have a good job, even if you graduate from the Carb. It is true the the attrition rate for Carb are higher, but at the end of the day, it is really the student who decides to focus on studying or relaxing on a island. You should find what motivates you. I am motivated by the fact that this has always been my goal, I know that even if I grad from SGU, i will be making enough to be happy to start a family, go volunteer my time in 3rd world countries, and just help people.

Sorry for the long tangent, I just couldn't stop.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

My stats are almost the same as yours, 29 on the MCAT (but I have taken it 3 times). My family doctor, WHO IS A USMG, interned at Standford and teaches at UCSF ( I listed his stats in case people wanted to bash me about Carb schools) told me that I would be competitive in applying to DO and Caribbean schools like SGU and Ross. He said that the local best anesthesiologist came from SGU. I have had 3 friends tell me that they want to go to SGU and do intern med or pediatrics. I also had a friend ask her husband who is also a USMG tell me that if I do internal medicine, family practice, etc (the non competitive resid) I will be fine. It is only when I decided to specialize, where I would be scrood. I have a friend who is currently in Touro indicate that you should not go to Caribbean schools mainly due to the hierarchy (USMG will look down on DO graduates and USMD and DO will look down on IMG.) That being said. most of SDN has indicated Carb should be the last resort. I am at the time of my life where I just want to move on. I have been doing research for 3 years at UCB. I am just tired of waiting and taking my chances of trying to get into a USMD. I will be applying extremely broadly this round. I will apply to SGU, Ross (the better 2 Carb schools), Touro, Arizona, and West V. (3 good DO Schools) assuming I can get a letter from a DO, and lastly a lot of low ranking med schools. In the end, I just want to practice medicine. My cousin's fiance has two brothers who graduated from Carb schools, they both attended UCB. They never regretted their decision. They make roughly 200k each, both working for Kaiser. .

But assuming if my friends get into SGU, I will most likely go there because I want to move on with my life. The only school I would wait for is UCD, but I doubt I would get in. I have read forums dating back from 2006 where someone got into UCD with similar stats. But it has almost been a decade and I know times have changed.

However OP, there is nothing wrong with working upon gradation from undergraduate. I have learned a lot working at UCB, more than I imagined. The trick is, if you do wait 1 year, make you sure do something active. I have a friend who has been graduated for 2 years already. His GPA is a 3.9 and his Mcat is 32+, and he has not been active after graduation. He is unemployed and the reason he did not apply for the 2013 cycle was because he got lazy.....My gf has a friend who applied in 2013, got a few secondaries, but she did not bother to complete it and so now she is reapplying this round (I dont know her situation, but my gf has indicated that her mother does emotionally abuse her, and living at home and being unemployed does not help her situation)
That being said, my advice to you is to try your best on the next MCAT retake, but I will warn you that you can score lower. My third retake was the highest score, however I scored a 28 on my second, but my physical portion dropped 2 points on the third, killing my 30+ score =(.
My other advice to you is that if you want to move on with your life and plan on not specializing, there is nothing wrong with going to a Carb school. But if you do decide to specialize, the consensus from SDN has been USMG->DO->Carb. But from what I had observed from SGU brochure and talking to alumni is that they do have good residency matches, a significant amount are categorical which is very good. They also recently signed a large contract with Kaiser, explaining the new Cali spots opening up for their residency programs.
My last advice to you is, Do not believe everything you hear from other pre-meds. As most of us adults were once an arrogant pre-med, I have regretted my undergraduate ways. I use to be arrogant at UCD with my high GPA, and scoring the highest in my class of 150 plus students. However, after graduating and working, you will realize what is important in life. Pursing your dreams, having a good job with a decent pay, and starting a family. Although MD schools are known to be money sinks. No matter where you graduate, as long as you get into a MD school, work hard, rock your USMLE and be realistic on your residencies you will have a good job, even if you graduate from the Carb. It is true the the attrition rate for Carb are higher, but at the end of the day, it is really the student who decides to focus on studying or relaxing on a island. You should find what motivates you. I am motivated by the fact that this has always been my goal, I know that even if I grad from SGU, i will be making enough to be happy to start a family, go volunteer my time in 3rd world countries, and just help people.

Sorry for the long tangent, I just couldn't stop.

dude... your problem is even after all of this time you have still not learned your lesson. You need to be applying to more schools. THAT is the reason why you are not getting in and having to resort to Carib... Even with your second MCAT score, that nor your GPA is keeping you out. You arent applying to like any schools.

Also, just because one doc and a couple of your buddies say Caribbean is a good choice, doesnt make it a good choice.

IF you even get through the first two years without being booted out for some random reason (such as missing a letter grade by 1%)
THEN you have to deal with them letting you even sit for boards (which they dont let a ton of people do - so you are out two years and 100+K, so this definitely does not help you seeing as you are already older and wanting to move on. Try wasting more years and money just to be shown the door.)
THEN if you even pass your boards which they were generous to let you take, you will struggle to find secure rotations for third and fourth years. It isnt just people who "lose their focus on the island." The schools freaking just dont give a crap about you and will not support you for your clinical years.
THEN IF you graduate you then will be applying to residencies in the US which is already closing its doors to IMGs. In the past it was a good option, for sure, there is no doubting that, and sure there are some exceptions (such as that Anesthesiologist you pointed out). But based on the future number of US MD/DO graduates being produced, they are squeezing out Caribbean and other international students - this is a fact. Unless the US government magically decides to open up a ton of residency spots, then you have what used to already be a residency bottle neck, being turned into one of those little tiny red straws that you use to stir coffee. THAT is what you will have to squeeze through to get a residency in the US as an IMG.

So you can roll the dice and do that route and possible have wasted even more years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Or you can be patient, apply broadly to more than 3 DO schools, and cater your application for AACOMAS and osteopathic medicine, and become a US medical graduate.

All I am saying.

To the OP, your stats are fine. Apply to 10+ DO schools and cater your application (such as getting a DO letter) to AACOMAS and you will be a doctor.

 

[Seatown1]

To the OP, your stats are fine. Apply to 10+ DO schools and cater your application (such as getting a DO letter) to AACOMAS and you will be a doctor.

I know my stats are pretty strong for DO programs, but what are your thoughts on M.D.?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I know my stats are pretty strong for DO programs, but what are your thoughts on M.D.?

Take Goro's advice above. He is significantly more knowledgeable than I am. The only advice I could comfortably give is to apply to 10+ DO schools and your state MDs and to not apply to Caribbean, thats about all the advice I am good for heh.

People absolutely get into MD schools with your stats. You can look up the stats yourself, there are some nice graphs and such and you can see where you fall.

So I would say why not play the whole field and apply to a mix? Select 5-10 MD schools where your stats comfortably fit and where you fit their mission. Then select 5-10 DO schools with the same thing in mind. Strictly based on the stats and anecdotes from reading through these forums for a while, that would not seem unreasonable to do.

Some people say "I applied to 30! schools and I never got in, even though my stats are awesome!" yea well that is because they applied to schools way out of their range.... Use the MSAR and dig through this site and you can find a really solid idea of where you would want to go and actually have a shot at.

 

[Seatown1]

Take Goro's advice above. He is significantly more knowledgeable than I am. The only advice I could comfortably give is to apply to 10+ DO schools and your state MDs and to not apply to Caribbean, thats about all the advice I am good for heh.

Thanks for the quick reply. I've been studying for the re-take but haven't made the progress I've wanted to because I'm trying to focus on my classes, personal statement, attaining letters of recommendation, etc. at the same time. My practice scores haven't changed. I'm seriously considering just going with the MCAT score I have and maybe re-taking it later this year for the next application cycle (if I don't get in this time around).

 

[solitarius]

So basically, I think the odds are marginal to less favorable for an MD admit. If it did happen, there's a strong chance you're moving somewhere east.

Put in some effort for a MCAT retake, and then take a practice AAMC test. If it's below 35, shelve the retake. Getting low 30s on a practice test is within range of a 29, sorry to say. Come to terms w/ DO and apply to some less competitive MDs.