3.74c; 3.68s...507&514...ORM Male/MA res

[flashpoint7]

Hello, looking for a little assistance in finalizing a list.

507 on April MCAT and 514 in June (both pretty balanced)....Verified second week in July...

Biochemistry major at top 25 LAC, graduated in May...No red flags and no grades lower than B...Even trend throughout...Strong cmte letter (I think!)...Very strong PS (I'm told!)...

4 year NCAA D3 Athlete (consistently nationally ranked team)...

One summer doing clinical research at Harvard-affiliated hospital (no pubs)...

One summer as intern at start-up biotech company doing lab work/research (no pubs)...

Active research subject/patient past 5 years in ongoing clinical trials research at Harvard-affiliated hospitals...

TA for Bio and Genetics...

80+ hours shadowing (Emergency Medicine, Cardiology, Family Medicine, Psychiatry)...60+ hours tutoring at local elementary school....60+ hours volunteering at local ER (rural)...

For gap year, starting medical scribe position next week, and also just started volunteering 12 hours a week at nursing care facility and will be tutoring kids at local homeless shelter beginning in September...

As noted above, I am a Mass resident (life-long) and also have strong ties to Ohio, NC, and KY, in that order.

I've already submitted app and received most secondaries for the following:

UMass
Tufts
UVM
Albany
NYMC
Quinnipiac
GWU
Jefferson
Wake Forest
VCU
Penn State
Einstein
Cincinnati (legacy)

So here's my question. I want to add at least 8-10 schools, and I'm having trouble deciding what mix of additional schools makes the most sense for me. Mostly more lower tiers or go heavier towards mid-tier? The ones currently on my list for consideration are Temple, Drexel, EVMS, Georgetown, Tulane, SLU, Indiana or Iowa, Louisville or UK, USF Morsani, Wright St, Ohio State, Emory, Rochester, Dartmouth (I know but in my region), maybe BU, and maybe a flyer on UNC (strong ties to state and UNC legacy).

Any thoughts, and are there any glaring ones missing in terms of my profile? What do you think are my chances overall?

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[GrapesofRath]

Exhibit 6 million on why not to take the MCAT until you are ready to get your best score possible. Your mid tier chances would clearly be better with just the 514 on your record.

On your current list you were verified for, everything is fine except for perhaps Einstein and Cincy.

As for the schools you are currently thinking about these are the ones to go ahead with: Temple, Drexel, EVMS, Georgetown, Tulane, Saint Louis. Wright State if your ties to Ohio are strong is a solid option also.

As for the mid tiers its just very hard to say given what schools say publicly about re-taken MCATs and how they actually perceive them are two different things as gyngyn talks about alot. You can maybe give it a go at Rochester, Emory and Boston U but its a stretch. The thing is that even with the retake a 514 is still a 33 which is a bit low for these schools with 35 medians. The athlete factor is a wild card here but boy the first MCAT score does hurt to some extent.

Call them and see what their policy is for MCAT re-takes. If they explicitly tell you we only look at the highest score or the most recent one that'll be something to take into consideration as well. I don't think I would bother with the ones I didn't list here that you said you were considering like Iowa, Ohio State, USF etc.

 

[steelersfan1243]

Exhibit 6 million on why not to take the MCAT until you are ready to get your best score possible. Your mid tier chances would clearly be better with just the 514 on your record.

On your current list you were verified for, everything is fine except for perhaps Einstein and Cincy.

As for the schools you are currently thinking about these are the ones to go ahead with: Temple, Drexel, EVMS, Georgetown, Tulane, Saint Louis. Wright State if your ties to Ohio are strong is a solid option also.

As for the mid tiers its just very hard to say given what schools say publicly about re-taken MCATs and how they actually perceive them are two different things as gyngyn talks about alot. You can maybe give it a go at Rochester, Emory and Boston U but its a stretch. The thing is that even with the retake a 514 is still a 33 which is a bit low for these schools with 35 medians. The athlete factor is a wild card here but boy the first MCAT score does hurt to some extent.

Call them and see what their policy is for MCAT re-takes. If they explicitly tell you we only look at the highest score or the most recent one that'll be something to take into consideration as well. I don't think I would bother with the ones I didn't list here that you said you were considering like Iowa, Ohio State, USF etc.

You frequently are a bit unnecessarily harsh

This was the new MCAT, there is only one practice test offered by AAMC, its hard to know whether or not he was performing at his best come April. It could be very well that the practice test was extremely easy compared to the real test and he gaged his ability wrong. No need to rub the retake in his face three times. Just explain its hard to interpret how schools will look at the retake, but he should play it safer than the average applicant with a 33.

No one plans to retake.

 

[GrapesofRath]

You frequently are a bit unnecessarily harsh

This was the new MCAT, there is only one practice test offered by AAMC, its hard to know whether or not he was performing at his best come April. It could be very well that the practice test was extremely easy compared to the real test and he gaged his ability wrong. No need to rub the retake in his face three times. Just explain its hard to interpret how schools will look at the retake, but he should play it safer than the average applicant with a 33.

No one plans to retake.

Reasons are irrelevant. The its a new MCAT so you get more slack for taking when you aren't ready isn't going to work with ADCOMs.

OP is fine for lower tier MDs as is. That's a great accomplishment in itself. Middle ones will be a stretch but might be worth the app. A 30 retaken to a 33 is below the norm for Rochester/Emory/Boston U. Perhaps it's worth the application but if the options are a) be unrealistic and speak fluff and have the OP be in for a rude awakening this cycle or b) tell the OP where s/he actually stands I think any reasonable person would opt for the latter.

Yeah, if we are being honest I shouldn't have prefaced by saying "reason 6 million you shouldn't take the MCAT when ready" that might have been a tad over the top but the bottom line is no ADCOM gives a damn how many available practice tests were available. Really I prefaced it because of the OP's specific question; should they go low tier or heavier toward the mid tier. The re-taken MCAT is one of the main issues for why they should probably go more lower tier than mid tier. No reason to be overly sensitive and childishly accuse people of "rubbing it in 3 times" I'd like to think we're all a little past calling honest advice as "rubbing it in".

 

[Banco]

Nice MCAT improvement, and good application overall! You already have a solid amount of realistic options, so I think you can add some mid tiers now.

From your list I would say keep: Temple, Drexel, EVMS, SLU, Tulane, Emory, Rochester, Dartmouth, BU. Depending on how strong your connections are you could add Wright State as well.

The athlete factor has the potential sway things in your favor for some reaches.

 

[steelersfan1243]

Reasons are irrelevant. The its a new MCAT so you get more slack for taking when you aren't ready isn't going to work with ADCOMs.

OP is fine for lower tier MDs as is. That's a great accomplishment in itself. Middle ones will be a stretch but might be worth the app. A 30 retaken to a 33 is below the norm for Rochester/Emory/Boston U. Perhaps it's worth the application but if the options are a) be unrealistic and speak fluff and have the OP be in for a rude awakening this cycle or b) tell the OP where s/he actually stands I think any reasonable person would opt for the latter.

Yeah, if we are being honest I shouldn't have prefaced by saying "reason 6 million you shouldn't take the MCAT when ready" that might have been a tad over the top but the bottom line is no ADCOM gives a damn how many available practice tests were available. Really I prefaced it because of the OP's specific question; should they go low tier or heavier toward the mid tier. The re-taken MCAT is one of the main issues for why they should probably go more lower tier than mid tier. No reason to be overly sensitive and childishly accuse people of "rubbing it in 3 times" I'd like to think we're all a little past calling honest advice as "rubbing it in".

Ehh, I am usually reluctant to ever argue something over the internet as its most cases pointless, but:

1. I mention the lack of practice tests not because OP should think ADCOMS will overlook the retake, but rather you understand why OP "did not take MCAT until he was sure he would get the best score possible." As said before, he might of aced the practice test and thought "he would get the best score possible"

2. Everyone appreciates honest advice, however there are ways to deliver it properly. Saying, "OP it is likely ADCOMS may not look favorably towards the second MCAT, so you should play it on the safer side of an applicant who has 33, meaning applying to more low-tiers" has the same direct meaning that you conveyed in a much harsher tone. This would be analogous to tutoring someone and straying away from terms such as "this is obvious," which just serves to put down the student if its not obvious.

I write these things because I see you often help people in WAMC with sound advice, but often at times are harsh for no reason. There is a way to deliver honest advice, where the OP does not feel like **** for retaking a MCAT which he or she may not had anticipated.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Ehh, I am usually reluctant to ever argue something over the internet as its most cases pointless, but:

1. I mention the lack of practice tests not because OP should think ADCOMS will overlook the retake, but rather you understand why OP "did not take MCAT until he was sure he would get the best score possible." As said before, he might of aced the practice test and thought "he would get the best score possible"

2. Everyone appreciates honest advice, however there are ways to deliver it properly. Saying, "OP it is likely ADCOMS may not look favorably towards the second MCAT, so you should play it on the safer side of an applicant who has 33, meaning applying to more low-tiers" has the same direct meaning that you conveyed in a much harsher tone. This would be analogous to tutoring someone and straying away from terms such as "this is obvious," which just serves to put down the student if its not obvious.

I write these things because I see you often help people in WAMC with sound advice, but often at times are harsh for no reason. There is a way to deliver honest advice, where the OP does not feel like **** for retaking a MCAT which he or she may not had anticipated.

Like you said arguing over the internet serves no purpose and isn't going to get anybody anywhere. We can agree to disagree on whatever issue you have.

 

[Faha]

Your initial list is good. You could add BU, Temple, Drexel, Georgetown, Tulane, SLU. Most of the other schools you are considering are state schools that give a strong preference to their own residents and accept few OOS applicants with your stats. I suggest also adding Oakland Beaumont, Western Michigan, Rosalind Franklin, Loyola and Creighton which are schools where you could receive an interview with your stats.

 

[flashpoint7]

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

Yeah, I was pretty devastated about the 507. I definitely thought I was ready. I wasn't expecting a home run, but I was confident about hitting a minimum of a ~32, and with any luck I thought I might pull out a score in the 33/34ish range. I felt I needed the re-take to get from borderline decent candidate for lower-tier MD programs to being a more solidly viable candidate for lower-tiers and possibly a few mid-tiers. Now I'm nervous about whether the 514 is going to help me at all. I do have a few preferences, but I'll be thrilled to get into any US MD program. I feel like I am a very solid average to slightly above average candidate aside from the MCAT, and I have a pretty good story which I can't go into details about here. A couple of physicians who should know told me my PS is in the top 2% of statements they have seen (but maybe they were just being nice haha). And of course I've read here that PS's don't do that much for you anyway.

I have considered the Chicago schools but my instinct has been that my chances are better at the lower tiers more in my region, and those Chicago schools seem extremely low yield. My strongest ties are MA, OH and NC.

Is Ohio State out of the question if I have strong ties to Ohio? I also was looking at Indiana and Iowa because they seem to have a fair number of seats for OOS students. I have looked at UK and Louisville because of ties to KY and they don't seem to get a ton of apps. I know my chances for Rochester, Emory, Dartmouth aren't great, but I was thinking of throwing an app to Dartmouth just because it's in my region and I like the area.

Last question. Would my list really be that different if I had hit a 514 on the first go round?

@Goro @gyngyn any thoughts?

 

[Goro]

If you ties like "my mom lives there now, I consider those real.

If you mean ties like " spent the first 18 years of my life there", or "I went to college there", then those are honest ties.

Even if school avg the MCAT scores, I can think of at least a dozen MD schools (and ALL DO schools) where you're competitive. Let's see your list!

 

[flashpoint7]

Thanks Goro! Yes, my ties to OH and NC are as you describe and I easily qualify as legit MA resident. List is above in first post, but here is a new version...

Already applied....

UMass
Tufts
UVM
Albany
NYMC
Quinnipiac
GWU
Jefferson
Wake Forest
VCU
Penn State
Einstein
Cincinnati (legacy)

Likely to add....

Georgetown
Drexel and/or Temple
EVMS
Tulane (maybe)
SLU (maybe)
UK or Louisville (maybe)
Indiana or Iowa (maybe)

Wish list/wondering....

Ohio State
Rochester
Emory
Dartmouth (or Brown)
UNC (legacy)
BU

P.S. If I manage to get in UMass that will be tough to beat because of $$$...

 

[Banco]

To me it honestly makes more sense to add Emory, Dartmouth, BU, Rochester before you add Indiana/Iowa/UK/Louisville, since they are state schools. You don't need them, and you already have a solid amount of realistic options, so you can afford to add some reach schools. Your shot at UMass is good.

 

[flashpoint7]

Thanks @Banco! Anyone else? @Goro?

 

[md-2020]

The athlete factor has the potential sway things in your favor for some reaches.

Don't count on the athlete factor for D3 sports (no offense OP).

I don't think Emory and Dartmouth are good choices, as Dartmouth prefers non-trads and has much higher avg. stats than OP, and Emory is a significant reach as well. I agree that the aforementioned state schools are not worth it, however. My suggestions of schools to add:

Temple
Jefferson
G'town
Hofstra
Rosy Franklin
Rush
Loyola
Vermont

 

[flashpoint7]

Thanks @md-2020....I already had Jefferson and UVM is my list of "already applied to" and Temple/Drexel and G'town in my "likely to add" list. In a post above I explained my hesitation about the Chicago schools being so low yield.

In addition to (already applied) UMass, Tufts, UVM, Albany, NYMC, Quinnipiac, GWU, Jefferson, Wake, VCU, Penn State, Einstein, Cincy...I am planning to add a few more in the G'town, EVMS, Temple/Drexel category, which will get me to 17-18 schools. If I'm shooting for 22-23 apps total, I'm wondering if I really need the protection of even more lower tiers, or are there 4-5 moderate reaches that make some sense.

I appreciate your comment about D3 athletics, but there are reasons related to my overall story that lead me to think I will get anywhere from a modest to a moderate boost from that.

 

[Lamel]

Since you have 17-18 realistic choices already you can definitely add 4-5 reaches.

 

[md-2020]

Thanks @md-2020....I already had Jefferson and UVM is my list of "already applied to" and Temple/Drexel and G'town in my "likely to add" list. In a post above I explained my hesitation about the Chicago schools being so low yield.

In addition to (already applied) UMass, Tufts, UVM, Albany, NYMC, Quinnipiac, GWU, Jefferson, Wake, VCU, Penn State, Einstein, Cincy...I am planning to add a few more in the G'town, EVMS, Temple/Drexel category, which will get me to 17-18 schools. If I'm shooting for 22-23 apps total, I'm wondering if I really need the protection of even more lower tiers, or are there 4-5 moderate reaches that make some sense.

I appreciate your comment about D3 athletics, but there are reasons related to my overall story that lead me to think I will get anywhere from a modest to a moderate boost from that.

Well if you're concerned about yield...what about G'town and GW??

 

[flashpoint7]

Excellent question, and I doubt I have a good answer. I'll give it a shot.

1) Honestly, most of the schools seem low-yield with tough odds, and then some seem really, really low yield. That's partly why I was wondering about OOS schools like UK or Louisville that by comparison don't have tons of apps and where I have some ties, or a place like Indiana that has a huge class.

2) I know I probably have to pick some of the really, really low yields, so since I've already picked GWU and G'town seems like I should limit the number in that category.

3) What your question really made me think about is that I'm more comfortable with the East Coast, even though I know Chicago is a fantastic city.

4) And, finally, will lower-tier, low yield schools be very likely to accept candidates out of region that they might assume will have similar choices in region?

 

[flashpoint7]

Excellent question, and I doubt I have a good answer. I'll give it a shot.

1) Honestly, most of the schools seem low-yield with tough odds, and then some seem really, really low yield. That's partly why I was wondering about OOS schools like UK or Louisville that by comparison don't have tons of apps and where I have some ties, or a place like Indiana that has a huge class.

2) I know I probably have to pick some of the really, really low yields, so since I've already picked GWU and G'town seems like I should limit the number in that category.

3) What your question really made me think about is that I'm more comfortable with the East Coast, even though I know Chicago is a fantastic city.

4) And, finally, will lower-tier, low yield schools be very likely to accept candidates out of region that they might assume will have similar choices in region?

@md-2020, thoughts? ^^^^

 

[md-2020]

Excellent question, and I doubt I have a good answer. I'll give it a shot.

1) Honestly, most of the schools seem low-yield with tough odds, and then some seem really, really low yield. That's partly why I was wondering about OOS schools like UK or Louisville that by comparison don't have tons of apps and where I have some ties, or a place like Indiana that has a huge class.

2) I know I probably have to pick some of the really, really low yields, so since I've already picked GWU and G'town seems like I should limit the number in that category.

3) What your question really made me think about is that I'm more comfortable with the East Coast, even though I know Chicago is a fantastic city.

4) And, finally, will lower-tier, low yield schools be very likely to accept candidates out of region that they might assume will have similar choices in region?

Fair reason for #2, though I personally love the Windy City.

For #3, the thing about crapshoots like GW and G'town is that there is literally no rhyme or reason as to who they accept....they get so many apps that their adcoms don't have to put any in-depth thought into their II's. My bet is they see your stats, and if you're good enough, make a gut call w/o considering those factors at all.

If UMass is your top choice you should be very likely there, so don't worry too much.

 

[flashpoint7]

Update and looking for maybe 3-4 schools to add.

Applied and complete -- UMass, UVM, Quinnipiac, Albany, NYMC, GWU, Georgetown, Tufts, Jefferson, Drexel, Penn State, Rochester

Applied and finishing secondaries (hope to finish all in next 7-10 days or before Labor Day) -- Temple, VCU, Wake Forest, Einstein, Hofstra, EVMS, Cincy (legacy), Emory

That puts me at 20 schools assuming I complete all remaining secondaries. By my count I have 15 lower tier targets (although I know a good number of those are very low yield) with reaches of Rochester, Emory, Cincy, Einstein and maybe Hofstra.

Am I pretty safe as far as lower tier targets and can add a few more reaches, or should I add more lower tiers?

Wondering about BU (in-state), Ohio St (strong ties), Dartmouth (regional and have bit of a story but not really non-trad), Case or Pitt (long odds but is one a better chance than the other?), Indiana (huge class and take high number OOS), UK (ties to state and love my Wildcats!). I keep crossing UK off especially with super-high tuition, but then I keep thinking relatively low number of apps is attractive and they take a decent number OOS. Or, should I just add Tulane, SLU, and Wright St and call it a day?

Thanks for any thoughts!