MD 3.7cGPA, 3.6sGPA, 90-100% prelim June MCAT, no volunteering

[intenseFACES]

Hi everyone, I'm a first-time, traditional MD applicant in my first gap year and I'm having some trouble deciding on which schools to apply to.

cGPA: 3.71
sGPA: 3.67
June MCAT: 90-100% total, 85-100% in psych/soc, bio/biochem, chem/phys, 76-91% CARS
Lots of research, no pubs
4 different music ECs
120 hours of shadowing 2 different physicians
150 hours working in hospital store
~1000 hours of working out, mostly in the last 2 years
3 stellar LOR
No volunteering unless early research volunteering can be classified as non clinical


I'm planning on applying to ~20 schools with a pretty even spread of admissions stats, probably more mid-tier, because I'm worried that my lack of volunteering and ECs are going to hurt my application.

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[Banco]

Yeah, you should target schools that appreciate research; generally those schools are looking for an MCAT of 518+ (top 25), which you may accomplish. Lack of volunteering will hurt, but at least you have clinical experience through shadowing.

Start volunteering now and maybe you can send it as an update later.

 

[Goro]

Chances are ZERO anywhere without the volunteering.

Hi everyone, I'm a first-time, traditional MD applicant in my first gap year and I'm having some trouble deciding on which schools to apply to.

cGPA: 3.72 (AMCAS)
sGPA: 3.6 (higher if counting neuroscience courses as BCPM instead of psych)
June MCAT: 90-100% total, 85-100% in psych/soc, bio/biochem, chem/phys, 76-91% CARS
~4000 hours of research in 5 different labs, 1 awarded fellowship + funding, 3 posters and no pubs :/
Performed in 1-4 campus musical ensembles (symphonic, jazz, marching) every semester of undergrad, section leader/soloist on multiple instruments
120 hours of shadowing 3 different physicians (80 hours and 2 physicians during senior year of high school)
100 hours working as a gift shop clerk in a hospital
~1000 hours of working out, mostly in the last 2 years <--LOL gonna include this because I'm strapped for activities
At least 1, maybe more, stellar LOR (3 research, 1 music, 1 science class)
No volunteering unless early research volunteering can be classified as non clinical

I was planning on becoming a PhD until this year, but at this point I have no doubts that I want primarily pursue medicine. However, I still love research and plan on doing it in some form throughout my life.

MI resident

I'm planning on applying to ~20 schools with a pretty even spread of admissions stats, probably more mid-tier, because I'm worried that my lack of volunteering and ECs are going to hurt my application. Also applying to more research-intensive schools. I'm applying to at least every MI school.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Chances are ZERO anywhere without the volunteering.

Wait a year. You're wasting your time otherwise.

 

[intenseFACES]

While it would definitely be harder to demonstrate that I am a kind, compassionate, and altruistic person without volunteering, zero anywhere seems a little extreme based on MSAR stats and anecdotes (sampling & response biases?). Have people historically been unable to demonstrate those traits without volunteering? Are there other weaknesses in my app that make a lack of volunteering irredeemable? You guys/gals think it's most likely that I'll get in nowhere this cycle?

 

[efle]

While it would definitely be harder to demonstrate that I am a kind, compassionate, and altruistic person without volunteering, zero anywhere seems a little extreme based on MSAR stats and anecdotes (sampling & response biases?). Have people historically been unable to demonstrate those traits without volunteering? Are there other weaknesses in my app that make a lack of volunteering irredeemable? You guys/gals think it's most likely that I'll get in nowhere this cycle?

The majority of accepted people have clinical volunteering according to the MSAR, and those that get in without clinical usually have extensive nonclinical volunteering instead. You probably could get in to a couple low end schools if your MCAT comes out high enough, but yeah the Top 20 or so schools that are heavy on research are selective enough to just ignore people with zero volunteerism.

 

[GrapesofRath]

The majority of accepted people have clinical volunteering according to the MSAR, and those that get in without clinical usually have extensive nonclinical volunteering instead. You probably could get in to a couple low end schools if your MCAT comes out high enough, but yeah the Top 20 or so schools that are heavy on research are selective enough to just ignore people with zero volunteerism.

There's no school interested enough in taking someone who literally has zero volunteering on their record. Low tier. High tier. Any tier. Even more so for someone with solid stats but ones that aren't top notch.

To the OP wait a year, there could be far worse fates. If you are looking for good news neuroscience classes do count as BCPM classes if they are under your school's neuroscience department so you can expect a higher science GPA when in fact you do apply.

 

[Banco]

There's no school interested enough in taking someone who literally has zero volunteering on their record. Low tier. High tier. Any tier. Even more so for someone with solid stats but ones that aren't top notch.

To the OP wait a year, there could be far worse fates. If you are looking for good news neuroscience classes do count as BCPM classes if they are under your school's neuroscience department so you can expect a higher science GPA when in fact you do apply.

The majority of accepted people have clinical volunteering according to the MSAR, and those that get in without clinical usually have extensive nonclinical volunteering instead. You probably could get in to a couple low end schools if your MCAT comes out high enough, but yeah the Top 20 or so schools that are heavy on research are selective enough to just ignore people with zero volunteerism.

I'd like to play devil's advocate here.

The goal of clinical volunteering is mainly to gain clinical exposure, but this is not the only way to do it. Clinical volunteering is mainly a selfish activity, and I think many schools count it as "clinical experience" more so than traditional volunteering; LizzyM has stated that some adcoms don't like to double dip in clinical volunteering hours as "volunteering". So if OP has clinical exposure through extensive shadowing, it can be argued that he has no need for clinical volunteering.

Secondly, on MSAR rates for non-clinical volunteering are 60-70% for most schools; meaning 30-40% of matriculants have no non-clinical volunteering, and if they got their clinical experience from a job/shadowing, they possibly have 0 volunteering total.

Overall I think volunteering somewhere will help OPs app quite a bit. But I don't think his case is hopeless, especially with a possible very high MCAT. Top 20s are a stretch obviously, as they are for anyone.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'd like to play devil's advocate here.

The goal of clinical volunteering is mainly to gain clinical exposure, but this is not the only way to do it. Clinical volunteering is mainly a selfish activity, and I think many schools count it as "clinical experience" more so than traditional volunteering; LizzyM has stated that some adcoms don't like to double dip in clinical volunteering hours as "volunteering". So if OP has clinical exposure through extensive shadowing, it can be argued that he has no need for clinical volunteering.

Secondly, on MSAR rates for non-clinical volunteering are 60-70% for most schools; meaning 30-40% of matriculants have no non-clinical volunteering, and if they got their clinical experience from a job/shadowing, they possibly have 0 volunteering total.

Overall I think volunteering somewhere will help OPs app quite a bit. But I don't think his case is hopeless, especially with a possible very high MCAT. Top 20s are a stretch obviously, as they are for anyone.

There's a difference between not doing clinical volunteering and not doing ANY volunteering in any form at all. The first doesn't stop many people from getting into med school. The second is a much bigger and entirely different issue.

 

[Banco]

There's a difference between not doing clinical volunteering and not doing ANY volunteering in any form at all. The first doesn't stop many people from getting into med school. The second is a much bigger and entirely different issue.

I understand, but there is a possibility that there are matriculants at many schools with 0 total volunteering (as I explained based off the rough stats from MSAR). The only way to be sure is to cross reference those with no clinical or non-clinical volunteering and see if they lack both, but we don't have that data.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I understand, but there is a possibility that there are matriculants at many schools with 0 total volunteering (as I explained based off the rough stats from MSAR). The only way to be sure is to cross reference those with no clinical or non-clinical volunteering and see if they lack both, but we don't have that data.

The fact an ADCOM came on here and just blatantly said "no volunteering--no shot" without any hesitations or qualifiers should be pretty revealing as to what the answer would be about lacking both types of volunteering and how applicants fare.

Best case scenario for OP's hopes is this could perhaps be analgous to people without research experience who apply to top 20 schools. 5% of matriculants don't have it. Those 5% have something that really makes up for it( ie URM, military experience, etc on top of incredible stats). The OP is a fine applicant stat wise and research wise. But they aren't going to be in the top 0.1% of an applicant pool(or whatever the top 5% of matriculants would be in an applicant pool) with a 3.65/34. The GPA itself is average for MD matriculants and the 34 kind of MCAT is perhaps in the top 30%(maybe 25% if we're being generous and this is all a rough guess anyway) of lower tier MD school stats.

 

[intenseFACES]

So the MCAT is a 520 (98th percentile). C/P and B/BC 131, P/S 131, CARS 127.
Also, I've managed to find a clinical volunteering opportunity where I can get 30-50 hours before sending in my primary if stall.

 

[Banco]

You should submit ASAP and just input the hours for your volunteering activity as "future hours" and describe whatever you've done/learned so far in the activity description.

Killer MCAT - I think you'll be good for MD this cycle; I'd still throw in some of the top tiers because your research is exceptional. Just have a balanced list consisting of all tiers. And again, submit ASAP.

 

[GrapesofRath]

So the MCAT is a 520 (98th percentile). C/P and B/BC 132, P/S 129, CARS 127.
Also, I've managed to find a clinical volunteering opportunity where I can get 30-50 hours before sending in my primary if stall more.

Do either of those updates affect my chances at MD? If I had, say, 50 hours by a mid August primary submission, would the late submission destroy my chances? Would submitting earlier with fewer hours be better? In any case, the volunteering would be ongoing. I don't need to go to a top school, I just want to practice allopathic medicine.

While the best move is to wait till next cycle you can try and give it a go this cycle if you really need to try and start med school next year. Just keep up the volunteering throughout and building up your app for if the lack of volunteering does you in and you need to reapply again next cycle

 

[Grace184]

You should have spent less time working out and more time volunteering

 

[candbgirl]

You should have spent less time working out and more time volunteering

Especially when OP admits he's only using the working out because he is low on activities.

 

[efle]

Hindsight 20/20 guys, do you maybe have any helpful, applicable advice moving forwards or just want to criticize things OP can't do anything about?

 

[Nietzschelover]

Hindsight 20/20 guys, do you maybe have any helpful, applicable advice moving forwards or just want to criticize things OP can't do anything about?

Exactly. Interesting to see the self-conscious backpedaling. Maybe we should just get rid of the AAMC and school adcoms and let fellow applicants decide everyone's fate and assess them sight-unseen via SDN.

 

[intenseFACES]

Even better, I probably won't include the working out in my primary. It doesn't really seem to add much that isn't already included, and may beg some questions that make me uncomfortable. Plus, adcoms may have some preconceived notions of "meatheads" that may negatively impact my chances for acceptance.

I think I want my work/activities to only include things that would positively help me get my foot in the door. The average adcom will probably skim through my work/activities within a couple minutes. I figure if I waste adcoms' time with something they consider BS filler, they will form negative impressions. I'm sure some adcoms will appreciate a commitment to fitness, but some probably won't, and that's not a risk I'm willing to take in this case.

I could be wrong. Does anyone have opinions about the above?

 

[efle]

Even better, I probably won't include the working out in my primary. It doesn't really seem to add much that isn't already included, and may beg some questions that make me uncomfortable. Plus, adcoms may have some preconceived notions of "meatheads" that may negatively impact my chances for acceptance.

I think I want my work/activities to only include things that would positively help me get my foot in the door. The average adcom will probably skim through my work/activities within a couple minutes. I figure if I waste adcoms' time with something they consider BS filler, they will form negative impressions. I'm sure some adcoms will appreciate a commitment to fitness, but some probably won't, and that's not a risk I'm willing to take in this case.

I could be wrong. Does anyone have opinions about the above?

There's been a lot of threads about mentioning sports and frat membership with the general consensus being that you should include it if it was meaningful to you, so don't worry too much about the meat head stereotypes. You clearly have numbers to back up the presence of a sharp mind! It really comes down to whether it was a serious commitment that you learned descipline from and educated yourself a lot about and poured a lot of hours into (worth mentioning IMO) or if it was the typical college dude wants to look good for the ladies casual lifting a few times a week.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I do know enough to tell you that you better get your Primary in ASAP. You're already late, and some of the hotshots are going to tell you that you're already significantly reducing your chances.

 

[intenseFACES]

Right now I'm thinking of these schools:

Albert Einstein
Boston University
Case Western
Columbia
Emory
Georgetown
Icahn/Mt. Sinai
Indiana University
Johns Hopkins
USC Keck
Loyola
Mayo
Medical College of Wisconsin
NYU
Northwestern
Oakland Beaumont
Ohio State
Penn State
Brown
Tufts
Tulane
University of Chicago Pritzker
University of Cincinnati
University of Miami
University of Michigan
Pitt
University of Rochester
Vanderbilt
WashU
Cornell
Western MI

Any comments or suggestions? Is this too top-heavy? I tried to pick schools with a decent applicant/matriculant ratio, medium-high research funding and emphasis, and accepting of those with less volunteering experience, with a few exceptions.

 

[Doug Underhill]

Why do you have to apply this year, especially with a fresh MCAT that's good for another three cycles? No volunteering looks bad and being a reapplicant looks bad and applying to all those schools will cost $4000.

Why not spend the next year getting a publication and volunteering and apply with a huge app next year on day 1

 

[intenseFACES]

I'm not sure if it would be worth it. I know how I want to spend my life, and if I can get into some of these mid-high tier schools now, what would be the benefit of waiting? Am I significantly less likely to be able to practice medicine if don't go to the one of the highest tier schools? I still haven't ruled out taking another year, but I want to avoid it if I can.

Do I have a reasonable chance for acceptance at these schools given my current app?

 

[Doug Underhill]

I'm not sure if it would be worth it. I know how I want to spend my life, and if I can get into some of these mid-high tier schools now, what would be the benefit of waiting? Am I significantly less likely to be able to practice medicine if don't go to the one of the highest tier schools?

You can practice medicine with a degree from any US MD or DO school, even LUCOM. The benefit of waiting would be a significantly stronger app. Remember, the majority of applicants will never be doctors: you want to go into this process with as strong of a first-time app as possible to avoid the stigma of being a reapplicant. Less than 40% of applicants get in.

 

[candbgirl]

Have you submitted your primary yet?

 

[intenseFACES]

yes

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'm not sure if it would be worth it. I know how I want to spend my life, and if I can get into some of these mid-high tier schools now, what would be the benefit of waiting? Am I significantly less likely to be able to practice medicine if don't go to the one of the highest tier schools? I still haven't ruled out taking another year, but I want to avoid it if I can.

Do you guys/gals think I have a reasonable chance for acceptance at these schools given my current app?

Things I'll throw in to think about.

1) Goro an ADCOM has already told you "chances are zero without volunteering". Take that as you like but that is pretty significant advice about your chances and insight to answering your question from a pretty knowledgeable person.
2) people who get in without any volunteering are exceptions.
3) Being a re-applicant at schools is not something you want to "choose" to be. In particular all these big name schools on your list are not particularly receptive to re-applicants. As gyngyn always talks about there are a umber of schools where you want to avoid being a re-applicant when you can. You clearly can here.
4) At the bare minimum start volunteering now so at least there is something to talk about in your interviews and for the select schools that encourage update letters.
5) You don't need to apply to 33 schools. You need the right choices. All Michigan schools are good choices. Applying to around 15 top tier schools are not what are called good choices. It is very hard to write the number of secondaries you are asking yourself to write and make them all of the best quality you can. If your goal is truly just to get into a med school and not care about prestige, then why apply to so many top tier schools focus so much time on secondaries and detract time and effort away from the lower tiers where your odds are much better.
6) If you wait a year and boost the volunteering experience your chances skyrocket and a whole lot of those big names you listed can be in play.
7) Keep in mind you don't just lack volunteering experience. Your clinical exposure isn't great either. ADCOMs want more than shadowing and its certainly possible volunteering in a gift shop of a hospital won't really be perceived as clinical exposure by an ADCOM.
8) On a related note lack of clinical exposure and volunteering to demonstrate altruism are the two things ADCOMs always cite as EC's that keep big stat applicants out of med school when those ECs aren't present.

 

[rocklobstr]

Clinical volunteering is mainly a selfish activity

So, theoretically, does it look better if someone does non-clinical volunteering and obtains clinical exposure through some other medium? With the qualifier being that the non-clinical volunteering at least appears to be more altruistic/personally rewarding.

 

[Banco]

That's a lot of schools, but overall the list is fine. Make sure to have all Michigan schools (which it seems like you do).

Remove Brown and Indiana.

So, theoretically, does it look better if someone does non-clinical volunteering and obtains clinical exposure through some other medium? With the qualifier being that the non-clinical volunteering at least appears to be more altruistic/personally rewarding.

Yes that is a fine strategy.

Clinical exposure can be gained through many mediums; shadowing, scribing, clinical research, clinical jobs, clinical volunteering, hospice volunteering etc.

I had shadowing and clinical research, along with an average amount of non-clinical volunteering.

 

[rocklobstr]

Yes that is a fine strategy.

Clinical exposure can be gained through many mediums; shadowing, scribing, clinical research, clinical jobs, clinical volunteering, hospice volunteering etc.

I had shadowing and clinical research, along with an average amount of non-clinical volunteering.

Haha, alright, I have scribe hours + non-clinical volunteering I actually really enjoy doing. I tried clinical volunteering, I got the point of it and all, but it just wasn't as satisfying as my non-clinical volunteering. My 2-cents is that it's more important to volunteer for the right reasons

 

[Banco]

Haha, alright, I have scribe hours + non-clinical volunteering I actually really enjoy doing. I tried clinical volunteering, I got the point of it and all, but it just wasn't as satisfying as my non-clinical volunteering. My 2-cents is that it's more important to volunteer for the right reasons

You'll be fine!

 

[rocklobstr]

Also, I agree with what others have said. With your MCAT and GPA, it may be worth doing a gap year and getting in 100-200 volunteer hours along with working/doing research/whatever you want. You could probably get into a high tier school with that plan, but if getting in a year sooner is what you want, then that is fine too.

Having no real clinical experience may hurt you in the long run if you apply now. You could try clinical research, EMS training starting at the end of this school year then getting some hours in, scribing, volunteering at a hospital, etc.