30 hours of clinical work per week?

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pediatric_psydoc

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A friend of mine who is also a psychologist is clinical faculty (associate professor) at a university (he is employed by the school of medicine). He told me that his productivity expectation is 30 hours of face-to-face contact with patients per week, and then has an hour to supervise residents.

I found 30 hours to be very high; I am at an AMC/children’s hospital, and my face-to-face time with patients is 22 hours per week. Grand rounds, department training, rounds, and consult is built into our FTE. I have two hours to supervise practicum students, which is also factored into my FTE.

What are others’ experiences with productivity expectations? Is 30 hours high and/or is mine low?

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32 billable hours is a pretty common benchmark in hospital systems. 22 billable F2F hours would be unheard of in many systems unless you had research buyouts or admin duties built into your FTE. I guess it depends on how much of the admin time is included into your FTE description.
 
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I average 35+ (private group assessment practice, so not all direct client hours). My minimum is 21.5 (standard in my practice is 28), but I teach in an affiliated grad program, and had some historic admin and senior clinical duties.
 
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Obviously a lot depends on the exact nature of the patient population, additional duties, etc. but 22 hours/week is basically part-time at the AMCs I'm familiar with. Seeing 6-7/day for standard 45-min therapy appts (scheduling 7-8) was the expectation at my previous institution. Grand Rounds was during lunch. Even if you have 10 supervisees, <only> the time spent actually in the supervision meeting was considered because clearly a supervisor shouldn't be reviewing documentation, assisting interns with administrative issues or helping them manage emergencies.

To be fair, basically everyone without research time burns out in < 5 years and moves on.

Again, this may be a moot point if you are directing a clinic or have other administrative roles. I would hold onto that job for dear life until something changes though as long as you are content with the compensation/benefits.
 
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I'm supposed to have 100% slot utilization with a 75% "productivity" expectation. I usually have 32-35 hours on my book, and .75 of 35 is around 27-28 hours. It's totally doable. I'm at a multispeciality clinic. It's a lot like public mental health, so we get a pretty high no-show rate. I can always pad the books with report writing and stuff.

Right now I have the highest slot utilization and am doing a ton of testing for asd/adhd/ID. I don't mind it. I bring people in for an hour and then report write after that, so it east about a two hour slot. It's a little inefficient, but it was the only way we could get admin to agree to us offering testing services (gotta maximize that visit code). I think I get better info and like seeing a kiddo over 3-4 sessions.
 
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Is it weird/odd to NOT have productivity requirements? I've been in my state system for 7 years and not once have I had any sort of requirement in this area. I know it's not just a govt vs private thing because of all i hear about with RVUs in the VA.
 
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Is it weird/odd to NOT have productivity requirements? I've been in my state system for 7 years and not once have I had any sort of requirement in this area. I know it's not just a govt vs private thing because of all i hear about with RVUs in the VA.

In my experience, if you're working for a system, yes, it is weird to not have a productivity requirement.
 
Is it weird/odd to NOT have productivity requirements? I've been in my state system for 7 years and not once have I had any sort of requirement in this area. I know it's not just a govt vs private thing because of all i hear about with RVUs in the VA.

Government certainly tends to be more lax about these things than the private sector. Part of the reason that you are hearing so much about RVUs at the VA is that they are trying (in a tone deaf manner) to get serious about such things after decades of being vary lax. If you know older employees at the VA, stories of two hour lunches and low productivity abound. In geriatrics at my facility, they only got serious about RVUs a couple of years ago.
 
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Is it weird/odd to NOT have productivity requirements? I've been in my state system for 7 years and not once have I had any sort of requirement in this area. I know it's not just a govt vs private thing because of all i hear about with RVUs in the VA.
I'd say it's odd overall, yes, but I honestly don't know if any of my state-run practicum sites in grad school had productivity requirements. Maybe the providers in your system are on top of things enough to not need bean counting to that degree. Or maybe the employees have really strong bargaining power.
 
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Obviously a lot depends on the exact nature of the patient population, additional duties, etc. but 22 hours/week is basically part-time at the AMCs I'm familiar with. Seeing 6-7/day for standard 45-min therapy appts (scheduling 7-8) was the expectation at my previous institution. Grand Rounds was during lunch. Even if you have 10 supervisees, the time spent actually in the supervision meeting was considered because clearly a supervisor shouldn't be reviewing documentation, assisting interns with administrative issues or helping them manage emergencies.

To be fair, basically everyone without research time burns out in < 5 years and moves on.

Again, this may be a moot point if you are directing a clinic or have other administrative roles. I would hold onto that job for dear life until something changes though as long as you are content with the compensation/benefits.

Benefits are also good here. 24 days of vacation, 11 paid holidays, 10 sick days, and 5 CME days. Health insurance for employee and one dependent is $60 per paycheck, and the plan is good.
 
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30 patient contact hours is the expectation in the VA, too. At least, all the ones that I know. You could have less if you have administrative or training roles, though.
 
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Government certainly tends to be more lax about these things than the private sector. Part of the reason that you are hearing so much about RVUs at the VA is that they are trying (in a tone deaf manner) to get serious about such things after decades of being vary lax. If you know older employees at the VA, stories of two hour lunches and low productivity abound. In geriatrics at my facility, they only got serious about RVUs a couple of years ago.
What does the VA care anyway? It's taxpayers money
 
What does the VA care anyway? It's taxpayers money

My guess? Biden wants to campaign on the fact that he increased access.

FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration is Supporting America’s Veterans and Their Families, Caregivers, and Survivors | The White House.

"Delivering timely, high quality benefits and services. Under the Biden-Harris Administration, the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) is delivering more benefits and health care, more quickly, to more veterans than ever before. In 2022, VA processed an all-time record 1.7 million veteran claims—breaking the previous record by 12%. In total, VA delivered $128 billion in earned benefits to 6.1 million veterans and survivors during 2022. Over the last two years, VA has provided more than 220 million health care engagements to veterans—the most for a two-year time period in VA history."
 
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So glad I found this thread! I'm interviewing for a position at a medical center and I was told by the recruiter that the expectation is 36 contact hours per week with 4 hours admin time. I thought that sounded high, but I wanted to be sure so I was about to make my own post and I found this one. I'm hoping to get some more clarification on exactly how it's supposed to work out without me having to run myself into the ground.

Anyone have any advice on how to broach this topic in my upcoming interview to gain clarification?
 
So glad I found this thread! I'm interviewing for a position at a medical center and I was told by the recruiter that the expectation is 36 contact hours per week with 4 hours admin time. I thought that sounded high, but I wanted to be sure so I was about to make my own post and I found this one. I'm hoping to get some more clarification on exactly how it's supposed to work out without me having to run myself into the ground.

Anyone have any advice on how to broach this topic in my upcoming interview to gain clarification?

That's very high and likely unachievable IMO, unless you just magically don't get no shows or late cancels for some reason.
 
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That's very high and likely unachievable IMO, unless you just magically don't get no shows or late cancels for some reason.
I bet you have a productivity clause. In my contract they basically want 35 hours a week scheduled. But the productivity expectation is .75 of that. So it’s like 26ish hours. But they only give a **** about not having your week mostly full.
 
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I'm hoping to get some more clarification on exactly how it's supposed to work out without me having to run myself into the ground.
But if you didn't burn out quickly, then what would the recruiter do for a living?
 
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So glad I found this thread! I'm interviewing for a position at a medical center and I was told by the recruiter that the expectation is 36 contact hours per week with 4 hours admin time. I thought that sounded high, but I wanted to be sure so I was about to make my own post and I found this one. I'm hoping to get some more clarification on exactly how it's supposed to work out without me having to run myself into the ground.

Anyone have any advice on how to broach this topic in my upcoming interview to gain clarification?
I agree with the folks above--that's high, but I'd also check for a productivity clause. That means your 40 hours/week technically doesn't include time for lunch, unless they're considering that in the admin time. Which then makes it a misnomer.

Although I suppose it's also only a high expectation if the compensation isn't commensurate. If they're expecting 36 hours contact hours/week but they're paying you 125-150% of the typical salary, it may be a reasonable ask.
 
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Government certainly tends to be more lax about these things than the private sector. Part of the reason that you are hearing so much about RVUs at the VA is that they are trying (in a tone deaf manner) to get serious about such things after decades of being vary lax. If you know older employees at the VA, stories of two hour lunches and low productivity abound. In geriatrics at my facility, they only got serious about RVUs a couple of years ago.
I think this analysis is spot on.

I also think that the pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction.

It also creates perverse incentives that actually end up punishing ACTUAL productivity (i.e., doing active therapy with clients and getting them in and out of time-limited psychotherapy).

Those who work really hard (even outside of EBP protocol/manualized courses of therapy) to continually assess and provide feedback to clients regarding readiness to change, goal-setting, skills-building, between-session assignments, self-monitoring, workbooks, etc. and, therefore, tend to create therapy environments where clients have to either 'defecate' or cease occupying the toilet get screwed in most systems.

This is how it works. The vast majority of VA outpatient providers have two modes of doing therapy. Either a patient is in the midst of doing an EBP protocol treatment (CPT, PE, CBT-i, whatever) or they are in amorphous 'supportive therapy' land. Over time, most providers settle into rescheduling all of their 'supportive therapy' clients basically every 2 to 4 weeks for them to come back and audition for higher service connection benefits or otherwise externalize/complain about everything other than their own patterns of thinking and behaving in terms of contributing to their problems. Most providers are too worn out (due to their now overwhelming backed-up caseloads occupying nearly every moment of their shift) that they just give up and zone out and don't have the energy to 'fight' to re-establish with these clients a proper form of psychotherapy (it's REAL work to do so). They just end up using these sessions as 'breaks' in between the other 'evidence-based' (EBP) protocol sessions/clients that pepper their schedule. It's unsustainable because all the veterans build up into a quasi-permanent never-ending-expanding caseload (with no 'panel' size limits). The extra documentation/paperwork doesn't help here either.

I just spent a year keeping my caseload (or trying to) at an equilibrium point (seeing as many or more new patients per week as everyone else in the clinic, also taking multiple 'extra' cases from everyone else's caseload to 'build up' my caseload more) by aggressively trying to do actual therapy whether or not I was doing an EBP manualized protocol or not. It worked (for a good while). I worked my butt off and patients generally either (a) got with the program, actively participated in active CBT and got better and left/ terminated successfully or (far more commonly) (b) realized that my office wasn't going to be a permanent hobby for them to come in and complain about everything once monthly for the rest of their lives (that I was actually going to hold them/me accountable for providing actual psychotherapy) and they simply passively 'dropped out' of therapy with me. But it was a LOT of extra work (prepping for sessions, photocopying workbook chapters/worksheets, doing actual case formulations, following up on assignments, etc.).

And here's the bitter pill kicker...

Everyone in the clinic saw my 'availability' in my schedule (that I'd fought hard to have) as somehow indication that I wasn't working hard enough. Even though I was taking as many (or more) regularly scheduled intakes into my clinic (as everyone else) AND routinely having them give me patients from their caseloads (generally, the 'tough' patients they didn't want to have to deal with anymore...most of which eventually passively dropped out with me because I held them accountable in therapy). But at this point, I've finally gotten to the point of being overwhelmed/swamped (you can only take so many new referrals per week into your caseload even if you're trying hard to keep things cleared out).

I kept it up for about a year but in the clinic at weekly meetings they have the MSA's read off people's 'next available' appointments in the meeting (it feels like a shaming ritual to me because I have typically had a next available that wasn't too far out) as continued (I suppose) justification for the other providers always sending me extra cases from their caseloads and--you guessed it--these 'extra' gifts from other providers tend to be the high-intensity, suicidal/homicidal, personality-disordered cases no one wants to deal with. But I can't say 'no' because then I am not being a 'team player' and how dare I have availability in my schedule (even though I have that availability because during the gaps between patients I am photocopying CBT self-help manuals/worksheets, reviewing charts, doing case formulations, etc. (ACTUAL PSYCHOTHERAPY PRODUCTIVITY)).

So, the consequence for ACTUALLY being productive as a psychotherapist is more work in the VA system (and 'shaming' for being productive in getting people in/out of therapy). Now I have to find a way to 'scale back' my ACTUAL productivity as a psychotherapist so I don't burn out and so I can APPEAR more 'productive' by having every single slot filled two months plus out and I can be so 'proud' of being 'swamped' with patients.

This is one (of many) reasons why people burn out after a few years of being a full-time therapist in the VA system. Unfortunately, I think the only way to survive long-term is to find some way to change my own values to 'let myself' be a crap therapist most of the time.
 
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With all of the 'accountability metrics' being examined, I just don't understand how they couldn't be a bit more well-designed to measure ACTUAL clinician productivity as defined, for example, as a simple ratio of (a) new cases sent into your caseload (over the past year, for example) divided by (b) your number of hours mapped per week for doing psychotherapy.

If my clinic manager/supervisor were to calculate that simple ratio (which would be trivially easy to do), I believe I would come out looking very good in relation to my peers.

But, instead, they have the MSA's read aloud everyone's 'next available' appointment. Or they just look at RVU's.
 
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I think this analysis is spot on.

I also think that the pendulum has swung way too far in the opposite direction.

It also creates perverse incentives that actually end up punishing ACTUAL productivity (i.e., doing active therapy with clients and getting them in and out of time-limited psychotherapy).

Those who work really hard (even outside of EBP protocol/manualized courses of therapy) to continually assess and provide feedback to clients regarding readiness to change, goal-setting, skills-building, between-session assignments, self-monitoring, workbooks, etc. and, therefore, tend to create therapy environments where clients have to either 'defecate' or cease occupying the toilet get screwed in most systems.

This is how it works. The vast majority of VA outpatient providers have two modes of doing therapy. Either a patient is in the midst of doing an EBP protocol treatment (CPT, PE, CBT-i, whatever) or they are in amorphous 'supportive therapy' land. Over time, most providers settle into rescheduling all of their 'supportive therapy' clients basically every 2 to 4 weeks for them to come back and audition for higher service connection benefits or otherwise externalize/complain about everything other than their own patterns of thinking and behaving in terms of contributing to their problems. Most providers are too worn out (due to their now overwhelming backed-up caseloads occupying nearly every moment of their shift) that they just give up and zone out and don't have the energy to 'fight' to re-establish with these clients a proper form of psychotherapy (it's REAL work to do so). They just end up using these sessions as 'breaks' in between the other 'evidence-based' (EBP) protocol sessions/clients that pepper their schedule. It's unsustainable because all the veterans build up into a quasi-permanent never-ending-expanding caseload (with no 'panel' size limits). The extra documentation/paperwork doesn't help here either.

I just spent a year keeping my caseload (or trying to) at an equilibrium point (seeing as many or more new patients per week as everyone else in the clinic, also taking multiple 'extra' cases from everyone else's caseload to 'build up' my caseload more) by aggressively trying to do actual therapy whether or not I was doing an EBP manualized protocol or not. It worked (for a good while). I worked my butt off and patients generally either (a) got with the program, actively participated in active CBT and got better and left/ terminated successfully or (far more commonly) (b) realized that my office wasn't going to be a permanent hobby for them to come in and complain about everything once monthly for the rest of their lives (that I was actually going to hold them/me accountable for providing actual psychotherapy) and they simply passively 'dropped out' of therapy with me. But it was a LOT of extra work (prepping for sessions, photocopying workbook chapters/worksheets, doing actual case formulations, following up on assignments, etc.).

And here's the bitter pill kicker...

Everyone in the clinic saw my 'availability' in my schedule (that I'd fought hard to have) as somehow indication that I wasn't working hard enough. Even though I was taking as many (or more) regularly scheduled intakes into my clinic (as everyone else) AND routinely having them give me patients from their caseloads (generally, the 'tough' patients they didn't want to have to deal with anymore...most of which eventually passively dropped out with me because I held them accountable in therapy). But at this point, I've finally gotten to the point of being overwhelmed/swamped (you can only take so many new referrals per week into your caseload even if you're trying hard to keep things cleared out).

I kept it up for about a year but in the clinic at weekly meetings they have the MSA's read off people's 'next available' appointments in the meeting (it feels like a shaming ritual to me because I have typically had a next available that wasn't too far out) as continued (I suppose) justification for the other providers always sending me extra cases from their caseloads and--you guessed it--these 'extra' gifts from other providers tend to be the high-intensity, suicidal/homicidal, personality-disordered cases no one wants to deal with. But I can't say 'no' because then I am not being a 'team player' and how dare I have availability in my schedule (even though I have that availability because during the gaps between patients I am photocopying CBT self-help manuals/worksheets, reviewing charts, doing case formulations, etc. (ACTUAL PSYCHOTHERAPY PRODUCTIVITY)).

So, the consequence for ACTUALLY being productive as a psychotherapist is more work in the VA system (and 'shaming' for being productive in getting people in/out of therapy). Now I have to find a way to 'scale back' my ACTUAL productivity as a psychotherapist so I don't burn out and so I can APPEAR more 'productive' by having every single slot filled two months plus out and I can be so 'proud' of being 'swamped' with patients.

This is one (of many) reasons why people burn out after a few years of being a full-time therapist in the VA system. Unfortunately, I think the only way to survive long-term is to find some way to change my own values to 'let myself' be a crap therapist most of the time.

With all of the 'accountability metrics' being examined, I just don't understand how they couldn't be a bit more well-designed to measure ACTUAL clinician productivity as defined, for example, as a simple ratio of (a) new cases sent into your caseload (over the past year, for example) divided by (b) your number of hours mapped per week for doing psychotherapy.

If my clinic manager/supervisor were to calculate that simple ratio (which would be trivially easy to do), I believe I would come out looking very good in relation to my peers.

But, instead, they have the MSA's read aloud everyone's 'next available' appointment. Or they just look at RVU's.

While I applaud your efforts, experience has taught me my place in things. I, personally, think that your efforts are best placed in a private practice that is cash only with clients who are looking for solid treatment. Unless you have control over factors from RVUs to admin support it will be a struggle. The reality is that the systems in place when you accept a job offer generally dictate the type and quality of services that you will be allowed to offer. To relate this back to the OP, a place with 30 clinical hours of work that requires supervision of residents is really saying that they don't expect much in the way of quality supervision and everyone must justify their fiscal existence by billing. I have worked places that asked for 40 clinical hours of work and there seeing more patients was the priority. Yes they talked a good game about quality of services, but all of their decisions pointed to the bottom line. The VA, in its current form, wants to move volume. Their nod to quality in an EBP template. Beyond that, they have little interest in being the best service for their clientele. The way we know this is that RVUs and days to answer a consult are the only metrics that matter recently. That is why clientele with money and options do not choose the VA and a disincentivized from doing so through a history of means testing to receive compensation and access to services. All we can do as clinicians is accept their mandate or find a job that aligns better with our own personal expectations. One of the reasons I plan to go into PP is to have more control of the types of clients and quality of services I provide and this jibes better with my personal values.
 
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Yup, RVUs are a terrible measure of productivity and even the guy who created them said they weren't meant for that. I could literally get more RVUs doing 60 min of supportive therapy with patients, heck we could talk about the weather but my productivity would look awesome. I hate being punished for being an efficient therapist. Also, we are encouraged to do 45 min sessions so we have 15 min for documentation. If you don't keep that boundary you will drown--as I've seen with my colleagues who stick to 60 min appts.

I'm in the VA so over the years I've learned to stop caring. I'm not gonna get fired for having RVUs under my target, especially when MSAs do my scheduling for me anyway.
 
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Pffft. RVUs are great. You just see someone for 55 minutes of psychotherapy, tell them to not smoke, bill 95618 , 95619 (x2), and 99406, then do an hour of record reviews and learning about the medical illness with 99358, maybe call up the physician and use 99240 while reading. Do that three times per day, and that’s ~3500 RVUs year. That’s a pretty easy life.
 
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Yup, RVUs are a terrible measure of productivity and even the guy who created them said they weren't meant for that. I could literally get more RVUs doing 60 min of supportive therapy with patients, heck we could talk about the weather but my productivity would look awesome. I hate being punished for being an efficient therapist. Also, we are encouraged to do 45 min sessions so we have 15 min for documentation. If you don't keep that boundary you will drown--as I've seen with my colleagues who stick to 60 min appts.

I'm in the VA so over the years I've learned to stop caring. I'm not gonna get fired for having RVUs under my target, especially when MSAs do my scheduling for me anyway.

And that is completely within the bounds of regulations both within the VA and in the private sector. Back in my younger days, I started at a new nursing home my company won the contract for and was assessing the residents with psych referrals. On that day, both a patient and a floor nurse commented that I was "very different" than the previous psychologist at the facility. I asked both in what way. They both commented that he used to come in on Saturdays and read the paper in front of his patients. That is when I realized I was offering too high of a quality service for what I was being paid.
 
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Pffft. RVUs are great. You just see someone for 55 minutes of psychotherapy, tell them to not smoke, bill 95618 , 95619 (x2), and 99406, then do an hour of record reviews and learning about the medical illness with 99358, maybe call up the physician and use 99240 while reading. Do that three times per day, and that’s ~3500 RVUs year. That’s a pretty easy life.

I was not aware that we could bill 99358. Other than that, I may have to borrow that.
 
And that is completely within the bounds of regulations both within the VA and in the private sector. Back in my younger days, I started at a new nursing home my company won the contract for and was assessing the residents with psych referrals. On that day, both a patient and a floor nurse commented that I was "very different" than the previous psychologist at the facility. I asked both in what way. They both commented that he used to come in on Saturdays and read the paper in front of his patients. That is when I realized I was offering too high of a quality service for what I was being paid.

I was working hard to up my RVUs and meeting them for a while, then they arbitrarily moved the target higher. That's when I gave up. So I don't get a bonus, I can live with that.
 
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I was working hard to up my RVUs and meeting them for a while, then they arbitrarily moved the target higher. That's when I gave up. So I don't get a bonus, I can live with that.

I could live with that as well. I am having RVU issues caused by the VA. During the pandemic, many people took loved ones out of nursing homes to care for them at home. HBPC was "encouraged" (mandated?)nationally to take these sicker people in and care for them. Many could not speak due to CVA or other progressive disease. Caregivers worked from home and did not want caregiver support during work hours. Many of these people died due to COVID or other causes. Census number dropped. I got in "trouble" for not hitting my RVUs on a bunch of people that are inappropriate for psychotherapy services and largely needed only case management. Umm, VA national caused the problem.
 
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I was working hard to up my RVUs and meeting them for a while, then they arbitrarily moved the target higher. That's when I gave up. So I don't get a bonus, I can live with that.
It's incredibly demoralizing. I could farm maximum RVUs all day long by doing 55 min motivational interviewing, ad infinitum, and for the rest of my patient's lives. How hard is it to implement (and document) the following: "Engaged veteran in motivational interviewing to attempt to elicit ambivalence toward behavior change (in area X) including open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summaries. Engaged in problem-solving around behavior change in the therapeutic direction."

I could earn 3 x 6 (18) RVU's per shift. If they (wouldn't surprise me) move to a 'pay per performance' model of compensation model based on RVUs, that's exactly what I'll do.

The tyranny of metrics in action.
 
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It's incredibly demoralizing. I could farm maximum RVUs all day long by doing 55 min motivational interviewing, ad infinitum, and for the rest of my patient's lives. How hard is it to implement (and document) the following: "Engaged veteran in motivational interviewing to attempt to elicit ambivalence toward behavior change (in area X) including open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summaries. Engaged in problem-solving around behavior change in the therapeutic direction."

I could earn 3 x 6 (18) RVU's per shift. If they (wouldn't surprise me) move to a 'pay per performance' model of compensation model based on RVUs, that's exactly what I'll do.

The tyranny of metrics in action.

The question here, on a personal level, is what is the purpose of your job to you? You can do that, keep the higher ups off your back, and have a secure job, and a decent life. You might even change a few minds and note writing would be easier. Do a little good while following the rules or follow your principles in the hope of doing greater good with more stress. The VA is generally happy if you are doing something (anything) and keeping your folks out of crisis.
 
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I've got some decent ideas about a few subjects. "Being an employee" is not one of those subjects.

You not good at following orders blindly? I am shocked I tell you (I feel like the army would not want to recruit you). I meant I thought it was E/M code only.
 
While responding to this thread, the undersecretary of health sent out an email about providing the "Soonest and Best care" that discusses absolutely no quality metric other than patient satisfaction. That should tell you about the VA's priorities on quality care.
 
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While responding to this thread, the undersecretary of health sent out an email about providing the "Soonest and Best care" that discusses absolutely no quality metric other than patient satisfaction. That should tell you about the VA's priorities on quality care.
"Gentlemen...my practices are not designed for your enjoyment!"

Gene Hackman
Hoosiers
 
The question here, on a personal level, is what is the purpose of your job to you? You can do that, keep the higher ups off your back, and have a secure job, and a decent life. You might even change a few minds and note writing would be easier. Do a little good while following the rules or follow your principles in the hope of doing greater good with more stress. The VA is generally happy if you are doing something (anything) and keeping your folks out of crisis.

Not gonna answer for Fan of Meehl, but man I would find that boring and unfulfilling in terms of why I'm in this field.
 
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Not gonna answer for Fan of Meehl, but man I would find that boring and unfulfilling in terms of why I'm in this field.
Spot on! I wouldn't be able to help myself from CBT case-formulating and intervening. Maybe I'll just get better at writing less detailed/intensive notes.
 
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Spot on! I wouldn't be able to help myself from CBT case-formulating and intervening. Maybe I'll just get better at writing less detailed/intensive notes.

That's fine. If you happen to do that just make sure you use an EBP template. If a psychologist engages in CBT and there is no template to document it, did quality care really happen?

season 2 episode 6 GIF
 
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Spot on! I wouldn't be able to help myself from CBT case-formulating and intervening. Maybe I'll just get better at writing less detailed/intensive notes.

I happen to agree, but I think it is an individual choice. No judgment from this side of the table.
 
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Can you really do exposure or CBT, if the patient only wants to be satisfied?

Unless you can convince them that a little discomfort will improve their lives, not really. That becomes the biggest problem with VA care. What do you do with the patients that want non-EBP/non-time limited treatment when you are not allowed to deny them care? The answer is waste your time or make it someone else's problem (convince them to take a referral). The only metric VA has focused on is time from consult to first appointment and then time from first to second appt when there was a national back up of second appts. There is no interest in curtailing ineffective care. Just keep hiring providers....

Here is the other question, how do you convince a person with PTSD that receives $50k+ in disability pension from the government to engage in treatment so that they can get better and go back to a job earning $30k?
 
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That's fine. If you happen to do that just make sure you use an EBP template. If a psychologist engages in CBT and there is no template to document it, did quality care really happen?

season 2 episode 6 GIF
Exactly.
 
Unless you can convince them that a little discomfort will improve their lives, not really. That becomes the biggest problem with VA care. What do you do with the patients that want non-EBP/non-time limited treatment when you are not allowed to deny them care? The answer is waste your time or make it someone else's problem (convince them to take a referral). The only metric VA has focused on is time from consult to first appointment and then time from first to second appt when there was a national back up of second appts. There is no interest in curtailing ineffective care. Just keep hiring providers....

Here is the other question, how do you convince a person with PTSD that receives $50k+ in disability pension from the government to engage in treatment so that they can get better and go back to a job earning $30k?
Improving lightning-fast access speed for intake is great and everything until we realize that we don't have any 1 session treatments for anything other than possibly specific phobia (if you're Hans Ost or something).

Intakes aren't curative.
 
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Improving lightning-fast access speed for intake is great and everything until we realize that we don't have any 1 session treatments for anything other than possibly specific phobia (if you're Hans Ost or something).

Intakes aren't curative.

I always use this Simpsons scene to describe how I feel about the push for initial access vs. f/u access
 

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I bet you have a productivity clause. In my contract they basically want 35 hours a week scheduled. But the productivity expectation is .75 of that. So it’s like 26ish hours. But they only give a **** about not having your week mostly full.

I worked in a CMH center pre license. They had something like 35 hours a week scheduled with productivity expectation of around .65 of that. Unfortunately they had some bad middle managers with no experience or bad math skills who would write clinicians up regularly claiming the requirements were higher. The higher ups apparently encouraged this approach of “fear based management “ because too many write ups could be demoted to FFS or fired. I imagine it also kept costs down since turnover was sky high or sadly some clinicians felt write ups meant they were no good at the job so stayed because figured no better place would take them and there for settled for less. Also turned out the middle manager boss encouraged write ups as a way to “help managers gain confidence in managing staff .”

As for others I’ve seen, I know three psychologists who work at a large private clinic with 37 billable hours a week as requirement. And that’s almost all 50 min 1-1 talk therapy. Oy.
 
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And that is completely within the bounds of regulations both within the VA and in the private sector. Back in my younger days, I started at a new nursing home my company won the contract for and was assessing the residents with psych referrals. On that day, both a patient and a floor nurse commented that I was "very different" than the previous psychologist at the facility. I asked both in what way. They both commented that he used to come in on Saturdays and read the paper in front of his patients. That is when I realized I was offering too high of a quality service for what I was being paid.
In my younger days I'd assume this was a joke or tongue in cheek. Now in my slightly older days, in these facilities myself some days, I wonder if you're serious about the guy reading the newspaper. :rofl:

If you are serious, maybe newspaper man was just internalizing the status quo of the level of quality service in a lot of these places. I have patients often share with me that they may not need a psychologist, but they comment that the level of service my company provides through myself and my colleagues is often miles ahead of the level of quality of the actual facility.
 
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In my younger days I'd assume this was a joke or tongue in cheek. Now in my slightly older days, in these facilities myself some days, I wonder if you're serious about the guy reading the newspaper. :rofl:

If you are serious, maybe newspaper man was just internalizing the status quo of the level of quality service in a lot of these places. I have patients often share with me that they may not need a psychologist, but they comment that the level of service my company provides through myself and my colleagues is often miles ahead of the level of quality of the actual facility.

Completely serious actually. If you have worked in enough facilities, you will know that there are those that do not care. As far as nursing home stories, I have a number and that is far from the worst behavior I have seen.

Whatever you do, don't end up like the cook:

 
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Completely serious actually. If you have worked in enough facilities, you will know that there are those that do not care. As far as nursing home stories, I have a number and that is far from the worst behavior I have seen.

Whatever you do, don't end up like the cook:


Now that I think about it, I recall a colleague sharing how a psychologist at another similar company was apparently putting "Did not respond" or "No response" in most of the text fields of brief evals and follow ups...they were apparently just sitting in the room with any patient on the list whether the patient was conscious or not and just reading off the eval questions to no one. Maybe it was the newspaper man. Shady stuff.

Never end up like the cook.
 
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