MD 4.0/516: WAMC / School List Review

[runner31]

Got my MCAT score recently, so I will be applying to the 2022-2023 cycle (MD). I'm in the process of getting my personal statement, LORs, and activity section completed, so I should be good to apply by the end of May (or whenever AMCAS opens).

I've been gathering a lot of information about med school statistics, residency placement, etc. Thought I would add my stats and med school list here. If anyone has any input and if there are any necessary last-minute changes to my application that I should implement, let me know

I'll provide some information on the methods I used to create my list below, but here are my stats/ECs:

1. cGPA and sGPA: 4.0/4.0
2. Major: Chemistry
3. MCAT score and breakdown: 516 (129/129/129/129) - First time
4. State of residence: IN
5. Ethnicity and/or race: White male
6. Undergraduate institution: Flagship state school
7. Clinical experience(volunteer and non-volunteer):
   1. Hospice volunteer (unable to complete a huge amount of hours due to COVID); ~ 50 hours
   2. Clinical Laboratory Assistant; ~ 250 hours
8. Research experience and productivity
   1. Involved in undergraduate research beginning as a freshman - 2500 hours
   2. Participated in an undergraduate summer research program at my university
   3. Wrote several thesis papers on my work for research credit
   4. Finalizing publication on this work (not sure if second, third author, etc)
      1. No additional publications besides this
   5. Presented poster at major research conference
9. Shadowing experience and specialties represented
   1. Shadowed 3 different docs:
      1. OB-GYN
      2. 2 General Surgeons
   2. 53 hours
10. Non-clinical volunteering
    1. Started/coached a new cross country program at a local middle school - 150 hours
    2. Coached a track & field program during the spring semesters - 50 hours
    3. Community Food Bank Volunteer - 50 hours
    4. Science Fair Judge - 25 hours
    5. Science Outreach Volunteer - went to various elementary schools and showed demonstrations of some science experiments - 15 hours
11. Other extracurricular activities
    1. Elected officer for Student Government - highly involved and large impact - 2 year commitment
    2. Ambassador for Pre-Med/Pre-Law program at my university - coordinated and helped set up events, meet with new students, etc - 2 year commitment
    3. Member of various campus clubs
    4. Organic Chem / Calculus Tutor
    5. Substitute math / science teacher for local middle school
12. Relevant honors or awards
    1. Various research, academic merit, and community scholarships

School List

I currently have 40 schools on my list, and I'm aiming to apply to 30. I made this list using a few guidelines:

1. Any school I add to my list should be around the same residency placement score (list compiled by u/limeyguydr as my state medical school (Indiana University). For example, Illinois is ranked 65 on this list and IU is ranked 38. Therefore, it's not on my list.
2. Using the MSAR, I found the median MCAT score for OOS students for these 38 schools. I used this as a basis for my "safe" and "reach" schools. I don't really have a hard rule for this, but "safe" schools include any school with a median OOS MCAT of +1 to -6 points from my MCAT score (516). Therefore, "reach" schools include any school with an OOS MCAT of 518+. Let me know if there's a better way to classify "reach" and "safe" schools.

Anyways, here's my list of 40 schools. Let me know which I should remove to get to 30 schools. Additionally, let me know if I should be a little less top heavy and focus more on OOS-friendly / private schools within a suitable MCAT range. Thanks again, everyone, and best of luck to everyone applying this cycle.

Safe (ranked from least to greatest OOS MCAT):
U Alabama
Indiana
Wake Forest
Georgetown
Utah
Wisconsin
University of Minnesota
University of Colorado
Maryland
Rutgers (RWJ)
University FL
Tufts
Dartmouth
Brown
Einstein
Emory
Baylor
Ohio State
Boston University

Reach
Cinci
Michigan
UT McGovern
UT SW
Northwestern
UNC
Rochester
Iowa
Pitt
Case Western
Sinal
Cornell
Duke
Harvard
Mayo
Vanderbilt
Yale
Hopkins
UVA
Penn
NYU

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[Mr.Smile12]

Did you do a WARS analysis?
What community service activities are "stretch" activities, i.e., got you out if your comfort zone? Just the 50 food bank hours?

 

[runner31]

Did you do a WARS analysis?
What community service activities are "stretch" activities, i.e., got you out if your comfort zone? Just the 50 food bank hours?

Thanks for your reply! To your first question- yeah I did a WARS analysis and tried to be pretty honest. Got an 84, which I think puts me in the A category. Hard to comment on its accuracy tho IMO.

The food bank hours? I wouldn't really consider them "stretch" activites. The best activity that "stretched" me was beginning a new XC program and committing to organizing and coaching the meets / team. Lots to write about that experience for sure.

 

[Faha]

Your low clinical exposure hours will limit your chances for interviews. You also have several state public schools on your list that admit few non residents with no connection to the state. suggest these schools with your stats:
Indiana
Western Michigan
Oakland Beaumont
Medical College Wisconsin
Rosalind Franklin
TCU-UNT
NOVA MD
USF Morsani
Wake Forest
Virginia Commonwealth
Eastern Virginia
George Washington
Drexel
Temple
Jefferson
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Ohio State
Cincinnati
Seton Hall
Hofstra
Einstein
Mount Sinai
Rochester
Vermont
Quinnipiac
Tufts

 

[runner31]

Your low clinical exposure hours will limit your chances for interviews. You also have several state public schools on your list that admit few non residents with no connection to the state. suggest these schools with your stats:
Indiana
Western Michigan
Oakland Beaumont
Medical College Wisconsin
Rosalind Franklin
TCU-UNT
NOVA MD
USF Morsani
Wake Forest
Virginia Commonwealth
Eastern Virginia
George Washington
Drexel
Temple
Jefferson
Penn State
Pittsburgh
Ohio State
Cincinnati
Seton Hall
Hofstra
Einstein
Mount Sinai
Rochester
Vermont
Quinnipiac
Tufts

Appreciate your honest response. What would qualify as an adequate amount of clinical exposure hours? Are you referring to my low shadowing hours? Or are you referring to my 300 clinical hours?

Thanks in advance for any feedback you might give.

 

[candbgirl]

! I think @Faha was talking about the Clinical Lab Assistant! What is that, what did you do and did you come face to face with the sick, injured and dying ? Or did you run blood ? Your hospice work is fine. But you need more hours!
I’m confused by your system for developing in your list. You have lots of OOS public schools . Did you check to see if they are OOS friendly? And why leave schools out of your list based on a Reddit list?

 

[Faha]

What did your 250 hours of clinical laboratory assistant involve ? Your shadowing hours are fine.

 

[runner31]

Thanks for your responses, @candbgirl and @Faha. I'll try to clarify a few things.

What is that, what did you do and did you come face to face with the sick, injured and dying ? Or did you run blood ? Your hospice work is fine. But you need more hours!

Good question. I started my clinical work as a scribe, so I have like 50 or so hours of that. However, I'm not counting it to my clinical hours because I didn't really think it was meaningful to me (no offense to any scribes reading this, just my opinion). I wanted to have a clinical job where I would make an impact- and to me, I found that in the hospital lab. And truthfully, I probably spend the same amount of time around patients in the lab as I did as a scribe. Did I have any direct contact with patients as a scribe? Not at all. In fact, we were encouraged to not even look at the patient. So I didn't really see a big difference between scribing and my clinical lab role, where yes, I perform testing on various patient samples and don't see patients in-person.

However, I believe (and correct me if this thinking is erroneous) that having some sort of active clinical role where you serve patients is somewhat comparable to getting direct patient experience. And I think this for a few reasons. For one, how many pre-med students were able to directly care for patients during the pandemic? Unless you were an EMT or CNA, I found it hard to find anyone in my pre-med cohort who were able to directly come into contact with patients due to COVID-19. And I'd wager that medical schools are relatively understanding of this. So no, I don't routinely come into contact with patients in the clinical lab role, but I do actively come into contact with patients in the hospice role.

But, I get your point. Having direct contact with patients is valuable, and that's a weakness in my app. In light of this, I'll continue to do hospice volunteering and try to at least double my hours before matriculation.

I’m confused by your system for developing in your list. You have lots of OOS public schools . Did you check to see if they are OOS friendly? And why leave schools out of your list based on a Reddit list?

Another good question- thanks for asking. I should have explained my list a little better. I'll address your first question: yes, I have checked to see if they are OOS friendly- and granted, not all are. I should probably remove the ones that aren't. Anyways, my definition of OOS-friendly is any school with an interview rate higher than 8% (as a side note, I have a hard time believing that this percentage is accurate. Given that the median MCAT score for applicants is 505 or so, how many applicants to these schools are truly qualified? Hard to say.).

To your second question: totally fair. It seems a little arbitrary, doesn't it? To my knowledge, this list contains USNW rankings as well as residency director rankings (also from USNW report, I think you have to pay to view them). Is it fool-proof? Probably not. It's just something I'm using to get a solid list going.

But it makes sense, right? I probably shouldn't apply to a school with a residency placement ranking far below Indiana, right? That's my thinking at least. Feel free to critique it.

What did your 250 hours of clinical laboratory assistant involve ? Your shadowing hours are fine.

See above. I mean, there are a lot of good takeaways from this position- teamwork, adherence to excellence, upmost priority for patient wellbeing, etc. Supplementing that with shadowing and hospice seems like it would be okay, especially since I'll get more before I matriculate. But then again, I could be completely wrong. Just putting my rationale out there.

Truly, thanks for your input. A lot of people are telling me to apply broadly, but I want to be careful. Better to be grounded in reality than blinded optimism. Thanks again.

 

[Faha]

Your Clinical Lab Assistant hours are not clinical volunteering with patient contact. Accumulate more hours at the hospice and include your 50 hours of scribing. If you have 150+ hours of hospice volunteering and scribing that should be adequate with your stats.

 

[runner31]

Got it. Thanks again for your input- highly appreciated.

 

[chilly_md]

As said before, your lab assistant role does not count as clinical experience. Pursue additional hospice hours or perhaps work as a scribe on top of that. You likely will have a poor personal statement otherwise. Your application currently is one that many will read and take away that you are more of a fit for a PhD program.

Do not apply to out-of-state public schools like Alabama or Minnesota. Faha’s list is good (Ohio State and Cincinnati take a sizeable # of OOS FYI), but do not apply to Oakland, Quinnipiac, VCU, TCU or EVMS. Those schools value service more than research schools (which also still want to see that you care about helping those less fortunate). Creating a cross country team and organizing it is more of a leadership experience. Other schools such as NOVA MD will likely ask in secondaries about your non-academic experiences.

 

[runner31]

As said before, your lab assistant role does not count as clinical experience. Pursue additional hospice hours or perhaps work as a scribe on top of that. You likely will have a poor personal statement otherwise. Your application currently is one that many will read and take away that you are more of a fit for a PhD program.

Glad you're bringing this up. Since I don't have many publications, I figured that being involved in a clinical lab would make up for it slightly. With that being said, you're right- I probably need to get more clinical experience. If I really dislike scribing, would it be a good move to add more shadowing / hospice volunteering?

On a side note, I find it interesting that only ~50% of matriculating students have some sort of clinical experience according to MSAR. Does this point to research / academic stats / shadowing having a greater importance in the whole application? I can't imagine that scribing would be the one thing that would make an application stand out. But then again, I could definitely be wrong.

Do not apply to out-of-state public schools like Alabama or Minnesota. Faha’s list is good (Ohio State and Cincinnati take a sizeable # of OOS FYI), but do not apply to Oakland, Quinnipiac, VCU, TCU or EVMS. Those schools value service more than research schools (which also still want to see that you care about helping those less fortunate). Creating a cross country team and organizing it is more of a leadership experience. Other schools such as NOVA MD will likely ask in secondaries about your non-academic experiences.

This is good advice- so thank you for that. I'll remove schools with low OOS matriculation percentages. As for the other schools in this list, I have a hard time convincing myself that they're worth applying to- especially since they're ranked lower than IU. What do you think? Is it best in the end to have a list of schools that I can pick and choose where I want to go? Or is it better to aim for higher-ranked schools than IU and hope that my interview / writing gets me in?

Any input would be appreciated- and thanks for what you do.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

On a side note, I find it interesting that only ~50% of matriculating students have some sort of clinical experience according to MSAR. Does this point to research / academic stats / shadowing having a greater importance in the whole application? I can't imagine that scribing would be the one thing that would make an application stand out. But then again, I could definitely be wrong.

Can you point out where this information is located on the MSAR? I'm curious as well.

 

[runner31]

Can you point out where this information is located on the MSAR? I'm curious as well.

I guess I can't say that it's a hard/fast rule that about 50% of students matriculating to medical school have paid clinical experience, but it's definitely true for colleges like Harvard (in 2020, only 34% of matriculating class had paid clinical experience) or Pittsburgh (in 2020, only 37% of matriculating class had paid clinical experience). This data can be found in Admissions => Premedical Experiences of First Year Class.

At the very least, I've found that it's much more common for medical/clinical volunteering to be present on the application of first-year students, so I think there's a fair argument for increasing that in my app. But given the relatively low prevalence of paid clinical experience in first year students, I don't find the argument of adding more scribing hours to be particularly convincing. Valuable? Sure. But necessary? Probably not. But again, that's just my take. Could be completely wrong.

 

[chilly_md]

You do not have to pursue scribing if you did not like it. Continuing to do hospice volunteering is sufficient, but you may not gain many hours in the next few months or have learned enough insight while serving those who are close to passing away, especially if the opportunity is still restricted in your area due to the pandemic.

Paid experience is not necessary but allows you to pick up more hours and have more face-to-face interaction if you are an EMT, CNA or a scribe (to an extent). Shadowing is a separate category, you have sufficient hours for that. Especially during the pandemic, it is easier to gain clinical experience as an employee vs trying to find a role volunteering. Those with non-paid experience would have volunteered for much longer than you have and gained many more hours.

I would focus on getting into a medical school as opposed to either around IU-level or better. Some of the schools such as USF and Western Michigan try to land students with higher MCATs. So even if they are lower ranked, they are good options to have. They would not yield protect you most likely. You have great chances at IU if you improve your application, so if you have acceptances to other schools, you will probably decline them if you get into IU. That would be a good problem to have.

 

[runner31]

You do not have to pursue scribing if you did not like it. Continuing to do hospice volunteering is sufficient, but you may not gain many hours in the next few months or have learned enough insight while serving those who are close to passing away, especially if the opportunity is still restricted in your area due to the pandemic.

Paid experience is not necessary but allows you to pick up more hours and have more face-to-face interaction if you are an EMT, CNA or a scribe (to an extent). Shadowing is a separate category, you have sufficient hours for that. Especially during the pandemic, it is easier to gain clinical experience as an employee vs trying to find a role volunteering. Those with non-paid experience would have volunteered for much longer than you have and gained many more hours.

I would focus on getting into a medical school as opposed to either around IU-level or better. Some of the schools such as USF and Western Michigan try to land students with higher MCATs. So even if they are lower ranked, they are good options to have. They would not yield protect you most likely. You have great chances at IU if you improve your application, so if you have acceptances to other schools, you will probably decline them if you get into IU. That would be a good problem to have.

This is great- thanks for your response. I definitely think you're right, so I'll try to strengthen that part of my application ASAP.

And to your point regarding schools- yeah, that's true. It's better to have to reject some acceptances than get none because of overconfidence.

All good stuff. Thanks again.

 

[runner31]

Here's my updated school list. I've kept Texas schools in there, but I tried to remove some of the state schools and the higher reach schools.

Medical College of Wisconsin
Indiana
Vermont
Wake Forest
Jefferson
Maryland
Miami
Dartmouth
Einstein
Western Michigan
Emory
Baylor
Ohio State
Boston University
USF - Morsani
Michigan
Pitt
Northwestern
Rochester
Cinci
UT McGovern
Hofstra
Case Western
Sinai
Harvard
Duke
Mayo
University of Texas SW
Hopkins
NYU

Do I need to take off some of the higher-tiered schools?

 

[chilly_md]

Are you connected to Texas in anyway? You can keep Baylor but remove McGovern and UTSW. Also remove Maryland.

Add UVA, Tufts, Stony Brook, Iowa, Colorado and USC (Southern California).

Remember to gain more clinical and non-clinical volunteering hours.

 

[runner31]

Are you connected to Texas in anyway? You can keep Baylor but remove McGovern and UTSW. Also remove Maryland.

Add UVA, Tufts, Stony Brook, Iowa, Colorado and USC (Southern California).

Remember to gain more clinical and non-clinical volunteering hours.

Got it. I'll be sure to edit my list accordingly. Thanks.

And yeah, I'm upping my weekly clinical hours (hospice) to meet my personal goal of 150 hours before I submit my application. I'm additionally continuing to increase my non-clinical hours as well.