A Clinical Look at Clinical Doctorates

[Taurus]

If you truly want to be in independent practice with just 4 years of schooling, go become a dentist.

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[fab4fan]

<shudder>

No offense to dentists, but...ick.

 

[fab4fan]

A friend of mine is getting her DNP.

She is getting it because there is a serious shortage of nursing faculty worldwide, much less nation wide. She wishes to continue to teach at the University level and since every other faculty (History, English, Economics, you name it) for the most part requires professors to have their doctorate she must as well.

Believe it or not, every time a nurse tries to achieve higher education it is not because they are trying to take jobs away from doctors...

Perhaps you guys would like nurses keep sitting at the back of the education bus.

Back Nurse, Back! D@mn you.

I take a lot of it with a grain of salt. Most of it just smacks of adolescent male chest-thumping. The adults I work with tend to get along well enough. Of course, there are jerks here and there, but most of them are old-time attendings. We've had an annoying med student on occasion, but the interns and residents are usually pretty decent.

Good for your friend for wanting to teach. That wouldn't be my gig, either, but we do need more teachers. Correction: I wouldn't want to teach nursing. There are other things I can think of that I would love to teach.

 

[lawguil]

A friend of mine is getting her DNP.

She is getting it because there is a serious shortage of nursing faculty worldwide, much less nation wide. She wishes to continue to teach at the University level and since every other faculty (History, English, Economics, you name it) for the most part requires professors to have their doctorate she must as well.

Believe it or not, every time a nurse tries to achieve higher education it is not because they are trying to take jobs away from doctors...

Perhaps you guys would like nurses keep sitting at the back of the education bus.

Back Nurse, Back! D@mn you.

"DNP" is not a real doctorate or equivalent to the PhD........Clinical doctorates are not recognized where I teach......A DPT is viewed the same as a BSPT.......

 

[lawguil]

In my opinion, a profession does itself no favor by degree creep. If you have stratification of the profession, then the top degree means something and it will be valued more. A PhD is more valued and respected than a master's because people assume, usually correctly, that a person has to be smarter, more dedicated, and more capable to complete a PhD versus a master's. Most people can do a master's, but only a small percentage of people can do a PhD. If everyone in the profession has the same degree, then it's really hard to differentiate the top people from the bottom ones. A single DPT among many bachelor PT's is impressive. A DPT among many DPT is not. Hence, the value of that degree will never reach the level that it could be. That's why the DPT and PharmD salaries are not that much different than their bachelor counterparts. A DNP is not worth more than an NP. No wonder some NP's were pissed about the creation of the DNP.

That is where it creates confusion........the perception is that the DPT is more educated in the profession than a BSPT, however, they are not!

Can anybody see through the smoke screen?

 

[horsenurse25]

If you truly want to be in independent practice with just 4 years of schooling, go become a dentist.

Even though I know you have been told this many times, I will remind you that a DNP is a minimum of 6 years with most schools requiring at least a year of full time clinical experience in between the BSN and entry into the DNP program.

Most faculties will not accept a BSN and the applicant must currently have a NP already. The requirements into MOST NP programs are a BSN along with a minimum of 1 year full time work as an RN.

So to put it into simple terms so you do not get confused again...

1) Most programs require a NP degree first which is a minimum of 6 year degree not including the minimum 1 year full time work in acute care...so basically 7 years.
2) the DNP is another 2 years on top of that.


So a for most programs a DNP will have had 8 years of school (almost all of it practice based) and a minimum of 1 year acute work in between.

Basically 9 years.


Hmmm. Does not sound so airy-fairy to me.....

 

[Taurus]

Even though I know you have been told this many times, I will remind you that a DNP is a minimum of 6 years with most schools requiring at least a year of full time clinical experience in between the BSN and entry into the DNP program.

Most faculties will not accept a BSN and the applicant must currently have a NP already. The requirements into MOST NP programs are a BSN along with a minimum of 1 year full time work as an RN.

So to put it into simple terms so you do not get confused again...

1) Most programs require a NP degree first which is a minimum of 6 year degree not including the minimum 1 year full time work in acute care...so basically 7 years.
2) the DNP is another 2 years on top of that.


So a for most programs a DNP will have had 8 years of school (almost all of it practice based) and a minimum of 1 year acute work in between.

Basically 9 years.


Hmmm. Does not sound so airy-fairy to me.....

*Yawn* Typical nursing spin.

4 of those years are college. I might also add that nursing school is not difficult either. I've reviewed the material you learn and what your tests are like. It's at the level of high school biology. I don't mean it to be an insult. I understand that they have to keep the material at simplified level so that most students can graduate. You have people from all sorts of backgrounds and abilities going into nursing. Make the tests hard and too many will fail. It's not necessary to test nurses that hard since they won't be making diagnosis and treatment decisions. Executing orders doesn't require much intellectual prowess. That's why they are able to offer NP and DNP degrees online. If the degrees were more rigorous, that would never be possible.

Working full-time earning a salary and not having to study and take tests is not considered part of schooling; it's called job experience. Sure, a medical resident gets paid, but he has to attend didactics, be evaluated rigorously, see and do so many such and such, has to study constantly because he's tested. Do you do those things when you work full-time? No, you just punch the clock and get paid.

DNP is 3 years of classes and 1 year of "residency" or whatever you call it during which you also happen to be working full-time and yet get credit for it. That's a sweet deal, eh?!! The extra classroom year they tacked on to the DNP curriculum is mostly seminars and fluffy stuff. Very little substance.

It's painfully obvious to everyone except horsenut that the DNP is a political creation and not one of true substance. That's why in the end the DNP=NP, except it will take longer and cost more.

 

[prairiedog]

*Yawn* Typical nursing spin.

4 of those years are college. I might also add that nursing school is not difficult either. I've reviewed the material you learn and what your tests are like. It's at the level of high school biology. I don't mean it to be an insult. I understand that they have to keep the material at simplified level so that most students can graduate. You have people from all sorts of backgrounds and abilities going into nursing. Make the tests hard and too many will fail. It's not necessary to test nurses that hard since they won't be making diagnosis and treatment decisions. Executing orders doesn't require much intellectual prowess. That's why they are able to offer NP and DNP degrees online. If the degrees were more rigorous, that would never be possible.

Working full-time earning a salary and not having to study and take tests is not considered part of schooling; it's called job experience. Sure, a medical resident gets paid, but he has to attend didactics, be evaluated rigorously, see and do so many such and such, has to study constantly because he's tested. Do you do those things when you work full-time? No, you just punch the clock and get paid.

DNP is 3 years of classes and 1 year of "residency" or whatever you call it during which you also happen to be working full-time and yet get credit for it. That's a sweet deal, eh?!! The extra classroom year they tacked on to the DNP curriculum is mostly seminars and fluffy stuff. Very little substance.

It's painfully obvious to everyone except horsenut that the DNP is a political creation and not one of true substance. That's why in the end the DNP=NP, except it will take longer and cost more.

Have you always been such a challenge. I recall a thread discussing the personalities of MDs, I am guessing you hope to be in surgery? You clearly fit the stereotype.

 

[fab4fan]

Have you always been such a challenge. I recall a thread discussing the personalities of MDs, I am guessing you hope to be in surgery? You clearly fit the stereotype.

It's also typical of someone who has not a clue what nurses really do. Look at the comment about nurses doing nothing but "executing orders." As if.

Taurus likes to try to get nurses riled up. It's his schtick, his raison d'etre. Pay it no mind.

 

[horsenurse25]

Wow Taurus. You REALLY have no idea what nurses do.

I suggest you know what you are talking about before you disparage something that you obviously feel threatened by. Your entire post speaks volumes of ignorance.

I suggest you re-read my post. It seems that you still do not understand the degree process and I really cannot make it any simpler for you. Get a nurse to explain it.


If by some miracle you actually do become a doctor, you had better smarten up. Nurses will make or break you. Funnily enough, in the real world, I have rarely met rude or arrogant doctors such as yourself (well wanna be doctor anyways). They are uniformly respectful and interested in my input (which is in turn reciprocated by the nursing staff). In fact, most of them will ask me my opinion. Shocking, no??!!

Fab4 - you are the best. Long time no talk.

 

[zenman]

I might also add that nursing school is not difficult either. I've reviewed the material you learn and what your tests are like. It's at the level of high school biology. I don't mean it to be an insult. I understand that they have to keep the material at simplified level so that most students can graduate. You have people from all sorts of backgrounds and abilities going into nursing. Make the tests hard and too many will fail. It's not necessary to test nurses that hard since they won't be making diagnosis and treatment decisions. Executing orders doesn't require much intellectual prowess. That's why they are able to offer NP and DNP degrees online. If the degrees were more rigorous, that would never be possible.

Most physicians I've talked to said that getting the MD was difficult only in that there was so much to memorize and then trying to study and stay awake during the long hours of residency.

That is a poor way to "educate" anyone as much of what you learn will not be remembered unless it's applicable to your area of practice. I've helped physicians look up basic stuff because we've both forgotten it...and had a good laugh about it. As for online learning, I prefer it to driving to class, finding a parking spot, wasting time with people asking questions they could find the answer to themselves, etc.. I realize it may not be for everyone but I'm a self-learner and don't have to be spoon fed. I would prefer my own physician be the same as me!

As for making diagnosis and treatment decisions, you're totally clueless. I've had to make many before being able to contact the physician....and many times the physician has thanked me. Rarely, I've "accidently" added labs I thought the patient needed and in one case the physician called me at home to thank me. Residents have asked me many times what to do, what IV's to give, etc. I've even "taught" physicians, usually very discreetly, by for example, taking their hand and reversing the O2 mask into the correct position. Or telling the physician to "let's stand here by the patient's bedside to see if he codes since you pushed xxx drug in way too fast." (and being told by the physician that they receive no training in how to give the meds). Or refusing to give that morphine to the patient with a new head injury or abdominal pain. I could go on forever...

I can't help it that nursing is not as difficult as medicine. It's the profession I chose. I bet there are some physicists who are saying, "those medical students have it so easy." Heck, I think anthropology is probably more difficult than medical school.

And one more thing. Your "tough" education probably did not get you where I'm at. I have a FREE 3 BR apartment, a brand new Toyota that only costs me $600 a year for gas, oil , maintenance (I haven't raised a hood or opened a gas tank in almost 3 years), free house maintenance on all appliances, etc.. I pay zero taxes to no country and I travel all over the world, usually around the world twice a year. In December I'll be in Kerala for over a week, Germany, the USA and finish off the year with a month in Peru and the Amazon. I'm such a ******* it hurts, lol.

 

[Taurus]

Lol. Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message. People who have gone through both nursing and medical school will say the same thing. There's no comparison.

 

[horsenurse25]

Lol. Don't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message. People who have gone through both nursing and medical school will say the same thing. There's no comparison.

I don't think that is the issue in the least. No one is saying they are comparable. They are two different foci in the field of health care. Both valid, but not equal. Neither is 'better' or higher, or whatever you wish to say. In your defensive, knee jerk, nursing ignorance you attack any attempt by the nursing profession to achieve higher education and recieve validation for work they have done for many decades.

So get over it already and see the big picture here.

 

[fab4fan]

Hey horsenurse, I've just been busy getting more "useless" education. Still around though.

 

[lawguil]

I don't think that is the issue in the least. No one is saying they are comparable. They are two different foci in the field of health care. Both valid, but not equal. Neither is 'better' or higher, or whatever you wish to say. In your defensive, knee jerk, nursing ignorance you attack any attempt by the nursing profession to achieve higher education and recieve validation for work they have done for many decades.

So get over it already and see the big picture here.

There is nothing wrong with more education as it pertains to nursing.. But nurses are attempting to become medical providers without "medical training" as it is known.

 

[prairiedog]

There is nothing wrong with more education as it pertains to nursing.. But nurses are attempting to become medical providers without "medical training" as it is known.

SO, what pertains to nursing? What is medical? What is AT? Over the years what was once done by MDs is now by nurses, Pharmacy and AT. Where do you draw the line in education? Who dictates what is taught by whom?

 

[lawguil]

SO, what pertains to nursing? What is medical? What is AT? Over the years what was once done by MDs is now by nurses, Pharmacy and AT. Where do you draw the line in education? Who dictates what is taught by whom?

good question?