A DVM Regrets Going to Vet School

[drwill]

I regret going into veterinary medicine. If my post can save even one student from making the same mistake I made I will consider this missive worth it. I am a DVM from a top vet school and I have significant practice experience. Veterinary medicine is a second rate profession. The training I received was second rate. When I graduated I had never seen an actual canine cesarean section (let alone done one), done a spay, treated a fracture, performed a blood transfusion, tapped a joint, performed an epidural, biopsied a tumor, managed any poisoning, the list is endless. In spite of this woeful preparation I passed my state licensing exams with high marks, testimony to how inadequate the professional licensing system is. The practice of veterinary medicine is likewise second rate. I recall with horror the mistreatment of animals by veterinarians I have witnessed in school and in practice. I saw one veterinarian throw a German shepherd across a room. Veterinary practice quality overall is about the same as human medicine in developing countries. The profession has still not worked out how to reliably measure blood pressure in cats and dogs. That’s pretty basic. Chronic feline kidney disease was the leading cause of death in older cats 30 years ago, and it still is today. Where has the profession been in determining the cause? The average practice does not do; adequate monitoring during anesthesia, skin testing for allergies, endoscopy, bronchoalveolar lavage, intraocular pressure monitoring, liver biopsy, kidney biopsy, bone marrow aspirates, measure or even calculate creatinine clearance, perform therapeutic drug monitoring…., I am getting exhausted and depressed. Since it is as hard to get into veterinary school as medical school, unless you really, really want to work with animals specifically, go into human medicine. I wished I had.

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[millerhighlight]

Look at the bright side. You don't have to deal with as much red tape. How many of your clients have pet insurance? You bill most of them fee for service, I'd bet. The grass is always greener on the other side.. Cheer up mate.

 

[Bearby]

How many human GPs do you see doing those procedures that you listed?

 

[Mizzou2014]

Those are facts of the veterinary profession. I wonder how you were not aware of them before choosing your career. Perhaps I've been unusually lucky in the mentor department but I've been told since I was 10 or so that "you learn 98% of the knowledge and technical skills you need after you graduate from vet school". Is this a good thing? Well no, in a perfect world it would not be the case. Tuition would also be 1/8th what it is and we would all be able to afford internship and residencies before heading out on our own. Unfortunately life is not perfect.

As far as out knowledge...we have much to learn. Our profession is not as gifted as human medicine in terms of money and resources. If these things are tormenting you so badly why not go into research and start trying to change them? Why not start a mentoring program at your clinic to try and help fresh grads through the hardship/scary period everyone goes through?

I am not a vet yet but it seems like if you're that unhappy you should a)try to be the change you want to see or b) find a new profession. I agree its never a bad thing to bring professional issues up to prospective students however.

 

[lei325]

If you're so unimpressed with diagnostics, or with treatment of a certain disease, why don't you look into researching the issue? It's obvious you don't like the day-to-day of veterinary practice, then change it. Veterinary research is a very important aspect of veterinary medicine, AND human medicine. If you don't like what you're doing, change it. No one ever said you had to stay at a veterinary practice.

 

[breenie]

IWhen I graduated I had never [...] done a spay

... where did you go to school?

 

[lareinesoleil]

Look at the bright side. You don't have to deal with as much red tape. How many of your clients have pet insurance? You bill most of them fee for service, I'd bet. The grass is always greener on the other side.. Cheer up mate.

This is also possibly part of the reason some of the things the OP mentioned aren't done: clients have to pay for everything 100% out of pocket. Chronic kidney disease, for example: not a lot of people have 10k (or whatever) for a kidney transplant for their cat. In some cases, pet insurance would actually be a good thing as long as it doesn't get to the extent of actually limiting what we can do (like human insurance can).

I think it's becoming less and less of a "second rate profession"; actually, as time goes on. Compare Veterinary Medicine to what it was 100 years ago, 50, 20. I think the standards are getting higher. They are of course not as high as the standards for human medicine. But we're getting closer, as people begin to think of their pets more like family.

I'm sure human medical graduates feel the same way when they graduate: "OMG I know nothing." I wonder if in the future, residencies or internships will be required for us too. I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[jtom]

I have heard from one other recent grad that she did not perform a spay during school.

I have talked to many other recent grads of several different schools and a common issue I have seen with many of them is the lack of hands on experience, as in the rotations the residents get all the experience, the techs perform blood draw/cathertization, and the students more or less watch them. I have seen this first hand at my IS school which I have visited a few times. The other issue I have is the lack of cases which also make me nervous but I think that is a common problem at all schools with the economy. Lastly, I do think alot of recent grads do not get alot of experience performing routine procedures as I have seen many struggle with duties I would hope they would be able to perform at least to an acceptable level.

I think the level of experience you get though also correlates to how much initiative you show during school. I think if you put yourself out there in rotations, such as arriving early to participate in pre-op procedures etc so you can perform them yourself instead of the tech, you could gain more confidence.

Having said that, I cannot see myself doing anything else and I will pursue veterinary medicine. I am aware of the various issues in this field and am undeterred.

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

So, I understand some of your frusturations but I think that the AVMA is actually addressing some of these concerns. In order for schools to become or maintain their accredidation they now have to "prove" that their students have done what the AVMA considers to be a core set of competencies ... we have to get checekd off, while in clinics that we've done X skill in order to graduate and all of these records will be available to the AVMA for review. This is a new change that schools are just beginning to work on implementing.

There is also a lot to be said to taking initiative to do things (yes, I realize that they are client dogs and you will be doing a lot of retracting and sponging in a complicated orthopedic surgery ... but if you plan on doing these you will probably be or should be following with a residency) and smartly planning your externships. Personally I want to be 100% comfortable doing OHEs ... so I'm scheduling an externship at a high throughput Spay-Neuter clinic for 3 weeks. OHEs all day every day. One of our students just got back from it and she now does dog spays in 13 minutes flat with confidence and without rushing.

And, when a number of my friends reached impending graduation and felt like they needed that extra experience they went on to do an internship, or, made sure that they found a practice with sufficient mentorship for the new grads.

I do wish that we had internship/residency programs that were federally supplemented (and thus pay better and make them easier to afford after our staggering tuition bills) ... but that's just not where we are today. It's never where we were.

I'm sorry that you are regretting the profession, and you do address some real issues and concerns of new graduates ... perhaps you could consider a job with better mentorship to help you gain these competencies, an internship?

 

[jtom]

I agree that you have to gain additional experience outside of the vet school. For instance, I will be working under my current boss during the summers/winter breaks I have off during vet school and hopefully sometimes throughout the semester.

I dont consider this to be recommended, I feel it is required.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

The training I received was second rate. When I graduated I had never seen an actual canine cesarean section (let alone done one), done a spay, treated a fracture, performed a blood transfusion, tapped a joint, performed an epidural, biopsied a tumor, managed any poisoning, the list is endless.

That's what happens when you go to troll school instead of vet school.

And for those taken aback: Currently, veterinary students will perform solo, under the guidance of the attending vet, or are at the very least the chief assistant in, most if not all the techniques mentioned. I can't think of a school that does not teach students spays. I did every single one of those in school, many of them (spays, epidurals, biopsies, joint taps) multiple times.

 

[rubygirl]

I agree that you have to gain additional experience outside of the vet school. For instance, I will be working under my current boss during the summers/winter breaks I have off during vet school and hopefully sometimes throughout the semester.

I dont consider this to be recommended, I feel it is required.

i agree with this also at least at cornell, and i am pretty sure all the schools that i interviewed at, there are a million and 1 clubs you can join, the Bovine practitioners club for instance gives you experience with rectal palpation labs out side of class just by joining the club and going to the events. Over all if the only thing you do in vet school is read the books and go to class your right you wont be prepared to practice the day you graduate, but instead you will have to catch up to the people around you who have spent there free time at spay neuters, or doing palpations outside of class, because no text can tell you exactly how to do that stuff with out experiencing it a ton of times. unfortunately there isnt enough time in 4 years to teach us every thing we need to learn from the books, and get the hands on experience to do these procedures in our sleep. however, i have seen a couple of fresh out of vet school vets that are the best veterinarians i have ever met, and being able to ask when you are unsure is one of the best things that you can possibly do to get ahead and learn more.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I understand where your frustration is coming from, but I don't quite understand what you expected in the first place. I feel like a lot of what you're frustrated with are the inherent limitations of the profession, and I'm really sorry you feel so horribly about them.

I am a DVM from a top vet school and I have significant practice experience.

Were things different at the practices you got experience at before you went to vet school? Or were these things that you did not know to think about before committing to vet school? Where was the disconnect?

Veterinary medicine is a second rate profession. The training I received was second rate.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but I'm not sure it's something that can change for the better, or even should be. Vet med is always going to be a second rate profession because let's face it, animals are always going to be "second rate" citizens of the world. I don't see that changing anytime soon (nor would I want it to). The profession is at the mercy of clients' disposable income, and what their pets mean to them in their lives. I am not about to demand to the gov't that they raise taxes/appropriate funding to ensure world class medical treatment of animals. We can't all work/train to the level of an MD cardiothoracic surgeon. I'm actually pretty surprised at how specialized/trained one can actually be in the veterinary profession if one wanted to be. I mean, we all could try to specialize if we wanted to with further training.But as for the DVM degree, I think schools do the best they can with the limited time/resources they have to train vet students. It is only 4 short years beyond undergrad (and quite frankly, 4 years is not that short!), and thankfully so. Most of us can barely afford that with the salary we would be making... which again is to a large extent at the mercy of the average joe pet owner. And perhaps we could cram more practical experience/specialized training in vet school if we were required to have the basic sciences down cold before entering vet school... but obviously that would have major drawbacks, and isn't really realistic to implement.

The practice of veterinary medicine is likewise second rate. I recall with horror the mistreatment of animals by veterinarians I have witnessed in school and in practice. I saw one veterinarian throw a German shepherd across a room. Veterinary practice quality overall is about the same as human medicine in developing countries. The profession has still not worked out how to reliably measure blood pressure in cats and dogs. That’s pretty basic. Chronic feline kidney disease was the leading cause of death in older cats 30 years ago, and it still is today. Where has the profession been in determining the cause? The average practice does not do; adequate monitoring during anesthesia, skin testing for allergies, endoscopy, bronchoalveolar lavage, intraocular pressure monitoring, liver biopsy, kidney biopsy, bone marrow aspirates, measure or even calculate creatinine clearance, perform therapeutic drug monitoring…., I am getting exhausted and depressed.

Again, I just don't see how things could be all that different... Pets are simply animals that people own (and love in many cases), that need "humane" care. The fact of the matter is that this "humane" care does not mean sick pets need a full medical work up with the highest standard of care. This does make it medically not as interesting to veterinarians as it could be, but I don't think most of us go into vet med expecting it to be. I'm not sure about the throwing animals thing... but there are bad people in every profession. I'm pretty sure that's not acceptable practice... and wouldn't base the profession on that.

As for the chronic feline kidney disease thing, there are definitely research groups that have been studying that like crazy. But just as cancer and heart disease are still top killers of people just as they have been years ago... these changes/discoveries don't happen that fast. The added challenge to vet med is that vet research is is also "second rate" as you call it, due to lack of funding/manpower. I don't think that makes it a horrible profession. Clinicians are treating the best they can with the limited knowledge they have, and researchers are adding to that knowledge the best they can with the limited resources they have. What more can we ask of either? Obviously, there are clinicians out there that aren't doing the best they can, but vet med is for the most part a self-policing profession... and there are always going to be major pros/cons to that.

Since it is as hard to get into veterinary school as medical school, unless you really, really want to work with animals specifically, go into human medicine. I wished I had.

I'm really sorry that you feel this way after all the years of hard work you must've put in. I sincerely hope that I don't feel that way once I'm out in practice. Even if I do though, I don't think I'll regret not having gone into human medicine. Just the thought of human medicine makes my stomach churn.

 

[breenie]

That's what happens when you go to troll school instead of vet school.

And for those taken aback: Currently, veterinary students will perform solo, under the guidance of the attending vet, or are at the very least the chief assistant in, most if not all the techniques mentioned. I can't think of a school that does not teach students spays. I did every single one of those in school, many of them (spays, epidurals, biopsies, joint taps) multiple times.

Yeah... I don't know of a school that doesn't have you do one spay, at least. :O

 

[Minnerbelle]

Yeah... I don't know of a school that doesn't have you do one spay, at least. :O

I don't remember where it was, but I remember listening to the curriculum being described during a tour/interview and I'm pretty sure there was at least one place where I was told that you might not necessarily be able to do a spay (like, you and the other 2 people in your group that alternate between surgeon/anesthesiologist/assistant will usually get a set number of animals to do, but you may not get a female when you are the surgeon).

That being said though... even if I were in that situation, I think I'd be very disappointed in myself if I let myself graduate without finding the opportunity to practice a few spays outside of school. There are plenty of opportunities out there nowadays. And I feel like, that's one of the main purposes of requiring that students come in having had loads of vet/animal experiences. Not only does it increase the odds that they know what they're getting themselves into, it allows for schools for select students that know how to seek opportunities for themselves.

 

[Packers04]

Boo hoo

 

[awaring1]

Grumpy vet is grumpy.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Boo hoo

 

[DVMDream]

The average practice does not do; adequate monitoring during anesthesia, skin testing for allergies, endoscopy, bronchoalveolar lavage, intraocular pressure monitoring, liver biopsy, kidney biopsy, bone marrow aspirates, measure or even calculate creatinine clearance, perform therapeutic drug monitoring….

Really, because I would consider the clinic I have worked at "average" and I have seen every single one of the above procedures performed at least once. Also, please tell me how many clients you have met that are willing to hand over the extended amounts of money it takes to properly diagnose and treat a very ill pet, there are not many. I have been cursed out by more clients than I can count because we will not fill their pet's medication without a follow-up exam and bloodwork to monitor how the medication is working (regardless of the fact that it has been a year since we have seen the pet, the o just wants the meds). The majority of people do not have the money to be doing extensive diagnostics, surgeries, or treatments on their pets. I have even been cursed out by people when we charge them an exam with their vaccination because they "don't have that kind of money". Maybe if the vet profession became more like human medicine and we could just bill an insurance company to pay for everything than we could do all the diagnostics we want. But, be careful of that because doctors often times can't get insurance companies to approve of certain procedures; it will likely be just as difficult for a veterinarian to get an insurance company to approve of that much needed diagnostic test.

You either sound like you did not realize what you were getting into before you got involved and are now bitter. OR you are just a troll. I think I will go with the latter.

 

[awaring1]

 

[JumpHigherLivie]

You know, I was actually just speaking with some incoming first years today ... a large part of veterinary school (in my opinion) can be what you make of it. You can go to wet labs, volunteer in various wards during the school year, seek out summer opportunities (they ARE out there!), and when you're on clinics ASK to be shown how to do something or to be helped do something, BE an active learner ... or you can go to class, take your exams, only set foot in the clinic once you reach clinics and then take a passive roll in learning. both ways will result (most likely) in graduation and passing boards... the former may even result in a higher GPA, but one of those will result in a more capable veterinarian.

I'm not saying that the OP is the passive individual ... just using this as a word of caution/encouragement for other vet students and future vet students.

 

[LetItSnow]

Veterinary medicine is a second rate profession.

I'm not sure what that means, exactly. Can you give some examples of "first-rate" and "second-rate" professions? No offense intended; I just don't know what it means for a profession to be "second rate".

 

[lunajett]

And I feel like, that's one of the main purposes of requiring that students come in having had loads of vet/animal experiences. Not only does it increase the odds that they know what they're getting themselves into, it allows for schools for select students that know how to seek opportunities for themselves.

But I think that is one of the problems I would agree with the OP on - schools DON'T currently require "loads" of experience to get in. I forget just what it was when I was applying, but it seemed like most schools only required around 150 hours of "veterinary" experience as a minimum. Applicants can meet that doing a few weeks of shadowing or volunteering at a clinic or whatever, and depending on the place they may get zero hand-on experience doing any clinical procedures. And like the OP said, we typically don't really get to do a lot of hands-on stuff even during clinical year. People can come in with almost no experience, gain a ton of book knowledge, and still graduate as full DVMs with almost no real experience. I think schools are doing a disservice to the profession by letting people in too early, too young, with minimal experience. Why not require 500 or even 1,000 hours of experience? If one is really committed to the profession and becoming the best, it should not be a huge hurdle to work full-time for six months or a year under the supervision of a vet. It would only make us all better students and better vets when we graduate.

 

[LetItSnow]

But I think that is one of the problems I would agree with the OP on - schools DON'T currently require "loads" of experience to get in. I forget just what it was when I was applying, but it seemed like most schools only required around 150 hours of "veterinary" experience as a minimum.

They do and they don't, right? I mean, they may technically "allow" a bottom end of 150 or something like that, but what's the nat'l average for experience? Didn't I read a year or two ago it was something like 2,000 hours?

So regardless of schools' requirements (assuming I'm not making that number up), it appears to me that most students are coming in with considerable experience.

 

[Trilt]

But I think that is one of the problems I would agree with the OP on - schools DON'T currently require "loads" of experience to get in. I forget just what it was when I was applying, but it seemed like most schools only required around 150 hours of "veterinary" experience as a minimum. Applicants can meet that doing a few weeks of shadowing or volunteering at a clinic or whatever, and depending on the place they may get zero hand-on experience doing any clinical procedures. And like the OP said, we typically don't really get to do a lot of hands-on stuff even during clinical year. People can come in with almost no experience, gain a ton of book knowledge, and still graduate as full DVMs with almost no real experience. I think schools are doing a disservice to the profession by letting people in too early, too young, with minimal experience. Why not require 500 or even 1,000 hours of experience? If one is really committed to the profession and becoming the best, it should not be a huge hurdle to work full-time for six months or a year under the supervision of a vet. It would only make us all better students and better vets when we graduate.

Except the moment I work full-time instead of attend school, I lose my health care benefits, and quite possibly eligibility for my dad's GI bill to be transferred to me... which sucks.

And with that said, the minimum GPAs at most schools are around 3.0s... and there aren't that many people who get into vet school around that area. I think the national average is around 3.5-3.6? Likewise, I don't think many people get into vet school with only minimal amounts of experience. And I also don't think that hours of experience = knowledge of the profession. I have friends who have been working at vet clinics since they were legal and they don't have a clue about larger issues within the field.

 

[lunajett]

So regardless of schools' requirements (assuming I'm not making that number up), it appears to me that most students are coming in with considerable experience.

I agree *most* are, but I know just from what I've seen at my school many do get in with close to the min experience, and they can compensate for that in the application process with close to 4.0 GPA or stellar GRE. So essentially, you can be really really smart and get in and get through and end up as a DVM, all with very little practical experience. Being brilliant is great - I wish I was - but it's still going to be a very steep learning curve after graduation if you don't at least have a start at solid clinical skills going in.

 

[theunraveler]

I regret going into veterinary medicine. If my post can save even one student from making the same mistake I made I will consider this missive worth it. I am a DVM from a top vet school and I have significant practice experience. Veterinary medicine is a second rate profession. The training I received was second rate. When I graduated I had never seen an actual canine cesarean section (let alone done one), done a spay, treated a fracture, performed a blood transfusion, tapped a joint, performed an epidural, biopsied a tumor, managed any poisoning, the list is endless. In spite of this woeful preparation I passed my state licensing exams with high marks, testimony to how inadequate the professional licensing system is. The practice of veterinary medicine is likewise second rate. I recall with horror the mistreatment of animals by veterinarians I have witnessed in school and in practice. I saw one veterinarian throw a German shepherd across a room. Veterinary practice quality overall is about the same as human medicine in developing countries. The profession has still not worked out how to reliably measure blood pressure in cats and dogs. That’s pretty basic. Chronic feline kidney disease was the leading cause of death in older cats 30 years ago, and it still is today. Where has the profession been in determining the cause? The average practice does not do; adequate monitoring during anesthesia, skin testing for allergies, endoscopy, bronchoalveolar lavage, intraocular pressure monitoring, liver biopsy, kidney biopsy, bone marrow aspirates, measure or even calculate creatinine clearance, perform therapeutic drug monitoring…., I am getting exhausted and depressed. Since it is as hard to get into veterinary school as medical school, unless you really, really want to work with animals specifically, go into human medicine. I wished I had.

Hahaha sucks to be you....

My experience of veterinary medicine so far is contrary to yours, I have done a spay, I have done an epidural etc. Maybe the quality of vet medicine is better in Australia than in America?

 

[Packers04]

I think that what you do with your time off while in vet school is most important with regards to your technical skills. In my case I hope I'm able to have a job in a vet clinic (whether it be paid or unpaid) in the summer months to gain experience of the essential fundamentals. I also hope with being a vet student that I will be able to assist more on procedures in the clinic and learn those important lessons I wont learn while in vet school. So as someone said earlier it is what you make of your own unique situation.

 

[lunajett]

Except the moment I work full-time instead of attend school, I lose my health care benefits, and quite possibly eligibility for my dad's GI bill to be transferred to me... which sucks.

And with that said, the minimum GPAs at most schools are around 3.0s... and there aren't that many people who get into vet school around that area. I think the national average is around 3.5-3.6? Likewise, I don't think many people get into vet school with only minimal amounts of experience. And I also don't think that hours of experience = knowledge of the profession. I have friends who have been working at vet clinics since they were legal and they don't have a clue about larger issues within the field.

Well, everything's a tradeoff. Experience could be volunteer, if that would allow you to keep whatever benefits. My point is just that I think the experience requirements for admission should be increased, whether it is paid FT or PT or volunteer, just MORE of it. The academic standards are already very high, I don't think there is any problem with dumb people getting in to vet school. But there are definitely inexperienced people getting in, and ending up either regretting their decision, wasting their time and a seat in the school, or ending up really struggling more than they should once they get out.

You're right that experience does not necessarily equal knowledge of profession, but I think the "knowledge" part is a lot easier to gain in school than the "experience" part.

 

[Lab Vet]

The individual who begun this thread is to be treated with respect for the perspective he/she has shared. The career one often views with 'rose colored glasses' while applying to a profession can change (either rapidly or slowly) throughout the training process. Even with significant experience earned before entering school, you're still not in the position to be fully responsible for your own professional, personal, and financial success- until you graduate and officially enter 'the working world.'

Just like all of us 'hopefuls' here, the initiator of this thread obviously had all of the academic/experience requirements to be admitted to veterinary school. He/she was also academically talented, as he/she completed the program, became licensed, and is now working as an actual vet- not just gaining experience prior to school, but working in the profession itself. This person has actually done what many of us who post here hope to do.

This individual has a valid perspective, one to be respected and contemplated. When I've talked with folks about their jobs before, my second question (after 'what do you love about your job?') is 'what do you NOT like about this job, career, profession, etc.' No job is perfect. Let's also not forget that, at the end of the day it's still work (not play). If one can't handle the most difficult aspects of the work (I call these 'deal breakers') it's probably best to consider another line of work. Deal breakers are different things for different people. What may be exhilarating for you may be absolutely mind-numbing for me. Unfortunately, one doesn't often find out what one's deal breakers are until they experience them first hand. By that time, there's a lot of investment that has been made, and it's very difficult (practically and emotionally) to overcome the inertia required to make a change. Don't underestimate this. The scales can often fall from the idealist's eyes, painting a very different picture of the career they thought they were entering. It happens more often than you might think- even in this, a highly prized and sought after profession.

I think that our original poster gave a pointed reality check, at least from the perspective of his/her own personal experience in the line of work we are all considering. This is valid, folks, and pretty common out there in the working world. Not everything is sunshine and roses, nor puppies and butterflies.

 

[Trilt]

Well, everything's a tradeoff. Experience could be volunteer, if that would allow you to keep whatever benefits. My point is just that I think the experience requirements for admission should be increased, whether it is paid FT or PT or volunteer, just MORE of it. The academic standards are already very high, I don't think there is any problem with dumb people getting in to vet school. But there are definitely inexperienced people getting in, and ending up either regretting their decision, wasting their time and a seat in the school, or ending up really struggling more than they should once they get out.

You're right that experience does not necessarily equal knowledge of profession, but I think the "knowledge" part is a lot easier to gain in school than the "experience" part.

Eh, I was just responding to your specific example - throwing it in there that requiring that sort of work would have side effects. With that said, I know my in-state does require >400 hours to even apply, so perhaps it is something that is slowly happening. I do believe that people generally have significantly more hours than required minimums when they are accepted already, though, so I don't think that making it "law" is particularly necessary.

With that said, I was about to throw an anecdote about someone I know applying here (NC State) with relatively low/not very diverse experiences but a very high GPA and not getting in... but she's actually attending Kansas as a first-year right now, so it proves your point a bit. ;p

 

[cowgirla]

The individual who begun this thread is to be treated with respect for the perspective he/she has shared. The career one often views with 'rose colored glasses' while applying to a profession can change (either rapidly or slowly) throughout the training process. Even with significant experience earned before entering school, you're still not in the position to be fully responsible for your own professional, personal, and financial success- until you graduate and officially enter 'the working world.'

Just like all of us 'hopefuls' here, the initiator of this thread obviously had all of the academic/experience requirements to be admitted to veterinary school. He/she was also academically talented, as he/she completed the program, became licensed, and is now working as an actual vet- not just gaining experience prior to school, but working in the profession itself. This person has actually done what many of us who post here hope to do.

This individual has a valid perspective, one to be respected and contemplated. When I've talked with folks about their jobs before, my second question (after 'what do you love about your job?') is 'what do you NOT like about this job, career, profession, etc.' No job is perfect. Let's also not forget that, at the end of the day it's still work (not play). If one can't handle the most difficult aspects of the work (I call these 'deal breakers') it's probably best to consider another line of work. Deal breakers are different things for different people. What may be exhilarating for you may be absolutely mind-numbing for me. Unfortunately, one doesn't often find out what one's deal breakers are until they experience them first hand. By that time, there's a lot of investment that has been made, and it's very difficult (practically and emotionally) to overcome the inertia required to make a change. Don't underestimate this. The scales can often fall from the idealist's eyes, painting a very different picture of the career they thought they were entering. It happens more often than you might think- even in this, a highly prized and sought after profession.

I think that our original poster gave a pointed reality check, at least from the perspective of his/her own personal experience in the line of work we are all considering. This is valid, folks, and pretty common out there in the working world. Not everything is sunshine and roses, nor puppies and butterflies.

I was about to post the same thing.
Members of VIN frequently look down on SDN for just this reason-- the lack of respect for those who try to inject some reality or dissenting opinions. VIN vets have really been stepping up their efforts to contribute here lately-- let's try to keep a good thing going and not lose their input and opinions. I see no reason to believe the OP is troll. There are unhappy people in every career field. Maybe we'd all like to believe the job is puppies and kitties for everyone, the fact is, that's simply not true. Those of you who are vet students, check out the VIN threads on From the Trenches, Professional Stresses, etc, and you'll see quite a few stories that echo that of the OP when it comes to job dissatisfaction.

 

[jmo1012]

I was about to post the same thing.
Members of VIN frequently look down on SDN for just this reason-- the lack of respect for those who try to inject some reality or dissenting opinions. VIN vets have really been stepping up their efforts to contribute here lately-- let's try to keep a good thing going and not lose their input and opinions. I see no reason to believe the OP is troll. There are unhappy people in every career field. Maybe we'd all like to believe the job is puppies and kitties for everyone, the fact is, that's simply not true. Those of you who are vet students, check out the VIN threads on From the Trenches, Professional Stresses, etc, and you'll see quite a few stories that echo that of the OP when it comes to job dissatisfaction.

to both of you! and i echo the statement about VIN too

 

[sunshinevet]

But I think that is one of the problems I would agree with the OP on - schools DON'T currently require "loads" of experience to get in. I forget just what it was when I was applying, but it seemed like most schools only required around 150 hours of "veterinary" experience as a minimum. Applicants can meet that doing a few weeks of shadowing or volunteering at a clinic or whatever, and depending on the place they may get zero hand-on experience doing any clinical procedures. And like the OP said, we typically don't really get to do a lot of hands-on stuff even during clinical year. People can come in with almost no experience, gain a ton of book knowledge, and still graduate as full DVMs with almost no real experience. I think schools are doing a disservice to the profession by letting people in too early, too young, with minimal experience. Why not require 500 or even 1,000 hours of experience? If one is really committed to the profession and becoming the best, it should not be a huge hurdle to work full-time for six months or a year under the supervision of a vet. It would only make us all better students and better vets when we graduate.

I've got to say I completely disagree with the idea of people requiring experience in clinical procedures to get into vet school. The experience people get prior to vet school should be about them exploring the profession and deciding if this is a route they really want to go down, NOT teaching them stuff vet school doesnt "have time" to teach them. Learning how to draw blood/catheterise/intubate etc should all be skills learnt in vet school - they should not be prereqs!

The way Australian schools get around not having enough teaching time (I dont know if they do this in the US) is we have to complete a set number of weeks in clinical and farm externships during our holidays in order to be able to graduate. We must complete 6 weeks on farms and 14 weeks in clinics (clinics start after 3rd year) where we also learn/practice basic practice skills, practice working up cases, perform consultations etc. Its always been like this so vets are pretty good at letting you do stuff in their clinics, and you can choose where you want to go - so vet students are also pretty good at passing on info about which clinics let you do heaps of stuff.

I dont know if that would work in the US, but I've got to say, I really do think that pre-vet school experience should be about being able to prove and articulate why you want to be part of this profession, not making up for shortcomings of veterinary education. And I think its also important to remember that human doctors, who, by the time they get to practice unsupervised and are fully "competent" have undergone 4 years of med school and ATLEAST 3 years of residency. We're not going to close that gap by having a "practical skills" requirement in admissions...

 

[laurafinn]

... where did you go to school?

To be fair, I've been told by more than one vet that the most surgery they got at school was half a spay. (These were graduates of US vet schools with very solid reputations.) It may be less common nowadays.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I was about to post the same thing.
Members of VIN frequently look down on SDN for just this reason-- the lack of respect for those who try to inject some reality or dissenting opinions. VIN vets have really been stepping up their efforts to contribute here lately-- let's try to keep a good thing going and not lose their input and opinions. I see no reason to believe the OP is troll. There are unhappy people in every career field. Maybe we'd all like to believe the job is puppies and kitties for everyone, the fact is, that's simply not true. Those of you who are vet students, check out the VIN threads on From the Trenches, Professional Stresses, etc, and you'll see quite a few stories that echo that of the OP when it comes to job dissatisfaction.

Intentional or not, it's a troll post.

The phrasing, word choice and overall content are hyperbolic. The experience presented is a worst case scenario described as a universal truth.

VIN can **** on the content over here all they want, but this post is laughable.

The doctors I work with gained the experiences the OP missed out on by seeking them out. A second rate student doesn't indicate a second rate profession.

 

[LetItSnow]

Well, everything's a tradeoff.

Exactly. And that was part of my point when I noted that the majority of people in vet school DO have the experience you think is important. Since that's already the case, why make it even more stringent? Keep in mind the tradeoff for what you're suggesting: you'll end up (significantly, I suspect) limiting diversity in vet schools. I suppose it's debatable whether that's a bad thing, but I certainly think it is.

 

[theunraveler]

This threadstarter comes in claiming to be a vet, but why should anyone take this person seriously? Is this person just some sore loser who couldnt get into vet school and cry sour grapes?

 

[StartingoverVet]

1) Regarding OP.... I am definitely one who thinks there are too many on SDN who only want to hear good things, BUT this OP seems to have been purposefully inflammatory in their writing. Honestly thought it was pre-allo poster trying to rile us up. Looks like a troll, smells like a trolll etc. And the ending to recommend going into human med just seems so ironic as how many human docs are so happy these days?

2) Regarding Lunajett's point regarding experience.....I completely disagree. As has been pointed out by our profs here, the top job of a practicing clinician (ex-surgery of course) is not to be a master manipulator of instruments, but to be able to use our brains to figure out the cause and treatment of disease. We have technicians to help us with the physical skills which will come over time. Otherwise, the 20 year tech would be seeing the patients. Of course we should all gain proficiency at the manual skills, and help our careers by honing them while in school, but becoming a vet is mainly mental not physical.

In addition, there are plenty of jobs in vet med that do not require a lot of those skills. Should you exclude people from vet school who may become researchers, pathologists, nutritionists because they aren't great at inserting a catheter? I think not!

And really, that is why many people go to internships after getting their degree.

 

[jtom]

Personally I believe that there should be a required number of hours that all applicants have to have in order to apply to vet schools. I know several schools do this but I think the number should be anywhere from 400-500 total hours.

To me if you have at least that many hours, you will hopefully know the advantages and disadvantages of the field. I have seen several applicants get in with 200 or less hours because they have very high gpa's and gre's. I believe that these individuals might regret purusing vetmed because they did not properly expose themselves before applying and might concentrate on getting the highest grades in vet school and not so much on other skills. Granted it does depend on which part of vetmed you are pursuing but assuming the average applicant desires general practice, having little experience before and during vet school could set you up for disappointment after graduation.

As for people who say the vet should focus on curing the issue and not the physical aspects of the profession I disagree. I cannot tell you how many clients we have lost because the vet has difficulty performing routine tech procedures in front of the client. Clients immediately question the vets competency if they cannot perform these tasks, whether it is true or not. Im not saying vets have to be as good as a tech with years of experience but you have to be able to perform these tasks decently well and I feel if there is a student who focused everything on grades in undergrad and vet school, they might get a rude awakening in general practice.

 

[rubygirl]

i think that it is really really important that the experience requirement gets looked at, there is at least one girl that said she had no actual clinical experience, maybe a little shadowing here and there, and research. In my opinion doing research on animals tells you nothing about practicing medicine. IMHO every student should be required to put in at least 500 hours WORKING AT A CLINIC in order to understand if they really want to do this, i ad well over a thousand hours at 1 clinic from working part time summers for 2 years, at 1 clinic then about a thousand more at another clinic working part time during the school year, it is possible to get the experience hours without taking time off from school. now that i am starting school i have a leg up on a bunch of classmates because i spent the last 4 years discussing diagnoses and treatments with clients, i can explain why it is vary important that we do something that may be a little costly to help there pet, and i also learned that life sucks sometimes and a pet still dies at the end of a heroic surgery or that the o may not care we can fix it and rather let the pet die or only treat the symptoms. You dont have to take time off from school but you do have to try no its not easy getting a job no ever said it was but sitting back and observing from a distance at a clinic isnt going to tell you anything about the profession either. 500 hours is great but only if you did more then occasionally draw up a vaccine or wipe down a table

 

[nohika]

i think that it is really really important that the experience requirement gets looked at, there is at least one girl that said she had no actual clinical experience, maybe a little shadowing here and there, and research. In my opinion doing research on animals tells you nothing about practicing medicine. IMHO every student should be required to put in at least 500 hours WORKING AT A CLINIC in order to understand if they really want to do this, i ad well over a thousand hours at 1 clinic from working part time summers for 2 years, at 1 clinic then about a thousand more at another clinic working part time during the school year, it is possible to get the experience hours without taking time off from school. now that i am starting school i have a leg up on a bunch of classmates because i spent the last 4 years discussing diagnoses and treatments with clients, i can explain why it is vary important that we do something that may be a little costly to help there pet, and i also learned that life sucks sometimes and a pet still dies at the end of a heroic surgery or that the o may not care we can fix it and rather let the pet die or only treat the symptoms. You dont have to take time off from school but you do have to try no its not easy getting a job no ever said it was but sitting back and observing from a distance at a clinic isnt going to tell you anything about the profession either. 500 hours is great but only if you did more then occasionally draw up a vaccine or wipe down a table

Yeah, but that's not fair to those who have interests outside of general practice. Should we ban those that want to go into research because they didn't volunteer in a practice? I think Mirabelle was one who is research-based but didn't volunteer much. There's a Davis c/o 2013 I think? person who wants to go into lab animal medicine. I'm leaning more towards research myself. Most of the people who were able to get into vet school were able to convince the schools that they knew what they were getting into. That's half the battle right there. And right now in the economy most places aren't hiring. Plus there are several states that limit those "clinical skills" that you want to vet techs. I believe NY is one of those, actually?

 

[scb44f]

i think that it is really really important that the experience requirement gets looked at, there is at least one girl that said she had no actual clinical experience, maybe a little shadowing here and there, and research. In my opinion doing research on animals tells you nothing about practicing medicine. IMHO every student should be required to put in at least 500 hours WORKING AT A CLINIC in order to understand if they really want to do this, i ad well over a thousand hours at 1 clinic from working part time summers for 2 years, at 1 clinic then about a thousand more at another clinic working part time during the school year, it is possible to get the experience hours without taking time off from school. now that i am starting school i have a leg up on a bunch of classmates because i spent the last 4 years discussing diagnoses and treatments with clients, i can explain why it is vary important that we do something that may be a little costly to help there pet, and i also learned that life sucks sometimes and a pet still dies at the end of a heroic surgery or that the o may not care we can fix it and rather let the pet die or only treat the symptoms. You dont have to take time off from school but you do have to try no its not easy getting a job no ever said it was but sitting back and observing from a distance at a clinic isnt going to tell you anything about the profession either. 500 hours is great but only if you did more then occasionally draw up a vaccine or wipe down a table

I agree that it would be nice to have so much work experience, but it is ridiculous to require that of applicants. I do think you can learn about the profession without getting totally involved (e.g. by getting a job in a clinic). Sure, you may not have the skills like blood draws, but you still learn the soft skills (like how the vet actually communicates to clients), and you are still able to ask questions (like how the vet came to that conclusion/treatment/diagnosis).

As far as that person who had research but little clinical experience... It takes all types, right? Sure, maybe she doesn't know as much about private practice as someone who worked in a clinic for years, but I sure as heck don't know much about research, which is a key aspect of the profession. If you're going to require clinical experience, then should we require research too? Even then, there are more sides to the story of vet med than just clinical experience and research, so where does this requirement list stop?

I'm not disagreeing with the number here, just the suggestion that it must be work experience in a clinical setting.

In all, I appreciate the views of someone who's been through it, but I can't say enough how important I think it is for an individual to take some initiative and get involved so they can avoid not knowing skills x, y, and z. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing residency (or internship or some other position under a mentor-type) become a requirement for us in order to learn what 1 or 2 years of clinics couldn't teach us, and to become more confident in practicing veterinary medicine.

 

[Lab Vet]

I'm one of those folks who doesn't have a boat load of traditional practice experience. I spent one summer, over ten years ago, shadowing in a local small animal clinic. Two summers later (the summer home from college my Freshman year), I spent two months shadowing/helping out at the large animal hospital connected to the area's veterinary school. The remainder of my 'clinical' experience, greater than 10 years of continual work with animals, has been acquired in a research setting. For those of you who don't have extensive experience in animal research, you may be surprised what sort of experience you can acquire. As for species diversity, I've worked with horses, lizards, alligators, snakes, fish, sheep, goats, rabbits, and rodents- all in a research setting. I've drawn blood, given injections, performed survival surgery, conducted echocardiography, etc.- all in a research setting. I've interacted extensively with clinicians (lab animal vets) on all of these projects. There's TONS that you can do out there with a veterinary degree that has nothing to do with private practice. While working on my reptile projects, I enlisted the help of exotic animal pathologists to consult on specific cases. For those of you who suggested that the OP of this thread work on 'researching' cures to ongoing problems that plague companion animals, who do you think does this work? I have no intention on entering private practice upon earning a veterinary degree. I'm very aware that I don't have the personality for it, nor am I particularly interested in the traditional practice setting. For those of you who have only garnered experience in private practice (be it small or large animal), I suggest that you expand your horizons a bit and see what other avenues are open to you with a DVM degree. Some vets I know have no contact with live animals as a part of their (senior ranked) careers- they're administrators, upholding the law, working to ensure that the research you call for is performed to the highest standards of animal welfare.

I definitely agree that folks applying to veterinary school should have animal/technical experience prior to applying (so the adcoms know that this person has thought about the decision, and that they have a decent (albeit not perfect) idea of what they're getting into). Some vet schools have the requirement that you should have experience in the area of vet med that interests you. I support this, but also know that people change their minds- especially when exposed to aspects of the veterinary profession that they didn't even know existed before attending school.

Bottom line- private practice isn't the only line of work out there for vets. Kudos for diversity!

 

[Trilt]

1) Regarding OP.... I am definitely one who thinks there are too many on SDN who only want to hear good things, BUT this OP seems to have been purposefully inflammatory in their writing. Honestly thought it was pre-allo poster trying to rile us up. Looks like a troll, smells like a trolll etc. And the ending to recommend going into human med just seems so ironic as how many human docs are so happy these days?

First post is inflammatory, never posts in rebuttal, etc - this screams trolling. If not, well, if someone wants their message to be taken seriously they should probably know how to convey it for their medium. I appreciate and highly respect the veterinarians - chickenlittle comes to mind - who come here and post thoughtful posts on relevant topics, not someone who comes here once and posts an inflammatory board, then disappears. Seriously.

Some vet schools have the requirement that you should have experience in the area of vet med that interests you. I support this, but also know that people change their minds- especially when exposed to aspects of the veterinary profession that they didn't even know existed before attending school.

Also adding to this is that some fields are really hard to get experience in! For example, I'm really quite interested in zoological medicine, but getting experience in the medical side of that field is a pain in the butt. My nearest zoo is an hour and a half-ish away, doesn't generally take volunteers for animal stuff (although I finangled a day of shadowing), and unless you have someone else supporting you - internships around the country are unpaid and very few have housing provided. For someone putting themselves through college, it is just unfeasible. It seems like a lot of doors open once you're in vet school, though, so that probably contributes to changes in profession choice.

 

[Minnerbelle]

i think that it is really really important that the experience requirement gets looked at, there is at least one girl that said she had no actual clinical experience, maybe a little shadowing here and there, and research. In my opinion doing research on animals tells you nothing about practicing medicine. IMHO every student should be required to put in at least 500 hours WORKING AT A CLINIC in order to understand if they really want to do this,

i'd say i'm one of the girls you describe above. i feel grossly underconfident in my clinical skills, though i feel like a beast in a research lab. that being said, on paper, i had over 6000 hrs of animal/vet experience combined at the time of application (between 2000-3000 being research). Of that, 750 was hands on clinical vet experience. Those hours did not include shadowing/cleaning/grunt work. It was 90% tech work. But it was only at one place, and it was at a shelter in-house clinic and spay/neuter clinic, so I only learned a very specific set of skills/protocols. E.g. I drew blood very regularly from the medial saphenous for FIV/FeLV tests... but I never really did any jugular draws or placed catheters. And the last time I set foot in the clinic was back in 2007. So even if there was a requirement, I would have passed it. So would many people who worked for 1000 hrs as a kennel assistant who never learned any tech skills. So where's the cutoff for this proposed requirement you have? How many clinics? What types of clinics? What animal species? How many/what skills do you need to know? How do you take into account that not everyone is going to become a SA practitioner?

As for the research thing, I'm not sure it's esp wise (or nice for that matter) to say that it is useless/teaches you nothing about practicing medicine. In this molecular age of diagnostics, it is absolutely useful to understand the advantages/limitations of different diagnostic tests. It's not something that you can understand easily by listening to professors lecture about it. Being a doctor is not just about the hands on things you do with the animals. A huge part of it is analyzing results. Just like a lot of other things, I don't think research is something that needs to be required of pre-vets since a lot of the necessary things can be learned in school... but I wouldn't completely knock it either. I worked in a clin/basic research lab over the summer that ran some diagnostic services. And man... some of the stuff that clinicians would call the lab to ask/say was mind-boggling. I think it's prob just as laughable as the vet that can't ever hit a vein. Point being, it takes all kinds, and not everyone is going to come in perfect at everything. I think what's more important is that each student recognizes what their weaknesses are coming in, and works on them to the best of their abilities.

[...] it is possible to get the experience hours without taking time off from school.

it's possible for some, but it really isn't for everyone. i agree that requiring a more stringent amount/type of experiences will really bring down the diversity of the profession.

and for those that are deficient coming in, i honestly don't think it's the end of the world (though it's very scary when you first start, and everyone around you seems so much more confident than you are about their tech knowledge). there's 2.5 years of pre-clinical years to play catch-up if you want to take advantage of it. i'm currently working like crazy to get myself into a GP clinic with good mentors so that i can learn. last year, i volunteered at least 8 hrs/week to gain experience on top of school and part-time job. over the summer, i worked 60-80 hrs/week mon-fri and then volunteered the entire weekend to gain more experience. i don't think i'm a lost cause just because i didn't have years of tech experience coming in. i just have some extra work to do to catch up. like everyone else says, vet school and your education is what you make of it.

dang, this post is getting super long, but as for the OP. Perhaps he/she is a troll, and the way the post was made was rather inflammatory, but I've worked with a wonderful veterinarian this summer that felt the same exact way. She started out in GP and hated it for the same reasons the OP stated. This vet is a very smart, hard working, and incredibly nice person. Thankfully, she found a much more fulfilling career track for herself.

 

[Trematode]

Also adding to this is that some fields are really hard to get experience in! For example, I'm really quite interested in zoological medicine, but getting experience in the medical side of that field is a pain in the butt. My nearest zoo is an hour and a half-ish away, doesn't generally take volunteers for animal stuff (although I finangled a day of shadowing), and unless you have someone else supporting you - internships around the country are unpaid and very few have housing provided. For someone putting themselves through college, it is just unfeasible. It seems like a lot of doors open once you're in vet school, though, so that probably contributes to changes in profession choice.

Depending on your location and financial situation, even racking up a thousand hours in a clinical setting can be difficult. Many of the clinics I have applied to are full of other students who are trying to get into vet school, so I have to get creative with my hours: apply for research positions, ask farmers if I can help out, et cetera. In every profession, you are going to get people who did not adequately prepare themselves beforehand. You are going to get people who get into the profession and end up disappointed or unhappy. It is a fact of life. I appreciate their opinions. In this case, I wonder why the poster stuck with this career when s/he realized it was not for him/her. Just my 2cents. Continue on with the debate. .

 

[Trematode]

I do not think that the amount of experience hours is significant. You can work 5,000 hours at an excellent practice and it may not prepare you for the mistreatment/mismanagement you may witness in vet school/internships/work force.

 

[libster06]

You know, I was actually just speaking with some incoming first years today ... a large part of veterinary school (in my opinion) can be what you make of it. You can go to wet labs, volunteer in various wards during the school year, seek out summer opportunities (they ARE out there!), and when you're on clinics ASK to be shown how to do something or to be helped do something, BE an active learner ... or you can go to class, take your exams, only set foot in the clinic once you reach clinics and then take a passive roll in learning. both ways will result (most likely) in graduation and passing boards... the former may even result in a higher GPA, but one of those will result in a more capable veterinarian.

Exactly. The opportunities are there. And I see students every day who do the very minimal amount to participate. Who don't get that this isn't a pre-vet club or a mickey mouse club, it's real life and the purpose of the wet labs/clubs/externships/internships/mentors/etc. is to supplement what vet school can't teach you. We go here for four years and you do learn a lot in clinics, but obviously you're not going to learn everything, or even CLOSE to everything.

The people who b*tch and moan about their lack of experience when they graduate and how disappointed they are that vet school didn't hand everything to them on a silver platter are the ones who sat back and did not take advantage of the opportunities outside of or in conjunction with vet school. No one is going to suddenly pop up and magically offer you guidance, experience and mentorship, without any networking or initial interest being shown on your part. it's up to you to take some initiative and seek them out. And if you don't want to fine, but don't blame the veterinary profession.

I sincerely hope anyone considering vet school who reads this can distinguish what is going on...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Intentional or not, it's a troll post.

The phrasing, word choice and overall content are hyperbolic. The experience presented is a worst case scenario described as a universal truth.