Abdominal Paracentesis -- just do diagnostic needle aspiration in ED?

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It's an easy enough procedure but finding the materials takes forever and it does suck up a lot of time. Wouldn't it be easier in a sepsis patient to just stick a needle in using the z technique and just get some fluid, send to the lab to look for infection, start your antibiotics, and let upstairs or IR do the therapeutic drainage?

Anyone do this?

Or will that be bad form?

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not bad form. just risk persistent ascites leak if z-technique fails to work as intended. with high ascites ressure.
 
Okay, so let's think through this. You're sitting there in the ER with your Uncle with the drinking problem. His belly is huge and now it hurts and he has a fever. He's been getting it drained every month or two, like 10 liters at a time to give him some relief. Now some pencil-neck ER resident comes in and says "I'm only going to take 100 CC off to run my tests, then you're going to have to have this procedure again in a couple of hours because I don't have 15 minutes to sit here filling vacuum bottles with you. That okay with you?"

What do you say? Exactly. Just do it right the first time so it doesn't have to be done twice.
 
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If you have a "football" adapter, you can hook it up to wall suction.

10 liters? No way am I sitting in the room for all that.
Do you know how many patients I could see in that time?

I've done the diagnostic only tap in the past.
It sucks that the patient may have to get stuck twice, but if you don't have time, you don't have time.
 
15 minutes to remove 10 liters, really? maybe with a 14g needle...or you could stick an 18 or 21g needle in with a 10 cc syringe, take the fluid, and go. A diagnostic tap can be much less involved than a therapeutic tap when you're talking 6+liters.
Unless you take the time to put in a PICC line in the ED for every patient you expect to be admitted to the hospital for more than a few days so they don't have to change the PIV every 3 days.
 
I generally do a diagnostic tap if concerned for SBP, with needle aspiration under US guidance. I don't have the time to drain 5+ Liters, on most of my shifts.
 
No I can count on one hand how many therapeutic taps I've done. Timing is one issue, I don't want to sit there when I'm the only attending in the ED filling up vacutainers. Secondly, don't want to deal with large volume paracentesis induced hypotension. Thirdly, don't want to set up a situation where the patient or their PMD/GI doc thinks it's acceptable to come to the ED for routine therapeutic paracentesis by complaining of belly distention or pain.
 
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If it is a volume problem (dyspnea, hypoxia, etc.) then I will take the volume off. If it is a question of infection I test for that with a diagnostic and do not always take lots of volume off. Way too time consuming.
 
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I only do diagnostic taps. There are a lot of places to get therapeutic taps done, and the ED is probably the least suited to it. WCI, how do you deal with the non-compliant patient who decides that it's easier to show up in the ED at 2am than make their scheduled GI appointment?
 
seems like a task that could be delegated to a medical student to sit and fill bottles and monitor BP (assuming supervision at the beginning to make sure tap is done correctly)
 
seems like a task that could be delegated to a medical student to sit and fill bottles and monitor BP (assuming supervision at the beginning to make sure tap is done correctly)
If you happen to have a med student handy
 
I have done a handful of therapeutic taps for patients I'm going to discharge. I just don't find that many scenarios where it is an ideal thing for me to do. I do tons of diagnostic taps.

- if they are asking me to do it because they have no outpatient follow up and no insurance: it seems like they'd be better served by admission. Otherwise I'm just putting a band-aid on a problem that is sure to worsen and continue. I've done them a disservice by being convenient. They also likely haven't had a ton of taps and ways to deal with the fluid shifts as an outpatient.

- if they're established and have taps once a week, etc then there is usually a better place to have this done (ie the office or rads with office f/u). If they are established and have had a ton of taps and there's extenuating circumstances (holiday weekend, etc) those are the ones I've made exceptions for.

- if I'm definitely admitting them either way, then I'll often take off how ever many liters is easy for me and or needed to help with acute resp distress or pain. That's never more than a few liters, mostly because I don't have time for it and I'm not doing anyone any huge favors as I'm not avoiding an admission or helping out the hospitalists (they just send them to rads anyway). But sure, if I'm sticking a needle in there anyway and I have a few bottles I don't mind taking a few liters off.
 
Wow! Lots of blowback on this one. A couple of observations.

I work in Utah. We don't have a lot of liver disease here. The liquor's all locked up in the state liquor stores and half the people don't drink at all. So ascites is actually fairly rare in my current job. Same as my previous military one. But yes, I know there are EDs where this comes in all the time.

Second, who says the MD has to be the one to change the suction containers? Don't you guys have techs/nurses? Can't you teach them to change a suction bottle? Or go see the patient next door between bottles. Or fire up the in-room computer and do some charting. You don't have to just sit there waiting for the bottle to fill. Where does that idea come from? And monitor BP? I've got a machine on the wall that does that. If the BP is low, an alarm goes off and I can go back in the room. You don't actually have to watch the cuff go up to monitor BP.

And so what if the GI docs want to send their patients in for this procedure. If I start getting 200 of them a day I'll hire a couple of techs to change vacuum bottles and make a killing. Last I checked I got paid to do this procedure. Come to think of it. Maybe we should just do 1 liter at a time and see them every day.... :)
 
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There's no exact answer here. The only thing you must do is pick up and treat the SBP, if present. But for all of you trying to determine if your work has list its "soul" and all that, think about it this way. Once a patient rolls into your ED with 10 L of fluid in his belly, he's probably got a life expectancy less than most of your cancer patients. Ever wonder why all these weird subspecialties keep popping up under EM, like Palliative Care, Pain, Sports Medicine and the like? It's because EM still has a soul, if you choose to see it. No one says you got to sit there holding vacutainers until you get 10L off someone's belly, if your department is imploding around you. But once you make the decision to stick an 18 gauge needle through a terminal liver disease patient's abdominal wall, would it hurt to draw enough fluid off so that you he can actually have some quality of life, during one of the next few of his last few weeks to live? Do you have to do it? No. Might you make a dying patient's life a little better for a few days or weeks until his next tap? Probably. If you just feel too best down most of the time, I get it, because I've been there 100 times over. But Medicine hasn't completely lost it's soul until you surrender it. Look for the "soul." It's right there in front of you more often than you might think.
 
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I don't mind doing therapeutic taps. I put in the catheter (using US to make sure clear underneath), put a big op-site dressing over the insertion site, and hook up the tubing to the drainage bag from the kit. I then walk away. The catheter site is sterile since it is covered, the fluid drains, I do frequent rechecks. When the bag is full and there is still a lot of fluid to drain, I just set a urinal in the center of a large emesis bucket and put the drain tube in the urinal (so if the urinal overflows, it does not run onto the floor), recheck frequently and change the urinal until fluid finished draining. Simple and not a big time suck....
 
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I have only done therapeutic taps if the patient is very symptomatic (very tense ascites, in a lot of pain or short of breath). Otherwise, only diagnostic. Its so much faster and easier- a little chlorhexidine, lidocaine, pop a needle in there using a Z-track and take off what I need. Medicine is always grateful. We don't have the fancy apparatus that GI uses. I'd have to make a makeshift drain using a TLC or something and it would take forever. If I were the patient I'd rather get stuck twice than have a bootleg/slow therapeutic tap
 
It's too bad you can't daisy chain a bunch of vacuum containers together...
 
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