Accelerated PA to DO Program Waives MCATs

I don't think it's a very good idea to be honest. If you want to go to medical school you should expect to take medical school level classes. I took an intense microbio course while in undergrad but I don't expect my micro class in med school to be waived because I had previously taken it.

Also, I don't agree with avoiding the MCAT in this situation or in the BA/MD 6 year programs. Just because you got your foot in the door with a high ACT/SAT or were able to get into a PA program doesn't mean you should skip the most difficult roadblock to getting into medical school. Maybe even becoming a physician. Their previous standards weren't high at all either: "23 on the MCAT; have a minimum 2.7 grade point average". That means literally anyone can be a doctor? There needs to be some sort of quality control here.
 
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“PA curriculum does not prepare the students to take the MCAT, with only 54 percent requiring organic chemistry and only 4 percent requiring physics. APAP students have been practicing clinically for an average of nearly six years. To require that they take the MCAT to be assessed on topics that are not consistently used in the practice of clinical medicine, fails to recognize the knowledge base that they possess."
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So because PA curriculum doesn't require organic and physics, a medical doctorate program should also ignore that particular knowledge base? Anybody else see a problem with this?
 
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Burla said:
I don't think it's a very good idea to be honest. If you want to go to medical school you should expect to take medical school level classes. I took an intense microbio course while in undergrad but I don't expect my micro class in med school to be waived because I had previously taken it.

Also, I don't agree with avoiding the MCAT in this situation or in the BA/MD 6 year programs. Just because you got your foot in the door with a high ACT/SAT or were able to get into a PA program doesn't mean you should skip the most difficult roadblock to getting into medical school. Maybe even becoming a physician. Their previous standards weren't high at all either: "23 on the MCAT; have a minimum 2.7 grade point average". That means literally anyone can be a doctor? There needs to be some sort of quality control here.
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The point in your first paragraph is irrelevant. No classes are being waived. Their program is expedited.

Re: the MCAT, it is an effective tool for ADCOMs to evaluate prospects, but is a poor predictor of medical school performance. 23 on the MCAT and 2.7 GPA were not the standards to be accepted...they were the standards to Submitting an application.

My classmates in this program are huge assets. For the classes we shared with them, their clinical understanding was stellar and a huge help in associating the abstract concepts professors present to real patients that many of them have worked with.

There is PLENTY of quality control in the process of medical training. This particular program at this particular school has decided the MCAT isn't necessary for them to evaluate their applicants.
 
GlowInTheDark said:
The point in your first paragraph is irrelevant. No classes are being waived. Their program is expedited.

Re: the MCAT, it is an effective tool for ADCOMs to evaluate prospects, but is a poor predictor of medical school performance. 23 on the MCAT and 2.7 GPA were not the standards to be accepted...they were the standards to Submitting an application.

My classmates in this program are huge assets. For the classes we shared with them, their clinical understanding was stellar and a huge help in associating the abstract concepts professors present to real patients that many of them have worked with.

There is PLENTY of quality control in the process of medical training. This particular program at this particular school has decided the MCAT isn't necessary for them to evaluate their applicants.
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Yea, I understand where you are coming from and I apologize for skimming through the article and having a misunderstanding of its content. If they aren't using the MCAT do you know what they do (out of curiosity)? We had a debate in one of my classes about this subject and it seems like the test is a necessary evil. While it doesn't necessarily indicate performance and can be unfair to certain populations something has to be used as a metric to compare students
 
science GPA and PA board scores are being used to eval potential candidates. I know folks in the current class and they are scoring > 95% on comlex, etc and compare very favorably to traditional students in all regards.
 
Entadus said:
So because PA curriculum doesn't require organic and physics, a medical doctorate program should also ignore that particular knowledge base? Anybody else see a problem with this?
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Physics is right up there with calculus as being one of the most useless UG reqs that is necessary to apply to medical school. You will use only the most basics of either of these in medical school, those of which can be self learned in 1-2 weeks. Truthfully, anything outside of biology/biochem classes don't really transition well from UG--->Doctoral.

Do you really want to put your knowledge of being able to figure out the centripetal force of a 1500kg cars tires on a 20 degree inclined slop.
vs
A PA who knows how to treat a patient in a diabetic stupor with a 600 glucose level and a sodium of 155. Not only knowing how but possibly having done so?
 
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MLT2MT2DO said:
Physics is right up there with calculus as being one of the most useless UG reqs that is necessary to apply to medical school. You will use only the most basics of either of these in medical school, those of which can be self learned in 1-2 weeks. Truthfully, anything outside of biology/biochem classes don't really transition well from UG--->Doctoral.

Do you really want to put your knowledge of being able to figure out the centripetal force of a 1500kg cars tires on a 20 degree inclined slop.
vs
A PA who knows how to treat a patient in a diabetic stupor with a 600 glucose level and a sodium of 155. Not only knowing how but possibly having done so?
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Any monkey can learn existing algorithms for treatment of common conditions. The point of being a doctor (as opposed to a PA) is treating diseases for which evidence is currently limited--and this requires an understanding of concepts rather than rote memorization. It requires an understanding of scientific literature and being able to use Bayesian methods for evaluating complicated cases. These concepts are poorly tested in medical school (USMLE is very memorization-based) which is why having applicants with a fund of basic science knowledge is important.

Frankly this just decreases my estimation of the DO degree.
 
As a future D.O. I'm not thrilled by this. I feel that it devalues the title for many people who put in a lot of hard work. Also, it should be remembered that both MD and DO granting institutions exist that waive the MCAT. (UMKC is one MD school, of course LECOM is one DO school, there may be more) So this is an issue for both MD and DO crowds. I am currently an engineer who is two classes away from a double major in physics. Do I use physics every day? No. Have I needed to know about energy wells and electron spins to do my job? Never. Has the thought processes and problem solving capacities I developed in those classes helped me be a better engineer? Every day. With pre-reqs, I am of the mind that it is easy to lose the forest for the trees. It is often the process of going through them that helps you to battle being overwhelmed, or gives you the confidence you need when attempting to solve or address a complex issue. Preparing for the MCAT is an exercise in many specific things, but more than that it is the experience of extended preparation, critical thinking, decision making, and performance under pressure and time constraints that the test taker may come to value. If the MCAT is really a deterrent to someone becoming a doctor, I have to seriously question their passion and drive. Just my current perspective, maybe right, maybe wrong, will probably evolve over time... :)
 
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Resident at a big-name program here. I have worked with PAs and most of them are excellent. Hospitalist PAs run our non-housestaff inpatient service with MD hospitalists and provide overnight cover for the non-housestaff patients. They are good clinicians. IMO, the one thing they lack is understanding of pathophysiology to put it all together. I personally think that someone with >1 year of experience as a PA would be a far, far better physician than anyone coming from undergrad because of one simple reason: they have faced and managed the actual, real life clinical problems that they are reading about. This is unlike us going through an essentially useless education in undergrad and starting med school. Imagine a traditional MD or DO student being paged about the obese patient suddenly getting short of breath in the middle of the night and being the responding clinician on the scene. Yep, hospitalist PAs are the primary responding clinicians for non-housestaff patients. The overnight attending eventually gets there but the PA does emergent management.
Great idea IMO.
 
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keindo said:
Any monkey can learn existing algorithms for treatment of common conditions. The point of being a doctor (as opposed to a PA) is treating diseases for which evidence is currently limited--and this requires an understanding of concepts rather than rote memorization. It requires an understanding of scientific literature and being able to use Bayesian methods for evaluating complicated cases. These concepts are poorly tested in medical school (USMLE is very memorization-based) which is why having applicants with a fund of basic science knowledge is important.

Frankly this just decreases my estimation of the DO degree.
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Please tell me how the USMLE is memorization based and the MCAT isn't.

Asking a Doctor to write down Bayes' Theory with pen and paper is the same as asking him to figure out the gravitational pull of the moon with pen and paper. Really understanding Bayes' Theory is usually graduate level physics stuff also; 98% of your colleagues won't have that "fundamental knowledge"
Your post screams "academia" most of us aren't going that route.

I really have nothing more to say on this subject so this'll be my last chime in on this thread
 
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MLT2MT2DO said:
Please tell me how the USMLE is memorization based and the MCAT isn't. I'm not getting into a forum debate with you as it is fairly useless. I'm just surprised to see someone as far along in their training as you still holding to such prejudices.
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If you understand physics and chemistry you can skip studying for that section. The equations are provided. For most of the biological sciences questions the article contains adequate information and memorization of biology is not needed.

Once I work with someone, their performance is the sole determinant of how I view them. But before that point information is limited; Step 1 is a poor predictor (as demonstrated by published articles). The majority of DO students did not get into an MD school so, based on pretest probabilities, they're going to be a worse physician.
 
keindo said:
If you understand physics and chemistry you can skip studying for that section. The equations are provided. For most of the biological sciences questions the article contains adequate information and memorization of biology is not needed.

Once I work with someone, their performance is the sole determinant of how I view them. But before that point information is limited; Step 1 is a poor predictor (as demonstrated by published articles). The majority of DO students did not get into an MD school so, based on pretest probabilities, they're going to be a worse physician.
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I edited my post to be a bit more tactful. Clearly your silver spoon has taken away your need for that.

Your last line is amazingly ignorant. I'll be ignoring your posts from here on out. Enjoy your life in your academic white tower.
 
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If they pass boards and can clinically pass residency, then God bless 'em....more power to them
 
It appears that those in opposition are hung up on irrelevant points.

If I were given the task of choosing between two students for medical school acceptance: a college senior from a reputable undergraduate school vs. a PA with x years of experience...I'd take the PA. When it comes to learning medical school material they would probably do an equal if not better job. How do I know? Cause the stuff ain't new to them. But guess what...that isn't he issue here. The MCAT requirement is being waived for admittance to a very niche program.

I know that elitism is a popular pre-med mentality, but PAs are not, categorically, an intellectually inferior sort.

Now, to the relevant points. Waiving the MCAT requirement doesn't meant that the doors are open for every PA in the world...and it's not taking the seat of a It is an experience-based decision after e school realized, "Hey, we are missing out on a lot of very qualified individuals for our PA to DO program."

"The field will be cheapened and poor physicians will be produced", some of your posts insinuate (or flat out say). Balogna. They will have to go through the exact same QA checkpoints the rest of us do.

And I repeat. As someone who came essentially straight from undergrad...you will be lucky to have a classmate and study buddy during your preclinical years who was a PA.
 
Umm.. whats the big deal? Its not like they are bypassing medical school or residency... I guess if I was a pre-med struggling with the mcat I'd be a little annoyed theres this other "back door" way to get in that I couldn't capitalize on.
 
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Soooo...I had to take the MCAT. Not my best standardized exam showing ever. Took it almost-cold (dumb) 12 years after undergrad bio/chem and without physics. Got a 24. Definitely not impressive.
But also not in any way predictive of my USMLE step 1 (212, meh, I was sick as a dog when I took that exam) and COMLEX level 1 (583/88) and 2 (728/98) scores which were far better.
Btw I had to recert my PA (PANRE) in Sept of M2, my 12th year out from PA graduation. Scores went from pretty good (75th percentile) on initial PANCE to 99th percentile after a year and a few months of med school lol :)
I have no qualms about further PAs in my program skipping MCAT. It was nothing but a hurdle for me. That decade-plus of overemployment as a PA in FM and EM was far better prep for med school and residency.
 
I see the point about MCAT being a poor predictor of medical school success, but at the same time, we pretty much take an MCAT every two-to-three weeks in medical school. Our tests are four hours long. Sometimes, for Neuro, our tests were 8 hours long. We would get a half hour break for lunch during 8 hour exams. I don't really see why MCAT has to be waived when in reality things will not get any easier once they get into medical school. Get into medical school is the easy part, but surviving and thriving in medical school is a constant battle. I say don't waive the requirement. Let the students be stressed out. If they cannot take a 4 hour exam over a few subjects, I am not sure that they have the chops to study hour-after-hour, day-after-day, sometimes with no end in sight.
 
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