Accused of cheating

[EdgeTrimmer]

All I can say to the armchair lawyers is that universities are not courts of law.

Student handbooks provide the guidelines for disciplinary actions.

The courts have historically given universities wide latitude in these areas.

Tampering with scantrons is a relatively uncommon IA, but rock solid on the side of the school, since the technology provides evidence directly of tampering. The OPs' story is full of holes, and his/her medical career is over.

Can OP blame it on their overbearing parents and ask for forgiveness? (Sarcasm alert)

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[KnightDoc]

Can OP blame it on their overbearing parents and ask for forgiveness? (Sarcasm alert)

Why??????????????????????????????????

The more likely scenario would be the overbearing parent showing up at the hearing, insisting on taking all the blame for producing such an amoral little cheater, and refusing to leave until his or her child were not only exonerated, but the panel also agreed to personally supervise the production of a glowing committee letter for their little cheater.

 

[Pacific_Ocean]

can someone please close this thread because there is no productive discussion happening here...

 

[HopeP]

can someone please close this thread because there is no productive discussion happening here...

Yet people are reading it and reacting it. It should remain open at least until OP's meeting outcome.

 

[Cornfed101]

taking all the blame for producing such an amoral little cheater

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Why??????????????????????????????????

The more likely scenario would be the overbearing parent showing up at the hearing, insisting on taking all the blame for producing such an amoral little cheater, and refusing to leave until his or child were not only exonerated, but the panel also agreed to personally supervise the production of a glowing committee letter for their little cheater.

For you to respond

 

[imbesrs]

Supreme court vs Character-assisted cant wait

 

[KnightDoc]

Yet people are reading it and reacting it. It should remain open at least until OP's meeting outcome.

There isn't going to be a report of an outcome -- OP's MIA status either means the OP was a troll or, more likely, he saw he wasn't getting any love here and moved on. It's a brand new account with 4 posts, so I'm not sure he's for real.

For what it's worth, I agree that this thread has run its course, particularly with OP not participating, so if I get a vote, I also vote to close!

 

[narla_hotep]

Yet people are reading it and reacting it. It should remain open at least until OP's meeting outcome.

That is, assuming OP will show their face here after the meeting...

 

[HopeP]

That is, assuming OP will show their face here after the meeting...

can't disagree with that as OP is the only one in a position to spill the beans, I have faith in all members over here, whether new or a founding member.

 

[Goro]

can someone please close this thread because there is no productive discussion happening here...

Just curious...only five posts in three years, and THIS thread provokes a post???

 

[Lawpy]

Just curious...only five posts in three years, and THIS thread provokes a post???

I'm also confused why this thread is 2 pages already

 

[Goro]

I'm also confused why this thread is 2 pages already

Cheating is one of those zebras of medical (and pre-medical) education. Posts on cheating and expulsion are like trainwrecks.

 

[Listle]

Just curious...only five posts in three years, and THIS thread provokes a post???

He must be getting triggered and needs a safe space where people don't talk about IA's

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I want to give the OP a chance to respond or update this before I close it rather than just assume they were trolling or lying.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Just curious...only five posts in three years, and THIS thread provokes a post???

Some bears hibernate for longer periods

 

[KnightDoc]

I want to give the OP a chance to respond or update this before I close it rather than just assume they were trolling or lying.

Fair enough, but OP's account was created on Saturday, he made 4 posts here (his only posts) within a half hour on Saturday, and nothing since even though we are now up to 67 posts. What's the value of keeping it open if OP doesn't respond or even show signs of life on other threads? Also, what more needs to be said here, even if it's not a troll?

 

[FalconSlice]

But some of the answers looked like they were changed from right to wrong? So they think you cheated by giving yourself wrong answers?

Maybe if a person didn't have the actual answers but had hunches on certain questions they felt iffy about they could have changed right-to-wrong and some wrong-to-right...like how we all do when the time is almost out and change a bunch of answers haha

 

[HopeP]

Fair enough, but OP's account was created on Saturday, he made 4 posts here (his only posts) within a half hour on Saturday, and nothing since even though we are now up to 67 posts. What's the value of keeping it open if OP doesn't respond or even show signs of life on other threads? Also, what more needs to be said here, even if it's not a troll?

What happened to innocent until proven guilty theory!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Fair enough, but OP's account was created on Saturday, he made 4 posts here (his only posts) within a half hour on Saturday, and nothing since even though we are now up to 67 posts. What's the value of keeping it open if OP doesn't respond or even show signs of life on other threads? Also, what more needs to be said here, even if it's not a troll?

Because I’m curious and willing to wait a day or two. If you don’t want to see it, feel free to ignore it.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Maybe if a person didn't have the actual answers but had hunches on certain questions they felt iffy about they could have changed right-to-wrong and some wrong-to-right...like how we all do when the time is almost out and change a bunch of answers haha

But they supposedly gave it back to him and then he turned it back in and asked for a regrade, unless I’m misunderstanding.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

What happened to innocent until proven guilty theory!

That's "Supreme court vs Character-assisted"

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

OP did come back. After he/she made the thread, they logged back on the following day in the afternoon and surely read through the (many) replies that had already been posted by then. By that time, the mood in the thread had already shifted towards a more skeptical attitude, so if they had nothing to add then, I doubt they'll have anything to add later, especially since this issue is actually way simpler than OP's initial post led everybody to believe (I mean, there is literally only one reasonable explanation for a scantron being returned with different answers that it's scanned image...)

 

[FalconSlice]

But they supposedly gave it back to him and then he turned it back in and asked for a regrade, unless I’m misunderstanding.

Oh sorry gotcha. On a related note from several posts back, I can't imagine why an institution would give back a scantron without having taking a photo of the initial scantron submission for exactly this reason as standard operating procedure.

My thoughts are OP most likely falls into the following two categories:
1. Troll
2. She/He actually did cheat and wants to get a thread to get ideas of how to evade repercussions of his awful choices

 

[Cornfed101]

Oh sorry gotcha. On a related note from several posts back, I can't imagine why an institution would give back a scantron without having taking a photo of the initial scantron submission for exactly this reason as standard operating procedure.

Or not allow any changes to your grade on the test after it’s handed back... that’s what my teachers always did. We would go over it in class and that was it. If you had an issue you brought it up in front of the whole class.

 

[KnightDoc]

What happened to innocent until proven guilty theory!

Sure, he definitely gets his day in court, but the circumstantial evidence here (4 BS posts here, no other activity, brand new account, followed by 3 days of silence) indicates he is jerking us around, and, even if he isn't, he's gone, so what's the point of keeping this open so we can jerk each other around? He can always come back and start another thread if he has a burning desire to provide an update, assuming anyone would believe anything he might post.

 

[KnightDoc]

But they supposedly gave it back to him and then he turned it back in and asked for a regrade, unless I’m misunderstanding.

No, you're not misunderstanding, and changing some correct answers to incorrect doesn't change anything. If there are before and after images of the sheet, he is toast. Trying to cover tracks by changing some right answer to wrong while boosting score is not an effective defense, assuming that even happened. The OP, combined with the radio silence, strongly suggests either troll or OP did not know that scantrons are imaged.

 

[KnightDoc]

Because I’m curious and willing to wait a day or two. If you don’t want to see it, feel free to ignore it.

No, I'm good, and I'm not the one who intitally called for the thread to be closed; I merely agreed!!

 

[KnightDoc]

Or not allow any changes to your grade on the test after it’s handed back... that’s what my teachers always did. We would go over it in class and that was it. If you had an issue you brought it up in front of the whole class.

Two problems with that policy -- it assumes the class is full of potential cheaters, when it's actually pretty rare, and it doesn't allow for an error to be addressed, if, for example, the machine made a scoring error due to a stray mark or smudge on the sheet.

 

[Hyunmin24]

So OP asked the Professor to regrade the scantron and then emailed her immediately after the class to double check it...

Anyway, I think at this point there are only 2 conclusions for this thread:

1. OP is indeed a troll and took us on a magical adventure that consumed some minutes of our time. Well played troll.

2. OP cheated, saw that it was actually a clear cut case, based on comments made by everyone on here, and has been in the fetal position in his shower since Saturday.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No, you're not misunderstanding, and changing some correct answers to incorrect doesn't change anything. If there are before and after images of the sheet, he is toast. Trying to cover tracks by changing some right answer to wrong while boosting score is not an effective defense, assuming that even happened. The OP, combined with the radio silence, strongly suggests either troll or OP did not know that scantrons are imaged.

I didn’t even think that he might have changed a few to be wrong to cover up cheating. None of that would even enter my mind haha.

 

[KnightDoc]

I didn’t even think that he might have changed a few to be wrong to cover up cheating. None of that would even enter my mind haha.

Yeah, kinda crazy, isn't it? But what he said was, although the sheet was altered, he couldn't possibly have done it because some right answer were changed to wrong, and vice versa. I'm assuming if his regraded score went down we wouldn't be here, so what's the alternate explanation, other than he intentionally changed some right to wrong to cover his tracks?

 

[emergentmd]

Op should declare AFFLUENZA as a defense, worked for killing someone. Mayeb INFLUENZA?

Either ways, this brings back memories when I was in college. My department at a Major/prestigious University was the Wild Wild West of Cheating. Brings back good memories of people copying Lab books, Copy/paste computer programs, Old test files that was super useful if you had connections, Test question memorization passed on to subsequent friends. Just the tip of the iceberg. I wonder if members of these groups learned anything in 4 yrs.

I remember one time when a someone threw a piece of paper at me during a test so i can send them the answers. I just ignored it of course but looking back now seems funny. People left right when Chem lab was done and just copied lab books from yester years to get A's.

Im sure if I was born a decade or two later, I would have been expelled for guilty by association.

I have even better stories but don't want to identify myself. Things must have changed b/c everyone either did it or knew someone who did. Im sure the professors knew too, but prob didn't even care. Maybe back in the day it took too much effort to catch someone and easier now with all the technology.

 

[HopeP]

circumstantial evidence here (4 BS posts here, no other activity, brand new account, followed by 3 days of silence)

Well anyone can create a brand new account, who knows same guy is lurking here with another account? Who knows even same person is communicating under main account? Who knows OP had ski accident over weekend and this become less priority? I am not defending trolls or cheaters, This quickly becoming a mob justice in absence of OP. Let the chips fall where they may w/o jerking each other around.

 

[KnightDoc]

Well anyone can create a brand new account, who knows same guy is lurking here with another account? Who knows even same person is communicating under main account? Who knows OP had ski accident over weekend and this become less priority? I am not defending trolls or cheaters, This quickly becoming a mob justice in absence of OP. Let the chips fall where they may w/o jerking each other around.

True enough, but if OP is gone (for whatever reason) or lurking under an alt, there is really no reason to keep it going for his amusement (although I have to admit to enjoying it myself!).

 

[HopeP]

True enough, but if OP is gone (for whatever reason) or lurking under an alt, there is really no reason to keep it going for his amusement (although I have to admit to enjoying it myself!).

I can't comprehend how one can be amused if accused of cheating.

 

[Goro]

Two problems with that policy -- it assumes the class is full of potential cheaters, when it's actually pretty rare, and it doesn't allow for an error to be addressed, if, for example, the machine made a scoring error due to a stray mark or smudge on the sheet.

If these machines make errors (unheard of in all the time I've been teaching and using them...some ten+ years), then what professors do is simply tell the machine to change an answer or give an second correct answer. You don't need to rebubble the scantron sheet or rerun the scantrons.

 

[KnightDoc]

If these machines make errors (unheard of in all the time I've been teaching and using them...some ten+ years), then what professors do is simply tell the machine to change an answer or give an second correct answer. You don't need to rebubble the scantron sheet or rerun the scantrons.

Yes, of course. But I've had situations when an erasure was incomplete or there was a stray mark on the sheet that apparently caused the machine to think there were two answers chosen, causing me to have correct answers marked incorrect by the machine, and the professor gave me credit after looking at the sheet. Of course, in my case, my sheet looked exactly like the image taken by the machine, because I didn't change anything after the sheets were returned to the class!

I'm not suggesting this is what happened with OP, and I'm not suggesting anyone needs to rebubble or rerun to get the desired result. I was merely suggesting that a no regrade after sheets returned policy would preclude fixing this mistake in scoring.

 

[KnightDoc]

I can't comprehend how one can be amused if accused of cheating.

And yet there are now 89 posts with nary a peep from OP since post #7, so go figure!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

And yet there are now 89 posts with nary a peep from OP since post #7, so go figure!

May be OP updated pwd and forgot.

 

[mwsapphire]

I suspect that you're SOL. Those bubbles don't change by themselves.

Mm. Its possible that if the question sheet wasnt given to them, they may have absently just "corrected" their own scantron, especially if it was like, in red ink or something. I never did anything like this, but I have absent minded ly marked things that werent supposed to be marked just to annotate/correct something. I mean, giving benefit of the doubt, thats what I would say.

 

[DNAJB6]

Schools can do whatever they want. You have no "presumption of innocence".

If the OP did what others here are alleging then he is screwed. That is true. The quoted statement is not accurate however.

If it is a public university then the professors and administration are state actors and the student is entitled to due process of law under the Fourteenth Amendment. This assumes a notice and a fair and impartial hearing. A "presumption of innocence" is a foundation of basic due process in this context. While universities are given great deference, expulsion for something like this is not something the university can do capriciously. Universities are not permitted to act as 21st century versions of the Star Chamber.

Even if it is a private institution, courts have held that students have a property interest in obtaining their degree. As such, the university could be subjective to equitable relief including injunctive relief in appropriate cases (not this one). There may also be statutory law imposed on all schools that accept federal aid.

The point of this is not to say the OP has a case. I'm saying that schools cannot do whatever they want.

 

[Cornfed101]

I'm not suggesting this is what happened with OP, and I'm not suggesting anyone needs to rebubble or rerun to get the desired result. I was merely suggesting that a no regrade after sheets returned policy would preclude fixing this mistake in scoring.

No no no... I think I was unclear. The professor could do whatever the freak they wanted. You just couldn’t look at your scantron and say, “hey I actually marked two bubbles and this is the one I meant.” Most of the time what happened was points being added to your test, but the questions weren’t altered at all, nor was the scantron

 

[deleted922305]

Not to detract but all of this reminds me of a funny/terrifying story. I had a professor who would give you back points if you went to office hours with your exam because the TA wouldn't always grade very fairly or consistently.

He'd look through your test in front of you to look at things marked wrong, usually give you a few points back out of pity bc there were some vaguely-worded questions and 40-50% averages, and bump it up in the gradebook on his computer right in front of you.

One day, he decided one of the correct answers on a kid's test was actually wrong (but the question wording made it very easy to interpret it that way), and instead of bumping anything, he took off those points on the gradebook and the kid dropped a full 7-8 points. Poor guy came out of there and told the whole office hours line what happened. Pretty much everyone had that answer and left immediately. No one tried to get points back again that semester

 

[mwsapphire]

I had a student once say that about me, after bombing an exam. Said student got expelled.

They got expelled for that only- or other offenses as well? ( only asking bc if he said it to you in a closed office or something I feel like it would be hard to prove to the extent that you can expel someone? Generally expulsion requires heavy proof compared to suspension/IA/etc.)

 

[Goro]

They got expelled for that only- or other offenses as well? ( only asking bc if he said it to you in a closed office or something I feel like it would be hard to prove to the extent that you can expel someone? Generally expulsion requires heavy proof compared to suspension/IA/etc.)

I should have elaborated, my apologies. Student was expelled for failing too many classes. He made the accusation when he sued the school. It didn't help his case

 

[HopeP]

Not to detract but all of this reminds me of a funny/terrifying story. I had a professor who would give you back points if you went to office hours with your exam because the TA wouldn't always grade very fairly or consistently.

He'd look through your test in front of you to look at things marked wrong, usually give you a few points back out of pity bc there were some vaguely-worded questions and 40-50% averages, and bump it up in the gradebook on his computer right in front of you.

One day, he decided one of the correct answers on a kid's test was actually wrong (but the question wording made it very easy to interpret it that way), and instead of bumping anything, he took off those points on the gradebook and the kid dropped a full 7-8 points. Poor guy came out of there and told the whole office hours line what happened. Pretty much everyone had that answer and left immediately. No one tried to get points back again that semester

My kid told me stories on similar line. If anything is wrong on teaching side, it is usually TAs are at fault, not professors, for reasons like you described.

 

[mmchick]

Wanted to add into this directionless pile to just say.. why do people even bother with the cheating?? A grade C, D, hell, even an F is by FAR easier to overcome through grade remediation, postbacc, personal statements, grovelling, etc. than a big fat IA. It's like causing a car accident and then instead of rectifying the injured or damaged through exchanging insurance/paying a higher premium as needed, you just set the damaged car in neutral and push it off the cliff whether someone was inside or not. Such a high risk for something that would've likely just needed a band-aid.

 

[Cornfed101]

Wanted to add into this directionless pile to just say.. why do people even bother with the cheating?? A grade C, D, hell, even an F is by FAR easier to overcome through grade remediation, postbacc, personal statements, grovelling, etc. than a big fat IA. It's like causing a car accident and then instead of rectifying the injured or damaged through exchanging insurance/paying a higher premium as needed, you just set the damaged car in neutral and push it off the cliff whether someone was inside or not. Such a high risk for something that would've likely just needed a band-aid.

For the same reason people commit a lot of crimes (especially aggressive crimes). Your frontal lobe turns off and you be dumb

 

[narla_hotep]

Wanted to add into this directionless pile to just say.. why do people even bother with the cheating?? A grade C, D, hell, even an F is by FAR easier to overcome through grade remediation, postbacc, personal statements, grovelling, etc. than a big fat IA. It's like causing a car accident and then instead of rectifying the injured or damaged through exchanging insurance/paying a higher premium as needed, you just set the damaged car in neutral and push it off the cliff whether someone was inside or not. Such a high risk for something that would've likely just needed a band-aid.

Because they never think they'll be the one to get caught