ACGME Pain Medicine Fellowship Training for EPs

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Jkc423

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If you are in EM, you can do an accredited Interventional Pain Medicine fellowship (alongside Anesthesia and PM&R) and be double-boarded in EM and Pain. Here's a link to the digital version:

ACGME Pain Medicine Fellowship Training for EPs

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A job where my drug seeker population increases?
How do I sign up for this lucrative opportunity?

/sarcasm
 
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A job where my drug seeker population increases?
How do I sign up for this lucrative opportunity?

/sarcasm

There are a couple of pain docs that just do procedures and refuse to prescribe narcs. Could be a decent side gig. Maybe the trolls that come in to the ED are only a small part of their population. I guess you'd also have to state upfront you don't sign disability paperwork either, that'd be a nightmare.
 
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there are plenty of totally legit pain pts out there. you put out strict rules and get rid of pts who don't follow the rules.

i had to see a pain doc (PM&R trained) for a while for lumbar spine issues - he was the best diagnostician EVER. i can honestly say he saved my career. fwiw, i wasn't on narcs (never helped one bit), and he treated me w/ a variety of meds. i learned a lot about non-narc treatment of muscle issues from him, some of which i use in my practice on pts with longstanding issues. he also knew the best PT's in town and could inject anything. he saw pts for all kinds of pain issues and did some crazy cool procedures.

and, for the record, i got better and moved on... he had a decent # of pts like me. he worked only on referrals and of course had contracts etc. the local legit pain groups operate similarly. there are, of course, a whole bunch of crappo "pain docs" as well.
 
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there are plenty of totally legit pain pts out there. you put out strict rules and get rid of pts who don't follow the rules.

i had to see a pain doc (PM&R trained) for a while for lumbar spine issues - he was the best diagnostician EVER. i can honestly say he saved my career. fwiw, i wasn't on narcs (never helped one bit), and he treated me w/ a variety of meds. i learned a lot about non-narc treatment of muscle issues from him, some of which i use in my practice on pts with longstanding issues. he also knew the best PT's in town and could inject anything. he saw pts for all kinds of pain issues and did some crazy cool procedures.

and, for the record, i got better and moved on... he had a decent # of pts like me. he worked only on referrals and of course had contracts etc. the local legit pain groups operate similarly. there are, of course, a whole bunch of crappo "pain docs" as well.

Excellent response.

:bump:
 
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Is this real? I can't find anything about pain fellowships for EM
 
Are there any folks here that know of EM people that have done interventional pain fellowships? Are they harder to get for EM trained docs?
 
Are there any folks here that know of EM people that have done interventional pain fellowships?

I personally know of 5 EPs who have done (very high quality) ACGME accredited Pain Fellowships, alongside anesthesia and PM&R, all eligible to be ABMS Subspecialty boarded in Pain, including one on staff at Harvard. There may be more. ABEM will soon be making an application to have Pain as the next official Subspecialty of EM. Considering 70% of patients in the ED have a chief complaint of some type of pain, EPs certainly can lay claim to being excellent candidates. Just like Critical Care, and Hospice/Palliative care started with a few EM people just doing it, then the official status came later. In retrospect, it seems plainly obvious these should all have been official subspecialties sooner. Pain will be next. It will take time, though.

Are they harder to get for EM trained docs?

Yes, very hard. Pain is extremely competitive even for anesthesia and PM&R, let alone EM. Yet, several have gotten in. The article in the OP lists some approaches to take, if interested.

Consider the amount of experience EPs have with treating acute pain, chronic pain, and everything in between. Also, EPs have an incredibly important viewpoint on the current prescription drug overdose epidemic and that viewpoint needs to be heard. I think having more EPs get boarded in Pain strengthens both the specialties of EM and Pain, and helps chronic pain patients.
 
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A job where my drug seeker population increases?
How do I sign up for this lucrative opportunity?

/sarcasm

There's a world of difference in truly being sub-specialized in Pain (with ACGME fellowship and ABMS certification), compared to seeing chronic pain patients in the ED. There's lots of procedures such as spinal cord stimulators, Kyphoplasty, facet nerve ablations, to name a few. Also, with the aging baby boomers, it's going to be a growth specialty.

Certainly, if you are going to sub-specialize in Pain, one has to be able to deal with the fact that a certain percentage of patients will attempt to malinger to get pain pills. One has to have a plan on how to deal with that appropriately. Emergency Medicine is no different in that respect. I'm not certain that the "population increases" necessarily, however. Certainly, your ability to control your patient population does increase. EMTALA is null and void in the outpatient setting.

Clearly, it's not for everybody, or even most. I understand and respect that completely, but it is an option I think EM residents should be aware of, for the minority that may be interested.
 
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From ABEM's website:

"Certification in Pain Medicine-

The Subspecialty of Pain Medicine is currently co-sponsored by the American Board of Anesthesiology (ABA), the American Board of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation (ABPMR), and the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology (ABPN). In the past, ABPMR has offered certification in Pain Medicine to diplomates of other ABMS Member Boards who fulfill the eligibility criteria and pass the subspecialty examination. ABPMR has awarded certification in Pain Medicine to some ABEM diplomates. This opportunity ended with the 2013 Pain Medicine certification application period.

The three co-sponsoring boards of Pain Medicine have opened co-sponsorship of the subspecialty to other ABMS Member Boards. ABEM submitted an application to the ABMS on August 23, 2013, to become a co-sponsor of Pain Medicine. This was done with the support of the current co-sponsoring boards. The ABMS committee that reviews these applications is the Committee on Certification (COCERT). COCERT will review the ABEM application on March 13, 2014. The ABMS Reserved Powers Board will consider the application for final approval on April 24, 2014.

Updated information will be posted here on the ABEM website. If you have specific questions, please contact ABEM at 517.332.4800, extension 387."

http://www.abem.org/public/news-notices-exam-dates-fees/other-news-announcements/pain-medicine
 
I personally know a EM trained pain physician. He was kind of burnt with EM so decided to do the fellowship and now has an outpatient practice. He is very happy with his decision. I will say he runs criminal background checks and script checks on ALL his patients and is very aware of malingering patients.
 
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A job where my drug seeker population increases?
How do I sign up for this lucrative opportunity?

/sarcasm


Granted, it was only a month, but the general seeker population of the pain clinic at the local county hospital was pretty low. We generally kept a good watch over our patient's narcotic prescription database (California's CURES database), did frequent drug tests, and almost all of our patients had an MRI showing pathology in their records. Easily one of the best elective rotations I've done.
 
Forgive my ignorance, and maybe someone can explain this to me. But other than nerve blocks, what are you offering by doing this fellowship?

It's about what the fellowship would offer you. It gives one access to an entirely different specialty, that in the past had been primarily a very competitive (primarily) Anesthesia subspecialty. Pain Physicians do much more than nerve blocks and write prescriptions. Many do kyphoplasty, place spinal cord stimulators, facet joint blocks, epidural steroid injections, radiofrequency nerve ablations, fluoro and/or ultrasound guided hip/knee/shoulder injections and other procedures. Unlike some of the EM fellowships, this fellowship allows an EP to truly be a subspecialist, and practice in any practice setting they want, including outpatient/office-only, hospital-based, or surgery-center based (+/- ownership). There's very little (if any) night, weekend or holiday work including call, in most practices. There's zero issues with circadian rhythm disruption, for the most part, unless actively working ED shifts.

As said by Siggy above, opiate prescribing by a Pain Physician in his own office or surgery center, is on his own (and DEAs) terms, without any influence of EMTALA, or Press Ganey (unless a hospital employee). Many Pain Physicians have office policies where: new patients are by referral only, no prescriptions are given on the first visit, and where old records, imaging, a resulted drug test, Rx database report and public drug arrest records are checked prior to any opiate prescription is written. Patients can be discharged from the practice if in violation of prescribing agreements, as opposed to EMTALA-based care in the ED. The pendulum is swinging much more against opiates nationwide, but reliance on opiates in ones practice can be on either end of the spectrum with some practices more reliant on prescribing, some completely non-opiate (about 15% of Pain Physicians) and some offering low dose opiates in select cases.

Downsides include recent reimbursement cuts for office based practices (but not hospital based physicians) and being at the center of the current opiate abuse epidemic (though Emergency Medicine, Primary Care, Ortho/spine, psych and other specialties are by no means immune). I think a background in Emergency Medicine, uniquely prepares one to deal with this issue, better than any other. If, as an Emergency Physician who has treated lots of addiction and prescription opiate overdoses you think opiates are over prescribed, take an active role in the Subspecialty and make that known. We have a seat at the table now.

It's worth doing a month elective if you are a medical student, or EM PGY 1 or 2. It's great for EPs to have another option to broaden their horizons, training and practice options. This is a positive step for the specialty. I think more EPs should take an active role and exert their influence in the field of Pain Medicine, from their own background and perspective.
 
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How does one make themselves competitive for a pain fellowship?

I am somewhat interested in doing this but I will graduate from a medium-sized community program (12 grads per year) with loose academic affiliations and very little research opportunity.

Seems a little difficult when your competition is captain anesthesia from Brand Name University with multiple research accomplishments and letters from leaders in the field.
 
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How does one make themselves competitive for a pain fellowship?

I am somewhat interested in doing this but I will graduate from a medium-sized community program (12 grads per year) with loose academic affiliations and very little research opportunity.

Seems a little difficult when your competition is captain anesthesia from Brand Name University with multiple research accomplishments and letters from leaders in the field.

This has some suggestions (note that there's been changes in the pathway to board certification in the past year):

http://www.acepnow.com/article/acgme-pain-medicine-fellowship-training-eps/
 
Pain Med in the ED will be one of the next big niches. Get in on it before it's saturated (if it's something that interests you at least). there is still the opportunity to be a Scott Weingart of pain...
 
Regarding applying to pain fellowships and matching.. is this the same as the NRMP match in that if you fail to match into a fellowship the first time you try, your odds of being successful afterward are drastically diminished to the point of being futile? Say I don't match into pain the first time around and forget about it for 3-4 years while I churn out shifts with some CMG. Can I try to publish a few papers in the interim (can you even do this in a non-academic job?), get in with the pain crew, and then try again without having the red flag of being an unsuccessful reapplicant?

Sorry for all the questions, it just seems like doing fellowships in EM are going to be the next big thing (a la rads, gas, and path) since IMHO our field will get saturated pretty quickly.

Also, I'm so thankful I'm going to a 3 year program if fellowships are going to be all but required for the future...
 
Sorry for all the questions, it just seems like doing fellowships in EM are going to be the next big thing (a la rads, gas, and path) since IMHO our field will get saturated pretty quickly.

I doubt that. Currently, only about half of the nation's emergency department physician slots are filled by residency-trained emergency physicians. The rest of those slots are taken up by family physicians, former surgeons, internists, and whomever else is willing to sign up. The job outlook for a current resident in emergency medicine looks good for the next few years. I would say that you should only consider a fellowship if you truly are interested in that specialty.
 
I'm noticing that many pain fellowship programs are only mentioning accepting anesthesiology trained applicants. This has to be a fairly competitive fellowship.
 
Sorry for the bump. Anyone has gone through the application/interview process from EM? I looked at websites and many state they prefer Anes or PM&R depending on which department it goes through.

Also, the fellowships are very, very confusing. There are interventional pain, interventional spine, sports and spine, sports and interventional pain, etc. Some are ACGME accredited, but some are not. Anyone has a good site for this type of info?
 
https://www.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/Report/1

Click on "Anesthesia" then "Pain Medicine (Multidisciplinary)"

All are ACGME accredited Pain Medicine Fellowships, ie, interventional pain. This is the ACGMEs website itself, so there should not be non-ACGME accredited programs listed.

"Multidisciplinary" means they can accept (and are supposed to be open to) applicants from the official Pain Specialties: Anesthesia, PMR, psych, Neuro, EM, FM and Radiology, regardless of what they list as core specialty. Technically, they're supposed to open to, and consider all. In practice that may be different or not as advertised.

Interventional spine, sports and spine, sports are usually code words for non-accredited.
 
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Oh my God I can think of absolutely nothing worse than being a pain management doctor. Kudos to them though. It's a very necessary field - if only to help keep these patients out of the ER!
 
Sorry for the bump. Anyone has gone through the application/interview process from EM? I looked at websites and many state they prefer Anes or PM&R depending on which department it goes through.

Also, the fellowships are very, very confusing. There are interventional pain, interventional spine, sports and spine, sports and interventional pain, etc. Some are ACGME accredited, but some are not. Anyone has a good site for this type of info?

I applied and got into the pain fellowship. Once they found out that I was a boarded EM working 15 yrs, they just sent me straight to the the 2wk procedure course. Now I am able to write for 180 percocets and dilaudid scripts every month without impunity. I can turn off my pager and just have my PA answer all of my calls. I can sit at home while my office is run by 3 PAs writing scripts under my name without the DEA even looking at me b/c I am Boarded in Pain management. I can now be at peace with myself that my 30 YO chronic pain pts can sleep well at night popping 10 norcos a day with a handful of percocet mixed in.

In All seriousness, I must have a skewed view of Pain management docs. Are they Just LAZY. I work in texas and all docs have access to the DPS website and can tell if their patients are drug seeking. There are countless times when I pull pts up who have "chronic Pain" but walking like they can dance with the stars. If I can see it, how can these Pain docs not? When I look at the DPS websites for these pts, they get narcs from other docs mixed in with the pain management docs, some with multiple scripts from ED docs. Is this not a red flag? Are they just Lazy?

If I were a pain management doc, I would at Minimum require all patients give me access to their Facebook page. I would have my staff do a once a month check on the DPS website and Facebook page.

If the have scripts from anyone else and have not told me the next day, they are out of the practice. If their facebook page shows that they are water skiing, sky diving, helping a friend move furniture then they are out of the practice.

HOW HARD IS IT?
 
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I applied and got into the pain fellowship. Once they found out that I was a boarded EM working 15 yrs, they just sent me straight to the the 2wk procedure course. Now I am able to write for 180 percocets and dilaudid scripts every month without impunity. I can turn off my pager and just have my PA answer all of my calls. I can sit at home while my office is run by 3 PAs writing scripts under my name without the DEA even looking at me b/c I am Boarded in Pain management. I can now be at peace with myself that my 30 YO chronic pain pts can sleep well at night popping 10 norcos a day with a handful of percocet mixed in.

In All seriousness, I must have a skewed view of Pain management docs. Are they Just LAZY. I work in texas and all docs have access to the DPS website and can tell if their patients are drug seeking. There are countless times when I pull pts up who have "chronic Pain" but walking like they can dance with the stars. If I can see it, how can these Pain docs not? When I look at the DPS websites for these pts, they get narcs from other docs mixed in with the pain management docs, some with multiple scripts from ED docs. Is this not a red flag? Are they just Lazy?

If I were a pain management doc, I would at Minimum require all patients give me access to their Facebook page. I would have my staff do a once a month check on the DPS website and Facebook page.

If the have scripts from anyone else and have not told me the next day, they are out of the practice. If their facebook page shows that they are water skiing, sky diving, helping a friend move furniture then they are out of the practice.

HOW HARD IS IT?
The Pain MD might be lazy, or unethical. Or he may have checked the prescription monitoring website, identified the drug abuse, discharged the patient permanently, referred them to rehab, and now they fall into the systemic EMTALA-enforced safety-net which is your place of employment. Or more likely, it's not a board certified Pain Physician at all. Opiate prescriptions and associated overdose deaths by Primary Care, far outweigh those by board certified Pain Physicians, (or emergency physicians for that matter).

"Primary care providers were the most frequent prescribers and the most often associated with opioid fatalities..."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24118974/
 
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The Pain MD might be lazy, or unethical. Or he may have checked the prescription monitoring website, identified the drug abuse, discharged the patient permanently, referred them to rehab, and now they fall into the systemic EMTALA-enforced safety-net which is your place of employment. Or more likely, it's not a board certified Pain Physician at all. Opiate prescriptions and associated overdose deaths by Primary Care, far outweigh those by board certified Pain Physicians, (or emergency physicians for that matter).

"Primary care providers were the most frequent prescribers and the most often associated with opioid fatalities..."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24118974/

Trust me. I know who is a pain management doc and who isnt. I have been in my same hospital for 15 years. I know 95% of the docs that works in this area. The last slug that came to my FSED had this rap sheet from DPS website. I only check the past year on DPS otherwise, my system would crash.

Pain doc #1 10 scripts for 180 oxy each spaced out over a year filled in Pharm A
A few PCP and ER docs for NORCO scrips Filled in Pharm B
Pain Doc #2 5 scripts for 180 Percs over the past 6 months. Filled in Pharm C

Both Doc #1 and #2 had scripts mixed throughout last 6 months.

If the above can not be caught by the pain management doc, then I give up. It took an EM slug like me that spends about 10 min/pt to figure it out. Come one. Dude looked comfortable coming in at 10pm for "severe back pain". Once he was booted out, he walked out dejected but walked without even a limp. But he sure had a hard time getting in the bed.

Also, PCP are associated with most fatalities and are frequent subscribers b/c the Pain guys only take good insurance. There are prob a 1000:1 ratio of PCP vs pain docs. So those numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt.
 
Trust me. I know who is a pain management doc and who isnt. I have been in my same hospital for 15 years. I know 95% of the docs that works in this area. The last slug that came to my FSED had this rap sheet from DPS website. I only check the past year on DPS otherwise, my system would crash.

Pain doc #1 10 scripts for 180 oxy each spaced out over a year filled in Pharm A
A few PCP and ER docs for NORCO scrips Filled in Pharm B
Pain Doc #2 5 scripts for 180 Percs over the past 6 months. Filled in Pharm C

Both Doc #1 and #2 had scripts mixed throughout last 6 months.

If the above can not be caught by the pain management doc, then I give up. It took an EM slug like me that spends about 10 min/pt to figure it out. Come one. Dude looked comfortable coming in at 10pm for "severe back pain". Once he was booted out, he walked out dejected but walked without even a limp. But he sure had a hard time getting in the bed.

Also, PCP are associated with most fatalities and are frequent subscribers b/c the Pain guys only take good insurance. There are prob a 1000:1 ratio of PCP vs pain docs. So those numbers need to be taken with a grain of salt.
Is this a pill mill where this patient was seen?
 
Unless the pain doctors are actually doing non-narcotic means of pain control, then I don't see them as any different than pill mills.
Opioids kill more people than car crashes now. And as soon as you try to dial back the oxy scripts in a town, heroin comes in with a vengeance.
I don't prescribe narcotics for almost anything anymore. They don't benefit much more than non-narcotic pills, and they harm people, families, and communities.
 
Is this a pill mill where this patient was seen?

I find most to be Pill Mills. Maybe I am just tainted b/c everyone one of them comes to the ED and I get a sense that is all pain management patients. I am sure there are good ones out there where their pts never come to the ED. I just get 3-4 docs that have no interest in actually trying to help pts out.
 
I applied and got into the pain fellowship. Once they found out that I was a boarded EM working 15 yrs, they just sent me straight to the the 2wk procedure course. Now I am able to write for 180 percocets and dilaudid scripts every month without impunity. I can turn off my pager and just have my PA answer all of my calls. I can sit at home while my office is run by 3 PAs writing scripts under my name without the DEA even looking at me b/c I am Boarded in Pain management. I can now be at peace with myself that my 30 YO chronic pain pts can sleep well at night popping 10 norcos a day with a handful of percocet mixed in.

In All seriousness, I must have a skewed view of Pain management docs (the supervising anesthesiologists pretty much stay in the fluoro suite). Are they Just LAZY. I work in texas and all docs have access to the DPS website and can tell if their patients are drug seeking. There are countless times when I pull pts up who have "chronic Pain" but walking like they can dance with the stars. If I can see it, how can these Pain docs not? When I look at the DPS websites for these pts, they get narcs from other docs mixed in with the pain management docs, some with multiple scripts from ED docs. Is this not a red flag? Are they just Lazy?

If I were a pain management doc, I would at Minimum require all patients give me access to their Facebook page. I would have my staff do a once a month check on the DPS website and Facebook page.

If the have scripts from anyone else and have not told me the next day, they are out of the practice. If their facebook page shows that they are water skiing, sky diving, helping a friend move furniture then they are out of the practice.

HOW HARD IS IT?


It depends on the doc. The pain clinic/consult service at the hospital I did med school rotations and intern year at is run by an NP. The back pain patients are much much more likely to walk out of the clinic with a scrip for diclofenac, baclofen, gabapentin and an appointment for RF ablation or steroid injection than you are for opiates. Positive urine drug screen for anything but THC? Discharge... sometimes with permission to come back in 6 months. Outside prescriptions? Discharge. Fibro? Here's your antidepressants.
 
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It depends on the doc. The pain clinic/consult service at the hospital I did med school rotations and intern year at is run by an NP. The back pain patients are much much more likely to walk out of the clinic with a scrip for diclofenac, baclofen, gabapentin and an appointment for RF ablation steroid injection than you are for opiates. Positive urine drug screen for anything but THC? Discharge... sometimes with permission to come back in 6 months. Outside prescriptions? Discharge. Fibro? Here's your antidepressants.

Like I said, I am sure my views from the ED are skewed no different than after a psychish shift, I think most people are closet depressed.

Pain management has a great role in medicine. But if you are a pain management doc, and prescribing 180 oxy every month and its been over a year then you are essentially hooking the pt on drugs on purpose, too greedy to fire the pts, or too lazy to care. You pain docs know who you are and should be ashamed.
 
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