Adcom members: How often do you get bad LoRs?

[LuluLovesMe]

What do they look like?

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[LuluLovesMe]

Tepid, weak, impersonal, formula, short

But I'm sure you get a lot of LoRs like that don't you? I can't imagine that every writer writes a glowing and lengthy letter. Is something like that enough to sink an app?

 

[LizzyM]

Tepid, weak, impersonal, formula, short

There are plenty of letters that meet this description, particularly from science professors who teach huge classes where all they really have to go on is the grade book and perhaps the opinion of a TA who saw the student in lab. Those letters don't help but they don't hurt and they come with the territory, particularly large, underfunded public universities. There are also those letters that will say, "he had the top grade in every quiz and exam. He never came to office hours so I didn't have a chance to get to know him. I would place him in the top 1% of students from an academic perspective but I cannot speak to his personality or suitability for a career in medicine."

The really bad letters are rare (maybe 1-2% of applications) and they will make remarks about the student not being a participator in class discussions, of not making an effort in the final given that a grade of A was virtually guaranteed thanks to excellent performance up to that point, or being very dependent on others rather than a self-starter in lab (e.g. once a routine is established, you might be expected to get underway without supervision).

 

[LuluLovesMe]

There are plenty of letters that meet this description, particularly from science professors who teach huge classes where all they really have to go on is the grade book and perhaps the opinion of a TA who saw the student in lab. Those letters don't help but they don't hurt and they come with the territory, particularly large, underfunded public universities. There are also those letters that will say, "he had the top grade in every quiz and exam. He never came to office hours so I didn't have a chance to get to know him. I would place him in the top 1% of students from an academic perspective but I cannot speak to his personality or suitability for a career in medicine."

The really bad letters are rare (maybe 1-2% of applications) and they will make remarks about the student not being a participator in class discussions, of not making an effort in the final given that a grade of A was virtually guaranteed thanks to excellent performance up to that point, or being very dependent on others rather than a self-starter in lab (e.g. once a routine is established, you might be expected to get underway without supervision).

How much of a negative impact would one bad statement have on an app? For example a bunch of positives and then something like "While applicant X was well-liked by coworkers and developed good rapport with patients, he sometimes struggled with reliability and coming to work on time."

 

[GrapesofRath]

How much of a negative impact would one bad statement have on an app? For example a bunch of positives and then something like "While applicant X was well-liked by coworkers and developed good rapport with patients, he sometimes struggled with reliability and coming to work on time."

That's basically what LizzyM is talking about. Even many bad letters that sink applicants often aren't just bombarded with 10-15 negative statements in a row with nothing remotely positive at all. They can have tepid or have generic praise that is then complemented with a negative statement like what she described above.

Negative statements in LORs in general are just very very bad things to have. Even one statement does it. There is a major difference between a "bland" recommendation that isn't particularly positive but doesn't state anything negative and one that openly states something negative. That latter is rare and its rarity is what's killer. Keep in mind one "bland letter" that doesn't state much but combined with several strong letters in an application isn't going to sink someone most of the time.

 

[itsogre]

Hidden meaning that implies someone doesn't play well with others. Usually sugar-coated in other positives.

"Dan quickly mastered bench research, despite learning all the protocols without help from his grad student mentor and coming in at odd hours."
"Dan is fantastic in lab, etc... [but] I would rank him top 50% of all students I've mentored." (great LORs would rank you in top 1-5% or so).
"Dan finished his rigorous thesis work on time, despite being easily distracted by other grad students."

once I used a letter from an odd PI I used to work for for a nominal job application LOR for my friend's family business (the prof was a theoretical research person that disliked the fact that any one of his students would actually get something other than a PhD in physical chemistry lol) and he gave me a 3 sentence recommendation that went something like this:

"James can analyse and interpret results. He is hard working and intelligent but not unusually so. I don't doubt that James will be very successful in his work."

It might not be a bad idea to apply for a position at a business (if you or your family knows any small business owners) so someone there can vet your LORs.

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

Hidden meaning that implies someone doesn't play well with others. Usually sugar-coated in other positives.

"Dan quickly mastered bench research, despite learning all the protocols without help from his grad student mentor and coming in at odd hours."
"Dan is fantastic in lab, etc... [but] I would rank him top 50% of all students I've mentored." (great LORs would rank you in top 1-5% or so).
"Dan finished his rigorous thesis work on time, despite being easily distracted by other grad students."

once I used a letter from an odd PI I used to work for for a nominal job application LOR for my friend's family business (the prof was a theoretical research person that disliked the fact that any one of his students would actually get something other than a PhD in physical chemistry lol) and he gave me a 3 sentence recommendation that went something like this:

"James can analyse and interpret results. He is hard working and intelligent but not unusually so. I don't doubt that James will be very successful in his work."

It might not be a bad idea to apply for a position at a business (if you or your family knows any small business owners) so someone there can vet your LORs.

Hmm, I strongly advise against this, as it is not very ethical.

 

[Goro]

First, let me say that I agree 100% with what my wise colleague LizzyM has stated. I see maybe one bad LOR/interview cycle.


To your question, Lulu, I have seen comments like this in a bad LOR and they are enough to sink an app.

Other bad LORs have mentioned something like "poor work ethic", "not a team player" and "unable to trust group members".

How much of a negative impact would one bad statement have on an app? For example a bunch of positives and then something like "While applicant X was well-liked by coworkers and developed good rapport with patients, he sometimes struggled with reliability and coming to work on time."

 

[itsogre]

Hmm, I strongly advise against this, as it is not very ethical.

I'm not stating that you need to read your LORs and waive confidentiality, but if are also applying for jobs or other grad school programs you can ask for feedback on your LORs and your performance. Small companies tend to do this better than larger corporations. Some med schools offer the same service if you are rejected. Sometimes you feel like you have established a strong rapport with the other person (like I felt I did with the physical chemistry professor), but if they don't agree with your career path they might give you a bad LOR.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

First, let me say that I agree 100% with what my wise colleague LizzyM has stated. I see maybe one bad LOR/interview cycle.


To your question, Lulu, I have seen comments like this in a bad LOR and they are enough to sink an app.

Other bad LORs have mentioned something like "poor work ethic", "not a team player" and "unable to trust group members".

Thanks Goro. I am super worried about one of my LoR's. The thing is I can't imagine someone would agree to write a letter if it is a negative one. Do you think they would?

If I don't get any interviews I will know why I guess.

 

[G.NA]

It might not be a bad idea to apply for a position at a business (if you or your family knows any small business owners) so someone there can vet your LORs.

??? so many questions here.
1) How many business jobs actually ask for literal letters? No serious HR manager would ever read letters. People make reference phone calls in the real world; no one sits down to read pages of stuff, much less those written by college professors. This was the case during my job search (broad range of big/small shops). If the job is asking for actual letters, you need to find better jobs to apply to tbh
2) How would getting feedback on LORs for some random small job have any positive impact on your med apps? Why would someone write the same letter for both? Maybe your p-chem prof would’ve loved for you to clerk at the furniture store but was against your going to med school.
3) Seeking out specific feedback on your LORs in particular is still unethical. It’s basically an excuse for you to find out what was written, which one could argue violates the waiver.

 

[BeachBlondie]

Getting a poor letter is easily avoidable:

I have always approached potential letter writers by asking, "Do you feel you could write me a FAVORABLE letter of recommendation?" I've actually had one surgeon--who had known me for a couple of years in the research lab, but had never been on a paper with me--say that he didn't think it would be genuine since he can't specifically speak to my research skills. His response was odd, considering he was very well aware of my productivity AND the fact that we had co-drafted several of his lectures, but I respected his honesty and saved myself from adding a lackluster letter to my file.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'm not stating that you need to read your LORs and waive confidentiality, but if are also applying for jobs or other grad school programs you can ask for feedback on your LORs and your performance. Small companies tend to do this better than larger corporations. Some med schools offer the same service if you are rejected. Sometimes you feel like you have established a strong rapport with the other person (like I felt I did with the physical chemistry professor), but if they don't agree with your career path they might give you a bad LOR.

This. "Testing" of references is done all the time in fields outside of medicine. Those I know in finance when this subject has come up have said it would be stupid not to test a reference you aren't sure about. I have had MDs recommend I do this about a reference I might be on the fence about.

The thing about references is there are always stipuations and rules surrounding them and it works both ways. Past employeers or anybody calling your reference can't techinically ask "were you fired from your last job" or questions along that line but there are many ways of getting around that and still finding out this info and you bet they do. You can even extend this type of idea into medicine.

Here's an example: You are applying for a residency/fellowship position at a pathology deparmtent. You have your rec letters in. In theory these should be the only people who's opinion of you will matter. There are some stipuations at some places at well that might restrict asking for outside references not listed. But in this case let's say on your resume there is reason to believe you worked with someone and didn't get a letter from them and that this person is someone the a residency application reviewer knows personally. You can bet your ass that person is going to get a call asking about you in that case. Hell, even if the person the people reviewing your app know is someone who wrote you a letter and they still want to ask some questions or talk about you, that reference will still get a phone call in this situation.

You could even apply some of these ideas to medical school interviews in terms of what ADCOMS can and cannot ask. They are limits to what they can ask you about your family or other personal issues. But if they are relevant to evaluating who you are and your candidacy you can bet they will find a way to tip toe around what is and isn't proper to get the info they need. And there is nothing wrong with any of this btw. Just know it.

What I will say is don't waste your reference letters time. This should only be done where there is legitimate concern about what a reference might write about you. And keep in mind this is hardly fail proof; what someone says on a phone call about you and what they write in a letter and more importantly how the tone of their letter is perceived vs what is said in an informal phone call can vary. But on the surface, if it is necessary to do this, do what you think is best. A bad reference will sink any application before it has a chance; don't waste thousands of dollars and a year applying with one if you can avoid it.

 

[itsogre]

??? so many questions here.
1) How many business jobs actually ask for literal letters? No serious HR manager would ever read letters. People make reference phone calls in the real world; no one sits down to read pages of stuff, much less those written by college professors. This was the case during my job search (broad range of big/small shops). If the job is asking for actual letters, you need to find better jobs to apply to tbh
2) How would getting feedback on LORs for some random small job have any positive impact on your med apps? Why would someone write the same letter for both? Maybe your p-chem prof would’ve loved for you to clerk at the furniture store but was against your going to med school.
3) Seeking out specific feedback on your LORs in particular is still unethical. It’s basically an excuse for you to find out what was written, which one could argue violates the waiver.

I understand what you mean. It was just a suggestion, since it worked for me (the small business was environmental monitoring and sampling, where its fine to use science and lab coordinator prof LORs for). I apologize if it came off as unethical. I never had access to my LORs, I was advised not to use that professor as a future reference.

 

[Goro]

Haven't a clue. But if you ask as BeachBlondie suggests, that's a good way to minimize the risk.

Poor interview skills, stats, and/or ECs or applying late are far more likely to be lethal to an app than a bad LOR.

Thanks Goro. I am super worried about one of my LoR's. The thing is I can't imagine someone would agree to write a letter if it is a negative one. Do you think they would?

 

[Syns]

Many competent letter writer specifically use a negative that they have noticed to give their letter legitimacy. I can't imagine a medical application would appreciate such candor but its common practice among many fields.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Thanks Goro. I am super worried about one of my LoR's. The thing is I can't imagine someone would agree to write a letter if it is a negative one. Do you think they would?

If I don't get any interviews I will know why I guess.

The reason legitimately bad LORS are such an issue is because they are so rare. Hence the odds of you getting one even if your reference isn't a huge fan of yours is still pretty low. And this is assuming your LOR writer isn't a huge fan of yours and not that you are just getting cold feet and going through the inevitable phase of questioning every part of your app phase that comes with appying to med school which is a huge(probably unrealistic assumption). The odds are strongly in favor that you'll be fine.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

The reason legitimately bad LORS are such an issue is because they are so rare. Hence the odds of you getting one even if your reference isn't a huge fan of yours is still pretty low. And this is assuming your LOR writer isn't a huge fan of yours and not that you are just getting cold feet and going through the inevitable phase of questioning every part of your app phase that comes with applying to med school which is a huge(probably unrealistic assumption). The odds are strongly in favor that you'll be fine.

I think he likes me as a person and thinks highly of my abilities. We had an issue in the past over me being late and my dedication to my work. Basically he said "you are one of the most competent and intelligent people I have worked with and you could probably be the top performer if you put your heart into it. I just feel that this job is not your top priority." That was 5 months before I asked him for a letter. Since then I haven't been late once. I did ask if he would be comfortable writing strong a letter of recommendation for me and he said no problem. I am just afraid of the possibility that he could be harboring some malicious intent to sabotage my med school app. Or that he might have good intentions but not know that any mention of a negative is a bad thing.

 

[itsogre]

I think he likes me as a person and thinks highly of my abilities. We had an issue in the past over me being late and my dedication to my work. Basically he said "you are one of the most competent and intelligent people I have worked with and you could probably be the top performer if you put your heart into it. I just feel that this job is not your top priority." That was 5 months before I asked him for a letter. Since then I haven't been late once. I did ask if he would be comfortable writing strong a letter of recommendation for me and he said no problem. I am just afraid of the possibility that he could be harboring some malicious intent to sabotage my med school app. Or that he might have good intentions but not know that any mention of a negative is a bad thing.

if he said that to you about tardiness and effort, I think you should have strong reservations about asking for his reference. Since then, has he mentioned the fact that you've improved? It's fair game for him to include in your LOR that you are unreliable and unmotivated, esp. if he commented on it. Would avoid this LOR.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I think he likes me as a person and thinks highly of my abilities. We had an issue in the past over me being late and my dedication to my work. Basically he said "you are one of the most competent and intelligent people I have worked with and you could probably be the top performer if you put your heart into it. I just feel that this job is not your top priority." That was 5 months before I asked him for a letter. Since then I haven't been late once. I did ask if he would be comfortable writing strong a letter of recommendation for me and he said no problem. I am just afraid of the possibility that he could be harboring some malicious intent to sabotage my med school app. Or that he might have good intentions but not know that any mention of a negative is a bad thing.

If someone says they are willing to write a strong letter for you, you kind of have to trust it in your case unless there are no better options. You are the best judge; has he ever commented on that issue since then. What is his overall impression of you now. Sometimes you just have to go ahead and apply warts and all.

 

[DokterMom]

Thanks Goro. I am super worried about one of my LoR's. The thing is I can't imagine someone would agree to write a letter if it is a negative one. Do you think they would?

If I don't get any interviews I will know why I guess.

If you're worried about it, approach that person and admit as much. If you're worried about a 'generic' letter because the person didn't know you well, ask them if they feel they know you well enough to write a 'strong' letter or if you should ask someone else who knows you better. If there's a specific instance or trait you're worried about -- ask them straight out if they can 'strongly support' your candidacy for medical school, and if not, what area(s) do you need to improve on.

I've written a number of enthusiastically strong and specific letters, one 'generically good' letter, and only one tepidly tip-toeing letter because I couldn't get out of it.

A person who hesitates and/or stalls is NOT the letter-writer you want.

This. "Testing" of references is done all the time in fields outside of medicine. Those I know in finance when this subject has come up have said it would be stupid not to test a reference you aren't sure about.

Ah, finance. That pinnacle of ethical purity.

 

[sephora89]

This. "Testing" of references is done all the time in fields outside of medicine. Those I know in finance when this subject has come up have said it would be stupid not to test a reference you aren't sure about. I have had MDs recommend I do this about a reference I might be on the fence about.

Ah, finance. That pinnacle of ethical purity.

This isn't a terrible idea though. Especially considering a bad LOR can sink an application, it actually seems like it's the safest thing to do.

 

[Doug Underhill]

There are some people- often hard science professors with Ph.Ds- who write brutally honest letters. These people often have a reputation for this if you ask around.

It is unethical to try to look at LORs that are supposed to be confidential. However, it is not unethical to apply for something else (like a scholarship or job) and indirectly gauge the feedback you get- if you get the scholarship or interview, the reference can't be that bad.

 

[GrapesofRath]

If you're worried about it, approach that person and admit as much. If you're worried about a 'generic' letter because the person didn't know you well, ask them if they feel they know you well enough to write a 'strong' letter or if you should ask someone else who knows you better. If there's a specific instance or trait you're worried about -- ask them straight out if they can 'strongly support' your candidacy for medical school, and if not, what area(s) do you need to improve on.

I've written a number of enthusiastically strong and specific letters, one 'generically good' letter, and only one tepidly tip-toeing letter because I couldn't get out of it.

A person who hesitates and/or stalls is NOT the letter-writer you want.



Ah, finance. That pinnacle of ethical purity.

I laughed when I saw that response but to be honest this isn't something I would consider unethical and is just simply along the lines of examples I listed above that happen all the times in fields including medicine. When people involved in admission do something such as tip toe around questions that border on what they can and can't ask to get important info for making a decisions and get references beyond what is listed its simply covering bases which is totally justifiable and honestly necessary. You covering your bases and checking on a suspect LOR in the right circumstance is no different.

Again, it's a far cry from you yourself looking at the reference. It's simply knowing what you can and can't do just like people in admission have to know what they can and can't do and plan accordingly when these type of questions are key to making a decisions.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

If you're worried about it, approach that person and admit as much. If you're worried about a 'generic' letter because the person didn't know you well, ask them if they feel they know you well enough to write a 'strong' letter or if you should ask someone else who knows you better. If there's a specific instance or trait you're worried about -- ask them straight out if they can 'strongly support' your candidacy for medical school, and if not, what area(s) do you need to improve on.

I've written a number of enthusiastically strong and specific letters, one 'generically good' letter, and only one tepidly tip-toeing letter because I couldn't get out of it.

A person who hesitates and/or stalls is NOT the letter-writer you want.



Ah, finance. That pinnacle of ethical purity.

They've already written a letter for me so it's water under the bridge. I'm just so worried that all of my hard work could be thrown away by one bad letter.

Would you personally rather write a bad letter or say no to writing a letter? Why couldn't you get out of writing that one letter?

 

[sephora89]

First, let me say that I agree 100% with what my wise colleague LizzyM has stated. I see maybe one bad LOR/interview cycle.


To your question, Lulu, I have seen comments like this in a bad LOR and they are enough to sink an app.

Other bad LORs have mentioned something like "poor work ethic", "not a team player" and "unable to trust group members".

They've already written a letter for me so it's water under the bridge. I'm just so worried that all of my hard work could be thrown away by one bad letter.

Would you personally rather write a bad letter or say no to writing a letter? Why couldn't you get out of writing that one letter?

Goro, do you feel one can redeem themselves from a bad LOR if they get new letters in the following cycle?

I would not stress it at this point. Just see how this app cycle shakes out and try to get feedback on your application from med schools toward the end of the cycle if it doesn't work out. I think most people would rather say no than write a bad LOR. @LuluLovesMe

 

[DokterMom]

They've already written a letter for me so it's water under the bridge. I'm just so worried that all of my hard work could be thrown away by one bad letter.

Would you personally rather write a bad letter or say no to writing a letter? Why couldn't you get out of writing that one letter?

I would MUCH rather not write a letter than write a bad one. The one I 'had to' write was a 'generic' reference for someone who had worked for me (unsuccessfully, in my opinion) for ~2 years. I had already hedged, then declined to write twice, but she wouldn't take 'no' for an answer. So she got her latter stating that she was hard-working and persistent, which she was. It did not say that she did a good job or that I'd hire her back.

 

[Doug Underhill]

You, in particular, always seem to be worried that something will ruin you, be it GPA-MCAT discrepancies, LORs, other things. Are you sure you're able to handle the stress of this occupation?

 

[LuluLovesMe]

You, in particular, always seem to be worried that something will ruin you, be it GPA-MCAT discrepancies, LORs, other things. Are you sure you're able to handle the stress of this occupation?

I think I am just a bit overloaded at the moment so I start getting stressed about everything. Between work/classes/volunteering and secondaries I don't really have time to sleep.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

Goro, do you feel one can redeem themselves from a bad LOR if they get new letters in the following cycle?

I would not stress it at this point. Just see how this app cycle shakes out and try to get feedback on your application from med schools toward the end of the cycle if it doesn't work out. I think most people would rather say no than write a bad LOR. @LuluLovesMe

Yeah. He doesn't strike me as a malicious person. Hopefully he agreed because he wanted to help me.

 

[Goro]

They're so rare that I don't know if anyone has reapplied to our program with new LORs, and got redeemed.

Goro, do you feel one can redeem themselves from a bad LOR if they get new letters in the following cycle?
@LuluLovesMe

This has been the case with me. I've only written one bad LOR, for someone I felt had no business applying to med school. I once had a particularly nasty colleague (whom my Mexican friend and I used to call "La Serpiente") ask me if I could write a LOR for her. I said I would. I was looking forward to trashing her but alas, she never asked me for it!

Keep in mind that LORs aren't supposed to be love letters; they're supposed to be honest evaluations.

I would MUCH rather not write a letter than write a bad one. The one I 'had to' write was a 'generic' reference for someone who had worked for me (unsuccessfully, in my opinion) for ~2 years. I had already hedged, then declined to write twice, but she wouldn't take 'no' for an answer. So she got her latter stating that she was hard-working and persistent, which she was. It did not say that she did a good job or that I'd hire her back.

 

[vellez]

This is the definition of dishonesty. Don't do this, even if you don't get caught, you don't want your first moves in medicine to be based on lies.

It's a better idea to build professional relationships. It's not that hard to get to know a person and make a good impression of them.

It might not be a bad idea to apply for a position at a business (if you or your family knows any small business owners) so someone there can vet your LORs.