Advantages to dual degrees

[dan0353]

Just wondering if anyone is doing a dual degree DVM + something else and what the reasons were and what you plan to do with both that you couldn't do with just the DVM.

I'm interested in possibly teaching undergrads one day or working in a society that protects endangered animals, would a DVM be suffice at most societies or universities or would I need a MPH, MA, or PhD?

I'm not really into the idea of getting a DVM/PhD because I dont want to be in school for another 8 years, but are most DVM/MA or MPH programs 4-5 years?

Any comments or advice would be much appreciated.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[wi girl]

At most major universities, to teach undergrads you have to have your PhD. Or, at least, that's what I've seen. To get a proper masters (both coursework AND research) it would take approximately 2 years over the 4 of DVM, and that's assuming that they would take your DVM courses as the coursework. Not a TON of the schools offer MA/MS either ... have you checked to see if the school you are going to/applying to does?For instance, I know madison will let you ... but it's kinda a pain to set up and there are a lot of hoops (I'm limbering up right now).


This is all based on what I've seen, and experience of my own researching into DVM/MS. Also, I have NO IDEA about the society thing ... maybe contact some of them?

 

[LVT2DVM]

If I decide to go to SMU, Im enrolling in their DVM/MBA program because of money. Foreign school = no Fed grants. Davenport University (Grand Rapids, Michigan) offers an online MBA program that allows you to get Stafford Loans to pay for vetschool via a refund. The program is completely online with 2 classes per semester each 8 weeks long (you only take one class each 8 weeks) so its not so much extra work. I think its a total of 8 semesters if you have no previous finance/business courses.

http://www.davenport.edu/Home/DegreesandMajors/Business/GraduateDegreesMBA/tabid/377/Default.aspx

 

[sheep girl]

At most major universities, to teach undergrads you have to have your PhD.

This has been true in the past for a majority of universities; however, this requirement has and is changing at most land grant universities, esp in Animal Science. Here for the past year, I have noticed that univeristies posting openings on the ASAS website are now accepting DVMs in the place of PhD for faculty. While I was a grad student in Animal Science, it was more common to think of a DVM and the equivalent of a Phd. (Eventhough, I think that belittles each degree program.)

If I am accepted to LSU, I plan to complete the DVM/PhD program because I am an overachiever and I want the PhD to complement my masters. I also want to teach at a veterinary school later in the future. I have already talked to the Dean of Admissions about the timeline (roughly 5 years for both degrees) and the professor I want to study under. I think the dual enrollment programs are ideal for people like us that want to limit the amount of debt and time we spend on working for two addional degrees. Why take out loans and spend eight years in school when we can do it in 5 years?

 

[wi girl]

Great point sheepgirl; I have no experience with land-grant universities, or ani sci really -- all my classes (NO an sci, all bio) have been taught by PhDs if not dual degrees (DVM or MD).

I guess take home is that if you want to be a professor, you'll make it work? And yes, I agree that if you are going to get your PhD, a dual degree is the way to go!

 

[LVT2DVM]

Sheepgirl..heres a stupid question; Since I havent done much research on the subject. Can you apply for a DVM/PHD program without having first achieved a Masters degree. Since my BS is in Education I would also like to get my PhD so I can teach but I havent even got my MS yet. Uggg...more school???

 

[researchvet]

Generally, if you want to teach at a college or above level, then you need a PhD. However, as some other posters have noted, desperate times call for desperate measures, and there is a shortage of vets interested in teaching, so I know some vet schools are hiring those without a PhD. While you may be able to teach without a PhD, getting a PhD will greatly improve your chances. Outside of academia, it really depends on what you want to do whether or not you need another degree. I have run across several schools that offer a MA. That could be one way to determine whether you'd like to pursue more research and possibly go on to get a PhD. I know Tufts offers a masters. In terms of an MPH, many schools offer dual degrees. There are also public health programs geared to those who already have a professional degree (MD, DVM, DMD, etc.) and therefore the programs are shorter.

 

[biobean]

Sheepgirl..heres a stupid question; Since I havent done much research on the subject. Can you apply for a DVM/PHD program without having first achieved a Masters degree. Since my BS is in Education I would also like to get my PhD so I can teach but I havent even got my MS yet. Uggg...more school???

i know this question was posed to sheepgirl, but since i have an answer i thought it might be okay
i am a senior undergrad and applied to DVM/PhD programs. i got interviews for two and accepted to one . it can be done without already having a master's!

 

[sheep girl]

Well, I do have a Master of Science in Ruminant Nutrition. But, you can get a PhD from most land grant universities without a MS. Actually, I know a few students that are doing this now at the University of Arkansas in Animal Science and Poultry Science. I never really thought of it untill one of my friends that was younger than me decided to skip the MS and get a PhD. But, doing this even outside of the vet school is hard. You have to have a lot of experience and had a very strong undergrad course load.

So, because of my previous experience seeing people without a masters get a PhD, I never have thought that completeing a DVM/PhD with out a masters was unusual. But, I do think that having a masters (10+ publications, extensive knowledge of statics and design, and etc.) will help me finish my PhD within my desired time limits. Yet, I still will have to give up some experience during clinicals in my 4th year if I want to finish in less than five years with a DVM and PhD.

 

[hoodle]

I'm a undergraduate, and I applied to 4 dvm/phd's and got into 3 - all of which are 7 to 8 year combined programs, different from the animal science dvm/phd that SheepGirl was talking about... a 5 year dvm/phd in effect means a 1 year phd, which is somewhat laughable, in my mind! But hey, if that works, go for it.

I want to do a DVM/PhD because I know I'm not interested in clinical medicine, because I'm interested in the career opportunities in academic veterinary medicine, specialty work, and governmental work. I also just really like research. Basically, I know I woud WANT to get a dvm/phd, and doing a joint program allows me to get at that goal directly, with the benefit of full financial support and a integrated philosophy which hopefully will synergize my clinical knowledge with becoming a fully-fledged, independent scientist.

what I don't know is whether I'll go the intership/residency route, or the postdoc route, after getting my DVM/PhD.

 

[wi girl]

I think we wrote about this on another thread ... to the best of my understanding, in the LSU dual degree "The time to complete both degrees may be shortened by 1-2 years with a concurrent approach rather than a sequential approach." Which would still be 6+ years ... I can't imagine finishing a PhD in a year either, as they say that the 4 years of DVM would NOT be shortened.

But hey, if you can get a dissertation done in a year -- wow! All the grad students I know are on 4+ years .... I personally want to go the MS approach, if I find that I miss research ... or maybe a sumer program ... I know that I want to go clinical. Yay for diversity of interests!

 

[sheep girl]

different from the animal science dvm/phd that SheepGirl was talking about... a 5 year dvm/phd in effect means a 1 year phd, which is somewhat laughable, in my mind!

It is not a one year Phd . (of course you cant get a phd in one year) Instead, you have not time off during vet school. You work on your Phd during certain semesters along with you DVM course work and during the summer and spring and winter breaks. Then, you have the option to try to finish up your research during your forth year while in clinicals(or you can finish after clinicals). You actually give up some of your hours of clinicals to work on your Phd. (you lose experience but save some time) Its not an Animal Science PhD either (sorry if I misled anyone). It is a Phd within veterinary medicine. What I am talking about is very intense. Only five students have completed it so far at LSU.

The main idea is to work on both throughout the four+ years you are in school. This option is not for the regular student!

 

[wi girl]

We're obviously not trying to denigrate your program -- especially those of us who are or potentially are following the same course. I just think that we're all interpreting things differently. From the website, it seems like you can take the graduate coursework during the semesters and breaks, but they don't mention research ... and I can't imagine doing research for only part-time while you are trying to also do DVM coursework, or being able to put a project on hold for a semester between summer and winter breaks ... I guess I would assume from this that you get grad school coursework out of the way during your DVM and then do research afterwards to get your dissertation, but .... ?? To be honest, I wouldn't mind taking a look if you have alternate information, because at madison, its kinda a free for all, w/o a structured program, and getting ideas is always nice.

 

[hoodle]

It is not a one year Phd . (of course you cant get a phd in one year) Instead, you have not time off during vet school. You work on your Phd during certain semesters along with you DVM course work and during the summer and spring and winter breaks. Then, you have the option to try to finish up your research during your forth year while in clinicals(or you can finish after clinicals). You actually give up some of your hours of clinicals to work on your Phd. (you lose experience but save some time) Its not an Animal Science PhD either (sorry if I misled anyone). It is a Phd within veterinary medicine. What I am talking about is very intense. Only five students have completed it so far at LSU.

The main idea is to work on both throughout the four+ years you are in school. This option is not for the regular student!

I understand that... but at other schools, when you're also working through breaks, cutting clinics short, etc, you're still looking at a 7 year commitment.

I guess my only comment is that if you're having trouble convincing me - and I'm fully on board with the idea of a dual degree program - you're going to have trouble convincing others, and that could be a continual source of frustration.

On the other hand, I really know nothing about the program at LSU or about the subjects you're interested in, and so I might be coming from an entirely different and irrelevant mindset!

 

[pressmom]

Here's the info on the program:

http://www.vetmed.lsu.edu/dvm_phd_option.htm

• Following the DVM degree, full-time enrollment in the graduate program will provide the balance of degree requirements for the PhD

So if sheep girl doesn't finish up while in the DVM program, she can finish after.

 

[biobean]

different from the animal science dvm/phd that SheepGirl was talking about... a 5 year dvm/phd in effect means a 1 year phd, which is somewhat laughable, in my mind!

i don't know if getting into these programs has let this go to your head, but that's not a very nice thing to say (whether the 1 year phd was the case or not).

I guess my only comment is that if you're having trouble convincing me - and I'm fully on board with the idea of a dual degree program - you're going to have trouble convincing others

i don't think sheepgirl needs to convince you. i'm pretty sure if an entire institution has this program going that someone's been convinced of it being useful.
best of luck sheepgirl!

 

[hoodle]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be mean. It's just that I do care deeply about these DVM/PhD programs, and I want to make sure that people go into them realizing that they are not "afterthought" programs. I've had people (at vet schools!) try to tell me that a PhD from a joint program is likely to be lightweight, and I've really had to struggle to convince them otherwise.

 

[wi girl]

I guess I'm just wondering the ability to finish the remaining requirements (research) in a year. Sheep girl wrote: "Yet, I still will have to give up some experience during clinicals in my 4th year if I want to finish in less than five years with a DVM and PhD." Most institutions take four years working on ONLY a PhD, because the research takes that long (otherwise, at Cornell Graduate School, everyone could graduate in three -- instead the average is 6). Understandably, the course requirements count for both, and you use clinical time to do research, but it still takes a long time to finish. It not that I don't think it can be done, just that I'm wondering how you'll get enough data for a dissertation in such a short period of time (~1 year) without working on it full time. Maybe its in a field that this is possible though ...

Sheepgirl, you said that you already had your faculty mentor; do you mind me asking the general field you'll be working in? I'm really only familiar with molecular/cell biology and genetics/development. Maybe other fields are faster?

Regardless, I really do wish you the best of luck, and hope that you succeed in your career goals.

 

[VAgirl]

i don't know if getting into these programs has let this go to your head, but that's not a very nice thing to say (whether the 1 year phd was the case or not).

...

i don't think sheepgirl needs to convince you. i'm pretty sure if an entire institution has this program going that someone's been convinced of it being useful.
best of luck sheepgirl!

Honestly, hoodle isn't trying to be mean. I've heard the exact same thing that she's reporting from lots of sources--that is, people (many of them PhDs or DVM/PhDs themselves) saying that they think any PhD achieved via a dual degree program would be lightweight and not enough to really garner you any true research respect. Their point of view was exactly like hoodle's...that if you're doing a 4 year DVM program as a 7 year DVM/Phd program, you're essentially doing a PhD in 3 years. Which is FAST.

Now, I'm NOT saying I agree with these people that it makes the dual degree program less worthwhile. Nevertheless, hoodle is exactly right. There are enough people who think this (not stupid bystanders, but people who have done DVMs and PhDs themselves, so really do know what goes into it) that it is a bias dual degree people are going to have to struggle against probably indefinitely. Add to that the fact that you've done a dual DVM/PhD program in 5 years (total!) rather than 7 and you're going to be facing a lot of skeptical people. Especially since this is way out of the norm.

This isn't potentially just a mild annoyance, either. Future employers, post-docs, etc. may look askance at a dual degree program, especially if it falls way outside of their preconceived notions of what those types of programs look like. So this isn't just annoying people on the internet being skeptical. Sheep girl would do well to prepare her strong defense of why this 5 year dual degree program is every bit as good as a 7 year dual degree program or a separately achieved DVM and PhD. She's going to need to argue that well in the future. Perhaps hoodle may even need to defend her choice, as well, but she seems well aware of that.

 

[CanadianGolden]

Some dual degree places do have "lightweight" PhDs. This is sometimes true if the PhD itself is done at the vet school. I can't speak for UC Davis, Cornell, or CSU, but I know that at Penn your PhD is done with the medical school, not the vet school--in other words, it is identical to any other PhD in, say, Genetics or Microbiology that you would complete if you came to Penn as a straight PhD student. This is not true at, for instance, VMRCVM, where I believe the PhD is done with the vet school itself. I wanted to be sure my PhD was equivalent to one that I'd get by doing the degrees separately.

For me, doing a dual degree program was important because I wanted integration between research and clinical medicine during my schooling. The financial support doesn't hurt, either, especially if you know you want the PhD (I would never enter a dual degree program for the sole purpose for having vet school paid for).

 

[biobean]

i didn't mean to say hoodle was wrong about the "lightweightness" of the dual degree programs. but if she's been herself trying to convince people that it is in fact worthwhile, then i'm not sure why it would make sense to turn around and say it is "laughable" to someone else.
anywho. i'm not gonna pursue the subject.

so why are people choosing dual degree programs over doing the degrees separately? i know there are financial benefits from the dual programs and it looks like canadian golden likes the "intertwinedness" of clinical and research stuff. any other thoughts?

 

[CanadianGolden]

i didn't mean to say hoodle was wrong about the "lightweightness" of the dual degree programs. but if she's been herself trying to convince people that it is in fact worthwhile, then i'm not sure why it would make sense to turn around and say it is "laughable" to someone else.
anywho. i'm not gonna pursue the subject.

so why are people choosing dual degree programs over doing the degrees separately? i know there are financial benefits from the dual programs and it looks like canadian golden likes the "intertwinedness" of clinical and research stuff. any other thoughts?

In short: finances, integration, time saved.

And the PhD I will get is not compromised at all. If I couldn't find a program with a "real" PhD , I would do the degrees separately. I want to go into veterinary pathology in a research lab, probably in academia.