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Advice constructing school list
- Thread starter fiesta
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I also was a dual major in engineering + a life science field, so I may be of assistance. (I did Electrical Engineering + Biochemistry)
You have an amazing application. Expect to get rejected from a bunch of middle-tier schools because they'll assume you won't be serious applying there.
When you do your secondaries, you'll have to put in extra time for your second tier schools to convince them you're actually interested.
Keep this in mind for interviews.
You're going to get a lot of people who point blank ask you why you'd go there over various top 5-10 schools.
You will also get asked questions like "which professors have you specifically researched at this school?"
Lastly, if you're really interested in a second tier school but didn't get an interview, write them a letter and tell them. (do this before February)
With regards to your specific questions:
Yes, put your papers under review in your application.
You have 5 papers, which is a good number for "one entry per paper."
Have your other activities be your volunteering / leadership / unpublished research.
I'd add Yale (I'm a little biased as I'm going there in the fall).
Other than the omissions of Yale I see nothing wrong with your list.
20 is A LOT of schools. If you're doing a job / school next year, it's really hard to finish the secondaries in a timely fashion.
You could definitely shave off a few schools.
Interview Logistics (an extension to your question #2)
Are you from California? If you are, you will probably want to travel to slightly fewer interviews. If you do 1/week for an extended period of time you'll get sick, and when you're sick you will interview poorly. Considering how awesome your app is, if anyone interviews you and you appear passionless and boring, they might assume you're not excited to be there.
Most of the schools you listed aren't going to pay for your airfare, which can be a problem. Almost all of them will pay for your lodging, but if you're from California the airfare is way more expensive.
MD/PhD vs MD
If you're excited for MD/PhD and less excited for MD, you can make your life a lot easier applying only to MD/PhD.
This will make your letters / app easier to complete.
It also helps you during interviews, because you'll have a stronger answer to the classic "what if we admit you to MD?" and "what if you had to choose MD vs PhD?"
Also, your app so competitive that you should get a billion MD/PhD interviews.
Communication Skills
Based on your app it looks like you've been practicing explaining technical concepts to students, so you should excel in this.
However, it will serve you to practice explaining your research sometime before you start interviewing. It helps if you do it under different time constraints (e.g., explain it in 5 / 10 / 30 minutes).
Some interviews are literally "here's a pen and a giant pad of paper. Explain your research."
When to Apply
A lot of people tell you to apply in June.
Although this is sound advice, it doesn't matter as much for most MD/PhD programs, as they tend to wait till fall (October ish) before they start handing out interviews.
However, your app is strong enough that you could apply mid-to-late October / November and still get a bunch of interviews.
DON'T DO THAT. You'll have a miserable summer / fall if you apply late. Just apply ASAP and enjoy the success.
Also, with your number of schools, finishing the secondaries will take you a long time, so that is yet another reason to apply over the summer.
Letters
(assuming you're applying to MD-PhD only). Tell your letter writers you are only applying to MD-PhD.
You only need 3-4 for MD-PhD. (3 is enough for almost every school)
The letters from your PIs are the most important. A lot of interviewers will take them very seriously and will bring up specific things in those letters.
You should spend a bit of your time right now on those letters. The letter from your PI is particularly important.
IMO, having 7 letters or whatever is going to result in you getting a few boring letters that would slightly hurt you, so only use them for schools that specifically ask for weird letters.
If you haven't done so, take a course taught by your PI. Obviously get an A+. This lets your PI's letter function as double-duty for a few schools, and increases the strength of the letter.
Hypothesis-Driven Research / Engineering
Make sure you actively avoid any negative stereotypes.
1) In your personal statement, make sure you talk about your motivation for MEDICINE, and don't get nerdy about computers.
2) Make sure you know how you feel about hypothesis driven research and data science.
This is especially important.
Remember, a lot of people who interview you / read your essay might not like engineers.
Some people hate data science.
Furthermore, the data-driven approach / engineering approach to research is philosophically in opposition to what a lot of people think MSTP is about.
Obviously, I think what matters most is how you feel about it. To some extent, it's weird that you're even interested in working in medicine, considering the mismatch between the world of computing and the world medicine.
Overall
Write a good personal statement and ensure your letters all say great things about you and that you're cut out for the MD-PhD lifestyle.
If you do that, you'll get interviews from a ton of top 10s-20 ranked schools.
You have an amazing application. Expect to get rejected from a bunch of middle-tier schools because they'll assume you won't be serious applying there.
When you do your secondaries, you'll have to put in extra time for your second tier schools to convince them you're actually interested.
Keep this in mind for interviews.
You're going to get a lot of people who point blank ask you why you'd go there over various top 5-10 schools.
You will also get asked questions like "which professors have you specifically researched at this school?"
Lastly, if you're really interested in a second tier school but didn't get an interview, write them a letter and tell them. (do this before February)
With regards to your specific questions:
Yes, put your papers under review in your application.
You have 5 papers, which is a good number for "one entry per paper."
Have your other activities be your volunteering / leadership / unpublished research.
I'd add Yale (I'm a little biased as I'm going there in the fall).
Other than the omissions of Yale I see nothing wrong with your list.
20 is A LOT of schools. If you're doing a job / school next year, it's really hard to finish the secondaries in a timely fashion.
You could definitely shave off a few schools.
Interview Logistics (an extension to your question #2)
Are you from California? If you are, you will probably want to travel to slightly fewer interviews. If you do 1/week for an extended period of time you'll get sick, and when you're sick you will interview poorly. Considering how awesome your app is, if anyone interviews you and you appear passionless and boring, they might assume you're not excited to be there.
Most of the schools you listed aren't going to pay for your airfare, which can be a problem. Almost all of them will pay for your lodging, but if you're from California the airfare is way more expensive.
MD/PhD vs MD
If you're excited for MD/PhD and less excited for MD, you can make your life a lot easier applying only to MD/PhD.
This will make your letters / app easier to complete.
It also helps you during interviews, because you'll have a stronger answer to the classic "what if we admit you to MD?" and "what if you had to choose MD vs PhD?"
Also, your app so competitive that you should get a billion MD/PhD interviews.
Communication Skills
Based on your app it looks like you've been practicing explaining technical concepts to students, so you should excel in this.
However, it will serve you to practice explaining your research sometime before you start interviewing. It helps if you do it under different time constraints (e.g., explain it in 5 / 10 / 30 minutes).
Some interviews are literally "here's a pen and a giant pad of paper. Explain your research."
When to Apply
A lot of people tell you to apply in June.
Although this is sound advice, it doesn't matter as much for most MD/PhD programs, as they tend to wait till fall (October ish) before they start handing out interviews.
However, your app is strong enough that you could apply mid-to-late October / November and still get a bunch of interviews.
DON'T DO THAT. You'll have a miserable summer / fall if you apply late. Just apply ASAP and enjoy the success.
Also, with your number of schools, finishing the secondaries will take you a long time, so that is yet another reason to apply over the summer.
Letters
(assuming you're applying to MD-PhD only). Tell your letter writers you are only applying to MD-PhD.
You only need 3-4 for MD-PhD. (3 is enough for almost every school)
The letters from your PIs are the most important. A lot of interviewers will take them very seriously and will bring up specific things in those letters.
You should spend a bit of your time right now on those letters. The letter from your PI is particularly important.
IMO, having 7 letters or whatever is going to result in you getting a few boring letters that would slightly hurt you, so only use them for schools that specifically ask for weird letters.
If you haven't done so, take a course taught by your PI. Obviously get an A+. This lets your PI's letter function as double-duty for a few schools, and increases the strength of the letter.
Hypothesis-Driven Research / Engineering
Make sure you actively avoid any negative stereotypes.
1) In your personal statement, make sure you talk about your motivation for MEDICINE, and don't get nerdy about computers.
2) Make sure you know how you feel about hypothesis driven research and data science.
This is especially important.
Remember, a lot of people who interview you / read your essay might not like engineers.
Some people hate data science.
Furthermore, the data-driven approach / engineering approach to research is philosophically in opposition to what a lot of people think MSTP is about.
Obviously, I think what matters most is how you feel about it. To some extent, it's weird that you're even interested in working in medicine, considering the mismatch between the world of computing and the world medicine.
Overall
Write a good personal statement and ensure your letters all say great things about you and that you're cut out for the MD-PhD lifestyle.
If you do that, you'll get interviews from a ton of top 10s-20 ranked schools.
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Garritano, thanks so much for the feedback. I have a couple questions off of what you wrote.
Obviously the true reason is that I'd like to get MSTP training, but to answer their questions should I point out PIs that I want to work with or departments that are strong? I think all the schools I listed have departments that fit these two criteria.
Which ones would you suggest? I'd rather not say where I am from but I am okay being on either coast.
A couple rookie questions here--do MSTP programs always specify the letters they want? Would letters from volunteer ECs where I had leadership experience be helpful? Would it look bad if I had only 1 letter from professor who taught me, and I don't submit a humanities letter? And unfortunately my PI doesn't teach classes that I could take.
This is a really good point and something I was considering as I started to write my PS draft. I plan to talk about CS more as an addition to a toolbox that I can use both as a physician and a scientist. Do you think it would be a good idea to scale down how much I talk about personalized medicine and big data?
Definitely will consider, thanks! And congratulations on your acceptance.
Obviously the true reason is that I'd like to get MSTP training, but to answer their questions should I point out PIs that I want to work with or departments that are strong? I think all the schools I listed have departments that fit these two criteria.
Which ones would you suggest? I'd rather not say where I am from but I am okay being on either coast.
A couple rookie questions here--do MSTP programs always specify the letters they want? Would letters from volunteer ECs where I had leadership experience be helpful? Would it look bad if I had only 1 letter from professor who taught me, and I don't submit a humanities letter? And unfortunately my PI doesn't teach classes that I could take.
This is a really good point and something I was considering as I started to write my PS draft. I plan to talk about CS more as an addition to a toolbox that I can use both as a physician and a scientist. Do you think it would be a good idea to scale down how much I talk about personalized medicine and big data?
Definitely will consider, thanks! And congratulations on your acceptance.
Yes, PIs + Departments is a good idea.
Furthermore, if the school has institutions you like, point it out. Lastly, know about the school's culture and curriculum. If you are interviewing at a school that has no grades and you think that is awesome, mention it. Most schools are interviewing you partly to see if you'll "fit in" (if you're interviewing you probably met all their standards, so they want to get a feel for your personality / communication skills / etc).
I'm hesitant to list specific schools I wouldn't apply to, because the entire list you put there is good and I would feel arrogant saying "school X is bad, don't go there." Furthermore, it's very hard to actually know which schools are a bad fit for you, due to my lack of experience.
Lastly, it'll be hard for YOU to know which place you want to go to school until you actually go there.
You're going to spend almost a a decade (or more, if you do a residency there!). That is such a long time that it'll actually have a huge influence on your life-long friends, and possibly who you start a family with.
Unless you've lived in both city / suburban environment or on both coasts / the midwest, etc, you might not realize how much you might enjoy or dislike a bunch of locations. For example, Einstein / UCI / UCLA / UCSD / Chicago all have very different environments...some of which some people hate during the winter, some people hate culturally, etc, etc. Until you go there you won't know for sure.
That being said, your app is so strong that you can cut a few schools and still sleep well at night.
No problem, we all start off not knowing this answer!
I believe they all should specify in their website who the want letters from.
They typically only want three letters. Most schools specify a minimum of one letter from a researcher you worked under.
Some specify at minimum two research letters.
I believe there are extra requirements from schools like Chicago / Columbia / Boston University. I recall that a few schools wanted at least one letter from a someone who taught one of my science courses, and I think one school asked for two letters from someone who taught my science courses.
I personally got 3 letters when I started my secondaries. Two were from MDs I researched with, one was an MD-PhD. One letter was from someone who also taught me three times (used this as science). Last minute, I got a 4th LoR from one my science professors from undergrad, but I don't remember where / if I actually used it.
Don't worry - it won't look bad if you only have 1 LoR from one of your professors (with the exception of schools that require 2).
Your GPA / MCAT is so good that no one will have any doubt you can handle the medical school coursework.
If your GPA was considerably lower, I might have given slightly different advice, but for MD/PhD, your letters are supposed to convey
1) You think like a scientist and turn out good research / will be a superb researcher in the future.
2) You understand what you're getting into.
3) You have good motivations for what you're doing. If they have a sentence about your ECs, it can help during interviews.
4) You have good character. (e.g., people like you).
A note on Letters
You may have read a bunch of advice on getting your letters early. The reason for this is it can randomly delay your application, and it's quite stressful to be in a position of having to remind your letter writer to finish the letter (it feels rude to effectively be saying "hurry up!").
Humanities Letter
Almost never matters unless they school specifically asked for it, and even then it might not matter because you're doing MD-PhD. I asked one of my mentors if this would help and she said it had no influence at UCLA (maybe she's wrong?).
Leadership Letters
Matters less than you think for MD-PhD. This won't hurt you, and you should get them. (use a LoR service).
Here is what I recommend you consider:
Your interviewers will often glance through your letters of recommendation, and will probably pay close attention to your LoR from your PI(s).
During the interview, they will raise specific points brought up in those LoRs. If you had a million LoRs about stuff you're not passionate about, this isn't as helpful compared to having 3x letters from researchers, one who specifically mentioned "X taught 6 high school students who loved him! They especially liked blah blah blah."
This actually happened to me during an interview, and it took me off guard (in a good way!)
I was explaining my research (which was a highly technical physics simulation) and my interviewer said "wow, I learned so much just from talking to you. I can see why the students you mentored raved about you in their reviews!"
A Note on Leadership + Education
The fact that you're doing MD-PhD raises the value of education-related ECs. Proving you have an interest in teaching is valuable, because your dream job should be Professor or Clinical Professor. This means in your dream job, you're either teaching residents or students of some kind.
Lastly, if you actually love teaching and it shows, you'll likely share this in common with your interviewer and the two of you can talk about it.
Well, I'm very happy to hear you're thinking about this! I personally feel that medicine needs more people like you.
Sadly, I am not on the admissions committee of every medical school.
I don't know if anyone has a good answer to this.
A lot of people told me to dumb down my essays. This is likely the correct for the PS, but I don't think know if it's correct for the MD-PhD essay or for secondaries.
Your PS
The fact that you have a CS degree is going to telegraph that you don't have social skills / care about people.
Your research probably doesn't dramatically help this.
Use your PS to explain why you want the MD. (implicitly, this answers "why not get a PhD?")
If you'd be happy doing a PhD, no problem, just do a PhD! However, if you want the MD, there should be a calling you feel that is not related to the good you can do as a person. You can do plenty of good as a PhD, especially considering your computing skills. Your PS should explain why you want to see patients, and this goes beyond your philosophy of a scientist.
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Solid advice and thanks for going above and beyond with the answers! I definitely want the MD and care about being to see patients as part of my career. So you would recommend using most of the PS to talk about this, with maybe one or two paragraphs max about the physician scientist part? I know there's a lot more room to talk about this in the MD/PhD essay and the secondaries.
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If you don't have a coast preference, VCU has a strong psychiatric and behavioral genetics program (for a genetics/neuro phd interest). Emory might be another good school to add. I second Garritano's comment about it being hard for me to say what schools to cut--I think it very much comes down to personal preference at this point. When I was narrowing down schools, I also took into account location preferences. For example, I have no desire to live in NYC, so I didn't apply to any of those schools for that specific reason. I second what Garritano said above about the Depts/PIs. I tried to identify several faculty that were doing interested I was interested in at each program I chose. For example, some schools that I considered applying to had a much stronger molecular neuroscience focus, so I chose to not apply to those schools since that didn't fit my interests as well as the other schools.
Re: PS/essays--My pre-health adviser gave me the advice that the essays should relate to each other, but not be regurgitations. My PS focused on a personal and research experiences related to X that motivated me to pursue a research career related to improving our ability to diagnose and treat X problem. In the MD-PhD essay, I focused on how each skill set uniquely provided skills necessary to investigate the questions I am interested in. From what you said, I might talk about the application of CS skills in both essays. In the PS, it might be about how the CS training opened your eyes to the need of that kind of skill set in biomedical research, and in the MD-PhD it might be how the MD-PhD training in conjunction with CS will help you answer your research questions.
You seem to be a very well qualified applicant. Best of luck to you!!
Re: PS/essays--My pre-health adviser gave me the advice that the essays should relate to each other, but not be regurgitations. My PS focused on a personal and research experiences related to X that motivated me to pursue a research career related to improving our ability to diagnose and treat X problem. In the MD-PhD essay, I focused on how each skill set uniquely provided skills necessary to investigate the questions I am interested in. From what you said, I might talk about the application of CS skills in both essays. In the PS, it might be about how the CS training opened your eyes to the need of that kind of skill set in biomedical research, and in the MD-PhD it might be how the MD-PhD training in conjunction with CS will help you answer your research questions.
You seem to be a very well qualified applicant. Best of luck to you!!
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I generally agree with what's been said before. I would also add the advice I got when I was applying, which was to apply only to schools you can see yourself doing research at because they have strong programs that you're interested in. For instance, I knew that I wasn't going to be interested in UChicago or Columbia, because they didn't have programs suited for my interests, but University of Washington and UCSD did. I applied to the latter two and got interviews at both.
Also, generally speaking with your school list: 20 is, in my mind, too many. If you're as fantastic of an applicant as you seem from your stats, you'll probably get a lot of interviews. You'll end up either nonstop flying across the country for interviews at places you're not that excited for, or you'll end up canceling quite a few of them. You could probably get away with 12-14.
Also, take a look at University of Washington for genetics. They have a fantastic group of people who are working on genetics with a lot of CS integration. I think you might be interested in that given your majors.
Also, generally speaking with your school list: 20 is, in my mind, too many. If you're as fantastic of an applicant as you seem from your stats, you'll probably get a lot of interviews. You'll end up either nonstop flying across the country for interviews at places you're not that excited for, or you'll end up canceling quite a few of them. You could probably get away with 12-14.
Also, take a look at University of Washington for genetics. They have a fantastic group of people who are working on genetics with a lot of CS integration. I think you might be interested in that given your majors.