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Advice on applying to Oto

Discussion in 'Otolaryngology' started by TheThroat, Feb 23, 2006.

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  1. resxn

    resxn

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    The programs with which I was affiliated cared a lot about grades on Surgery. They cared a little bit about medicine. They didn't care about the others. However, bad scores even on psych said something about the student and stood out. Likewise, acing things across the board also stood out. I doubt that your clinical grades will hurt you. To be honest they're not going to help that much either--those are pretty typical of the ENT applicant pool.
  2. blz

    blz Senior Member

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    if you're gunning for the top programs you'll probably need to stand out some other way (extensive research, etc.) because all those kids will have 260+/AOA you're applying with.
  3. 5150

    5150

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    Thanks for the advice guys. Good to hear from an attending who's been part of the whole process before. I guess to be more specific, I have >260 on the step I, am not junior AOA (due to mix of mix of honors/HP in preclinical years), and 1 publication (not as the lead author) in addition to the grades mentioned above, so pretty much the best thing I have going for me at this point is just my Step I. I'm not really gunning for top academic programs so much as I am gunning for an extremely competitive geographic region (which coincidentally has some elite programs, but I'd be more than willing to go to a "lesser" program for the sake of geography).

    I'm just concerned I'll appear to be a student who only works hard in things he's interested in (which rexsn sort of alluded to). I'm guessing that ultimately where I rank on a match list will depend more on my interview/personality match with a program than anything else. Thanks for the advice, rexsn.
  4. resxn

    resxn

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    Nothing truer has ever been said by someone with a reasonable CV.
  5. IceMan2008

    IceMan2008

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    So I am thinking about either orthopedics or ent as a first choice with gen surg as a back up. My board scores are on the low end of average S1: 231 and my clinical grades are very mediocre 1H surg 2HP (med and peds) and the rest passes. I completed a PhD in an orthopedics basic science lab with about six or so pubs.

    I am considering ENT because I really like the clinical field and the research possibilities are great. From what my med school dean tells me third year grades trump everything, and the likelihood of matching is poor. She thinks I aught to focus more on gen surg programs where she believes I have a fighting chance of matching.

    Anyone care to offer me some candid perspective.
  6. ent

    ent

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    I think your PhD and pubs can potentially make up for your grades if you play the cards right. Now I do not know if programs will ask why you don't have ENT publications, but they may see that you are a motivated individual who is truly into research and actually gets thing done (like 6 pubs). About step 1, the avg is >235, so half the people are below this value. You should also talk to your home institution's ENT department. And when you do so, try to focus on your positives. An Honors in surgery and a HP in medicine may be enough for programs. Good luck!
  7. 5150

    5150

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    Quick question: I've heard that some programs download applications from ERAS the first day they are available (September 1). I'm curious as to how this impacts your research experiences. For instance, if you're working on a few projects but none of them will be submitted by Sept 1, does that mean these programs will not know about your research until (if) you interview at them? Is it important to have all your projects submitted by September so that on your ERAS you can mark those projects as submitted for abstracts?
  8. Catalyst

    Catalyst Enjoying Life

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    Some programs offer interviews in early October, with most offering from what I remember in late October/early November (some even wait longer, though most offers should go out by Thanksgiving). If a program decides on interviews early and your projects are not in ERAS, you are correct in that the programs will not know about your research until you interview and mention it.

    Many programs had a cover sheet for each interviewee with the board score, honors grades, and research papers. So yes, I would say it's important to have as many projects as possible submitted by September (some programs even used the presence of a publication as a cutoff).
  9. radslooking

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    .
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2008
  10. 5150

    5150

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    Hmm.. thanks Catalyst, good to know. That's sort of what I figured. I guess I better get crackin!
  11. rpr52121

    rpr52121

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    hey, i've been reading forum for a little while now because I really want to go into ENT. I need some advice on research.

    I'm currently a 3rd yr med student at a not-well-known med school that is not top 40. Also, my school/"associated hospital" has no ENT residency program. I'm in the top quarter of my class and got a 237 on step 1. I'm currently working on getting honors in medicine and surg.

    I have found a research project at my school that is being started by the Chief of the ENT department here, but it seems to be moving slowly and if lucky I'll only be able to write one paper (possible two) from it.

    I know right now I'm sort of in the middle of the pack to the low end of the pack of ENT applicants and trying to figure out the best way to improve my chances. Basically, I've been looking at doing year-long research programs, such as Doris Duke, in ENT programs between 3rd & 4th year to improve my chances and research part of my application.

    Are these year-long research progams something I should completely try to get into to have a reasonable chance to match into ENT?

    Thanks.
  12. rpr52121

    rpr52121

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    Me again, just wondering what some of the better places to start with to compile info on ENT residencies, such as research, good training, excelling in certain aspects (H/N, vocals, oto/neuro, pedi), cases, hours, etc.

    I know of this site and otomatch, are there any other good places to start with?
  13. TheThroat

    TheThroat SDN Moderator Moderator Emeritus

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    Those aren't bad stats and if you add a good research project you aren't in a bad position. I wouldn't even think about post-grad research at this point. Focus instead on research projects while in med school and working hard on developing relationships at your school.
  14. I'm in a similar position and asked the same questions on this thread. I really struggled with the decision for about a month and had many discussions with my wife and friends. I've decided not to take a year off.
  15. otobon

    otobon

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    Hi all. Knowing for sure that ENT is what I want for my future and having applied to most of the ENT programs all over the US (except for military and California positions) I would like to ask for advice on applying for preliminary/categorical surgery as a second choice...would that help me to match next year? Also do all surgery programs do a ENT rotation in PY1?

    Little background: I am a IMG, did 1 1/2 years in research in Augusta, Georgia, got 1 publication, good LORs, graduated in 2002. Most of my last MD years were focused on ENT as well as my last work in my home country.
  16. exmike

    exmike NOR * CAL

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    cant imagine a reason for cat/prelim gen surg residents to rotate through ent and dont know any that do. OMFS and Plastics do at some programs, for obvious reasons.
  17. otobon

    otobon

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    Well, thank y for the answer. I just received my step 2 ck score but seems too low for ent...plus i am IMG. I received the advice to go for an easy match now (IM or Family Med) and then try to switch or finish the 1st residency and then try to do a second one in ENT....I am capable of doing both or something else....advice pls.
  18. montypython

    montypython Member

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    Why don't you just go for ENT the first time around and then go into the "easy" match if it does not work out. I have also heard of IMG's who got in their home program after working as a research scut monkey for several years.
  19. medstylee

    medstylee 1K Member

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    i'm curious what people think about this...

    i will definitely be applying to ent this upcoming year. i did a short ent elective at my school as part of my gen surg rotation. my advisor (ent faculty member) tells me not to bother with a sub-internship at my school because they already know me well enough to write me strong letters (i've been doing research with them for a few years now). i hear that performance on the ent sub-I is a pretty important part of the application, so i'm curious what people think of this. would it be a detriment to me to not rotate at my own program? i am planning on doing an away or two and i think i will try and rotate at our children's hospital. anyway, i appreciate people's input.

    congrats to all those who matched! :thumbup:
  20. resxn

    resxn

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    This all depends on from whom you're getting letters. Surely it sounds like your advisor is behind you. However, if you're also planning on getting one from your Chair you better ask him if you should do the SubI or not at your school. If he says it's not needed, then it's not needed. Use your time elsewhere more effectively. Although, I've been aware of Chairs telling their med studs not to rotate only because they didn't want them around and although they would write a letter, they felt that they weren't a great candidate. Just make sure that you know where you stand.
  21. ENT123

    ENT123

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    Seriously? According to this report from the NRMP only 9 people got >260.

    http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf
  22. blz

    blz Senior Member

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    I'd guess it's probably higher than 9 this year with USMLEworld and all these other resources becoming more widespread.

    I heard my home program used a cutoff of 250 for interviews and they interviewed 40 people.
  23. medstylee

    medstylee 1K Member

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    if that's true, that's really ridiculous. what's your home program?
  24. Pir8DeacDoc

    Pir8DeacDoc Cerumen Extractor

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    That sounds really high for a cut off. In all honesty the sad part of that is that your program is missing out on A LOT of really good folks who aren't putting up numbers like that if they are cutting off that high. I tend to think this is more of urban legend passed down to make things seem more competitive than they already are.


    We have a cut off in a general sense but in a small field like ENT PD's should try and take the time to see if you might be the right fit for the program in other ways, assuming you have some reasonable level of accomplishment on Step I.


    Have hope normal folks out there, the three most awkward people I interviewed last year had the three highest board scores of our pool of interviewees. At the end of the day I want to make sure I can work with you and that you'll pull your weight. I don't particularly care if you're Einstein or not.
  25. medstylee

    medstylee 1K Member

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    so i've noticed that several programs have application deadlines around October 1 and a few even have deadlines earlier than that. my deans office doesn't upload our transcripts to eras until october. you guys think that's going to cause me to miss deadlines? i'm wondering if maybe i should try and see if they'll make an exception for me and get things uploaded earlier. let me know what you think.
  26. BOOURNS

    BOOURNS Member

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    The deadline is probably for ERAS submission. Most programs are understanding about dean's letters/transcripts/etc going out later in the fall.
  27. Danny Noonan

    Danny Noonan

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    What I can expect with the following stats:

    Step 1: 241
    Step 2: not taken yet
    Grades: Top 1/3 of class. Not AOA. Honors in Medicine. High Pass in Surg... mixture of H and HP's on the rest.
    School: US MD school without ENT program
    Away rotations: Will be doing a couple
    Research: 1 first author case presentation pub (non ent). 2nd author submitted review article (non ent). ENT chart review in progress. Another project planned (ENT).
    Personality: Not an issue I hope.
    I have a few non-medical talents and accomplishments that may set me apart.

    Do I have a realistic shot at ENT?
  28. BOOURNS

    BOOURNS Member

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    Yes- letters and personality will be important.
  29. Counterstrain

    Counterstrain blookah!

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    I have a dilemma in that my school has no ENT department. I'm currently starting my 3rd year, and need to get some research done. I did some psychological research, but that was in undergrad and was never published. How should I go about securing some ENT research opportunities? Do I need to do research externships? Or would research in other areas of medicine (eg cardiology) suffice?
  30. TubesNTonsils

    TubesNTonsils

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    There is a lot of great information on this site, and I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I went to medical school in the midwest where there is a large, established Oto program, did my residency at a well known program on the west coast and am now doing my fellowship. I had below average Step 1 scores (below average for Oto that is) but was senior AOA. I also took a year off in med school for Oto research. The way I look at the process of matching into an Oto residency is in two basic steps:

    1) Getting in the door (aka Getting an Interview)
    2) Sealing the deal (aka Matching)

    Getting in the door
    Keep in mind that programs review 200+ applications each year and have to pare that number down to 30-60 depending on the size of the program. Hence the heavy reliance on "objective" measures like Step 1 scores or AOA status. Everyone knows these are imperfect tools but you have to start somewhere. I believe that the following factors can increase your chances of getting an interview; having one or all of these factors will not guarantee an interview but will increase the chances. At the same time, not having one of these attributes doesn't preclude you from getting an interview.

    - Step 1 score: Yes, the median score for Oto applicants is higher than the overall median. If you rock the test you look more appealing; if you are below 200 most programs will set your application to the side. In our program Step 2 scores didn't play a huge role, but I suppose it would be helpful if your Step 1 wasn't so great and you improved 15+ points on Step 2. But if you get the same below average score that might look bad.

    - AOA status: Not all schools participate in AOA. If you are AOA then great! If not it won't kill you but you should have some other aspect of your application that makes you stand out.

    - Visiting/sub-I rotation: Lots of mixed opinions on this one. I probably wouldn't have gotten an interview at my program without doing it so for me it worked out. Take a critical look at the feedback you got from your clinical rotations. If people consistently tell you that you're awesome and they want to you go into their field, chances are good that you will wow the program where you do an away rotation. Most years we matched at least 1 person who had done a visiting rotation with us. But an away rotation can also be a big hurt. There was more than one student who did a rotation with us who looked amazing on paper, but by the end of their first week none of us could stand being around them. The longer you spend with people the more opportunities there are for them to find a reason not to like you. If there is a specific place you want to match, doing a rotation there shows that you are serious about your interest in their program. If you do too many then people wonder what your deal is. See my "tips for a good away rotation" below.

    - Research: Taking a year (or more) off to do research clearly demonstrates a serious interest in research and that's a good thing. Even if you did it in another field before you decided on Oto, having the experience can only help your application. After all cell cultures, gels and other basic science are research skills that can be applied to any field. A one-month research elective is a token gesture but nonetheless faculty seem to like seeing these tokens appear on applications. It lends at least a small bit of credibility to your statement that you are interested in research. ALL programs want to hear that you are interested in research. Be prepared to discuss your research; if it's obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about that is very very bad.

    - Letters of recommendation: You MUST have at least one letter from an Otolaryngologist. The closer you are to your letter writers the better. My mentor must have written a great letter because I was asked about the vignettes that were apparently in that letter during many of my interviews. Most would agree that you should have a chair's letter. The dean's letter doesn't count for much because everyone knows that they are generic and are basically a summary of all of the positive comments people have left on their evaluations of your performance.

    - A good mentor: If there are one or two places you really want an interview, a trusted mentor may pick up the phone and call someone they know there to say why they should interview you. Be a little cautious about broadcasting your interest in other programs in case you may want to stay at your home institution.

    Sealing the Deal
    You've now hopefully gotten 8-10 interviews; there really isn't any magic in the number but obviously the more interviews you do the better the odds of matching at one of them. At this point it's not as important what your scores or AOA status are. What people are most interested in is figuring out how they'd feel about spending hours upon hours with you over the next 5 years. Will you be a team player? Will you help the attendings produce some publications? Will you be teachable? Will you be pleasant to be around? Will you not kill anyone?

    Your goal should be to be memorable in a good way. There may be some interesting thing about your life story, some impressive accomplishment you've achieved, some breakthrough research you did, or people may just remember that you were really fun to talk to.

    Interview day:
    - Be nice to EVERYONE. This includes the secretaries and residency coordinators who arrange the interview days. If you think you can get away with being a jerk to someone lower down on the chain, think again. That information gets around quick.
    - Be ENTHUSIASTIC. Some people come off as being ho-hum about being at their interview. This does not make for a successful interview day. Sometimes I think this impression is formed if people are too quiet; this is unfortunate for people who are shy, but do your best to smile and ask questions.
    - Spend time with the residents. Two good reasons - first to see if you like them and want to work with them. Second because of the influence they have on the rank list. Regardless of what they say the residents do influence the list, mostly in terms of the really good or the really bad applicants. Around interview season everyone talks about the applicants, and that's when the stories will come out about the stand-outs.
    - Dress (and groom) for the part. As silly as it may seem, people remember these things. You don't want to be "the guy with the shaggy hair or earring" or "the girl with the really short skirt or a lot of makeup."

    After the interview:
    - Do send a thank you card/note. This will not make or break your application but it's the polite thing to do. And no, you don't have to send one to every single person you met. But if you had a special connection with someone, consider sending them a personal note. They could become your best advocate when it comes time to parse out the list
    - Talk to your mentor. Otolaryngology is a small field and people know each other. When a program wants the "real scoop" the PD or other faculty will call someone they know at the applicant's home institution.

    Tips for a good away rotation
    I'm tired so this will be short. Be a team player. Be willing to help on rounds - changing dressings, removing drains, writing notes, etc. Carry supplies in your pocket. Hold hook in the OR. Don't be rude to a nurse or junior resident then turn around and kiss the attending's you-know-what. Follow the rules of hierarchy - don't try to show up a resident in an effort to score points with the attending. Act in such a way that when you leave the service the residents will wish that the next student was as good as you were. The attendings will ask the residents how a sub-I is doing, and ask what they think of you. If your school doesn't have an Oto department this could be a chance for you to find a research project or a mentor in the field. Don't brag about all the wonderful things you've achieved. People will come to realize how awesome you are without you having to tell them.

    Whew! Congrats if you made it to the end of this post. GOOD LUCK with the process. Otolaryngology is an awesome field and the hard work is well worth it.
  31. Glaxo

    Glaxo

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    awesome post TnT thanks!
  32. jackbauer

    jackbauer Member

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    Do oto programs require step 2 scores? Recommendations on when to take it?
  33. purpleyellow

    purpleyellow

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    what do you guys think the mysterious "cut off" of step1 score is?
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2010
  34. Pir8DeacDoc

    Pir8DeacDoc Cerumen Extractor

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    230's if fine, assuming the rest of your application looks good
  35. BOOURNS

    BOOURNS Member

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    Supposedly there are programs with hard cutoffs for step 1 scores (I've heard 240 for some), but I think most will look at the entire picture. Like pir8 says, if you are strong elsewhere, a step in the 230s won't be a deal breaker for gettng into ENT.
  36. blz

    blz Senior Member

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    I was recently at an interview at a program with 5 residents/yr and the chairman stated that they usually went down to #12 on their rank list to fill their class. The chairman's comment got me thinking about other programs. Does anyone have any insight into how far on average programs go down on their ranklist? Specifically, I am wondering about the top 10 programs.
  37. TubesNTonsils

    TubesNTonsils

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    Most top programs will match within their top 10-15 but it can vary year to year. After all, it is a match process and programs can't always predict which applicants they loved will love them back.

    Regarding the "top 10 programs" from US news...I don't think that the best places to seek care as a patient are necessarily the best places to train as a resident. I'd be curious to hear what other post-residency people think.

    If you're like me and don't know what US news has to say, here's their list from the web:

    1. Johns Hopkins
    2. UT Houston
    3. Iowa
    4. Pitt
    5. Mass eye and ear
    6. Penn
    7. Mayo
    8. UCLA
    9. Cleveland Clinic
    10. Wash U
  38. purpleyellow

    purpleyellow

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    ended up not getting honors for surgery...
    will this hurt my changes considerably?
  39. Pir8DeacDoc

    Pir8DeacDoc Cerumen Extractor

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    Is there anything you will change based on what anyone says? You can't change it now and so you might as well continue ahead.


    As an aside before you cut your wrists, it's not a big deal. It falls far down a list of things we look at. Hang in there, no reason to sweat things you can't change. :thumbup:
  40. YanCanCook

    YanCanCook That my friend....

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    Hey guys, would love to get some insight on a prospective MS-3 interested in Otolaryngology.

    Step1: 250
    MS-3 grades: A's for Med & Family Med, A- for Surg & Peds, waiting on other clerkships
    Research: Abstract for Ophtho at national meeting, will conduct a research year at NIH through HHMI. No other pubs
    I come from a top 25 school in the South East/East Coast, with a decent ENT dept.

    Just wondering how competitive I will be and if I have a decent/good shot at CA schools and big metropolitan areas. It seems like every year, it gets harder and harder. Plus, the stories and comments on this site always make me uneasy and anxious
  41. montypython

    montypython Member

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    Board scores and grades will get your foot in the door. CA programs are always tougher to get into and you will probably need to eithier do an away or have some strong ties or reasons why you want to train in the area. Can't comment on other big cities but assume that they are also more desirable d/t location. I would say the odds are in your favor for matching as long as your apply early and broadly. Whether you get the location of choice will depend on a lot of factors that will be determined next year.

  42. senseigmg

    senseigmg Junior Member

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    I've spent a few days searching here and otomatch for an answer, but I'm not sure I found what I'm looking for. I'll be starting rotations in July, at a non-university hospital that has an ENT department, but no residency. I'm trying to figure out how to plan my electives so I can best prepare myself for doing away rotations in 4th year, and I'm not quite sure what to take. Also, I did bench research in undergrad, but nothing since, so I'm not quite sure how to begin the whole process for medical research (finding a preceptor, designing a project, etc. I had previously jumped in on a project in progress that went nowhere). Any input would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,

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