After a couple years out as an attending, grass is definitely greener for us

[Mad Jack]

The light at the end of the tunnel, as framed in this thread... is a paycheck.

Danger!

Keep in mind, it has been heavily researched and "making more money" past a certain point is not going to save you from burnout, enable you to truly enjoy your job, or make you happy.

I hope the light at the end of the tunnel is finishing training being able to practice precisely the type of medicine in the way that I feel is best for the patient population I like best.

Choose your specialty content carefully, medical students.

180k or 300k... it doesn't really matter. Do what you enjoy.

The money doesn't make you happier study was eventually disproved. More money does make you happier but there are diminishing returns because you need substantially more for increased quality of life. 280k after having 140k makes you about as happy as going from 35k to 70k, for instance

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[LebronManning]

Great post. All you read on SDN is doom and gloom about everything medicine as if physicians don't still have the highest paying most secure job on average.

My pops is a hospitalist too who made 500k+ (17-19 days per month) in his good years by working 7on/7off and occasionally picking up shifts.

Hospitalist is the new EM but without the BS of the ER

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Great post. All you read on SDN is doom and gloom about everything medicine as if physicians don't still have the highest paying most secure job on average.

My pops is a hospitalist too who made 500k+ (17-19 days per month) in his good years by working 7on/7off and occasionally picking up shifts.

Hospitalist is the new EM but without the BS of the ER

To be fair you’re really just trading one crop of BS for another though between EM and hospitalist.

Both have remarkably high burnout rates, and income that varies substantially with geographical location and working conditions.

 

[LebronManning]

To be fair you’re really just trading one crop of BS for another though between EM and hospitalist.

Both have remarkably high burnout rates, and income that varies substantially with geographical location and working conditions.

True. I guess it's what BS you prefer.

 

[Liberty_99]

On a unrelated note IMGs start their residency by 23 !!? What the hell

 

[getdown]

On a unrelated note IMGs start their residency by 23 !!? What the hell

That's because they went directly into med school from high school.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

That's because they went directly into med school from high school.

Paid for by the government lol

 

[usctrojans24]

I'm a hospitalist. I currently work 10 night shifts (12 hours a shift) each month (1440 hours a year) and pull in $258K base pay. This is not including benefits and bonus incentives.

That is an average work week hour of 27.6 and effective hourly wage of $179.

All I had to do was complete a 3 year residency after med school, and internal med was pretty easy to match vs other specialties.

And I am an example of the "lower paying" specialty (derm and EM would be more per hour on average)

And no, I don't reside in podunk nowhere or work locums for the pay, I live in Chicago.

Compare this to those who went the MBA path for finance, banking etc. To earn the same as us per year, the lot of them are breaking their backs with far lower effective hourly wages in the $40-50 range. And in a recession, their job security is always hanging by a thread.


Tldr: the light is at the end of tunnel, just hang in there

Are you worried at all about job security, over saturation, or lower wages (per hour) in the future for Hospitalists?

 

[KeikoTanaka]

Do you recommend a fresh-FM grad do hospitalist work if they intend to move to doing outpatient later on - perhaps to jumpstart earnings when paying off loans?

 

[Frazier]

What content have you chosen, just out of curiosity?

Inpatient palliative medicine as my primary focus with a splash of outpatient hospice. This serves my main passion. There is definite satisfaction that comes with functioning as a Subspecialist within the content area that is most gripping to me intellectually/emotionally. Add on sprinkles of EM shifts for procedural fun, exercising ability as a Generalist, and also for stress.

Why is one of the distant secondary motivations stress? It keeps the frame-of-reference in check for those other 27 days of the month.

Financially, EM has a significantly higher hourly than Palli. But, so what? I could have went into neurosurgery and made more than both combined... but $$$ shouldn't be the point and that's my point.

I became a pre-med as a nontrad in 2009 and with time and experiences, point-of-view has certainly changed... As I'm sure it has and does for everyone... The specifics aren't as important as the evolution continuing to progress in the correct direction (IMO finding what you're actually passionate about content-wise, even within a specific specialty... and then doing THAT).

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Great post. All you read on SDN is doom and gloom about everything medicine as if physicians don't still have the highest paying most secure job on average.

My pops is a hospitalist too who made 500k+ (17-19 days per month) in his good years by working 7on/7off and occasionally picking up shifts.

Hospitalist is the new EM but without the BS of the ER

Most of the bs are rehearsed by ballboys from googling "insert specialty" salary.

It's not hard to make 400-500K in the real world assuming that you're willing to work 10-15% harder than your colleagues.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Inpatient palliative medicine as my primary focus with a splash of outpatient hospice. This serves my main passion. There is definite satisfaction that comes with functioning as a Subspecialist within the content area that is most gripping to me intellectually/emotionally. Add on sprinkles of EM shifts for procedural fun, exercising ability as a Generalist, and also for stress.

Why is one of the distant secondary motivations stress? It keeps the frame-of-reference in check for those other 27 days of the month.

I became a pre-med in 2009 and with time and experiences, point-of-view has certainly changed... As I'm sure it has and does for everyone... The specifics aren't as important as the evolution continuing to progress in the correct direction (IMO finding what you're actually passionate about content-wise, even within a specific specialty... and then doing THAT).

Real quest: what are your hours on those night shift, and how many pts are you seeing per shift?

 

[Frazier]

Real quest: what are your hours on those night shift, and how many pts are you seeing per shift?

Shifts are 10 hours and I aim for 2 pph including charting. The latter flexes with acuity that comes through the door that particular shift... some days 1.6, some days 2.4.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

Shifts are 10 hours and I aim for 2 pph including charting.

Hours are from when to when?

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Most of the bs are rehearsed by ballboys from googling "insert specialty" salary.

It's not hard to make 400-500K in the real world assuming that you're willing to work 10-15% harder than your colleagues.

Dude. 400-500k outside of medicine is NOT a easy to come by. Do people make it? Sure. But those pulling in that kind of cash are top of their field in most cases.

Unless you make partner at a big law firm - which is absurdly competitive - you’re never coming close to 400k. In banking it’s the same story, lots of people make it to 150-250, but beyond that you’re competing for a very very limited number of jobs. The competition at the tops of these fields rivals the derms and orthos of medicine world easy.

 

[LebronManning]

Dude. 400-500k outside of medicine is NOT a easy to come by. Do people make it? Sure. But those pulling in that kind of cash are top of their field in most cases.

Unless you make partner at a big law firm - which is absurdly competitive - you’re never coming close to 400k. In banking it’s the same story, lots of people make it to 150-250, but beyond that you’re competing for a very very limited number of jobs. The competition at the tops of these fields rivals the derms and orthos of medicine world easy.

I think he was talking about medicine with the 400-500k. Like real world of medicine and how it's different than when you google physician salaries.

 

[Stagg737]

The light at the end of the tunnel, as framed in this thread... is a paycheck.

Danger!

Keep in mind, it has been heavily researched and "making more money" past a certain point is not going to save you from burnout, enable you to truly enjoy your job, or make you happy.

I hope the light at the end of the tunnel is finishing training being able to practice precisely the type of medicine in the way that I feel is best for the patient population I like best.

Choose your specialty content carefully, medical students.

180k or 300k... it doesn't really matter. Do what you enjoy.

I mean, once I pay off my $250k in debt I'll agree that past x dollars it won't make much difference. Until I'm out of debt and have a foundation for my retirement I'll gladly take that 300k over 180k all day every day.

I do agree with picking a field one enjoys though. No point in pursuing something that is going to make you miserable.

 

[321931]

I'm a hospitalist. I currently work 10 night shifts (12 hours a shift) each month (1440 hours a year) and pull in $258K base pay. This is not including benefits and bonus incentives.

That is an average work week hour of 27.6 and effective hourly wage of $179.

All I had to do was complete a 3 year residency after med school, and internal med was pretty easy to match vs other specialties.

And I am an example of the "lower paying" specialty (derm and EM would be more per hour on average)

And no, I don't reside in podunk nowhere or work locums for the pay, I live in Chicago.

Compare this to those who went the MBA path for finance, banking etc. To earn the same as us per year, the lot of them are breaking their backs with far lower effective hourly wages in the $40-50 range. And in a recession, their job security is always hanging by a thread.


Tldr: the light is at the end of tunnel, just hang in there

Dam that's crazy. I guess the grass is greener. I know plenty of dentists on 4 day workweeks pulling in way more then 250k.

However, at the end of the day, should always do a job because you enjoy it. If you hate dentistry, then even though you are working 32 hours a week...it still sucks in the end.

Find something you enjoy and go with it.

Waiting for a premed to say his/her friend doing better working for FB or Google--like it's easy to land these gigs.

My brother in law works for one of these big firms. He graduated 22 from NYU with scholarships so his debt load was in the 50-70k? I don't recall the exact number but it wasn't 6 figures.

I know its hard to believe but his career is on fire. First job he landed was making 120k. He paid off his loans by 25. Every other month he has offers from other start-ups/big companies recruiting him promising a good salary....but the clutch is stock stock stock. He just transferred from his new job to work at a start up with real estate. His pay? 220k and stock options which if the mature and go public with an IPO valued at whatever amount would easily put him into the millionaire status in 5 years. My wife would keep talking about it...and I was like dude whatever hes young and bragging I don't believe it. I didn't believe it until he showed it to me because he wanted to get my opinion about the stock options. I trade/invest in equities alot and I was stunned at the offer. Great offer.

When I went to NY and visited his workplace, its like they say, ping pong tables, catered food, and just a bunch of nerds computing out. In addition to that, unlimited PTO.

Let me put it this way. There is a HUGE need for comp sci who are GOOD at what they do. The companies WILL pay for good people.

With loans and time spent in school...a good comp sci major can come out way ahead. By the time you graduate, they have a good amount of equity with no debt.... However that being said, I think a comp sci major brain is wired differently then an artist...or a physician...or a dentist. Even though you can be the world's best physician...you may not be able to comprehend comp sci the same. And vice versa.

I do wish I took a stab at comp sci though. Alot of my bay area friends are debt free, millionaire status before 30 sorta thing. But I don't think my brain is wired for it. I was never good at math/physics/theory. Alas grass is always greener.

 

[SoCal24]

Dam that's crazy. I guess the grass is greener. I know plenty of dentists on 4 day workweeks pulling in way more then 250k.

However, at the end of the day, should always do a job because you enjoy it. If you hate dentistry, then even though you are working 32 hours a week...it still sucks in the end.

Find something you enjoy and go with it.


My brother in law works for one of these big firms. He graduated 22 from NYU with scholarships so his debt load was in the 50-70k? I don't recall the exact number but it wasn't 6 figures.

I know its hard to believe but his career is on fire. First job he landed was making 120k. He paid off his loans by 25. Every other month he has offers from other start-ups/big companies recruiting him promising a good salary....but the clutch is stock stock stock. He just transferred from his new job to work at a start up with real estate. His pay? 220k and stock options which if the mature and go public with an IPO valued at whatever amount would easily put him into the millionaire status in 5 years. My wife would keep talking about it...and I was like dude whatever hes young and bragging I don't believe it. I didn't believe it until he showed it to me because he wanted to get my opinion about the stock options. I trade/invest in equities alot and I was stunned at the offer. Great offer.

When I went to NY and visited his workplace, its like they say, ping pong tables, catered food, and just a bunch of nerds computing out. In addition to that, unlimited PTO.

Let me put it this way. There is a HUGE need for comp sci who are GOOD at what they do. The companies WILL pay for good people.

With loans and time spent in school...a good comp sci major can come out way ahead. By the time you graduate, they have a good amount of equity with no debt.... However that being said, I think a comp sci major brain is wired differently then an artist...or a physician...or a dentist. Even though you can be the world's best physician...you may not be able to comprehend comp sci the same. And vice versa.

I do wish I took a stab at comp sci though. Alot of my bay area friends are debt free, millionaire status before 30 sorta thing. But I don't think my brain is wired for it. I was never good at math/physics/theory. Alas grass is always greener.

I don't want to derail this thread but the bold is just incorrect unless you have a large patient base or multiple offices. My cousin has been out of dental school for 5 years and her income has not exceeded 180k working 40 hrs a week (HCOL area/major city east coast) (Still has 250k in loans). I will say though if you have the business acumen and relevant skills your income can exceed 250k but not working 32 hrs week. They are some young dentists roughly late 20s or early 30s in my area who are making 300k+ but they work a lot and have multiple offices.

 

[321931]

I don't want to derail this thread but the bold is just incorrect unless you have a large patient base or multiple offices. My cousin has been out of dental school for 5 years and her income has not exceeded 180k working 40 hrs a week (HCOL area/major city east coast) (Still has 250k in loans). I will say though if you have the business acumen and relevant skills your income can exceed 250k but not working 32 hrs week. They are some young dentists roughly late 20s or early 30s in my area who are making 300k+ but they work a lot and have multiple offices.

Good points. Unfortunately you need to tell your cousin to go into ownership route. Dentists have the second lowest default rate in business. It's not rocket science to run a practice, keep overhead low and make a pretty good income. But yes, I derailed the thread. Sorry about that.

But I would sincerely reach out to your cousin and tell them to go to Dentaltown and read up on ownership.

Business is a whole different tier then anything medical or dental. If one has no knack for business, then dentistry as a whole sucks. Medical, PT, Nursing, whatever is way better as a 8-5 work for someone else career.

 

[SoCal24]

Good points. Unfortunately you need to tell your cousin to go into ownership route. Dentists have the second lowest default rate in business. It's not rocket science to run a practice, keep overhead low and make a pretty good income. But yes, I derailed the thread. Sorry about that.

But I would sincerely reach out to your cousin and tell them to go to Dentaltown and read up on ownership.

Business is a whole different tier then anything medical or dental. If one has no knack for business, then dentistry as a whole sucks. Medical, PT, Nursing, whatever is way better as a 8-5 work for someone else career.

I was gonna put this in my other post but I don't think my cousin wants to put in the effort to run her own practice but I'll tell her to look into it. The area that you know these dentists making 250+ is a HCOL area?

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I was gonna put this in my other post but I don't think my cousin wants to put in the effort to run her own practice but I'll tell her to look into it. The area that you know these dentists making 250+ is a HCOL area?

Your cousin messes up by staying in SoCal.

Just being real here.

 

[SoCal24]

Your cousin messes up by staying in SoCal.

Just being real here.

Lol I live on the east coast (Major City) so does my cousin

 

[321931]

I was gonna put this in my other post but I don't think my cousin wants to put in the effort to run her own practice but I'll tell her to look into it. The area that you know these dentists making 250+ is a HCOL area?

No effort into running your own practice? Then you will cap out at 180-200k working 5 days a week for someone else. That's it simply put. You will never achieve 300-500k unless you are an owner. Why? Because you don't assume risk, so you don't get the reward.

Yes I know plenty of dentists that make a good living in HCOL. I live in Seattle WA and do very well for myself.

Socal/CA is alot harder to make it work, but I have met many dentists from NY/CA and we compare collections, overhead, costs, and they all make a very healthy living on 32 hours a week. One of my good gf's did a start up in Manhatten. Worked herself out of insurance companies and clears half a mil on 4 days a week. Didn't think it was possible, but it is.

But the fact remains, if you aren't willing to take a risk, you will top out at real quick as an associate working 5 days a week.

 

[wamcp]

Are you worried at all about job security, over saturation, or lower wages (per hour) in the future for Hospitalists?

In the long run yes, I am worried, only because of politics.

Look at the headlines of coming negative political changes and threats to overall reimbursement. Bernie Sanders, Kamala Harris, AOC. Changing to medicare for all or something similar will slash physician compensation in all fields, not just hospitalists.

Look at the NHS, where attending docs make ~110k USD. (General internal medicine jobs in Consultant).

See Canada, where hospitalists are making garbage rates of ~$900 USD for a single day shift (I have made $1800-2000 for a day shift at a prior moonlighting hospitalist gig...literally more than double the Canadian). Hospitalist | Canadian Society of Hospital Medicine

Or look at Japan, where they make ~130 USD for working even MORE average hours of work a week than in the UK (Hospital doctors feeling the strain | The Japan Times).

Not to mention all these countries have higher taxes, which will also increase for us if our politicians implement similar healthcare systems.

 

[Liberty_99]

That's because they went directly into med school from high school.

But isn't that unfair to AMG !? Why hasn't govt done anything about it !? Isn't this a misuse of Medicare budget !?

 

[Liberty_99]

In the long run yes, I am worried, only because of politics.

Look at the headlines of coming negative political changes and threats to overall reimbursement. Bernie Sanders, Kamala Harris, AOC. Changing to medicare for all or something similar will slash physician compensation in all fields, not just hospitalists.

Look at the NHS, where attending docs make ~110k USD. (General internal medicine jobs in Consultant).

See Canada, where hospitalists are making garbage rates of ~$900 USD for a single day shift (I have made $1800-2000 for a day shift at a prior moonlighting hospitalist gig...literally more than double the Canadian). Hospitalist | Canadian Society of Hospital Medicine

Or look at Japan, where they make ~130 USD for working even MORE average hours of work a week than in the UK (Hospital doctors feeling the strain | The Japan Times).

Not to mention all these countries have higher taxes, which will also increase for us if our politicians implement similar healthcare systems.

Why can't we doctors form strong unions to negotiate with insurance and govt ?

 

[Liberty_99]

What do you guys think of the new Medicare reimbursement scheme and collapse of level 2-5 ? Do you think this could bring private practices ?

 

[resiroth]

The money doesn't make you happier study was eventually disproved. More money does make you happier but there are diminishing returns because you need substantially more for increased quality of life. 280k after having 140k makes you about as happy as going from 35k to 70k, for instance

It wasn’t disproved. What you’re referring to was a study that found while “satisfaction” continued to increase as wealth/income increased, “enjoyment of life” fell off dramatically.

Which probably matches with a lot of our perceptions in real life. Who hasn’t met a disgruntled surgeon making 800k a year, vs some pediatrician who is relatively cheerful and happy making 1/4 as much.

Money Can Buy Satisfaction–If Not Happiness Is one of many articles covering it.

Another one of my favorite studies found that virtually all people (regardless of wealth) felt they would feel financially secure if they had roughly twice as much wealth as whatever they happened to have at the time.

Beware the hedonic treadmill.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

It wasn’t disproved. What you’re referring to was a study that found while “satisfaction” continued to increase as wealth/income increased, “enjoyment of life” fell off dramatically.

Which probably matches with a lot of our perceptions in real life. Who hasn’t met a disgruntled surgeon making 800k a year, vs some pediatrician who is relatively cheerful and happy making 1/4 as much.

Money Can Buy Satisfaction–If Not Happiness Is one of many articles covering it.

Another one of my favorite studies found that virtually all people (regardless of wealth) felt they would feel financially secure if they had roughly twice as much wealth as whatever they happened to have at the time.

Beware the hedonic treadmill.

Although limited, I have met more disgruntled Peds c/o about their salary and lifestyle than I do from surgeons making 800+K. All the 800+K guys are happy as hell talking about sport games and hot cars. There are always a few *****s making 800+K who are disgruntled. But that’s due to life choices by having 2+ baby mommas plus child support.

This talk about low paying specialties docs being happier is either a delusion or a lie by these people to make themselves sleep better at night.

I’m not hating on anyone. These are my objective viewpoints from observation.

 

[resiroth]

Although limited, I have met more disgruntled Peds c/o about their salary and lifestyle than I do from surgeons making 800+K. All the 800+K guys are happy as hell talking about sport games and hot cars. There are always a few *****s making 800+K who are disgruntled. But that’s due to life choices by having 2+ baby mommas plus child support.

This talk about low paying specialties docs being happier is either a delusion or a lie by these people to make themselves sleep better at night.

I’m not hating on anyone. These are my objective viewpoints from observation.

You really think your average trauma surgeon is happier than your average pediatrician?

I’m not saying income is inversely associated with happiness - far from it - I’m saying that “happiness” as an emotion isn’t experienced more frequently the more money you have beyond around 70-100k. That’s what research has found, and continues to find.

What you’re describing is a study that found “satisfaction” is higher the more money you have. I think that makes sense too. Are medical students going to Harvard more satisfied with life vs UCLA? Quite possibly. Are they as a group, happier? I doubt that. It’s just when someone asks you how satisfied are you with your life you take stock of it. For many people how much money you have is an easily quantifiable metric to (in part) judge how successful your life has been. Doesn’t mean you’re happier on a day to day basis, and in fact, they aren’t (according to all research on the subject).

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

You really think your average trauma surgeon is happier than your average pediatrician?

I’m not saying income is inversely associated with happiness - far from it - I’m saying that “happiness” as an emotion isn’t experienced more frequently the more money you have beyond around 70-100k. That’s what research has found, and continues to find.

What you’re describing is a study that found “satisfaction” is higher the more money you have. I think that makes sense too. Are medical students going to Harvard more satisfied with life vs UCLA? Quite possibly. Are they as a group, happier? I doubt that. It’s just when someone asks you how satisfied are you with your life you take stock of it. For many people how much money you have is an easily quantifiable metric to (in part) judge how successful your life has been. Doesn’t mean you’re happier on a day to day basis, and in fact, they aren’t (according to all research on the subject).

Yes I def think my trauma surgeon is happier than my Peds preceptors. In medicine, you choose to be trauma surgeons, not settle to be trauma surgeons. The inverse must be true for Peds bc I was w/ 4-5 Peds docs and all of them are c/o about stuff in their field everyday.

I have rotated through 3-4 teaching hospitals along one coast of the US, and happiness is correlated to money made. However, I think the consensus as to the number 1 factor to happiness in my opinion is being in the field that you look forward to going to work everyday. Something about Peds that turn all of them jaded and whiny. Don’t know and don’t care. I just know that I’m not doing it.

 

[321931]

Yes I def think my trauma surgeon is happier than my Peds preceptors. In medicine, you choose to be trauma surgeons, not settle to be trauma surgeons. The inverse must be true for Peds bc I was w/ 4-5 Peds docs and all of them are c/o about stuff in their field everyday.

I have rotated through 3-4 teaching hospitals along one coast of the US, and happiness is correlated to money made. However, I think the consensus as to the number 1 factor to happiness in my opinion is being in the field that you look forward to going to work everyday. Something about Peds that turn all of them jaded and whiny. Don’t know and don’t care. I just know that I’m not doing it.

I think there's a case study where at a certain point- more money doesn't mean more happiness.

Something like after 100k, happiness doesn't increase to much afterwards...until you are doing like 300-500k+

I found that my happiness didn't exactly increase after making more money. I found having more time off and traveling with the extra time and money that made me happy. If I worked 6 days a week and made 100k more, I think I would be miserable. 4 days week, 3 days off on weekends, and then 5 weeks off in a year...great balance and money helps for sure.

 

[Mad Jack]

It wasn’t disproved. What you’re referring to was a study that found while “satisfaction” continued to increase as wealth/income increased, “enjoyment of life” fell off dramatically.

Which probably matches with a lot of our perceptions in real life. Who hasn’t met a disgruntled surgeon making 800k a year, vs some pediatrician who is relatively cheerful and happy making 1/4 as much.

Money Can Buy Satisfaction–If Not Happiness Is one of many articles covering it.

Another one of my favorite studies found that virtually all people (regardless of wealth) felt they would feel financially secure if they had roughly twice as much wealth as whatever they happened to have at the time.

Beware the hedonic treadmill.

Happiness is an overrated and childish thing to live for. The happiness treadmill is far more treacherous than the hedonistic one, for happiness is much more difficult to come by

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

Anecdote for the money/happiness thing: My uncle makes 3+ million per year. Absolutely miserable. Do what you enjoy, and be around people that you love.

 

[afib123]

It is not about money. It is about what money means to that individual. I think I am someone that likes to make a lot of money and doing plain primary care without working any extra shifts would make me unhappy.
Someone else might hate their 500k surgeon salary if they don't have time with their family.
So ppl need to figure out what they want in life and chase that and those are the happiest people

 

[PhillyMed777]

Anecdote for the money/happiness thing: My uncle makes 3+ million per year. Absolutely miserable. Do what you enjoy, and be around people that you love.

How does he make 3 mil? And how I can do this?

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

How does he make 3 mil? And how I can do this?

Would be more accurate to say his net worth goes up 3 million per year. Cardiologist for 35 years, lived frugally and invested everything in the stock market since the day he became an attending.

 

[Sephirakra]

These are my objective viewpoints from observation.

Did you mean to say this?

 

[spacegun]

Dam that's crazy. I guess the grass is greener. I know plenty of dentists on 4 day workweeks pulling in way more then 250k.

However, at the end of the day, should always do a job because you enjoy it. If you hate dentistry, then even though you are working 32 hours a week...it still sucks in the end.

Find something you enjoy and go with it.


My brother in law works for one of these big firms. He graduated 22 from NYU with scholarships so his debt load was in the 50-70k? I don't recall the exact number but it wasn't 6 figures.

I know its hard to believe but his career is on fire. First job he landed was making 120k. He paid off his loans by 25. Every other month he has offers from other start-ups/big companies recruiting him promising a good salary....but the clutch is stock stock stock. He just transferred from his new job to work at a start up with real estate. His pay? 220k and stock options which if the mature and go public with an IPO valued at whatever amount would easily put him into the millionaire status in 5 years. My wife would keep talking about it...and I was like dude whatever hes young and bragging I don't believe it. I didn't believe it until he showed it to me because he wanted to get my opinion about the stock options. I trade/invest in equities alot and I was stunned at the offer. Great offer.

When I went to NY and visited his workplace, its like they say, ping pong tables, catered food, and just a bunch of nerds computing out. In addition to that, unlimited PTO.

Let me put it this way. There is a HUGE need for comp sci who are GOOD at what they do. The companies WILL pay for good people.

With loans and time spent in school...a good comp sci major can come out way ahead. By the time you graduate, they have a good amount of equity with no debt.... However that being said, I think a comp sci major brain is wired differently then an artist...or a physician...or a dentist. Even though you can be the world's best physician...you may not be able to comprehend comp sci the same. And vice versa.

I do wish I took a stab at comp sci though. Alot of my bay area friends are debt free, millionaire status before 30 sorta thing. But I don't think my brain is wired for it. I was never good at math/physics/theory. Alas grass is always greener.

I know a couple of friends who are doing really well in computer science jobs too, starting out at these famous companies, now at nice startups too. But I don't think they're doing as well as your brother, but they're still in the six figures range, debt free, etc. They love their job but I hear from them that a lot of these jobs are very competitive to get, most computer science majors don't get them. It sounds like it's like competing to work at a top law firm or one of the big accounting firms or consulting firms. Great for those who get it, then they can go almost anywhere after that, get rich, but hard for everyone else. I don't know how much the average computer science major makes or where they end up. And it sounds to me, the older you get in the tech industry, the less likely you are to get these cushy gigs. There seems to be some unspoken ageism going on. But still, if you're one of the lucky ones, then it could be worth it. I sometimes think about it too. But I'm already too far in med to quit so I'm stuck now lol, but I like medicine so I'm cool.

 

[KnuxNole]

No effort into running your own practice? Then you will cap out at 180-200k working 5 days a week for someone else. That's it simply put. You will never achieve 300-500k unless you are an owner. Why? Because you don't assume risk, so you don't get the reward.

Yes I know plenty of dentists that make a good living in HCOL. I live in Seattle WA and do very well for myself.

Socal/CA is alot harder to make it work, but I have met many dentists from NY/CA and we compare collections, overhead, costs, and they all make a very healthy living on 32 hours a week. One of my good gf's did a start up in Manhatten. Worked herself out of insurance companies and clears half a mil on 4 days a week. Didn't think it was possible, but it is.

But the fact remains, if you aren't willing to take a risk, you will top out at real quick as an associate working 5 days a week.

Keep in mind that a LOT of people have zero business knowledge or would fall flat in their face opening up their practice.

I know if I was to open up a private practice it might close in 30 seconds due to me literally having no business skills. Self learning can only get me so far haha

 

[KnuxNole]

Honestly, it's a balance, between income and happiness.

For me, happiness is key because I don't want work to consume my life. If that was the case I would quit in heartbeat. I could easily die tomorrow or next month. I want to at least have a career that I enjoy and feel productive and also have time for family/friends and enjoy my time on this earth.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Happiness is an overrated and childish thing to live for. The happiness treadmill is far more treacherous than the hedonistic one, for happiness is much more difficult to come by

Contentment. I think being content is more important than happiness. Cant think of a thing I need or want. Family is good , health is good. If you are content, happiness comes from all four corners! Dont talk to me about toys, got em all

 

[Merely]

The money doesn't make you happier study was eventually disproved. More money does make you happier but there are diminishing returns because you need substantially more for increased quality of life. 280k after having 140k makes you about as happy as going from 35k to 70k, for instance

I don’t believe this is correct. Can you provide evidence showing this? Last I checked the data showed past approx 100k makes very little difference in terms of happiness.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

"Whoever said money can't solve your problems, must not have had enough money to solve em'" - Ariana Grande

 

[getdown]

"Whoever said money can't solve your problems, must not have had enough money to solve em'" - Ariana Grande

Ahh life lessons from a person who couldn't bother to make sure her tattoo meant what she wanted it to mean.

Guess money can't buy everything (class and good judgement).

 

[321931]

I don’t believe this is correct. Can you provide evidence showing this? Last I checked the data showed past approx 100k makes very little difference in terms of happiness.

As an aside, I didn't fine more happiness going from when I doubled'-tripled my income. Crazy right? I just found more "stuff" to buy but in the end, it didn't make me more happy. What made me more happy in the end, was actually taking more time off and spending it with family. I might make less, but spending time with friends/family and traveling made me more happy.

 

[Merely]

As an aside, I didn't fine more happiness going from when I doubled'-tripled my income. Crazy right? I just found more "stuff" to buy but in the end, it didn't make me more happy. What made me more happy in the end, was actually taking more time off and spending it with family. I might make less, but spending time with friends/family and traveling made me more happy.

This is born out by the data that’s why I was confused by the other poster.

 

[nimbus]

What you’re describing is a study that found “satisfaction” is higher the more money you have. I think that makes sense too. Are medical students going to Harvard more satisfied with life vs UCLA? Quite possibly. Are they as a group, happier? I doubt that. It’s just when someone asks you how satisfied are you with your life you take stock of it.

Bad example. There are many people who choose UCLA over Harvard.

 

[Psai]

As an aside, I didn't fine more happiness going from when I doubled'-tripled my income. Crazy right? I just found more "stuff" to buy but in the end, it didn't make me more happy. What made me more happy in the end, was actually taking more time off and spending it with family. I might make less, but spending time with friends/family and traveling made me more happy.

And getting that paper is what facilitated the spending time with people and travelling amirite