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American Board of pain Medicine vs Anesthesia Pain certification???

Discussion in 'Pain Medicine' started by gasman059, 01.13.09.

  1. gasman059

    gasman059

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    Just wondering if many of u guys and gals out there that had a choice between exams made which choice and why.

    I'm a BC anesthesiologist with a pain fellowship and will must likely drop my calls to take a pain position.

    Will be sitting for the boards sooner than later and wanted some feedback in terms of study materials and review books. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    Thx for your time!
  2. PMR 4 MSK

    PMR 4 MSK Large Member SDN Advisor

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    ABPMed is not recognized by most states. The paper the certificate is printed on + $5 will get you a double mocha latte.
  3. Doctodd

    Doctodd

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    i have both and the ABPM is just for show...no substance as was mentioned. For review.....i say Dannemiller in Chicago in August. Very fast paced review....and i mean FAST REVIEW. They go too fast to learn anything so you better already know it.

    T
  4. Dr. Ice

    Dr. Ice Attending

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    so...is the ABPM exam even worth taking...or is it just a scam that holds no water anywhere??

    this is all assuming that I cant sit for the REAL pain boards...
  5. algosdoc

    algosdoc algosdoc

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    The ABPM exam is an alternate pathway that was designed to fill a need when anesthesiology overtly discriminated against anyone that wanted a pain fellowship or to take the special qualifications in pain medicine exam. Anesthesiology continues to exert the lions share of control of resident selection and training in pain fellowships, probably now much more than only a few years ago when there were competing neurology and PMR programs.
    The ABPM exam is still valid for thousands, and is equal to the ABMS pain certification in California and Florida via state regulations. The ABPM did not pursue this equivalency in other states since most do not recognize any governmental difference in the two anyway. ABPM has pursued certification as a full fledged ABMS board for many years but lacked the medical center/training programs for a full residency that would make this possible. However, they continue to pursue certification that will culminate in ABMS full fledged board certification using other means. The exam may soon become more necessary if the legislation introduced by Rockefeller of WV becomes law that would require training on a national basis in opiate prescribing. As a leftover from the Bush administration the law regarding opiates passed in 2007 mandated among other things, that the physician receive training in each narcotic prescribed. A coalition of pain organizations has sought to roll this requirement into a unified training program since it appears it may be mandated as a condition of DEA certificate registration. So, don't give up your ABPM and you should obtain MOC 10 year recert if you haven't done so.
  6. Hilly

    Hilly

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    Wow you seem really knowledgeable. I just posted a knew thread. I will quote it here if you could pls reply.


    [​IMG] ABPM Exam and the ABMS and Insurance Reimbursement
    I am an b/c internist s/p ABA/ACGME pain fellowship. Unfortunately, due to some personal stuff, I did not complete the entire year so I am not eligible for ABPN sub-specialty pain certification that I could have taken if I would have completed the fellowship.
    But, I have been accepted to sit for the ABPM boards.
    It seems that third party payers won't reimburse for epidurals etc if you don't have ABMS certification???
    I know Florida/Calif/Texas, ABPM is considered ABMS equilavent but how about NY/NJ?
    Can one legally advertise as a Pain Specialist in other states if certified by the ABPM?
    And is there a way to get the insurance companies to reimburse?
    Thanks!
  7. whoknows542

    whoknows542

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    ABPMed is no longer accepted in Florida, a new state law was passed. The states may not recognize a difference between the two but insurance companies have begun demanding board certification in pain medicine for pain procedures. Without it (whatever your state accepts) you will be sol in the near future. Read the new proposed Florida state regs if you would like to be scared. Keep ABPMed if that is all you have, it is better than nothing.

  8. dc2md

    dc2md

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    Do you have a link to a document stating this?
  9. bedrock

    bedrock Member

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    Florida could use more oversight of their cash only pill mills, but I don't see this proposed law actually happening.
    Suddenly all radiologists in the entire state won't get paid for pain procedures? Other physicians who've been doing pain procedures for a decade but didn't take the pain boards won't get paid for pain procedures? I doubt it.
  10. drpainfree

    drpainfree

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    It's correct to assume that in the near future, if there's one way to deny a payment, it will happen.
  11. onewithpain

    onewithpain

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    When I started here I was told that those insurance companies that would require a credential wanted AAPManagement. I had to be in practice for 18 months before I could take the test and everybody paid during that time. Easy test, but it sounds like I should apply for ABPM.
  12. algosdoc

    algosdoc algosdoc

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    It is extremely unlikely most insurers will require pain certification by the ABMS in order to get paid for pain procedures. NASS has a series of interventional training courses for surgeons primarily to do interventional pain procedures. None of these will ever be certified by the ABMS in pain, yet will continue to get paid.
    At this time however, given the choice of the two major exams ABPMedicine and ABMS Certification, I would take the latter, as lowly as it is. The ABPManagement is a little 2 hour test taken by physical therapists, nurses, naturopaths, psychologists, dentists, or virtually anyone with an interest in pain. CRNAs are using this as demonstration of their capabilities in interventional pain and are presenting this certification to hospitals and surgery centers.
  13. mid|ine

    mid|ine Interventional Spine

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    Reason enough NOT to take the exam. Don't give them your money.
  14. PinchandBurn

    PinchandBurn

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  15. dalox812

    dalox812 Junior Member

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    Originally Posted by algosdoc View Post
    The ABPManagement is a little 2 hour test taken by physical therapists, nurses, naturopaths, psychologists, dentists, or virtually anyone with an interest in pain. CRNAs are using this as demonstration of their capabilities in interventional pain and are presenting this certification to hospitals and surgery centers.


    I am taking the ABPM boards this april and I do think it is a good idea to get a board certification if you are practicing pain. There are requirements in taking the boards and you have to be a physician to take it. Whoever wrote above should get their facts straight that physical therapists, dentists, the guy working at mcdonalds could sit for the boards should get their facts straight. Also, if you do medical legal work involving spine care, this certification can boost your credentials. I do believe this certification can help your marketing as most physicians do not even know the difference between an ABPM pain physician for an ABMS pain physician. Do you think an internist or an orthopaedist says to himself "wait..before I refer my patient to this pain physician, is he ABMS board certified or ABPM board certified??"
  16. doctorlarry

    doctorlarry Member

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    What is everyone's opinion about adding ABIPP board certification for those already appropriately board certified? Many have done this but I'm unclear the benefit, if any...
  17. Jcm800

    Jcm800

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    You can be a FIPP! a Focking Idiot Pain Practitioner...:laugh:
  18. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve www.stevenlobel.com Lifetime Donor

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    Oops. You are new at this.

    Big diference between Am Board of Pain Medicine and Am Board of Pain Management.

    Neither are the ABMS board via ABA or ABPMR.
    ABPmanag is quackery and sham.
    ABPMed is a legitimate but not recognized board. It can make you feel better, but in many states cannot be used for advertising as not ABMS recognized.
  19. PMR 4 MSK

    PMR 4 MSK Large Member SDN Advisor

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    Are you talking ABPManagement or ABPMedicine? Huge difference. But neither are recognized by ABMS. Neither require fellowship or advanced training.

    In many states (but not mine), you cannot use them to advertise that you are "board certified in pain management/medicine." You can only advertise board-certification in ABMS-recognized specialties.

    I do think an internist or orthopod will want to refer to the guy with the best training. Educating them as to what the letters mean can make a huge difference.

    We have chiropractors and naturopaths in town who are certified by ABPMan, and advertise themselves as "Board Certified Pain Management Phsyicians." Some are even in the "Physician" section of the yellow pages. I guess they should be allowed to do injections, implants, etc. :rolleyes:
  20. Algiatrist

    Algiatrist

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    Agree that ABPManagment is a useless board certification. $200 and your a pain specialist. Good one fellas. Not on my mom.

    However, the ABPMedicine is the board exam that is available from the American Academy of Pain Medicine and it is the only one that hundreds of us non-ABMS fellowship trained folks have.

    Furthermore, I realize that ABMS accredited fellowships are the gold standard, but there is a HUGE variability in quality of training at these so-called ABMS fellowships. Some of them are still teaching blind cervical epidurals for god's sake!!

    Show me outcome data or lawsuit data to show that patients get better results when treated by an ABMS fellowship trained doc rather than a non-accredited fellowship Pain specialist. Prove to me that my training is inferior because it is not ABMS-approved.

    Look, my background is Internal Medicine. I'm boarded in it as well as Occ med and Sports med. My two attempts (two years applying) at the ABMS fellowships were unsuccessful, so I pursued non-accredited training with some pain guy named
    Steve Lobel. It's been awesome training. I don't think I would have received a third of the training at an accredited fellowship that I've done with Dr. Lobel.

    Now that I'm finishing up, I want something to show that I have expertise in Pain Medicine. The ABMS is all I've got. I could sit for the ABIPP, but seriously, I don't want to give Lax any more money. ASIPP dues are enough!

    Sorry for the diatribe, but I felt the need to speak up for the well-trained, non-ABMS fellowship guys out there.:thumbup:
  21. Jcm800

    Jcm800

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    Sorry for the diatribe, but I felt the need to speak up for the well-trained, non-ABMS fellowship guys out there.:thumbup:[/QUOTE]

    Never seen it... hehe just kidding :smuggrin:
  22. PinchandBurn

    PinchandBurn

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  23. Ducttape

    Ducttape Lifetime Donor

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    There is always the concern of a "nontrained"/noncertified individual vs. someone who has is certified. I am not aware of any data that a certified physician carries any change in risk.

    I have first hand experience in this matter, as i had to leave my primary specialty because of this.

    On the other hand, i can see the point of having some standardization. Seeing all these stories of "providers" who are injecting cement into butts, or give propofol for insomnia, remind me that there are providers who may or may not be doctors and clearly are not qualified to perform medical care.
  24. PinchandBurn

    PinchandBurn

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    See this is my concern as well. With out some sort of standards, it's a slippery slope.

    There are guys out there that do "Pain Mgt" without a fellowship at all. Is there data to state that they are inferior to non-ABMS certified physicians? Does that really mean anything? Just because there isn't 'data' to prove one way or another on something like this, I think a little common sense can go a long way.

    I think there needs to be some standardization because otherwise everyone with a needle and some depomedrol and local anesthtic will consider themselves qualified providers---including radiology techs, FPs, NPs, PAs, etc.
  25. PMR 4 MSK

    PMR 4 MSK Large Member SDN Advisor

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    "Back in the day" there were no fellowships. Only half the guys doing full time pain in my town are fellowship-trained.
  26. DOneuropain

    DOneuropain

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    I'm somewhat new to these different board certifications (ABPMed and ABMS). Im sure this has come up before, but hopefully, with your knowledge, I can make forward progress.

    In spite of the fact that I am engaged in a high volume, well run, ACGME accredited Interventional Pain Management fellowship, I may not be eligible to sit for the Anesthesia Pain Boards. I realize this may be an important issue moving forward.

    The American Board of Psych and Neuro (ABPN) is the only board (to my knowledge) that does not recognize the DO internship. I'm currently under the impression that the American Board of Pain Medicine will not let me sit for the exam unless I'm boarded through the ABPN.

    I'm currently working on this. At the commencement of my internship i had the choice of marking on a form whether I'd be pursing ACGME vs AOA training and I chose AOA. (Poor foresight)

    I am currently engaged in discussion with my internship director, and the institutions higher authorities, to see if there is some way to rectify the issue from their end. This is not resolved.

    My neuro residency (ACGME accredited) program director, as well as the neurology department chairman, have done what they could to try to get the ABPN to change their policy (referencing my performance on the standardized neuro in-service exam (RITE), and my additional training in aerospace medicine via the Navy), but they did not budge.

    As it stands, I will be boarded through the American Osteopathic Board of Psych and Neuro (again, as far as I know, this will not allow me to sit for the Anesthesia pain boards, ABPM) with a Certificate of Additional Qualification in Pain Management (via the American Osteopathic Board of PMR)

    I'd appreciate your thoughts on this, and if this is a deal breaker, then I'd be more apt to push full steam to get the internship issue squared away. This may, unfortunately, require that I repeat an internship.

    Thanks for your help!
  27. sweetalkr

    sweetalkr

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    I could probably do very well at placing an interstim for irritable bowel syndrome, but only urology is reimbursed to protect their specialty. similarly, i am sure with my basic surgical skills, i could learn to do a simple mole removal or inject botox for wrinkles. however, i am not a board certified dermatologist or urologist

    similarly, to be a board certified pain medicine physician by the ABMS, you have to go to an accredited fellowship. by bypassing this, you are saying that the establishment of the ABMS and everything it stands for is negligible, further empowering nurses, mid-levels, and quacks to become "board certified" whatevers.

    yes i have worked with plenty of "board certified docs" who don't know how to treat headaches, implant a SCS, microdose, do splanchnic nerve blocks, and sure there should probably be a test similar to FIPP in our country (a successful block on a cadaver in each major region of the body, randomly chosen), however it is what we got and what we have to support. so no offense to the well trained guys that are not accredited by a fellowship but you ARE NOT BOARD CERTIFIED PAIN MEDICINE. get that straight. no matter how you twist it, you are not. keep lying to yourself, keep lying to your patients, i don't care if you get better outcomes, but this is the game and we have to play along with it. join the club correctly, don't go any back door ways. we are protecting our specialty since the ASA didn't care to protect if for anesthesiology, now as a group we have to protect ourselves

    look no further than what cardiology did to protect their echocardiograms from CV anesthesiologists, or what NASS just did to protect themselves from MILD procedures.
  28. PMR 4 MSK

    PMR 4 MSK Large Member SDN Advisor

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    Most any doctor can sit for ABPMed exam. You do not need a fellowship. It is not ABMS recognized.

    The ABMS only recognizes subspecialty pain board certification, and primary board certification is required (such as anesthesia, PM&R, neuro, or psych).

    I have no idea how it works for DOs, unfortunately.
  29. Gauss

    Gauss Damnit Jim!

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    If you can rectify both board certifications with one internship, I'd advise you to do it. It'll be easy to get one and this will siginificantly improve your future job choices, salary, etc.
  30. SSdoc33

    SSdoc33

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    you'd advise going BACK to do another internship? are you out of your @#!@#!%#^%#$ mind?

    just practice, man. you'll be fine.
  31. DOneuropain

    DOneuropain

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    Thank you very much to all those to have replied. 3 prospective employers have already turned me down as a result of this board certification issue.

    I am curious, it's been said that almost any doctor can sit for the american board of pain medicine, but the issue is to sit for this board you first need to be certified by a member board of the american board of medical specialties. Which the AOBPN is not... and my internship does not allow me to sit for the american board of psychiatry and neurology.

    As I see it I have 2 choices: repeat an internship ( shoot me) or go out and practice as a general neurologist ( wasting my fellowship... shoot me)
  32. Ligament

    Ligament Interventional Pain Management SDN Advisor

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    Hire a lawyer to appeal to the ABPN. You will not get this done without a lawyer it seems. There has to be a lawsuit/discrimination case in here somewhere.

    This is a real shame, sorry to hear of your situation!
  33. facets

    facets

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    u have a sad situation, appeal to the board. There really is only one, the rest are shams
  34. Jcm800

    Jcm800

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    Third, set up shop as a pain doc. You are one, or will be. You did the fellowship...
  35. Jcm800

    Jcm800

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    What r u talking abou? DONEUROPAIN is doing a fellowship...geesh...



  36. drf

    drf New Member

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    My sense from the post is the poster had finished a Neuro fellowship and is currently in an ACGME pain fellowship. The problem is the the DO internship, from 4 years ago. So boarded neurologist, finished ACGME pain fellowship. But can't sit for the exam.
  37. PinchandBurn

    PinchandBurn

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    hey sweetalkr, what did NASS do to protect themselves from MILD? I did 3 last week. Something new happen???? curious.

    http://www.beckersorthopedicandspin...coding-compliance-managements-cristina-bentin

    Are you talking about this, where it's got to be a "T" code?
  38. Ducttape

    Ducttape Lifetime Donor

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    What does your program director for your pain fellowship have to say?

    Cant he apply to get an exemption since you did an ACGME approved fellowship?

    could you also set up shop as a Neurologist with a specialty in headache management? do some neuro, do some pain procedures (ie head/neck injections)...
  39. onewithpain

    onewithpain

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    It also depends on your prospective employers. If it is a hospital with a current pain program then they may use the difference in training as an excuse to exclude you. I heard from a PM&R who did his fellowship at Stanford who was excluded from a hospital in N Cal by the local anesthetists. Anybody can get territorial. Consider going independent or aligning yourself with a group. Orthos of course can be a great referral source. If PCPs have their own group outside of the hospital then they can be a great source after you educate them as to what you can do. You may never get into some of the larger hospitals but you can still be very busy and successful.
  40. sweetalkr

    sweetalkr

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    my reply was for the posters who were arguing that fellowships and certification through the ABMS is not necessary

    for the fellow that did a neurology residency and fellowship but had a DO internship, I have heard of this happening multiple times. Someone told me you can actually just do some Emergency medicine months to make up for it? Honestly I dont remember what it was, but someone in my anesthesiology residency program had an issue with it but he was an intern and i was graduating. i vaguely remember someone mentioning doing 3 extra months of ER medicine his intern year to finish this. look into ER and getting a non-DO internship completed. maybe that helps?

    My personal advice is to spend the year doing an internship. I am sure some program is more than willing to have a STAFF neurologist and FELLOWSHIP TRAINED pain doctor be a part of the program. you can probably arrange moonlighting as a staff neurologist or even as a pain doc and supplement ur income. your hours would suck, however you have spent 10 or 11 years doing this, so 1 extra year to make it completely "legitimate" and not have issues to me is a no brainer
  41. DOneuropain

    DOneuropain

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    thanks again for the replies. I agree, especially in a competitive arena such as pain medicine, being completely board certified by the appropriate authorities is important. Repeating an internship, however, is sickening.

    I am still appealing to the ABPM, as my case is unique in that I have not only my internship (done at an ACGME institution (AOA and NOT ACGME accredited)), but also 7 months training in aerospace medicine via the Navy Flight Surgeon Program (oh yea, did I mention I spent 4yrs active duty as a navy flight surgeon... my point is... I'm old).

    I am also appealing to the ACGME in an attempt to get them to credit some of my internship rotations.

    I have not told my Pain Fellowship Program director as of yet, but this will be next. I'm really not sure how he could help. I used my neurology program director and neurology department chair to forward the appeal to the ABPN (who obviously denied it) and now the ABPM (awaiting their decision).

    I wrote the AOA to see if there may be some agreement in place with the ABPM. Surprisingly, Dr. Levine (AOA president) did reply to me, however unfavorably.

    Im told, even if the ACGME does credit some of my rotations, it will be difficult to find an internshp that will accept me (especially at this late date) for an abbreviated work year. are there any academic docs out there who might know of a program that is A) light work load/call, and/or B) willing to accept someone into a shortened contract arrangement?
  42. facets

    facets

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    I feel really bad for you. You did everything right, you did a fellowship. When there are docs with no pain training doing blind epidurals with 240 mg of depo, your situation is a travesty. It would be awful if you had to repeat an internship. I really believe that the ASA is the only real certification, the rest are frauds, but you should qualify. How about some national organizations, a petition signed by us? Surely something should be done.
  43. specepic

    specepic

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    I'm trying to figure out how you were qualified to do an accredited pain fellowship but now cannot sit for boards, that is crazy (not blaming you but the system).

    Is this an accurate summary:
    - DO internship (not dually accredited with ACGME)
    - ACGME Neuro
    - ACGME Pain fellowship

    I do not know all the details, but from what I understand there are in place or upcoming new rules from the ACGME regarding those who have/have not done AOA internships vs. ACGME

    It sounds like you have the option of AOA board cert? What exactly do they offer is the way of pain cert? The reason I bring this back up is that AOA board cert should be quite legal/recog'd by hosp's and insur companies. Drusso might know more about this?

    Good luck to you

    I have to say that even at my small hosp and community the board cert thing comes up now and then. Now, I don't know if they know the diff b/t ABMS and other cert's. I think if you have a fellowship cert and then do one of the other non-ABMS cert's you will have decent job options.

    Otherwise, I would look at a dual cert AOA/ACGME internship, find someone looking for more bodies
  44. Jcm800

    Jcm800

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    Yes I agree. Completely bull ****e.vcan u find some shotty community hospital with a FP residency and do a few months? Gonna be hard to find one without call. Although nowadays call is easy...



    QUOTE=facets;12062647]I feel really bad for you. You did everything right, you did a fellowship. When there are docs with no pain training doing blind epidurals with 240 mg of depo, your situation is a travesty. It would be awful if you had to repeat an internship. I really believe that the ASA is the only real certification, the rest are frauds, but you should qualify. How about some national organizations, a petition signed by us? Surely something should be done.[/QUOTE]
  45. Ligament

    Ligament Interventional Pain Management SDN Advisor

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    This is really bullcrap. I'm sorry you are getting shafted like this. I for one am happy to sign a petition for you to get ABPM certified. I'm sure others on here are as well as facets already offered. You did more than your share of work.
  46. lobelsteve

    lobelsteve www.stevenlobel.com Lifetime Donor

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    +1
  47. emd123

    emd123

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    Do whatever you can to get the ABMS Pain subspecialty certification. There may be some shortcut work-around, however, if you have to do an MD internship and repeat your intern year, yes that would suck immensely and haunt you for a year. Not getting the formal certification, however, could and likely would haunt you for an entire career. With all the issues we have in this specialty, I am certain that legitimate certification will, and should, become more and more essential as the years go by.

    Being from a primary specialty other than gas/PMR/neuro/psych, I personally, made damn sure that if I did an accredited fellowship I could sit for the same ABMS Pain subspecialty exam as anyone else, and I can. I checked once, twice, 3, 4, 5 times to confirm this and reconfirmed this even after starting fellowship. It was that important to me that if I did this, that I would do it RIGHT.

    There's no way I would risk coming this far, after landing a very solid accredited fellowship against all reasonable odds, and risk being considered less than 100% legit. Some jealous meat-head can try to make that claim, but can't and won't be able to erase my ACGME fellowship certificate and ABMS Pain subspecialty exam certification once I've got it. In addition to being highly advertiseable, being "ACGME fellowship trained" and "board certified" puts you in a very small, exclusive group of specialists (a few thousand out of 300,000,000 people in the USA).

    Pieces of paper mean way more than they should, but once you've got them, they put a huge amount of lift beneath your wings.
  48. Taus

    Taus . Moderator

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    Just a random though- but maybe one of the other sponsoring boards (ie ASA, AAPM&R) would be more willing to help you out than your Neurology board?
  49. DOneuropain

    DOneuropain

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    You gave an accurate summary.

    AOA does not have board certification for pain mgt. They are currently working with the ABPM to establish an exam, but in terms of the legal implications of this, they are at least five years out (my guess).

    This forum has been very helpful. I will post my progress. I'm guessing I'll have a definitive answer within the next two weeks.
  50. Ligament

    Ligament Interventional Pain Management SDN Advisor

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    This is a great idea. I have heard of other sponsoring boards doing things like this in exceptional cases.

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