"American Ebola Patients Have Been Released From Atlanta Hospital"

[EliottReid]

SO EXCITED!!!!

http://www.iflscience.com/health-an...-patients-have-been-released-atlanta-hospital

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[allantois]

To anyone who actually watched it on the news, what do you guys think of his many religious references.

 

[NickNaylor]

To anyone who actually watched it on the news, what do you guys think of his many religious references.

They were doing their work in the context of a religious mission, so...

 

[EliottReid]

To anyone who actually watched it on the news, what do you guys think of his many religious references.

I am an atheist, but he is not and he went there as a religious, if he feels better saying that God saved him, then why not, just hopefully he thanked the healthcare professionals and all the people who actually were involved.

 

[Holmwood]

I'm just happy he's alive and there's hope for all of us to survive this epidemic. : D

 

[deleted407021]

To anyone who actually watched it on the news, what do you guys think of his many religious references.

Eh. If he's happy and that's what he believes, then whatever. However, Dr. Brantly's statement, "Please, continue to pray for Liberia and the people of West Africa", is ridiculous. Prayer has never helped anyone or anything. It even conflicts with the the frail assumption that god's will is always carried through.

I'm glad that they're cleared and good to get back to their families!

 

[Gauss44]

Interesting, I read somewhere that Ebola survives in semen for about 45 days after a man recovers. I guess ZMapp improved upon that too!

Edit: "Men who have recovered from the disease can still transmit the virus through their semen for up to 7 weeks after recovery from illness." Published by WHO prior to ZMapp. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs103/en/

 

[James401]

Eh. If he's happy and that's what he believes, then whatever. However, Dr. Brantly's statement, "Please, continue to pray for Liberia and the people of West Africa", is ridiculous. Prayer has never helped anyone or anything. It even conflicts with the the frail assumption that god's will is always carried through.

I'm glad that they're cleared and good to get back to their families!

How can you say that prayer has never helped anyone or anything. Is this based on substantial proof, personal experience?

 

[CrimsonKing]

How can you say that prayer has never helped anyone or anything. Is this based on substantial proof, personal experience?

And so it begins

 

[anv62792]

I'm agnostic, but if it makes people feel better to believe in a higher power, who am I to judge? Life can be hard, sometimes it helps to feel like you're living for a bigger purpose and I can understand that. He's a doctor so he obviously understands this outcome isn't all because of god, but with a 60-65% fatality rate I don't blame him for thanking god. I also don't think asking for prayers for areas battling the epidemic is bad. I wasn't raised in a religious house, but my extended family is religious. I used to feel uncomfortable when they would tell me they're praying for me, but what harm is praying going to do? It's not like he's saying "pull all help from these areas--the only solution is prayer!"

 

[phunky]

.

 

[deleted407021]

How can you say that prayer has never helped anyone or anything. Is this based on substantial proof, personal experience?

If by "proof", you mean scientific proof, then no, because no such thing exists. If you mean something more along the lines of a logical proof, then yes, within the framework of a Christian/Jewish/Islamic beleif system, prayer is useless:

Therefor, prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'm certain that prayer, like meditation, can certainly have it benefits to the individual, however, it is ridiculous to believe that beseeching an imaginary friend, or hoping really, really hard for something will actually cause something to happen. Additionally, the belief in prayer requires a belief in a god, for who's existence there is absolutely no evidence. In such an extraordinary claim as the existence of a god, a lack of evidence is evidence against that existence. Therefor, if no gods exist to pray to, then prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'd also argue that an appeal to the Christian god - as that's the god I'm assuming the doctor believes in - would be the most preposterous thing of all, given this god's history as far as humanitarian efforts are concerned. Killing of hundreds of millions of humans and non-humans in a massive flood, simply because they angered him. Favoring one race over another. Commanding that favored race to kill millions, smash infants against the ground, take thousands of virgin girls for themselves and wrest land from native inhabitants. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of people who will be tortured for all eternity simply because they exercised free will in he wrong direction. And its final plan was to have an innocent man brutally murdered to atone for everyone's wrong doings; an immoral concept if ever there had been one. Even if I believed in god, I'd be more inclined to beseech Kin Jong Un or one of the leaders of ISIS to do some good for the people of the earth than to ask a god who's evil out shadows all that of all of history's tyrants combined.

As a final note, the STEP Project in 2006 found that prayer had no effect on outcomes of surgery. The same findings were published in a similar study by mayo clinic, regarding coronary artery procedures and prayer.

As far as we know, it seems prayer had never helped anyone or anything.

EDIT: I typed this on a phone, so please excuse any spelling errors.

 

[EliottReid]

If by "proof", you mean scientific proof, then no, because no such thing exists. If you mean something more along the lines of a logical proof, then yes, within the framework of a Christian/Jewish/Islamic beleif system, prayer is useless:

Therefor, prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'm certain that prayer, like meditation, can certainly have it benefits to the individual, however, it is ridiculous to believe that beseeching an imaginary friend, or hoping really, really hard for something will actually cause something to happen. Additionally, the belief in prayer requires a belief in a god, for who's existence there is absolutely no evidence. In such an extraordinary claim as the existence of a god, a lack of evidence is evidence against that existence. Therefor, if no gods exist to pray to, then prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'd also argue that an appeal to the Christian god - as that's the god I'm assuming the doctor believes in - would be the most preposterous thing of all, given this god's history as far as humanitarian efforts are concerned. Killing of hundreds of millions of humans and non-humans in a massive flood, simply because they angered him. Favoring one race over another. Commanding that favored race to kill millions, smash infants against the ground, take thousands of virgin girls for themselves and wrest land from native inhabitants. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of people who will be tortured for all eternity simply because they exercised free will in he wrong direction. And its final plan was to have an innocent man brutally murdered to atone for everyone's wrong doings; an immoral concept if ever there had been one. Even if I believed in god, I'd be more inclined to beseech Kin Jong Un or one of the leaders of ISIS to do some good for the people of the earth than to ask a god who's evil out shadows all that of all of history's tyrants combined.

As a final note, the STEP Project in 2006 found that prayer had no effect on outcomes of surgery. The same findings were published in a similar study by mayo clinic, regarding coronary artery procedures and prayer.

As far as we know, it seems prayer had never helped anyone or anything.

EDIT: I typed this on a phone, so please excuse any spelling errors.

Even if I agree, I do not think that it is wise to talk about religions and beliefs here. The debate never had and might never have an ending.


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[AspiringERMD]

I don't care if people pray or thank their god(s) of choice for "saving their lives," but I do find it deeply offensive when they do so INSTEAD of thanking their healthcare team, especially when their god(s) never get a shred of blame when a medical outcome is bad. They have no problem assigning 100% of the blame to the doctors in those cases.

 

[type12]

Even if I agree, I do not think that it is wise to talk about religions and beliefs here. The debate never had and might never have an ending.


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Agreed, let sleeping dogs lie, especially if they have explosives.

 

[allantois]

I don't care if people pray or thank their god(s) of choice for "saving their lives," but I do find it deeply offensive when they do so INSTEAD of thanking their healthcare team, especially when their god(s) never get a shred of blame when a medical outcome is bad. They have no problem assigning 100% of the blame to the doctors in those cases.

When I was watching the news they had his doctors standing by him and I thought that I would feel if not offended then at least uncomfortable if I was one of them.

 

[AspiringERMD]

When I was watching the news they had his doctors standing by him and I thought that I would feel if not offended then at least uncomfortable if I was one of them.

Indeed. I mean, in a professional setting, obviously I would NEVER call a patient out on it, but it is definitely rude regardless of your beliefs.

 

[joonage]

A missionary doctor is essentially cured of a terrible disease and it turns into a religious debate. Oh, SDN~

 

[DermViser]

When I was watching the news they had his doctors standing by him and I thought that I would feel if not offended then at least uncomfortable if I was one of them.

Indeed. I mean, in a professional setting, obviously I would NEVER call a patient out on it, but it is definitely rude regardless of your beliefs.

You guys obviously didn't listen:

 

[allantois]

You guys obviously didn't listen:

Maybe if the doctor was Hindu and thanked Shiva and Krishna for his cure, there would be a different reaction to his appearance on national TV.

 

[DermViser]

Maybe if the doctor was Hindu and thanked Shiva and Krishna for his cure, there would be a different reaction to his appearance on national TV.

Try listening again in context. Great poke at Hindus in this country - many of whom are doctors by the way:

 

[deleted407021]

Maybe if the doctor was Hindu and thanked Shiva and Krishna for his cure, there would be a different reaction to his appearance on national TV.

Out culture is very christian centric.

I made up that word, but you get the idea.

 

[RussianFrolic]

Try listening again in context. Great poke at Hindus in this country - many of whom are doctors by the way:

Why is it a poke at Hindu's in this country? There are plenty of other religions in the USA besides Christianity.

Personally, I felt very isolated from his speech because, as he is a doctor, I thought that he would deeply address how Emory handled the situation and how dire the circumstances are rather than going on and on about God and prayers.

 

[DermViser]

Why is it a poke at Hindu's in this country? There are plenty of other religions in the USA besides Christianity.

Personally, I felt very isolated from his speech because, as he is a doctor, I thought that he would deeply address how Emory handled the situation and how dire the circumstances are rather than going on and on about God and prayers.

He thanked them. Watch it again.

 

[RussianFrolic]

He thanked them. Watch it again.

Would you mind mentioning the minute/second when he said that because I would rather not hear his whole religious spiel again. Nothing against Christians, just not my favorite way to spend 4 minutes.

 

[DermViser]

Would you mind mentioning the minute/second when he said that because I would rather not hear his whole religious spiel again. Nothing against Christians, just not my favorite way to spend 4 minutes.

start at 2:44

 

[allantois]

start at 2:44

He mentions Emory staff at 2:55; before then he thanks his missionary organization. And Emory is only mentioned in the context of God and how they thru him were able to save him. This video is not actually the full speech and it also doesn't show the medical staff that's standing to his right.

If he was a simple survivor of Ebola, I probably wouldn't care about what he attributed to his cure but as he is a doctor I would have expected more than that speech.

People need to be donating money to organizations that are doing research on diseases such as ALS and Ebola and not simply believe that with their prayers all diseases will go away. It could have been a great opportunity for him to praise the medical and science community as they don't often get attention on the news.

 

[allantois]

Double post.

 

[coffeelover10]

If by "proof", you mean scientific proof, then no, because no such thing exists. If you mean something more along the lines of a logical proof, then yes, within the framework of a Christian/Jewish/Islamic beleif system, prayer is useless:

Therefor, prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'm certain that prayer, like meditation, can certainly have it benefits to the individual, however, it is ridiculous to believe that beseeching an imaginary friend, or hoping really, really hard for something will actually cause something to happen. Additionally, the belief in prayer requires a belief in a god, for who's existence there is absolutely no evidence. In such an extraordinary claim as the existence of a god, a lack of evidence is evidence against that existence. Therefor, if no gods exist to pray to, then prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'd also argue that an appeal to the Christian god - as that's the god I'm assuming the doctor believes in - would be the most preposterous thing of all, given this god's history as far as humanitarian efforts are concerned. Killing of hundreds of millions of humans and non-humans in a massive flood, simply because they angered him. Favoring one race over another. Commanding that favored race to kill millions, smash infants against the ground, take thousands of virgin girls for themselves and wrest land from native inhabitants. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of people who will be tortured for all eternity simply because they exercised free will in he wrong direction. And its final plan was to have an innocent man brutally murdered to atone for everyone's wrong doings; an immoral concept if ever there had been one. Even if I believed in god, I'd be more inclined to beseech Kin Jong Un or one of the leaders of ISIS to do some good for the people of the earth than to ask a god who's evil out shadows all that of all of history's tyrants combined.

As a final note, the STEP Project in 2006 found that prayer had no effect on outcomes of surgery. The same findings were published in a similar study by mayo clinic, regarding coronary artery procedures and prayer.

As far as we know, it seems prayer had never helped anyone or anything.

EDIT: I typed this on a phone, so please excuse any spelling errors.

If someone prays, and it gets answered, wouldn't that still be considered part of the divine plan? You'll never know if the prayer was a necessary requirement or not.

 

[SoonToBeDrG]

If by "proof", you mean scientific proof, then no, because no such thing exists. If you mean something more along the lines of a logical proof, then yes, within the framework of a Christian/Jewish/Islamic beleif system, prayer is useless:

Therefor, prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'm certain that prayer, like meditation, can certainly have it benefits to the individual, however, it is ridiculous to believe that beseeching an imaginary friend, or hoping really, really hard for something will actually cause something to happen. Additionally, the belief in prayer requires a belief in a god, for who's existence there is absolutely no evidence. In such an extraordinary claim as the existence of a god, a lack of evidence is evidence against that existence. Therefor, if no gods exist to pray to, then prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'd also argue that an appeal to the Christian god - as that's the god I'm assuming the doctor believes in - would be the most preposterous thing of all, given this god's history as far as humanitarian efforts are concerned. Killing of hundreds of millions of humans and non-humans in a massive flood, simply because they angered him. Favoring one race over another. Commanding that favored race to kill millions, smash infants against the ground, take thousands of virgin girls for themselves and wrest land from native inhabitants. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of people who will be tortured for all eternity simply because they exercised free will in he wrong direction. And its final plan was to have an innocent man brutally murdered to atone for everyone's wrong doings; an immoral concept if ever there had been one. Even if I believed in god, I'd be more inclined to beseech Kin Jong Un or one of the leaders of ISIS to do some good for the people of the earth than to ask a god who's evil out shadows all that of all of history's tyrants combined.

As a final note, the STEP Project in 2006 found that prayer had no effect on outcomes of surgery. The same findings were published in a similar study by mayo clinic, regarding coronary artery procedures and prayer.

As far as we know, it seems prayer had never helped anyone or anything.

EDIT: I typed this on a phone, so please excuse any spelling errors.

For your own good, I HIGHLY recommend you keep beliefs like these out of your interviews. A student that bashes religion is not going to be welcomed into any medical school. You need to be accepting of other people's viewpoints, regardless of how absurd you feel they are.

 

[RussianFrolic]

start at 2:44

Still don't hear a lick about Hindu's?

 

[DermViser]

Still don't hear a lick about Hindu's?

I never said he did. That was in response to the commenter above.

 

[RussianFrolic]

Oh.... we were totally mis

I never said he did. That was in response to the commenter above.

communicating then lol.


Edit: Apparently I'm awesome at inserting quotes.

 

[Holmwood]

1) "Through the care of the Samaritan's Purse and SIM missionary team in Liberia, the use of an experimental drug, and the expertise and resources of the health care team at Emory University Hospital, God saved my life."

Though he thanked the people at Emory, he used his experience as a testament to his religious beliefs. This should not be treated as any different from Latin American communities that blame susto spirits for certain ailments, and attribute recovery as a spiritual intervention. Medical professionals these days try to be more culturally accepting, so this sort of thing should be waved off.

2) If gratitude was the primary reason you entered the profession, then you would be disappointed constantly. That's part of the reason why people end up following the money, right?

3) Prayers do not "accomplish" things because they were inherently not meant to. Prayers are by definition an act of talking to God. It has therapeutic value as clinical studies have shown, and also works to strengthen the spiritual bonds of an individual (which clinical studies cannot show). They are not tokens for a gumball machine, or a ticket to a lottery. You can not guarantee an outcome simply by prayer, because God ain't your slave honey.

And to be fair, I am religious. I understand that there are those of you who are agnostic, atheist, or prescribe to some other faith. I love you all regardless. : )

 

[deleted407021]

For your own good, I HIGHLY recommend you keep beliefs like these out of your interviews. A student that bashes religion is not going to be welcomed into any medical school. You need to be accepting of other people's viewpoints, regardless of how absurd you feel they are.

That is not - and shouldn't be considered - bashing.

If someone prays, and it gets answered, wouldn't that still be considered part of the divine plan? You'll never know if the prayer was a necessary requirement or not.

I'm not certain you understand the point of the argument.

 

[The Buff OP]

To anyone who actually watched it on the news, what do you guys think of his many religious references.

You just had to start this, huh?

 

[James401]

If by "proof", you mean scientific proof, then no, because no such thing exists. If you mean something more along the lines of a logical proof, then yes, within the framework of a Christian/Jewish/Islamic beleif system, prayer is useless:

Therefor, prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'm certain that prayer, like meditation, can certainly have it benefits to the individual, however, it is ridiculous to believe that beseeching an imaginary friend, or hoping really, really hard for something will actually cause something to happen. Additionally, the belief in prayer requires a belief in a god, for who's existence there is absolutely no evidence. In such an extraordinary claim as the existence of a god, a lack of evidence is evidence against that existence. Therefor, if no gods exist to pray to, then prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

I'd also argue that an appeal to the Christian god - as that's the god I'm assuming the doctor believes in - would be the most preposterous thing of all, given this god's history as far as humanitarian efforts are concerned. Killing of hundreds of millions of humans and non-humans in a massive flood, simply because they angered him. Favoring one race over another. Commanding that favored race to kill millions, smash infants against the ground, take thousands of virgin girls for themselves and wrest land from native inhabitants. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of people who will be tortured for all eternity simply because they exercised free will in he wrong direction. And its final plan was to have an innocent man brutally murdered to atone for everyone's wrong doings; an immoral concept if ever there had been one. Even if I believed in god, I'd be more inclined to beseech Kin Jong Un or one of the leaders of ISIS to do some good for the people of the earth than to ask a god who's evil out shadows all that of all of history's tyrants combined.

As a final note, the STEP Project in 2006 found that prayer had no effect on outcomes of surgery. The same findings were published in a similar study by mayo clinic, regarding coronary artery procedures and prayer.

As far as we know, it seems prayer had never helped anyone or anything.

EDIT: I typed this on a phone, so please excuse any spelling errors.

Prayer is simply showing and telling God that you are trusting his divine plan. Its showing God that you trust him and go to him when you are in need. However i could sit here and tell you all about how i disagree with you, but arguing on a forum will never go anywhere. The only thing i do feel the need to say is that Dr. Brantly in no way by thanking God for curing him is taking away what the staff at the hospital did to save him. I believe and know for a fact he believes that God used the people in the hospital to cure him of the disease. If you would ever like to talk about prayer however please pm me i would love to talk to you

 

[coffeelover10]

If you mean something more along the lines of a logical proof, then yes, within the framework of a Christian/Jewish/Islamic beleif system, prayer is useless:

Therefor, prayer has never helped anyone or anything.

You claim you are taking a logical perspective in determining prayer's usefulness and see it as being inconsequential in God's "Divine Plan". I'm merely refuting this claim from a logical perspective as well in general. I'm not talking about the Ebola case specifically.

 

[F1rstGen]

To anyone who actually watched it on the news, what do you guys think of his many religious references.

More important question here is, what does everyone think of the treatment used at Emory and how many shares of Mapp Biopharmaceutical did you buy?

 

[deleted407021]

Prayer is simply showing and telling God that you are trusting his divine plan. Its showing God that you trust him and go to him when you are in need. However i could sit here and tell you all about how i disagree with you, but arguing on a forum will never go anywhere. The only thing i do feel the need to say is that Dr. Brantly in no way by thanking God for curing him is taking away what the staff at the hospital did to save him. I believe and know for a fact he believes that God used the people in the hospital to cure him of the disease. If you would ever like to talk about prayer however please pm me i would love to talk to you

You mean the god for who's existence there is absolutely no evidence?

I happen to know what prayer is because I did it in a baptist church for 20 years. It comes in all shapes and sizes, but the one theme maintained across the board is a magical communication with someone who in absolutely all likelihood, doesn't exist. Anyone who believed these things in their own would be called insane, but as a collective, the opposite is true.


Anyway, I agree that debating isn't fruitful, in this venue. Thanks for the short but amiable discussion. And for the kind invite.

 

[EliottReid]

Ok, when are you guys going to start talking about the treatment and something more important than who prays what and why?

PLEASE, stop with the religions, it never stops and I'm talking as a person who comes from a country where 200,000 died in 6 years because of the same problem and I am just sick of hearing arguments like this.

Talking about beliefs only create problems, and it will always be the case until all people start just keeping them for themselves and not care about what others do.

The debate should focus on something more productive that people didn't try for thousand of years without success and with too much damages.

I am sorry if you feel like I am talking in a harsh way, it is not the case just I wanna hear more about Ebola and the treatment and less about other non important stuff.


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[deleted407021]

Ok, when are you guys going to start talking about the treatment and something more important than who prays what and why?

PLEASE, stop with the religions, it never stops and I'm talking as a person who comes from a country where 200,000 died in 6 years because of the same problem and I am just sick of hearing arguments like this.

Talking about beliefs only create problems, and it will always be the case until all people start just keeping them for themselves and not care about what others do.

The debate should focus on something more productive that people didn't try for thousand of years without success and with too much damages.

I am sorry if you feel like I am talking in a harsh way, it is not the case just I wanna hear more about Ebola and the treatment and less about other non important stuff.


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You aren't talking in a harsh way, you are talking in a ridiculous way. People who rely upon superstition and try to take others with them should be confronted. To suggest that people shouldn't talk about religions because it causes problems is completely backwards. I'm sorry your home country experienced what it did. I'm an American and my country has experienced a civil war because people were more willing to cut the throat of their brother than to work things out. We must discuss our differences, not bottle them up or resort to savagery.

And if you think religious discussion is historically ineffective, you should read up on the Protestant reform. Religion is extremely important, even if it isn't the topic of the thread.

 

[EliottReid]

Guys, we might have the treatment for Ebola, isn't it more interesting than who prays what and why?

You aren't talking in a harsh way, you are talking in a ridiculous way. People who rely upon superstition and try to take others with them should be confronted. To suggest that people shouldn't talk about religions because it causes problems is completely backwards. I'm sorry your home country experienced what it did. I'm an American and my country has experienced a civil war because people were more willing to cut the throat of their brother than to work things out. We must discuss our differences, not bottle them up or resort to savagery.

And if you think religious discussion is historically ineffective, you should read up on the Protestant reform. Religion is extremely important, even if it isn't the topic of the thread.

Unless you think that a debate that says : God exists and God doesn't exist is a constructive debate, then I disagree. The only important debate about religions is about secularism and how important is it to be respectful and let anyone think whatever the heck they want without trying to convince others that God exist or not. Or the Protestant are righter than the catholic or sunnit is better than chiit because it would never change never ever, we will still have atheists and the multiple religions within the same religions, that's not a debat, that's just a circle that never ends.

 

[allantois]

Guys, we might have the treatment for Ebola, isn't it more interesting than who prays what and why?

Unless you think that a debate that says : God exists and God doesn't exist is a constructive debate, then I disagree. The only important debate about religions is about secularism and how important is it to be respectful and let anyone think whatever the heck they want without trying to convince others that God exist or not. Or the Protestant are righter than the catholic or sunnit is better than chiit because it would never change never ever, we will still have atheists and the multiple religions within the same religions, that's not a debat, that's just a circle that never ends.

You have a very simplistic view of the world and what historical events even lead to explosion of science that now allows us to find cures for things like Ebola virus.

 

[EliottReid]

You have a very simplistic view of the world and what historical events even lead to explosion of science that now allows us to find cures for things like Ebola virus.

That would be nice to explain what you mean instead of saying that.
The history shows people who made the world the way it is that let us find cures like for Ebola, people like Voltaire did not spend their times arguing on whether one belief is better than others but in fighting for the freedom of expression Freedom to have their beliefs and of cult and the equality between all of them by separating the state from the church and make reason the foundation of a state.

 

[allantois]

That would be nice to explain what you mean instead of saying that.
The history shows people who made the world the way it is that let us find cures like for Ebola, people like Voltaire did not spend their times arguing on whether one belief is better than others but in fighting for the freedom of expression Freedom to have their beliefs and of cult and the equality between all of them by separating the state from the church and make reason the foundation of a state.

Very nice knowledge of history 101.

There were originally no scientists prior to ~ 16th century. People that did what is now known as science include many Greek philosophers such as Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle and many others who spent the majority of their time defending their beliefs and views of the world and each one of them had views different from others. It all went on until the Church took over people's thoughts by prohibiting free thinking from 1-2 AD to ~ 16 AD when a few people dared to challenge the religious truths and many of them as a result had to pay with their lives (Giordano Bruno) or were otherwise silenced (Galileo) for what they professed.

There is absolutely no "never ending circle" of human thought as it has indeed evolved in a flow from Ancient Greeks, to Romans which then silenced free thinking for some 16 centuries while the achievements of Ancient Greeks were largely preserved by Arabs and through them, the western world was able to gain back all those achievements by the means of crusades.

 

[EliottReid]

Very nice knowledge of history 101.

There were originally no scientists prior to ~ 16th century. People that did what is now known as science include many Greek philosophers such as Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle and many others who spent the majority of their time defending their beliefs and views of the world and each one of them had views different from others. It all went on until the Church took over people's thoughts by prohibiting free thinking from 1-2 AD to ~ 16 AD when a few people dared to challenge the religious truths and many of them as a result had to pay with their lives (Giordano Bruno) or otherwise silenced (Galileo) for what they professed.

There is absolutely no "never ending circle" of human thought as it has indeed evolved in a flow from Ancient Greeks, to Romans which then silenced free thinking for some 16 centuries while the achievements of Ancient Greeks were largely preserved by Arabs and through them, the western world was able to gain back all those achievements by the means of crusades.

That's exactly what I am saying.
There is a difference between arguing with someone who says that religion should be on top of everything (like in my country) and arguing with someone to tell him or her that god doesn't exist or god exist.
The debate should be around free thinking and not what exist and what doesn't.
The people you mentioned fought for free thinking and knowledge and critical thinking against people who didn't want that. They didn't fight to say praying God doesn't work.


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[EliottReid]

Very nice knowledge of history 101.

There is absolutely no "never ending circle" of human thought as it has indeed evolved in a flow from Ancient Greeks, to Romans which then silenced free thinking for some 16 centuries while the achievements of Ancient Greeks were largely preserved by Arabs and through them, the western world was able to gain back all those achievements by the means of crusades.

When you say Arabs do you mean Muslims?Because the Islamic civilization was Islamic and not Arab (majority of known scientists during that time were Persian, Berbers and Arabs and I am not sure about the Turkish, even Kurds might have some)


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[allantois]

When you say Arabs do you mean Muslims?Because the Islamic civilization was Islamic and not Arab (majority of known scientists during that time were Persian, Berbers and Arabs and I am not sure about the Turkish, even Kurds might have some)


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Yeah I mean Muslims. Sorry my main interest in history doesn't go beyond the western world haha. It's a shame that Islamic world became so intolerant to new ideas and free thinking as it hasn't been that way when it first originated. When there was a dead age of new ideas in Europe, there were a lot of achievements made in Islamic world in astronomy and medicine as well as other disciplines.

 

[Mad Jack]

Ok, when are you guys going to start talking about the treatment and something more important than who prays what and why?

PLEASE, stop with the religions, it never stops and I'm talking as a person who comes from a country where 200,000 died in 6 years because of the same problem and I am just sick of hearing arguments like this.

Talking about beliefs only create problems, and it will always be the case until all people start just keeping them for themselves and not care about what others do.

The debate should focus on something more productive that people didn't try for thousand of years without success and with too much damages.

I am sorry if you feel like I am talking in a harsh way, it is not the case just I wanna hear more about Ebola and the treatment and less about other non important stuff.


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In all fairness, it's a lack of open dialogue between those that hold differing ideologies that leads to distrust and hatred, not a surplus of it.