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How do you guys feel about the topic?
I think there needs to be some measure initiated to prevent this occurrence.
I think there needs to be some measure initiated to prevent this occurrence.
How do you guys feel about the topic?
I think there needs to be some measure initiated to prevent this occurrence.
[...]
Bi-spectral index monitoring does not guarantee lack of awareness during anesthesia. Period.
-copro
Did you see the question/answer in the 2007 ASA CME booklet? It showed a dolphin with TWO Bis strips across its forehead attached to two separate but identical BIS monitors. Guess what they displayed? Two completely different BIS readings at least 10 apart from each other.
BIS is huge marketing tool but in no way replaces common sense and vigilance. In fact, the most important thing a provider can do to avoid awareness is CHECK the end tidal gas reading on his/her monitor! You need to make certain that a MINIMUM of 1/2 MAC VAPOR agent is being expired at all times especially at the start of the case. Thus, OVERDRIVE the vaporizer and monitor the exhaled vapor prior to cutting back on the gas. Now, obviously this strategy is best reserved for your healthy ASA 1 or 2 patient and NOT the 80 year old ASA 4 who won't remember anything (and probably couldn't pre-op either) for days.
Blade
Why would you not want to know how your drugs may be affecting the target organ, the brain?
AWAKE the movie highlights the need for Goldilocks anesthesia, says developer of bispectral index (BIS) monitored propofol ketamine sedation, now trademarked as minimally invasive anesthesia(MIA)®.
Those interested in the body of this press release are welcome to view it gratis @www.cosmeticsurgeryanesthesia.com on Wednesday November 28, 2007.
Warm regards from sunny Southern California,
aghast1
The "brain" - specifically one hemisphere of the frontal lobe, which is what BIS analyzes - is the target organ? Is it even the primary target? You might need a little more CME if you still believe this is the case... We all recognize you've been out of residency a long time... Your knowledge gaps are starting to show...
-copro
I'll take one hemisphere over HR & BP trends any day, dude.thumbdown
aghast1
"Dude", you don't even know the primary site of action of the drugs you're delivering.
-copro
let's be frank einstein, tell the girls and boys where the primary site of action is
even at my age and advanced condition i am willing to learn something from such a bright light as yourself
dont know if i can contain my anticipation at the enlightenment to come, but i will try
have a wonderful day
aghast1
ps bis is a cortical monitor
bis tracks my pts propofol levels
i will bet on the cerebral cortex'
can 3,000+ scientific papers all be wrong
"Real World" Awareness is 1:15,000 and NOT 0.2%. TIVA anesthetics are indeed popular for outpatient/plastic surgey cases but in no way does that mean BIS is "essential" to reduce awareness. Instead, the use of LMA and/or limiting muscle relaxants ensures that the horror story like the movie "AWAKE" never occurs.
In my opinion, and it is just that, awareness under anesthesia is likely due to provider error or faulty equipment the vast majority of the time. I work in a practice where more than 300,000 anesthetics have been given during my career.
Outside of MAC Cases I know of only one awareness case and I believe the provider had an empty vaporizer!
BIS is available at my Institution and is used for about 5% of cases. In particular, all Cardiac cases get a BIS. As for "goldilocks" anesthesia that is more theory than fact.
BIS is a monitoring "tool" with limitations. Like the movie JAWS the movie AWAKE is more about fear than reality. Don't buy into the fear; instead look at the facts 1 in 15,000!
Blade
When one spends some of their clinical time in a specific field, we refer to them as sub-specialist, like cardiac, neuro, ortho, ob, etc.Ok,
I actually think your technique of Propofol + Ketamine is elegant and if BIS monitoring adds to it's elegance so be it.
Now, can we now move on?
You are a senior anesthesiologist with 30 years experience and I am sure all of us can benefit from your contribution to this forum on other subjects.
In my experience doing about 50 Breast augmentations with a pure propofol technique and every available anti-emetic combined with tiny doses of narcotic (like 100 micrograms of Fentany) the post-operative Nausea/Vomiting was due to the OXYCODONE or DILAUDID pill prescribed by the plastic surgeon.
In other words, despite a practically perfect anesthetic young female patients are still prone to nausea long after the anesthetic. Since the surgeon continued to prescribe the pain killers for his patients I switched to Sevoflurane and found little difference at 24 hours (all avail. ant-emetics given). The surgeon agreed the techniques were equal in terms of outcome (N/V) and room turn-over (less than 3 minutes).
Until the "big boys" do a large study comparing techniques, outcomes, etc. in a randomized study I will continue to use "stinky" vapor when appropriate.
In addition, the definition of MAC as defined by the ASA is different than yours. Since you get paid "cash $$$$" and don't need to worry about third party payers the wording means little to you. However, for some of us MAC and TIVA are important distinctions for CMS.
Finally, I have been 'put under' several times without BIS and so have my family members. I wouldn't hesitate to use "stinky" vapor on my Mother when appropriate. POCD has not been proven to be altered by any anesthetic technique including a pure propofol one. That said, I do avoid vapor on my borderline/ mild dementia patients when possibe (no good evidence to suppory my decision).
This thread was about "awareness" and NOT your MIA technique. Perhaps, you wouldn't mind going MIA on this thread for a while? After all, you have explained your technique ad-nauseum.
Blade
Interesting thread. Im always in favor of avoiding opioids when possible but its not always possible especially in an academic environment. I also prefer using the ketamine and propofol separately for a MAC especially in a prolonged procedure. Alternatively I may use prop/ket mix up to 50-100mg then just straight prop after. Of course as you've all mentioned its contingent on the surgeon using adequate local. The clonidine is a nice touch and something I'll have to try in the future, although it is an off label use of clonidine (I will admit a lot of stuff we do is off label though). I'm not sure if I would agree with using a BIS monitor on all of my MAC cases. It just seems to be an extra added expense that may not add much to the outcome. As previously stated a low BIS score may have and association with an increased morbidity/mortality rate, but I dont believe this was done comparing TIVA to inhaled. Now in a system where the patients pay up front in cash (i.e. office plastics), I'm sure the expense of the BIS might be justified but in an already overburdened medical system it may be difficult. I'm also not sure how the surgeons would be able to completely avoid post op narcotics. NSAIDS and local will only get you so far.
The name of this thread is 'Anesthesia Awareness' and not Anesthesia for Cosmetic Surgery.
As for 100 micrograms of Fentanyl causing Nausea 24 hours later where is the logic in that belief? Fenanyl is not in the system that far out to be the cause of Nausea.
My cosmetic experience is much greater than "50" as I was listing the number we evaluated for the Sevo technique vs. Propofol.
There is much more to postoperative Nausea than just the anesthesia technique for Breast Augmentation. That is my point. It takes the right surgeon with avoidance of post-operative narcotics. One person's individual experience with "claims" that are unsubstantiated by peer reviewed literature is suspect at best.
Now, I will stick to the topic on this thread "anesthesia awareness" and hope the moderators will help do the same.
Blade