Anesthesiology After Residency

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To be fair, this "Generation Me" are guys like me who are very content with their gigs and not the guys who have been painting the doom and gloom for a decade. A lot of guys don't want to work for an AMC. We'll see how that continues. I pray it doesn't happen to my practice.

'Doom and gloom'? If you mean loss of practice autonomy and a reduction in income means doom and gloom then it's true. But, if you view the glass as "half full" because there are plenty of jobs available and $300K income with 6 weeks of vacation is great, then the field of Anesthesiology is the correct one for you.

I don't base the reality of today's market on the fact that Anesthesiology made me wealthy over the past ten years and likely will continue to do so for several more years to come. Instead, I see the new paradigm shift of Northstar, Sheridan, Mednax/American Anesthesiology, Team Health, US Anesthesia Partners, etc as the reality that a newly minted Anesthesiologist faces circa 2016.

If you are in a nice protected spot of the country like the Midwest or West then the "hoard" hasn't gotten to you.....yet. But, it's just a matter of time before the "hoard" figures out how to entice those holdout CEOs into giving them the anesthesia contract. I truly hope that the hoard never enters your area and swallows up all the groups.

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Selling Your Practice: Five Tips for When Suitors Come Calling
by Paul E. Kacik
It is no secret within the anesthesiology community that the level of merger and acquisition activity has been increasing over the past few years. Although historically most anesthesiology practices across the country have been smaller groups tied to a few local hospitals, recently a handful of larger companies has emerged looking to penetrate the market on a national basis.

Deep-pocketed firms like TeamHealth, Mednax, EmCare (part of Emergency Medical Services Corporation) and Sheridan Healthcare have been buying anesthesia groups across the country as they look to grow their national footprints. Team Health has acquired Florida-based Anesthetix Management, LLC, as well as Colorado-based Anesthesia Service, Inc., both serving as platforms for the company to ultimately expand nationally.

In 2007, Mednax acquired Virginia-based Fairfax Anesthesiology Associates for an amount that some Wall Street analysts estimate was between nine and 10 times the company’s cash flow. In addition, an increasing number of private equity investment groups have backed smaller anesthesia companies with a view to growing them through acquisition. Moelis & Company, a prominent East Coast private equity group, recently acquired New York-based North American Partners in Anesthesia, and in 2009, The Beekman Group purchased Chicago-based Continental Anesthesia. Although purchase price multiples for both of these transactions were undisclosed, our experience has been that anesthesia practices have been on average trading for between six and eight times cash flow.

Despite the apparent frenzy of activity in the anesthesiology sector, most companies making acquisitions have very well thought-out criteria in determining what practices they choose to pursue. Here are some of the key factors that any anesthesiology group should be aware of if it is considering selling or has been approached by a potential acquirer.

Facilities Served

Does the practice serve hospitals, ambulatory surgery centers (ASCs) or some combination of the two? In most cases, the type of customer will strongly determine who will be interested in purchasing the practice.

Practices that serve hospitals typically are viewed more favorably than those that solely serve ASCs. Hospital relationships tend to be longer-term and are more “sticky” than ASCs, meaning hospitals are less likely to switch providers than ASCs are. Also, for the larger diversified acquirers, buying into anesthesiology practices with hospital customers enables them to cross-sell their other service lines into the newly acquired hospital relationship. TeamHealth, for example, has a strong core business providing emergency department staffing and administration. Having entered the anesthesia sector within the past few years, the company is keen on acquiring practices with strong hospital relationships.

Of course, the majority of active acquirers will certainly not overlook practices with long-standing histories of working with high-quality ASCs.

Geography

To a certain extent, the geography served by the practice plays a significant role in determining which acquirer might have an interest, as well as how attractive the practice will be to the acquirer. Where the practice is located, whether it treats a mostly urban or rural patient base or whether it is a local or regional player drive the decision-making process of a potential buyer. No one particular geographic profile is more attractive than another. However, being located in an area with a growing, relatively affluent patient population certainly helps in maximizing one’s options, both in terms of increasing the number of potential interested buyers as well as increasing the price a seller could command.

In addition, being located in a city or state that is contiguous to the existing operations of one or more potential buyers makes the acquisition a compelling way for the buyer to expand in its immediate neighborhood. Practices located in the southeastern United States, for example, are likely to be of strong interest to companies like Mednax or Sheridan, as they have existing footprints in this region.

Revenue Concentration

Concentration is one of the most important factors that buyers will want to assess in determining whether to acquire an anesthesiology practice. If the practice is deriving the majority of its patient revenue from one or two facilities, the risk for that revenue diminishing or going away altogether is significantly higher in the eyes of a prospective buyer than if that revenue were evenly spread across several facilities. My firm has watched more than one potential transaction fail because the practice to be purchased derived the large majority of its patient revenue from a single hospital.

What’s more, if management fees (sometimes also referred to as subsidies) paid directly by a hospital or surgery center make up a significant share of a practice’s revenue, a buyer will want to have an understanding of how likely those management fees are to remain in place going forward. Each of these factors will play a role in determining how much a buyer will pay to acquire the practice.

Payer and Procedure Mix

Broadly speaking, the mix of payers and procedures drives the profitability of an anesthesiology practice. How much of the patient revenue comes from private insurers? How much from Medicare and Medicaid? Are the procedures being performed typically longer, more complex and more highly reimbursed, or are they shorter and less complex?

Also, with regard to private insurance, how strong are the practice’s relations with its payers? Is the practice in or out of network with its top payers? As an in-network provider, does the practice have a history of relatively consistent reimbursement rates? Those anesthesiology practices that can demonstrate an evenly balanced payer mix, a procedure mix weighted toward more complex, higher-margin reimbursement codes and a consistent history of attractive payer contracts will be best positioned to attract higher valuations from interested buyers.

Ownership Structure

The makeup of an anesthesiology practice’s ownership is something that all potential acquirers consider. A practice owned by one or two partners employing, for example, between 50 and 75 clinicians usually will be seen by the buyer as an easier transaction than one that is owned by a large number of physician shareholders. The transaction itself is simpler because the buyer needs to negotiate with only a handful of decision makers. However, although negotiating with fewer shareholders may be simpler, a buyer may still have concerns over paying what could be a sizeable purchase price to a small number of doctors who still may be needed to run the business going forward. For anesthesiology groups with a large number of physician owners, potential acquirers will want to know that, although there is consensus among the shareholders, a few key leaders in the group have been empowered to communicate and negotiate on everyone’s behalf.

Physician groups choosing to sell their practices to a larger buyer often find the experience very rewarding, both financially and operationally. However, sellers do need to understand that although buyers typically strive to minimize change to the practice after closing, they will now be employees of what will likely be a more structured company. The new employer will almost certainly be more metrics driven and cost conscious. Staff layoffs are not a common occurrence in the transactions that we have seen, but buyers will undoubtedly have a focus on maximizing their return on investment. Overall, the feedback that we hear from physician groups that we have worked with is that the experience of selling their practice turned out to be very positive for all involved.

—Paul E. Kacik

Mr. Kacik is managing director of the health care industry group at McGladrey Capital Markets LLC, an investment banking firm based in Costa Mesa, Calif.
 
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Nationally, anesthesia practices are selling to corporate buyers or merging with other groups at an unprecedented pace, as physicians fear that the Affordable Care Act (ACA) will bring sharply reduced compensation. The Wall Street Journal reported on November 21 that Blue Shield of California has sent contract amendments to many physicians, asking them to accept fees up to 30% lower for insurance exchange patients than the usual commercial rates. In New York, the WSJ said, UnitedHealth Group Inc. has set rates for plans in the new health-law marketplaces close to what the state Medicaid program pays for the same services, and less than half of what physicians receive for treating people covered by employer-sponsored insurance.

Signing on with a corporate buyer has the potential to bring several years of relative security for the anesthesia practice, depending on the terms of the purchase agreement. The sellers hope that corporations will be able to negotiate better contracts than private anesthesia groups can when they act alone. Groups may become part of single-specialty corporations such as Somnia Anesthesia Services or North American Partners in Anesthesia (NAPA), or they may be acquired by multi-specialty corporations such as Sheridan, TeamHealth Holdings Inc., or Mednax Inc.

Not all corporate deals are friendly, of course. EmCare and Somnia have taken over the anesthesia contracts at a number of California hospitals — with or without the blessing of the anesthesia practices. At Kaweah Delta Medical Center in Visalia, hospital administrators put out the anesthesia contract for competitive bidding in 2011, and the all-MD anesthesia group that had held the contract for years lost out to Somnia. A new anesthesiology chief came on board, and a care team model with nurse anesthetists took over.

Merger is another possibility for anesthesia practices. In May 2013, a new anesthesiology corporation, Resolute Anesthesia and Pain Solutions LLC, was formed by the merger of Broad Anesthesia Associates and Mid-Florida Anesthesia Associates in a recapitalization led by the Goldman Sachs Private Capital Investing Group. Resolute currently serves over 25 locations in Florida, Missouri, and Illinois, according to a company press release, and “expects to grow by partnering with leading quality anesthesia groups nationally.”

So what does the future look like for anesthesia practices that haven’t yet begun courtship with a corporate buyer or merger partner? The answer is more work for less money, as the demand for anesthesia services increases and payments continue to dwindle. In California at least, the MD-only group may soon be an endangered species. It’s hard to see how that practice model will continue to be financially viable. It would make sense for all-MD groups to consider adopting the anesthesia care team model, including lower-cost practitioners, sooner rather than later, or risk having one forced upon them by hospitals that are tired of paying stipends for coverage of trauma, obstetrics, and other services which are money-losers for the anesthesia group.

The problem, of course, for many all-physician anesthesia practices is that they don’t want to hire nurse anesthetists. The militant anti-physician stance of the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists (AANA) is understandably distasteful to many of us. The AANA doesn’t believe physician supervision or collaboration is necessary or even helpful. Anesthesiologist assistants, the only other mid-level alternative, can’t get a license to practice in California or many other states yet, though efforts are underway to make that happen. Until then, there’s no choice other than nurse anesthetists if a group wants to add lower-cost practitioners.

For young physicians going into anesthesia practice, who aren’t partners yet, the only sensible advice is to beware of changes to come. If your group is MD-only, and hasn’t adopted a financially sustainable anesthesia care team model, it is ripe for losing its contract to a tough competitor such as Somnia or EmCare. Even if the group has been stable for decades, don’t think that your elders, the senior partners, won’t sell the practice out from under you to a corporate buyer or a lucrative merger if the price is right.

Only time will tell whether or not the physicians of MAC are happy with their decision to sell the practice, and how many of the non-shareholders may decide to leave and seek work with a different group where partnership is still an option. For now, though, it’s a safe bet that MAC won’t be the only California anesthesia practice to look for a good deal while one may still be available. Which group will be next?

Thanks to Stan Stead, MD, MBA for his clear explanations of how anesthesia practicesare valued for sale, and how deals are typically structured.

Karen S. Sibert is an associate professor of anesthesiology, Cedars-Sinai Medical Center. She blogs at A Penned Point.
 
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Blade, totally agree with you on what new grads should expect for the future. Although I don't think the west coast or midwest are entirely safe, especially the midwest with more crnas in place. West coast generally tends to more MD only practices and California state laws are very fickle in terms of paying 1099 vs W2 and side companies that own them.

Saying all that, new grads at least won't get screwed by private practices that promise them partnerships after 3-5 years. It not only happened to my sister (basically giving up roughly 1.3-1.5 million in income since she was taking less money) but others as well.

And you can move between jobs much easier these days. That's why AMCs are trying to strengthen their non compete clauses. Without non competes AMCs are screwing themselves if employee X moves to AMC Y across the street.

Right now Goldman Sachs (Resolute anesthesia) and Amsurg (sheridan) are involved in a huge tug of war for anesthesia peeps in northeast. Sheridan stealing contract from Goldman. Goldman demanding 4 million or else non of the "employees" can stay. It's going to be a mess

Sheridan will bleed money if they have to replace 100% of the anesthesia peeps. Goldman knows that. You can't replace an entire anesthesia department overnight, especially are high acuity medical centers. Same thing happened in california a few years ago.

Sure, they can use joe blow off the streets on their locums sheet, but mistakes are bound to happen. And if mistakes happen with "new" AMC managing the contract, surgeons will get pissed and move their work elsewhere.
 
Completed anesthesia and pain management practice acquisitions have increased at a five year compound annual growth rate of 55%. Haverford projects that 2015 is likely to bring 30 or more announcements of completed practice acquisitions.


http://www.haverfordhealthcare.com/...ology-Practice-Acquisitions-January-20151.pdf


Haverford Healthcare Advisors is a leading consultant to anesthesiologists in connection with the sale and valuation of their professional practices. We have successfully completed hundreds of advisory projects for physicians throughout the U.S. over the past 30 years. Haverford’s professionals can help you determine if your anesthesiology practice is a candidate for acquisition by a national firm.
 
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The facts are clear that a 4th year med student entering an Anesthesiology Residency will likely end up as an employee of an AMC, hospital or academic medical center. This is a huge paradigm shift over the past 5-7 years and represents a change to the practice of Anesthesiology.
 
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January 30, 2015 07:00 AM Eastern Standard Time
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--MEDNAX, Inc. (NYSE: MD), today announced the acquisition of MEMAC Associates, P.C., a private physician group practice based in Warren, Mich., and its related entity, Synergy Anesthesia, PLLC. At closing, 10 anesthesiologists, as well as 18 part-time anesthetists, became part of MEDNAX’s American Anesthesiology division, and will serve as one integrated practice.

“MEDNAX shares the same long-term strategy and goals as our practice, which includes emphasis on research, education and quality initiatives that benefit our patients through better outcomes and improved patient satisfaction”

MEMAC Associates was founded and incorporated in 1970. The practice provides services across a wide spectrum of subspecialty areas at St. John Macomb-Oakland Hospital, St. John Medical Center-Macomb Township ambulatory surgery center, and two Eastside Endoscopy Center locations. Synergy Anesthesia, a related entity, was established in 2013 to provide services at Synergy Spine & Orthopedic Surgery Center. The practice’s anesthesia services include general anesthesia, cardiac, neurosurgery (including spine), obstetric and acute pain management.

“MEDNAX shares the same long-term strategy and goals as our practice, which includes emphasis on research, education and quality initiatives that benefit our patients through better outcomes and improved patient satisfaction,” said Steven Rotter, M.D., who will serve as medical director for the practice. “As we all become impacted by healthcare reform, access to MEDNAX’s vast resources and back-office infrastructure will ensure that our mutual goals are met and that we can focus on providing exceptional care to our patients.”

MEDNAX’s American Anesthesiology division consists of more than 2,350 anesthesia providers, including more than 950 physicians and 1,400 anesthetists practicing in 13 states.

This was a cash transaction, and it is expected to be immediately accretive to earnings. No additional terms of the transaction were disclosed.
 
you can move between jobs much easier these days. That's why AMCs are trying to strengthen their non compete clauses. Without non competes AMCs are screwing themselves if employee X moves to AMC Y across the street.
This is scary. Imagine if we have to sign NCCs in order to get a job even with an AMC. I see little good for doctors under NCCs. It seems mainly beneficial to the AMC. And without other competitors in an area, we doctors may have no other choice but to sign an NCC if we want a job, thereby giving up our independence. Sigh, it'll be a dark day if NCCs are forced onto doctors. At least I can't see much benefit?
but mistakes are bound to happen. And if mistakes happen with "new" AMC managing the contract, surgeons will get pissed and move their work elsewhere.
By contrast, why don't AMCs try to force surgeons to sign NCCs? Looks like surgeons have a better deal here!
 
This is scary. Imagine if we have to sign NCCs in order to get a job even with an AMC. I see little good for doctors under NCCs. It seems mainly beneficial to the AMC. And without other competitors in an area, we doctors may have no other choice but to sign an NCC if we want a job, thereby giving up our independence. Sigh, it'll be a dark day if NCCs are forced onto doctors. At least I can't see much benefit?

By contrast, why don't AMCs try to force surgeons to sign NCCs? Looks like surgeons have a better deal here!

Many docs in virtually all specialties routinely sign non competes. Also all employment situations including partnerships and partnership tracks. They provide leverage to the employer. How much depends on how it is crafted. Assuming that it is enforceable.
 
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The facts are clear that a 4th year med student entering an Anesthesiology Residency will likely end up as an employee of an AMC, hospital or academic medical center. This is a huge paradigm shift over the past 5-7 years and represents a change to the practice of Anesthesiology.

Why is it so bad to work for a hospital or academic medical center? Just less money and less vacation? I don't think 300K and 6 weeks vacation is bad at all!
 
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Why is it so bad to work for a hospital or academic medical center? Just less money and less vacation? I don't think 300K and 6 weeks vacation is bad at all!

It's only bad if you are generating 600k in revenue and getting paid 300 of it.
 
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Why is it so bad to work for a hospital or academic medical center? Just less money and less vacation? I don't think 300K and 6 weeks vacation is bad at all!


When you see what is left after your paycheck the number will surprise you: SS tax, Medicare tax, Federal tax, state tax, 401K, Health care plans, etc all eat away at that $300K base pay. Sure, you will live decently on the remaining money but no better than most A/C contractors, Plumbers, Electricians, etc. Those guys all "hide" their money from taxation so their net is equal to that $300K gross. They report something like $60K on their taxes but really earn in excess of $200K.

I won't debate this argument (AGAIN) on SDN but you won't be living with Neurosurgeons or Orthopods who are earning 2.5 times what you do while working the same amount of hours.

Before you jump all over me remember what JPP said about picking your specialty?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-make-150k-when-450k-is-out-there.509725/
 
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Circa 2019 here is the breakdown of jobs for Anesthesiology:

Hospital based/Academic- 50%
Anesthesia Management Company- 25%
Private Practice 25%

So, for 25% of MS4s going into Anesthesiology life will be good for at least a few years; the other 75% will simply be like middle management at any large company.

For some middle management with job security is perfectly acceptable.
 
Circa 2019 here is the breakdown of jobs for Anesthesiology:

Hospital based/Academic- 50%
Anesthesia Management Company- 25%
Private Practice 25%

So, for 25% of MS4s going into Anesthesiology life will be good for at least a few years; the other 75% will simply be like middle management at any large company.

For some middle management with job security is perfectly acceptable.

What will it take to be among the fortunate 25%? Fellowship? Geographical ultra flexibility (welling to relocate to BFE)? Pedigree? Luck? Or all of the above?
 
When you see what is left after your paycheck the number will surprise you: SS tax, Medicare tax, Federal tax, state tax, 401K, Health care plans, etc all eat away at that $300K base pay. Sure, you will live decently on the remaining money but no better than most A/C contractors, Plumbers, Electricians, etc. Those guys all "hide" their money from taxation so their net is equal to that $300K gross. They report something like $60K on their taxes but really earn in excess of $200K.

I won't debate this argument (AGAIN) on SDN but you won't be living with Neurosurgeons or Orthopods who are earning 2.5 times what you do while working the same amount of hours.

Before you jump all over me remember what JPP said about picking your specialty?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/why-make-150k-when-450k-is-out-there.509725/

Blade, it depends on the W2 job. True a AMC "bad" W2 job you are going to be hit with more income taxes. Since many AMCs don't have access to alternative tax deferred retirement accounts (401a, 457b).

But my "effective" income taxes on my W2 state academic job last year was only 15% which is pretty good for a "W2". I was able to defer close to $70K of my money. Plus they had like an immediately vested 12% matching to the 401a. Also essentially got "free" healthcare which we all know is worth around $10K at least for a family of four for the year.

When I was self employed my "effective" income tax rate was around 13-15% usually.

Remember we as anesthesiologist generally have very little overhead. As self employed, you pay both ends of FICA/medicare "self employment taxes" up to $117K give or tax. Sure I could try to drive my income down to $50K as a self employed anesthesiologist. But many "business write offs" are complete waste of money. Most of us also pay accountants (that's another $1000-5000 a year). Plus I had my own 401K LLC account which cost money to run each year as well. There are a lot of expenses as a S corp. Technically you aren't supposed to write off all your health care premiums either (most people cheat). Because the IRS will start cracking down and what we are supposed to do is re add back the health care premiums onto our W2. So that $10K health care premiums deduction on the business side needs to get re -added back to the W2 you pay yourself and that becomes taxable.

http://www.sleeter.com/blog/2015/01/shareholder-health-insurance/

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small...ion-Compensation-and-Medical-Insurance-Issues

My friend brags about paying 8% effective income taxes. Yet he leases cars, he buys like $25K worth of TVs in one year. Seriously? If you are writing off stuff you don't really need, at the end of the day you are just getting a 33% business discount. That's all.

Love my crna friend who brags she pays herself $40K. So she avoids the full self employment taxes and most medicare taxes. But she spends like $40K a year in hotels alone rather than rent a place for 1/2 the price! Its just these idiotic write offs people do sometimes as self employed.

Now those with professional offices like my plastic surgeon buddy. He owed essentially $0 in federal taxes (he's in florida so no state income taxes). Of course main reason he owes $0 is cause he spent $125K each on those new fat freezing minimally invasive lip suction machines. And he purchased 2 of them this past year.

True orthopods make a lot. But many of them also have expensive lifestyle. Just human nature. I've known guys make close to 1 million. They just spend it like crazy. Most people just can't help themselves. Most doctors are horrible money managers. Just horrible.
 
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When you see what is left after your paycheck the number will surprise you: SS tax, Medicare tax, Federal tax, state tax, 401K, Health care plans, etc all eat away at that $300K base pay. Sure, you will live decently on the remaining money but no better than most A/C contractors, Plumbers, Electricians, etc. Those guys all "hide" their money from taxation so their net is equal to that $300K gross. They report something like $60K on their taxes but really earn in excess of $200K.

No offense but you are off your rocker if you think that the average plumber or electrician lives on par with the average anesthesiologist.;)

I have no doubt that many business owners take all kinds of shady deductions and hide income though.
 
No offense but you are off your rocker if you think that the average plumber or electrician lives on par with the average anesthesiologist.;)

I have no doubt that many business owners take all kinds of shady deductions and hide income though.


Not yet...the day is coming though. And I was referring to the OWNER of those companies.
 
Blade, it depends on the W2 job. True a AMC "bad" W2 job you are going to be hit with more income taxes. Since many AMCs don't have access to alternative tax deferred retirement accounts (401a, 457b).

But my "effective" income taxes on my W2 state academic job last year was only 15% which is pretty good for a "W2". I was able to defer close to $70K of my money. Plus they had like an immediately vested 12% matching to the 401a. Also essentially got "free" healthcare which we all know is worth around $10K at least for a family of four for the year.

When I was self employed my "effective" income tax rate was around 13-15% usually.

Remember we as anesthesiologist generally have very little overhead. As self employed, you pay both ends of FICA/medicare "self employment taxes" up to $117K give or tax. Sure I could try to drive my income down to $50K as a self employed anesthesiologist. But many "business write offs" are complete waste of money. Most of us also pay accountants (that's another $1000-5000 a year). Plus I had my own 401K LLC account which cost money to run each year as well. There are a lot of expenses as a S corp. Technically you aren't supposed to write off all your health care premiums either (most people cheat). Because the IRS will start cracking down and what we are supposed to do is re add back the health care premiums onto our W2. So that $10K health care premiums deduction on the business side needs to get re -added back to the W2 you pay yourself and that becomes taxable.

http://www.sleeter.com/blog/2015/01/shareholder-health-insurance/

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small...ion-Compensation-and-Medical-Insurance-Issues

My friend brags about paying 8% effective income taxes. Yet he leases cars, he buys like $25K worth of TVs in one year. Seriously? If you are writing off stuff you don't really need, at the end of the day you are just getting a 33% business discount. That's all.

Love my crna friend who brags she pays herself $40K. So she avoids the full self employment taxes and most medicare taxes. But she spends like $40K a year in hotels alone rather than rent a place for 1/2 the price! Its just these idiotic write offs people do sometimes as self employed.

Now those with professional offices like my plastic surgeon buddy. He owed essentially $0 in federal taxes (he's in florida so no state income taxes). Of course main reason he owes $0 is cause he spent $125K each on those new fat freezing minimally invasive lip suction machines. And he purchased 2 of them this past year.

True orthopods make a lot. But many of them also have expensive lifestyle. Just human nature. I've known guys make close to 1 million. They just spend it like crazy. Most people just can't help themselves. Most doctors are horrible money managers. Just horrible.

I can't disagree with a single thing in your post.
 
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I already saw an article where the hourly wage for a general internist was only like 50c more than a high school teacher per hour when you factor in student loans, late start on investment and reitrement, etc.
 
More than half of Illinois state educators retire at age 59 or younger and receive $2 million in benefits after their career ends, the institute estimates. Because of a guaranteed cost of living adjustment of 3 percent annually after 25 years in retirement, many of these individuals are earning more than double what they were making at the height of their career, the institute found


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...r-pensions-continue-as-illinois-fin/?page=all
 
I openly told my financial advisor that the day I make what a family practice doc makes for what I do is the day I default on all my student loans and skip town to live overseas. I told him it would be equivalent to indentured servitude and I wouldn't stand for it.

I think eventually a day will come when the educated professional class of this country isn't going to stand for this bull**** anymore. It will be France circa 1789 all over again.
 
I already saw an article where the hourly wage for a general internist was only like 50c more than a high school teacher per hour when you factor in student loans, late start on investment and reitrement, etc.
There have been a few of these articles. Several of their assumptions are faulty and that has a significant effect on the conclusions.
My teacher friend is 45 and she has an aging Honda, and a condo that her father gave her the down payment on, and she will never be able to afford to retire well because the sweetheart pensions of the old days of teaching are gone.
Doesn't sound like many physicians that I know.
Maybe she should move to Illinois.
 
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There have been a few of these articles. Several of their assumptions are faulty and that has a significant effect on the conclusions.
My teacher friend is 45 and she has an aging Honda, and a condo that her father gave her the down payment on, and she will never be able to afford to retire well because the sweetheart pensions of the old days of teaching are gone.
Doesn't sound like many physicians that I know.
Maybe she should move to Illinois.

Can you elaborate on the faulty assumptions please?
 
There have been a few of these articles. Several of their assumptions are faulty and that has a significant effect on the conclusions.
My teacher friend is 45 and she has an aging Honda, and a condo that her father gave her the down payment on, and she will never be able to afford to retire well because the sweetheart pensions of the old days of teaching are gone.
Doesn't sound like many physicians that I know.
Maybe she should move to Illinois.
It all depends on the state pension system.

It's no surprise someone mentioned Illinois and California have two of the most under funded pension systems in the USA. Why? Because they generally pay out 5-6 times more than what people put it.

It's a complicated equation. Someone like my mother in law who has a masters degree and who's been teaching 25 plus years barely is going to get much in Tennessee. She took about 10 years off raising a family.

But right next door across the state line 15-20 minutes away in Georgia. That same school teacher is going to have a very comfortable because Georgia is very generous with with their pension benefits including great health insurance. Think those grandfathered in the older systems were paying maybe 2-3% into the system and Georgia was matching at a 10% rate. It's a defined benefits plan as well. The other "gotcha" is you gotta stay a long time. 20 plus years or you lose that match. And can only collect them at age 60 or older.

Newer hires have to contribute close to 8% with a match of 10%.

So older generations got better deals than newer generations. Pensions systems that still exist have so many different levels of contribution requirements depending on date of hire. The older rank and file got better deals.
 
It's funny that the younger generation gets a bad rap when the older generation has ****ed them and this country. They underfunded social security and pension systems and transfer private practices to corporations, leave crumbling infrastructure, and an education system that produces more debt than education, and a national debt that is unjustifiable. The baby boomers take take take and let the world burn but millennials (which I am not) get a bad wrap. What a joke.
 
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The long and short of it was it used the best case possible for teachers and the worst case for physicians. The one I recall also included the pension plan for the teacher in their retirement income and ignored the interest and dividends earned by the physician's significant retirement accounts during their retirement. Joe the teacher will get 60k a year in a pension and I will continue to draw 2-3 times that without killing my legacy.
 
The long and short of it was it used the best case possible for teachers and the worst case for physicians. The one I recall also included the pension plan for the teacher in their retirement income and ignored the interest and dividends earned by the physician's significant retirement accounts during their retirement. Joe the teacher will get 60k a year in a pension and I will continue to draw 2-3 times that without killing my legacy.

Pension plans in the USA for government/state/city employees have generally favored those on the lower side of the income range.

Higher income professionals working for government (like VA docs), the math is a lot more complicated depending on one's lifestyle choices. Most who worked in the past for the VA system knowing they got a pretty good guaranteed pension. But they got paid $100K-150K below market rate annually. The issue is those in private practice tend to spend a lot more on luxury (bigger homes, luxury cars). So rather than putting most of those extra earnings into savings, they blow it.
 
Honestly, and this has been true of many AMCs who have taken over (or purchased group contracts). My friends group who sold out to Mednax (American Anesthesiology) says the new hires hours were much better than his when he was with the group before the sell out. He was averaging around 55-60 hours a week before the sell out. Now a few years after the buyout, newer hires average 45-50 hours a week.
 
Honestly, and this has been true of many AMCs who have taken over (or purchased group contracts). My friends group who sold out to Mednax (American Anesthesiology) says the new hires hours were much better than his when he was with the group before the sell out. He was averaging around 55-60 hours a week before the sell out. Now a few years after the buyout, newer hires average 45-50 hours a week.

My n=1 agrees with this. Achieved through a combination of more FTEs + less vacation. Private practice groups tend to run very lean on bodies and work very hard to cut the pie into fewer slices. There is also a corporate liability element that incentivizes AMCs to hold down the maximum amount of hours worked- liability of the corporation due to fatigued individuals in medmal actions. If a doc testified, and it was verifiable that it was an expectation that everybody routinely worked 60+ hours, he could be incentivized to attribute questionable medical decision making to being fatigued and shift responsibility to his/her employer. Something that made no sense if he were in private practice and a corporate owner.
 
I actively disbelieve the illusion that EM jobs are so stressful you cant work more than 128 hours a month without being burned out, or that it is more stressful than a day supervising cases at a busy tertiary care hospital. There are EM guys with that schedule at urgent care centers, which is equivalent to our ASC jobs.

Edit: This is not to say EM is easy, or not stressful, just that argument for hours is silly. Just call it what it is, and say "EM hours worked are low because reimbursement is "good enough" and you like to have some time off to make up for working evenings, weekends, and nights."

This may apply to level 1 trauma centers but for most ER's you see a lot of patients that are just not sick
 
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