comments appreciated
Any info on U of Minnesota?
- Thread starter Thrombus
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Back in the day, Minnesota was one of the finest path programs in the world, believe it or not. Rosai and many others were there. Then many of the big names left and the program had some trouble - I think it had more to do with economic situations and the hospital system itself, but I can't claim expertise. It's still a great place, in my opinion, with a large catchment area, although it is rather close to the Mayo. I believe now they focus a bit on the training of private practice pathologists.
If I remember right, their hemepath program is quite good, still. Dr Brunning is still there.
I don't know a ton about their training program, though. Didn't interview there. Perhaps others do.
If I remember right, their hemepath program is quite good, still. Dr Brunning is still there.
I don't know a ton about their training program, though. Didn't interview there. Perhaps others do.
Thrombus said:
One of the medical students from my class went there for residency. He was AOA and had a pretty amazing CV. It was by far his first choice. So obviously he was impressed with the program.
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i'm bumping this up to get some more current info about the UMN program. i'll be there saturday to see for myself, but i know they had their first batch already this season, and that we have a current resident who posts, so perhaps they can answer some of my questions beforehand. plus, i can't make the friday night dinner with residents where i'd have asked some of this stuff.
general or specialty sign-out? 3 day cycle for surg path, or preview-signout-gross a little each day? how much time is spent at each hospital site, and how does being spread out affect didactics? someone told me pgy1 and pgy2s don't preview - is this accurate, and if so what do people think about that? will they be taking 5 pgy1s in the match this year? typical day on surg path ends at ___ o'clock? the online mock schedule shows year 4 entirely open to a fellowship/electives/research - is this accurate as well?
thanks to any and all who reply.
general or specialty sign-out? 3 day cycle for surg path, or preview-signout-gross a little each day? how much time is spent at each hospital site, and how does being spread out affect didactics? someone told me pgy1 and pgy2s don't preview - is this accurate, and if so what do people think about that? will they be taking 5 pgy1s in the match this year? typical day on surg path ends at ___ o'clock? the online mock schedule shows year 4 entirely open to a fellowship/electives/research - is this accurate as well?
thanks to any and all who reply.
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Thought it was a decent program. General sign out for surg path, 2-day cycle (gross day 1, sign out day 2), depends on the rotation you're at 4 or 5 different hospitals (5 i think), so you're not in the same setting as all the other residents very often. can't remember the other details without looking at my notes, but other things i remember were...
most residents either rented or had condos, some nearby, some in suburbs. benefits were decent, competitive PGY1 salary; one thing i didn't like about the interview was that is was on saturday, when the place was empty, and you only met with 3 faculty. you saw a handful of residents, but you didn't see anything of the day-to-day workings. i got the impression the faculty didn't like this set up either...it's their first time trying it, though, so i'm sure there's kinks to work out.
either way, it would have been nice to go on a week day, though it would have only offered a glimpse of 1 of the 5 hospitals they service (the U, the VA, and i think 3 private hospitals that are now affiliated with the U.)
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thanks for that info - is the 2-day cycle why there's no previewing early on? simply no time? not seeing things in "action" doesn't really bother me - i don't feel like i get that much info from sitting in on a conference or sign-out. for me, the most important things by far are talking to the PD and also talking to the residents.
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You get different didactics when you're rotating at one of the other hospitals- the VA, for instance, has a daily Interesting Case conference and a weekly unknown conference that doesn't always happen. That's actually a current complaint among residents- the didactic lectures are consistently scheduled but the lecturer often cancels, or unknown conference just doesn't happen.
Generally the residents are done grossing at or before 5:00, and on sign out day the attending always dismisses at 5:00.
At the University Hospital, no residents preview, regardless of what year they're in.
The 4th year is entirely open to electives, and most residents do all surge path and call it a SP Fellowship.
See you on Saturday, mlw!
Generally the residents are done grossing at or before 5:00, and on sign out day the attending always dismisses at 5:00.
At the University Hospital, no residents preview, regardless of what year they're in.
The 4th year is entirely open to electives, and most residents do all surge path and call it a SP Fellowship.
See you on Saturday, mlw!
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thanks for the info ygdrasil. interesting setup they have there... i'll be curious to hear what the residents think about the variations they have. hopefully we get a bunch to show up so we can talk to them. see ya Sat morn.
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The basics:
There are four sites: U of MN-Fairview, Hennepin County Med Ctr, VA and Abbott-Northwestern - listed in descending order of how much time residents typically spend at each site.
Of an AP/CP 4-year residency, about a third of the time is spent at the U.
ANW is for senior surg path only as it has the heaviest volume, though the cytopath fellows do rotate there. GI bigwigs Drs. Batts and Burgart are based at ANW, though recently some of the volume has gone to MN GI which some think of as a pod lab, where residents don't rotate.
Yes, each site has their own didactics (HCMC-ANW does regular unknowns, they were formerly a separate residency program). The Wednesday grand rounds and Friday AM resident conferences are held at the U for all residents.
Typical day on surg path ends between 5-6pm, not counting finishing up autopsy reports and looking at unknowns.
PGY-4 is indeed open for electives - most people do the in-house surg path fellowship that comprises 6 months at the U, 3 at the VA and 3 at ANW. Traditionally this occurred due to the need for a 5th credentialling year when Pathology was still a 5-year residency.
General signout at the U, HCMC and VA. ANW is moving towards subspecialty signout. U/HCMC/ANW are basically 2-day cycles: Day 1 gross/frozens, Day 2 preview/signout.
There have been issues with residents not being able to do much previewing at the U - if you visit here you will be interviewing at the U only, and I would recommend you take the chance to ask about previewing, and make it clear that previewing is important criteria by which candidates evaluate residency programs.
There is relatively strong practical CP training compared with the rest of the country, i.e. not just sit in a corner and read a book. Typically each CP rotation is a 3-month block: one month at VA, one month at HCMC, one month at the U.
Not sure how many PGY-1 spots this year - that's a question for the coordinator.
Most residents who are single, rent. A few own, and tend to be marrieds/with kids.
I personally would not make stipends a factor in deciding where one goes for residency - they are pretty standardized depending on which part of the country the program is based.
The general:
Since it is interview season, I thought I'd mention the fact that I have written about the Three Tiers of Pathology Residencies in the past.
Tier 1: the big names that are frequently mentioned on SDN and elsewhere
Tier 2: the largest group (and I believe UMN sits in this group), the middle-of-the-packs
Tier 3: just generally not that great, whether on probation or in underserved areas etc.
For objective evaluations of programs, I highly recommend looking at ACGME reports.
There are certainly bad programs out there, yet as far as I know there is only one program on probation currently - so buyer beware!
Dr. Margaret Grimes of ACGME's RRC has told me that RRC would much rather programs correct their own shortcomings, though RRC does keep a strict watch on those that don't. So when the ACGME Resident Survey arrives in your mailbox, take it seriously.
ACGME evaluates programs, not residents, though both are so closely-tied that residents are not infrequently afraid of contacting ACGME at all for fear of being whistle-blowers leading their program down the path towards probation. My limited dealings with them have been pretty straightforward - I've written to them myself (contact information is on their website) seeking clarification on away electives and they are very quick to respond.
There are four sites: U of MN-Fairview, Hennepin County Med Ctr, VA and Abbott-Northwestern - listed in descending order of how much time residents typically spend at each site.
Of an AP/CP 4-year residency, about a third of the time is spent at the U.
ANW is for senior surg path only as it has the heaviest volume, though the cytopath fellows do rotate there. GI bigwigs Drs. Batts and Burgart are based at ANW, though recently some of the volume has gone to MN GI which some think of as a pod lab, where residents don't rotate.
Yes, each site has their own didactics (HCMC-ANW does regular unknowns, they were formerly a separate residency program). The Wednesday grand rounds and Friday AM resident conferences are held at the U for all residents.
Typical day on surg path ends between 5-6pm, not counting finishing up autopsy reports and looking at unknowns.
PGY-4 is indeed open for electives - most people do the in-house surg path fellowship that comprises 6 months at the U, 3 at the VA and 3 at ANW. Traditionally this occurred due to the need for a 5th credentialling year when Pathology was still a 5-year residency.
General signout at the U, HCMC and VA. ANW is moving towards subspecialty signout. U/HCMC/ANW are basically 2-day cycles: Day 1 gross/frozens, Day 2 preview/signout.
There have been issues with residents not being able to do much previewing at the U - if you visit here you will be interviewing at the U only, and I would recommend you take the chance to ask about previewing, and make it clear that previewing is important criteria by which candidates evaluate residency programs.
There is relatively strong practical CP training compared with the rest of the country, i.e. not just sit in a corner and read a book. Typically each CP rotation is a 3-month block: one month at VA, one month at HCMC, one month at the U.
Not sure how many PGY-1 spots this year - that's a question for the coordinator.
Most residents who are single, rent. A few own, and tend to be marrieds/with kids.
I personally would not make stipends a factor in deciding where one goes for residency - they are pretty standardized depending on which part of the country the program is based.
The general:
Since it is interview season, I thought I'd mention the fact that I have written about the Three Tiers of Pathology Residencies in the past.
Tier 1: the big names that are frequently mentioned on SDN and elsewhere
Tier 2: the largest group (and I believe UMN sits in this group), the middle-of-the-packs
Tier 3: just generally not that great, whether on probation or in underserved areas etc.
For objective evaluations of programs, I highly recommend looking at ACGME reports.
There are certainly bad programs out there, yet as far as I know there is only one program on probation currently - so buyer beware!
Dr. Margaret Grimes of ACGME's RRC has told me that RRC would much rather programs correct their own shortcomings, though RRC does keep a strict watch on those that don't. So when the ACGME Resident Survey arrives in your mailbox, take it seriously.
ACGME evaluates programs, not residents, though both are so closely-tied that residents are not infrequently afraid of contacting ACGME at all for fear of being whistle-blowers leading their program down the path towards probation. My limited dealings with them have been pretty straightforward - I've written to them myself (contact information is on their website) seeking clarification on away electives and they are very quick to respond.
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thanks, deschutes. that's exactly what i was looking for. i doubt you'll struggle to figure out who i am either, so feel free to say hi. i'll be the guy bundled up in every bit of warm clothing i own down here in florida. i see the low sat morning is going to be quite a bit lower than it is here today in tampa (a balmy 64F).
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mlw03, so you're interviewing at UMN this saturday, 15th?
Nice, because I'll probably meet you there... hehe
I'm also going to the dinner on Friday.
Good luck
Thanks everybody for the reviews!
Nice, because I'll probably meet you there... hehe
I'm also going to the dinner on Friday.
Good luck
Thanks everybody for the reviews!
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yep, i'll be there saturday morning. i won't be at dinner friday, as my flight doesn't get into MSP until 8:15pm. there's supposedly going to be about 25 of us, so that should be interesting... biggest group interview day i've had so far was 8 of us. safe travels to you and the rest of the other interviewees.
mlw03, so you're interviewing at UMN this saturday, 15th?
Nice, because I'll probably meet you there... hehe
I'm also going to the dinner on Friday.
Good luck
Thanks everybody for the reviews!
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I had my interview at the U of Minnesota on 12/15. I had been looking forward to it, but came away disappointed . Among the things that I didn't like was the 2-day sign-out schedule, which allows very little time for previewing slides. The residents told me that they often end up just looking at slides for the first time with the attendings.
The residents also complained about a lack of didactics. There are just 2 hours set aside per week for didactics.
The worst part of the day though was the unfriendly faculty members conducting the interviews. I don't know if they were annoyed about having to come in on a Saturday or if they simply took an instant dislike to me for some reason, but 2 of the 3 interviewers were quite hostile during my interviews. My application is pretty strong (AMG, scores in the mid 90s and some research as well), so I certainly didn't deserve this sort of treatment. It made me think that if they are like this during interviews, when they are supposed to be on their best behavior, then they must be truly malignant to the residents.
. Among the things that I didn't like was the 2-day sign-out schedule, which allows very little time for previewing slides. The residents told me that they often end up just looking at slides for the first time with the attendings.The residents also complained about a lack of didactics. There are just 2 hours set aside per week for didactics.
The worst part of the day though was the unfriendly faculty members conducting the interviews. I don't know if they were annoyed about having to come in on a Saturday or if they simply took an instant dislike to me for some reason, but 2 of the 3 interviewers were quite hostile during my interviews. My application is pretty strong (AMG, scores in the mid 90s and some research as well), so I certainly didn't deserve this sort of treatment. It made me think that if they are like this during interviews, when they are supposed to be on their best behavior, then they must be truly malignant to the residents.
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Hi,
As I said in Post #10 of this thread, there have been issues with residents not being able to do much previewing at the U. Having said that, the U is one of four sites residents go to for surgical pathology, and the U rotation tends to be a junior (1st/2nd year) rotation.
At HCMC for instance, residents preview everything and enter diagnoses into the computer, including those cases that the PAs grossed in. At the VA, the resident/fellow divvy up the day's pile to preview, and then switch so that both see everything. At Abbott, due to the high volume the sign-out resident for the day does not see all the cases that go through, but does get to see the "interesting cases" as well as everything that they gross in. Additionally there is an "interesting case box" where the attendings put in the cool cases from the day for residents to look at.
There are two core didactics at the U that all residents attend i.e. department Grand Rounds on Wednesdays and Friday AM residents' conference. In addition to this, each site has their own conference schedule for unknowns/tumor board. Residents attend additional conferences at the U, based on what rotation they are on e.g. CP conference, surg path unknowns, cytology conference, hemepath daily case conference and hemepath didactics.
I really am sorry to hear of your experience with unfriendly interviewers - I have to say though that if they are the individuals I am thinking of, as a resident you'd only spend a month max with either of them out of the 48-month stretch of AP/CP.
Lastly, before lurkers and applicant-posters start freaking out that a current resident who is a moderator reads their posts, I want to make clear that the information here (apart from what the individual poster make publically available on the Internet) will not be used for admissions committee purposes.
I believe both programs and applicants would rather find out that they are not a good match for each other before entering a four-year contract. So feel free to review programs honestly. Yaah started an anonymous program review thread, and SDN also has a residency program interview review function now.
As I said in Post #10 of this thread, there have been issues with residents not being able to do much previewing at the U. Having said that, the U is one of four sites residents go to for surgical pathology, and the U rotation tends to be a junior (1st/2nd year) rotation.
At HCMC for instance, residents preview everything and enter diagnoses into the computer, including those cases that the PAs grossed in. At the VA, the resident/fellow divvy up the day's pile to preview, and then switch so that both see everything. At Abbott, due to the high volume the sign-out resident for the day does not see all the cases that go through, but does get to see the "interesting cases" as well as everything that they gross in. Additionally there is an "interesting case box" where the attendings put in the cool cases from the day for residents to look at.
There are two core didactics at the U that all residents attend i.e. department Grand Rounds on Wednesdays and Friday AM residents' conference. In addition to this, each site has their own conference schedule for unknowns/tumor board. Residents attend additional conferences at the U, based on what rotation they are on e.g. CP conference, surg path unknowns, cytology conference, hemepath daily case conference and hemepath didactics.
I really am sorry to hear of your experience with unfriendly interviewers - I have to say though that if they are the individuals I am thinking of, as a resident you'd only spend a month max with either of them out of the 48-month stretch of AP/CP.
Lastly, before lurkers and applicant-posters start freaking out that a current resident who is a moderator reads their posts, I want to make clear that the information here (apart from what the individual poster make publically available on the Internet) will not be used for admissions committee purposes.
I believe both programs and applicants would rather find out that they are not a good match for each other before entering a four-year contract. So feel free to review programs honestly. Yaah started an anonymous program review thread, and SDN also has a residency program interview review function now.
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I interviewed at U of MN in a previous cycle, and I had the same experience of a hostile faculty member. I had the opportunity to speak with some others that were interviewing as well that day, and they had similarly hostile interactions with this guy. We were all solid AMG's and everyone interviewing that day seemed friendly. Someone at the U of MN needs to get this guy off of the interview list.
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while i agree that a bad interviewer is unpleasant, i think it's unfair to judge a program based on it. unless it's the PD or a core faculty member, it really doesn't matter that much. i too had an interviewer at UMN i found a little abrasive, but it won't factor into my decision. a bigger concern with the mass interview day was my not getting to speak one-on-one with the PD. descutes, please consider mentioning this to him. i feel that to spend all that time and money getting to visit a program, and then not getting to present yourself to the PD, is a shame.
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Thanks for the feedback you guys, this is very helpful. I'll pass it on.
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haha, I bet all of us had the same faculty on our "bad interview." I'm glad I met with this individual though because if my husband came with me he would have to ask this person for a job. No way would he want to work there.
MN is not going to get ranked.
MN is not going to get ranked.
I just stumbled on to this thread and I was interested to read that others also disliked their interview experience at the U of Minnesota. There were a lot of things that I did not like about my interview experience, but the thing that really amazed me was that the program director didn't even bother to meet with all the applicants during their interviews. There are so many good programs out there that I don't understand why this PD thinks that he can treat people in this way and still have high quality applicants choose to come to his program. Perhaps he doesn't care?
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No joke, that is correct. There were maybe even a few years where Minn was the no1 program in the country (when Rosai was there I believe..).
Nowadays tho?? dunno.
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i hope it's not a matter of not caring. i think this uber-interview day format was an experiment for them, and from the responses on here, it didn't go over well. obviously the residency class they end up with will ultimately say whether it worked or not. in theory it can work, but to do so i think they need to get a far greater resident and faculty attendance, and yes, i agree an individual meeting, if only for 15 minutes, with the PD is crucial. i would also add that the day only lasting until noon left a negative impression on me, too (and about half the day was spent in waiting session between interviews). the feeling i get when i think about it is that the program considered the interview day a "hassle" and tried to simply complete for formality of it so they can then simply make their rank list based on the paper application. if you're going to only have 2 interview days so as to not disrupt normal business, at least have those days be full of information. but at other programs i felt welcomed - like faculty and residents were genuinely excited at the opportunity to show me all the great stuff their program offered. perhaps my assessment is wrong, so maybe some of the other applicants can agree or disagree with it.
i'm not writing all this to be mean, and i know UMN people can figure out who i am, rather i write this in the hope that some of these things can be improved upon for future applicants. minneapolis was a great city and the program has a lot of good things going for it, but this interview day format did an inadequate job of showing it.
i'm not writing all this to be mean, and i know UMN people can figure out who i am, rather i write this in the hope that some of these things can be improved upon for future applicants. minneapolis was a great city and the program has a lot of good things going for it, but this interview day format did an inadequate job of showing it.
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My impression of the interview was essentially the same as everyone else, but I don't necessarily equate the interview experience with the inherent quality of the program. Admissions departments make mistakes; I know this first hand. What I'm curious about is WHY they went to this format...if, like mlw suggests, it disrupts normal business, THAT would be telling, and unfortunate.
One thing I would say is that even if Rosai were still there, or any other big name for that matter, it doesn't necessarily correlate with better teaching or a better resident experience...your interaction with such people could be amazingly limited.
One thing I would say is that even if Rosai were still there, or any other big name for that matter, it doesn't necessarily correlate with better teaching or a better resident experience...your interaction with such people could be amazingly limited.
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I had my interview at the U of Minnesota on 12/15. I had been looking forward to it, but came away disappointed
Well that is better than programs with "subspecialty sign-out" which are basically on a 1-day schedule of "sign-out/gross/preview" However there are only about 10 pure subspecialized programs (MGH, BW, UCLA, HOPKINS and a few others), i.e. attendings only sign-out 1-2 "areas"/organs.
I don't think that you will find anyone these days who thinks that the University of Minnesota program is the No. 1 program in the country. In fact, while I think that it is a reasonable program, I doubt that it could even make the top 20. I'd be interested to know other people's opinions.
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Ummm....ok. Hence the reference to "back in the day." (a.k.a. The Past).
It is still a good program with lots to offer though, as has been said above.
It is still a good program with lots to offer though, as has been said above.
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agreed, and i hope that's what came across in my above posts. i simply hope that the interview day gets improved upon so that this gets conveyed better to next year's interviewees.
to bring it back to current UMN issues, anyone have any new/local info on the minneapolis housing market? is it getting pounded the way we are down here in tampa (second largest %age drop in the country... woohoo!!)? while certainly not a coastal city, housing up there is darn expensive for the upper midwest... only higher market i noted was in madison.
Thank you yaah for solving the mystery of the expression "back in the day" that was particularly insightful of you!
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Sorry if my responses are intermittent - busy rotation. Just wanted to say that yes, I am still listening and your responses are valued (and will be passed on).
There were quite a few amongst the residents who questioned going to Saturday as a format for interviewing residency applicants. Having lots of downtime on a short interview day certainly did not help.
A bit of back-story:
When I applied some years back, I was invited to interview by phone.
I was one of only two candidates on a weekday.
I got to have breakfast and a conclusion interview with the PD; I also met the director of surg path, the neuropath director (because in my shock at being given an interview invitation, I had inexplicably responded to the PD's question by saying that neuropath was one of my interests).
I met lots of residents on the tour and had lunch with two of them including a chief.
I was also probably the only candidate who the PD arranged for a resident to take out to a pre-interview dinner, because of our similar academic histories.
That PD has since retired from the position, though he still occasionally teaches renal path and blood banking at HCMC, not to mention contributing questions for ASCP RISE.
mlw03, I don't own so I don't have much first-hand info about the housing market. I know one resident owns close to downtown, and that was a 1130 sqft 2BR condo they paid $215k for in 2005 (generally thought to be an awesome deal). Others live in the burbs for bigger sqft-age and their own patch of grass. Let me know if there are specific questions you want answered and I can try to find out. Have you tried Zillow.com? I also saw a website recently (can't remember the URL, but I'll post it when I do) that showed trends in prices by city/region - I believe Mpls was still creeping up. The Cities are a very popular place to live, not too congested - tons to do both outdoors and indoors in all seasons.
There were quite a few amongst the residents who questioned going to Saturday as a format for interviewing residency applicants. Having lots of downtime on a short interview day certainly did not help.
A bit of back-story:
When I applied some years back, I was invited to interview by phone.
I was one of only two candidates on a weekday.
I got to have breakfast and a conclusion interview with the PD; I also met the director of surg path, the neuropath director (because in my shock at being given an interview invitation, I had inexplicably responded to the PD's question by saying that neuropath was one of my interests).
I met lots of residents on the tour and had lunch with two of them including a chief.
I was also probably the only candidate who the PD arranged for a resident to take out to a pre-interview dinner, because of our similar academic histories.
That PD has since retired from the position, though he still occasionally teaches renal path and blood banking at HCMC, not to mention contributing questions for ASCP RISE.
mlw03, I don't own so I don't have much first-hand info about the housing market. I know one resident owns close to downtown, and that was a 1130 sqft 2BR condo they paid $215k for in 2005 (generally thought to be an awesome deal). Others live in the burbs for bigger sqft-age and their own patch of grass. Let me know if there are specific questions you want answered and I can try to find out. Have you tried Zillow.com? I also saw a website recently (can't remember the URL, but I'll post it when I do) that showed trends in prices by city/region - I believe Mpls was still creeping up. The Cities are a very popular place to live, not too congested - tons to do both outdoors and indoors in all seasons.
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A few updates since we are approaching application season:
The U now operates on a 3-day cycle, thus allowing previewing of large cases on Day 2.
The 4th year surg path fellowship is gone, I think there are plans to re-institute it with ACGME's blessing as a 5th year fellowship.
Program-wide teaching sessions (attended by all residents) have greatly increased this year. The weekly schedule now:
- Monday 7AM Specialty slide conference (derm/neuro/heme/cytology/renal)
- Wednesday 7AM Unknowns
- Wednesday 8AM Grand rounds (basic science focus)
- Friday 7-9AM Resident didactics
This is in addition to rotation-specific teaching conferences at the different sites.
Dr. McKenna moved back from UTSW so the hemepath fellowship is going great guns.
Unfortunately it does not look like the plan for group interviews on Saturdays will change this year.
If that is the case, I am guessing that resident-applicant private time will be at the pre-interview dinner.
Otherwise, I will try to do my best on SDN and via PM
The U now operates on a 3-day cycle, thus allowing previewing of large cases on Day 2.
The 4th year surg path fellowship is gone, I think there are plans to re-institute it with ACGME's blessing as a 5th year fellowship.
Program-wide teaching sessions (attended by all residents) have greatly increased this year. The weekly schedule now:
- Monday 7AM Specialty slide conference (derm/neuro/heme/cytology/renal)
- Wednesday 7AM Unknowns
- Wednesday 8AM Grand rounds (basic science focus)
- Friday 7-9AM Resident didactics
This is in addition to rotation-specific teaching conferences at the different sites.
Dr. McKenna moved back from UTSW so the hemepath fellowship is going great guns.
Unfortunately it does not look like the plan for group interviews on Saturdays will change this year.
If that is the case, I am guessing that resident-applicant private time will be at the pre-interview dinner.
Otherwise, I will try to do my best on SDN and via PM
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