Anybody Want to Comment?

[pigsatuga]

I know that vet schools are all looking for diversity too. Do you guys think the system is "fair"? Not interested in starting a huge argument here, but just curious about how folks see it.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/10/justice/court-affirmative-action/index.html

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[Emiloo4]

Not interested in starting a huge argument here, but just curious about how folks see it.

Ugh... this thread can only end one way

 

[StartingoverVet]

What kind of diversity are you talking about?

Penn is one of the more diverse vet schools and it is not very diverse at all especially in sex or race so I doubt that it has much impact..

They are looking for diversity of life experiences (not 100% 21 year old vet science majors) which I personally am quite happy about.

Please be more specific....

 

[StartingoverVet]

Just saw the link....

vet schools (and most grad schools) are not particularly affirmative action oriented.

End of discussion.

 

[cowgirla]

I think no matter any school tries to do, someone, somewhere will feel discriminated against.
Can't please everyone no matter how hard you try, unless maybe you just let everyone into every single college they apply to even if they don't have the grades/ LORS/ extracurriculars, whatev.

Vet school specifically, I tend to agree with SOV.

 

[pigsatuga]

Well I guess what I found interesting was the president of the school's description of their acceptance policy.

Roughly paraphrased: Students who ranked within the top 10% (GPA) of any Texas high school was automatically offered a spot. Then the rest of the applicants were decided upon based on GPA, SAT, Extra Curricular Activities, Community Service, Leadership etc. with a small percentage of that coming from an "Explanation" type of essay that could explain hardships etc. They also included race as a small portion of the deciding factor.

It sounds very similar to the types of things looked at in vet school applications, so I thought it was an interesting topic considering that the Supreme Court is reviewing it.

 

[bunnity]

Personally I'd like to see more racial (and other) diversity in vet med. We could argue all night about the best way to achieve that but I think diversity in all its forms is desirable to both schools and the profession. And I don't think that one form makes up for all the others - I love that Penn is age diverse and gay friendly but I still wonder a lot how my black and hispanic classmates (all 2 of them...) feel, and wish that our school looked anything remotely resembling this very diverse city we live in.

 

[Trematode]

I went to an undergrad institution where half of the 3000 students are international.

Here in Canada, I believe (correct me if I am wrong) there are spots set aside in certain programs for minorities who are Canadian.

Our universities are all similar. A prof told me that Canadian universities are equivalent to state universities. We don't have Ivy League schools or small schools that any John Doe can get into. It is fairly easy to get a basic education here where you want it regardless of race.

 

[LetItSnow]

Personally I'd like to see more racial (and other) diversity in vet med. We could argue all night about the best way to achieve that but I think diversity in all its forms is desirable to both schools and the profession. And I don't think that one form makes up for all the others - I love that Penn is age diverse and gay friendly but I still wonder a lot how my black and hispanic classmates (all 2 of them...) feel, and wish that our school looked anything remotely resembling this very diverse city we live in.

I think you can only be as diverse as your applicant pool, and that by the time you get through grade school, middle school, high school, and college .... all of the diversity-crushing points in the system have pretty much made a mockery of that idea.

Put differently: The point at which 'diversity' needs to be valued is far, far earlier in the game than grad school.

 

[bunnity]

I think you can only be as diverse as your applicant pool, and that by the time you get through grade school, middle school, high school, and college .... all of the diversity-crushing points in the system have pretty much made a mockery of that idea.

Put differently: The point at which 'diversity' needs to be valued is far, far earlier in the game than grad school.

Yeah it's definitely a bigger issue than just grad level admissions. My impression is that med school is way more diverse (maybe I'm wrong about that?). I wonder if there is anything vet schools can learn from other types of grad schools as far as promoting/supporting a more diverse student body.

 

[nyanko]

I think you can only be as diverse as your applicant pool, and that by the time you get through grade school, middle school, high school, and college .... all of the diversity-crushing points in the system have pretty much made a mockery of that idea.

Put differently: The point at which 'diversity' needs to be valued is far, far earlier in the game than grad school.

The old man is right on the money here. The whole 'affirmative action' in higher education thing is IMO nothing more than a little tiny hemostat attempting to stop the bleeding of the aorta. It's not enough, and it's too late.

That article is kinda dumb, so instead of actually commenting on it I'm going to lol at the idiots in the comments section there:

We owe the black race nothing absolutely nothing. No more than they owe the white man. When Lincoln freeded the slaves he stated that he felt the two races could never have peace and encouraged the blacks to leave America and settle in another country. Why didn't they?

well um, I um....

 

[fromthebox]

My diversity essay was about teaching 16th century Italian swordfighting.

 

[fromthebox]

Nyanko, where is that quote from?!?

 

[nyanko]

Nyanko, where is that quote from?!?

Comments sections are generally steaming piles. Here is another.

How about a minority getting a seat in medical school ahead of/instead of the actual qualified person???? Then you send your wife or child to this MD who came in the back door. Now what?? He came in the back door and the school must graduate so many minorities to keep their subsidy so he gets an MD; but is he really???????? sambo

 

[abc22]

It's not so much a question of race as it is a question about opportunity.

I'm sure that vet schools should/could consider race a bit more in the admissions process since different demographics of parents will have different opinions about veterinary medicine as a career. This definitely dictates what kind of educational climate a child grows up in. If a kid wants to work with animals but sees that it is somewhat frowned upon, he/she will be less inclined to work towards a career in veterinary science, no?

Not all of us had the chance to be around animals or live on farms or even have veterinarians as parents, so [imo] schools should consider that for non-trads who went different routes before finally deciding to go to veterinary school. Even if we work our asses off to amass hours, our experiences sections still can't hold a candle to those of some others who grew up with the profession .

Once again, not trying to incite anger.

 

[nyanko]

It's not so much a question of race as it is a question about opportunity.

I'm sure that vet schools should/could consider race a bit more in the admissions process since different demographics of parents will have different opinions about veterinary medicine as a career. This definitely dictates what kind of educational climate a child grows up in. If a kid wants to work with animals but sees that it is somewhat frowned upon, he/she will be less inclined to work towards a career in veterinary science, no?

Yes but LIS's point (and I think it is a good one) is that then these kids are derailed long before they get the chance to apply to vet school. And it's not always about the parents' opinions of vet med as a career - when you are talking about economically or racially disadvantaged people, it can be a matter of other stumbling blocks that get in the way before they get the chance to pursue vet med. If we want more minorities and a more diverse economic background in the profession (and I think we do, in fact I think we NEED this), then we need to target these kids BEFORE they give up or can't continue on in school or whatever, help them find the tools they need to succeed, and support them along the way rather than a cursory "well IF you manage to make it this far, you get a 'boost' in the admissions process" handwave.

Not all of us had the chance to be around animals or live on farms or even have veterinarians as parents, so [imo] schools should consider that for non-trads who went different routes before finally deciding to go to veterinary school. Even if we work our asses off to amass hours, our experiences sections still can't hold a candle to those of some others who grew up with the profession .

This was me, my family had no pets growing up and I am a non-trad. The schools do consider this, at least most do. I don't get what your point is...

 

[abc22]

Yes but LIS's point (and I think it is a good one) is that then these kids are derailed long before they get the chance to apply to vet school. And it's not always about the parents' opinions of vet med as a career - when you are talking about economically or racially disadvantaged people, it can be a matter of other stumbling blocks that get in the way before they get the chance to pursue vet med. If we want more minorities and a more diverse economic background in the profession (and I think we do, in fact I think we NEED this), then we need to target these kids BEFORE they give up or can't continue on in school or whatever, help them find the tools they need to succeed, and support them along the way rather than a cursory "well IF you manage to make it this far, you get a 'boost' in the admissions process" handwave.



This was me, my family had no pets growing up and I am a non-trad. The schools do consider this, at least most do. I don't get what your point is...

I totally agree with everyone. Since the topic at hand is about race, however, I was just voicing my opinion that schools shouldn't focus so much on ethnic classifications. It seems unfair to me if a Caucasian/Asian person receives less "diversity" points than a person who is considered to be an URM when they are compared side-by-side due to similar stats. I know plenty of URM students whose parents are very educated and successful and, thus, they were provided with great opportunities. Meanwhile, some Caucasian or Asian kids' parents may never have graduated from high school. My old roommate was part Cherokee or something (like 1/16 or 1:32 ) and I know that she milked it on her med school apps even though she was blonde and blue-eyed with two attorneys for parents.

I was surprised that ethnicity classification was requested on every single supplemental while no info on socioeconomic background or parental education was requested, unless considered to have been disadvantageous. I think that would be more relevant info that would help to create a more diverse class but that's just my 2 cents.

Anyway, this chick should not have sued the school. It just makes her look ridiculous and entitled. She should have just gone and whined on internet forums like I did

 

[Lissarae06]

I totally agree with everyone. Since the topic at hand is about race, however, I was just voicing my opinion that schools shouldn't focus so much on ethnic classifications. It seems unfair to me if a Caucasian/Asian person receives less "diversity" points than a person who is considered to be an URM when they are compared side-by-side due to similar stats. I know plenty of URM students whose parents are very educated and successful and, thus, they were provided with great opportunities. Meanwhile, some Caucasian or Asian kids' parents may never have graduated from high school. My old roommate was part Cherokee or something (like 1/16 or 1:32 ) and I know that she milked it on her med school apps even though she was blonde and blue-eyed with two attorneys for parents.

I was surprised that ethnicity classification was requested on every single supplemental while no info on socioeconomic background or parental education was requested, unless considered to have been disadvantageous. I think that would be more relevant info that would help to create a more diverse class but that's just my 2 cents.

Anyway, this chick should not have sued the school. It just makes her look ridiculous and entitled. She should have just gone and whined on internet forums like I did

I know plenty of Indians (or Native Americans for you PC folks) that have blonde hair and blue eyes. In fact, I am one of them. I also have 2 attorneys for parents. You're not my old roommate are you? J/k, I'm not Cherokee or in med school. You never know who you might be "talking" to on forums so you might want to think about that before you use emoticons like this one

 

[DVMDream]

I know plenty of Indians (or Native Americans for you PC folks) that have blonde hair and blue eyes. In fact, I am one of them. I also have 2 attorneys for parents. You're not my old roommate are you? J/k, I'm not Cherokee or in med school. You never know who you might be "talking" to on forums so you might want to think about that before you use emoticons like this one

I used to say Indian for Native Americans and then I had a room mate who was Indian (as in from India) and a coworker who was Native American... I have now become used to using the PC terms...

 

[nyanko]

I totally agree with everyone. Since the topic at hand is about race, however, I was just voicing my opinion that schools shouldn't focus so much on ethnic classifications. It seems unfair to me if a Caucasian/Asian person receives less "diversity" points than a person who is considered to be an URM when they are compared side-by-side due to similar stats. I know plenty of URM students whose parents are very educated and successful and, thus, they were provided with great opportunities. Meanwhile, some Caucasian or Asian kids' parents may never have graduated from high school.

I keep trying to respond to this but I can't find an angle that I think you could relate to, because I think that your fundamental assumptions about the state of racial equity in this country lack a basis in reality. I also think you're considering it on a personal and individual level rather than a population-based level, which is ultimately where ideas like affirmative action come from. So I'm unable to really discuss this with you at this point.

 

[StartingoverVet]

In fact, I am one of them. I also have 2 attorneys for parents. You're not my old roommate are you? J/k, I'm not Cherokee or in med school. You never know who you might be "talking" to on forums so you might want to think about that before you use emoticons like this one

I must defriend you now. Attorneys for parents? Almost as bad as hedge fund managers. The horror The horror. (FYI: my brother and sister-in-law are attorneys. )...

You must have had a hard time growing up with lawyer jokes AND blond jokes.

 

[Lissarae06]

I must defriend you now. Attorneys for parents? Almost as bad as hedge fund managers. The horror The horror. (FYI: my brother and sister-in-law are attorneys. )...

You must have had a hard time growing up with lawyer jokes AND blond jokes.

I love blonde jokes. I don't think lawyer jokes are that funny though. They are all the same and get old fast. My dad doesn't practice anymore- he is in a different career now but still maintains his license. My mom is an assistant DA but only works part time. She likes to think of herself as semi-retired.

 

[Abnerrs]

I pass for black all the time.....

 

[StartingoverVet]

I pass for black all the time.....

 

[Abnerrs]

Shut up It was funny.


I'm going to tell mom you're picking on me on the interwebz again..........

 

[bunnity]

"URM" means underrepresented in medicine. It's a medical school admissions term that refers to an attempt to increase racial/ethnic diversity in medicine for the sake of the medical community, and for patients who may feel more comfortable with a doctor that is from their same race or culture.

"Disadvantaged" is also used in medical school admissions to mean socioeconomically disadvantaged, and you have been on some kind of welfare like free school lunches, food stamps, etc.

So there are really 3 goals that a school could be working towards:
1. More diversity, because diversity is good for the profession and the clients (or patients if you're in human med).
2. Recruitment of students who have suffered economic hardship and likely not had access to the same educational resources, have had to work during school, do not have family members that have been in college, etc.
3. Recruitment of students who are racial minorities, both as an acknowledgement of the effect systemic racism has likely had on their lives (and please don't act like this country is not racist), and also because being a racial minority is a correlate for the socioeconomic hardship.

I think you (abc) are conflating these goals. If a school wants to be more racially diverse for the sake of diversity, then of course they don't care whose parents had what job. If they are trying to account purely for economic disadvantage, they can ask about that on their supplemental.

And I think think it's pretty entitled to be a white person complaining about how it's unfair to be white. The point of the affirmative action system is to make things as fair as possible... level the playing field on a societal level. It doesn't mean there won't be the occasional individual situation that is "unfair." But honestly if you have enjoyed all the privilege that comes with being (take your pick... white, male, straight, cisgender, etc) and haven't managed to make yourself competitive, that's on you. And if you have truly faced disadvantages despite being a non-minority, there is plenty of space for you to talk about how you overcame that in your PS or explanation statement, and let an admissions committee take that into account.

 

[RadRadTerp]

Yes but LIS's point (and I think it is a good one) is that then these kids are derailed long before they get the chance to apply to vet school. And it's not always about the parents' opinions of vet med as a career - when you are talking about economically or racially disadvantaged people, it can be a matter of other stumbling blocks that get in the way before they get the chance to pursue vet med. If we want more minorities and a more diverse economic background in the profession (and I think we do, in fact I think we NEED this), then we need to target these kids BEFORE they give up or can't continue on in school or whatever, help them find the tools they need to succeed, and support them along the way rather than a cursory "well IF you manage to make it this far, you get a 'boost' in the admissions process" handwave.

Agreed completely. I'm active in VOICE at my school and one of our service goals is to outreach to kids in grade school from disadvantaged backgrounds, both economic and ethnic (and that includes impoverished Appalachian white folk) so that they can see science as a possible career choice so they don't give up so early in their academic lives, which is what I consider primarily the source of under representation. I'm also a proponent of need-based aid, regardless of race/ethnicity because the profession would benefit from having intelligent doctors from different economic "walks of life".

The toughest part is convincing people that we're not trying to game the system for racial minorities when they hear the term "diversity" because that tends to tank the conversation.

 

[StartingoverVet]

Shut up It was funny.


I'm going to tell mom you're picking on me on the interwebz again..........

Bunnity is having a serious conversation, and we are interrupting it with our silliness. Sorry Bunnity.

But really, I am a bully for using "" this smiley.

 

[DVMDream]

Bunnity is having a serious conversation, and we are interrupting it with our silliness. Sorry Bunnity.

But really, I am a bully for using "" this smiley.

Careful, you are going to put Emiloo to shame..

 

[StartingoverVet]

"URM" means underrepresented in medicine. It's a medical school admissions term that refers to an attempt to increase racial/ethnic diversity in medicine for the sake of the medical community, and for patients who may feel more comfortable with a doctor that is from their same race or culture.

"Disadvantaged" is also used in medical school admissions to mean socioeconomically disadvantaged, and you have been on some kind of welfare like free school lunches, food stamps, etc.

So there are really 3 goals that a school could be working towards:
1. More diversity, because diversity is good for the profession and the clients (or patients if you're in human med).
2. Recruitment of students who have suffered economic hardship and likely not had access to the same educational resources, have had to work during school, do not have family members that have been in college, etc.
3. Recruitment of students who are racial minorities, both as an acknowledgement of the effect systemic racism has likely had on their lives (and please don't act like this country is not racist), and also because being a racial minority is a correlate for the socioeconomic hardship.

I think you (abc) are conflating these goals. If a school wants to be more racially diverse for the sake of diversity, then of course they don't care whose parents had what job. If they are trying to account purely for economic disadvantage, they can ask about that on their supplemental.

And I think think it's pretty entitled to be a white person complaining about how it's unfair to be white. The point of the affirmative action system is to make things as fair as possible... level the playing field on a societal level. It doesn't mean there won't be the occasional individual situation that is "unfair." But honestly if you have enjoyed all the privilege that comes with being (take your pick... white, male, straight, cisgender, etc) and haven't managed to make yourself competitive, that's on you. And if you have truly faced disadvantages despite being a non-minority, there is plenty of space for you to talk about how you overcame that in your PS or explanation statement, and let an admissions committee take that into account.

FWIW I don't think that this is going to be a really effective or worthwhile conversation in vet med.

The applicant pool is just too narrow to really make much of a difference in the composition of any given class, so there is little sense in having the conversation right now. I am guessing that in human med there is a lot more room to address those issues.

I am more in the camp (which is certainly not precluding your view), that the goal is to
1) level the playing field earlier in the game
2) generate interest in vet med by underrepresented groups.

If we can accomplish those 2 things (admittedly difficult) then there would (ultimately)be much less of a need for the affirmative action debate.

Unfortunately neither of these things are close to being accomplished. ANd one without the other is pretty meaningless. No sense in building up dreams that are unrealistic in a system stacked against the disadvantaged... and no use in fixing the system, unless the kids realize they have a chance to move up in the world.


For point of reference, my first boss (who is now a trustee at Penn), set up the Say Yes to Education system, one of those programs that guaranteed inner city, poor, 5th graders (i think) to pay for a college or vocational education if they finished high school, but unlike some other programs that preceeded it (this was set up 25+ years ago), they provided support for the students with mentoring, tutoring from Penn students etc. Still only about 1/2 (slightly less if I recall) graduated high school. All the usual suspects... death, prison, pregnancy, giving up....

So it is more than just saying, lets give more money, or more support to these kids... We need that plus a constant push to change their outlook.
They still do the program and keep on tweaking it, but honestly college finances is not the barrier to these kids.. it starts much earlier.

Not sure how I got on this rant... Must really not want to study.

I am sure this is tl;dr. Sorry.

 

[Lissarae06]

I think there is certainly a lot of work to be done with kids when they are younger. I know several Indian tribes have programs in place to do just this. My brother works for an organization called Native Explorers. Their whole mission is to get Native American kids interested in the sciences. I almost worked for them this summer but the timing didn't work out. They go on paleo digs out in Black Mesa (which is really cool). There are a bunch of prehistoric rhino fossils and stuff out there. And they do other sciency stuff through the program as well. The program has really started to grow and I hope it has the impact they are looking for. Several tribes have incentive programs to try to get more of their tribe members in college and beyond. I get a post-grad incentive every semester for being in vet school and getting good grades. I think the combo of programs like these will hopefully influence more tribal members to pursue higher ed in the sciences.

 

[abc22]

"URM" means underrepresented in medicine. It's a medical school admissions term that refers to an attempt to increase racial/ethnic diversity in medicine for the sake of the medical community, and for patients who may feel more comfortable with a doctor that is from their same race or culture.

"Disadvantaged" is also used in medical school admissions to mean socioeconomically disadvantaged, and you have been on some kind of welfare like free school lunches, food stamps, etc.

So there are really 3 goals that a school could be working towards:
1. More diversity, because diversity is good for the profession and the clients (or patients if you're in human med).
2. Recruitment of students who have suffered economic hardship and likely not had access to the same educational resources, have had to work during school, do not have family members that have been in college, etc.
3. Recruitment of students who are racial minorities, both as an acknowledgement of the effect systemic racism has likely had on their lives (and please don't act like this country is not racist), and also because being a racial minority is a correlate for the socioeconomic hardship.

I think you (abc) are conflating these goals. If a school wants to be more racially diverse for the sake of diversity, then of course they don't care whose parents had what job. If they are trying to account purely for economic disadvantage, they can ask about that on their supplemental.

And I think think it's pretty entitled to be a white person complaining about how it's unfair to be white. The point of the affirmative action system is to make things as fair as possible... level the playing field on a societal level. It doesn't mean there won't be the occasional individual situation that is "unfair." But honestly if you have enjoyed all the privilege that comes with being (take your pick... white, male, straight, cisgender, etc) and haven't managed to make yourself competitive, that's on you. And if you have truly faced disadvantages despite being a non-minority, there is plenty of space for you to talk about how you overcame that in your PS or explanation statement, and let an admissions committee take that into account.

Well, first of all, I'm not Caucasian. My skin color would actually be looked upon favorably in terms of affirmative action. So I can tell you from experience that I work my ass off in everything that I do, be it work or school, and it really pushes my buttons when people assume that my accomplishments were handed to me easily because of policies like AA. I do not have a sense of entitlement unless I feel that it is deserved due to my effort and hard work. My parents are dirt poor but I wouldn't consider myself to have been disadvantaged because they worked THEIR asses off to provide me with the best that they could. I think affirmative action is ridiculous, even if it acts in my favor, because there are people in my racial group who are VERY privileged. My point was that, in terms of veterinary school applications (which is what was being addressed in the original post), socioeconomic status should be as important as race for diversity purposes. I wasn't commenting on the entire education system as a whole since that is a much more convoluted issue.