Anyone regretting doing a graduate degree in clinical psych?

[Dream1a]

I've been reading these forums for a while now and i've seen many people actually state that they regret that they did a Ph.D in clinical psychology. But for the sake of their age, and time invested, there would be no point in changing their career now. Is this the truth for a lot of people?

It reminds me of something I learned in social psych where people will just continue what their doing to justify the amount of effort they put in which is presumably easier (and more logical) than starting again from scratch.

Sadly, based on the gloomy prospects and the insecurity of clinical psychology, I think, if i continue, I will regret it as well..

Money is not my only motivation in life, but no one can deny that it remains apart of any decision pertaining to our career. Whilst I understand that people have genuine interests in research and would do it for "next to nothing", I do not believe that this is the majority of people.

Clinical psychology seems extremely difficult to get into, requiring extensive research, and good grades (all of which take a lot of effort and time). I'm far from an economist, but to me, the time and effort required to achieve a Ph.D is much > than the return. People who are admitted to clinical psychology are "presumably" extremely intelligent, but are they also extremely proud? It seems as if there is some sort of wishful thinking on their part that it will get "better" but logically, a sure outcome should trump a shaky one.. right?

Granted that they may have no debt at graduation, but, personally, I'd rather have debt and have a salary to pay it back then have no debt and no salary.

The question is, do people just continue with psych because they've dug themselves too deep and rather continue than starting again or do people enjoy it so much that they don't take into account that the return is much lower than the input?

I think most people, including myself, live their lives believing that if you put in a lot of hard work, such as in university, you expect a return. I'm not saying that a lot of hard work entitles someone to have an equivalent return but rather that why would people KNOWINGLY put in so much effort realizing that the outcome is pretty bleak?

Indeed, why would a rational person choose the longest and hardest path when there are shortcuts or more secure alternatives? (i.e. Masters, MD)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Psychology 76]

I've been reading these forums for a while now and i've seen many people actually state that they regret that they did a Ph.D in clinical psychology. But for the sake of their age, and time invested, there would be no point in changing their career now. Is this the truth for a lot of people?

It reminds me of something I learned in social psych where people will just continue what their doing to justify the amount of effort they put in which is presumably easier (and more logical) than starting again from scratch.

Sadly, based on the gloomy prospects and the insecurity of clinical psychology, I think, if i continue, I will regret it as well..

Money is not my only motivation in life, but no one can deny that it remains apart of any decision pertaining to our career. Whilst I understand that people have genuine interests in research and would do it for "next to nothing", I do not believe that this is the majority of people.

Clinical psychology seems extremely difficult to get into, requiring extensive research, and good grades (all of which take a lot of effort and time). I'm far from an economist, but to me, the time and effort required to achieve a Ph.D is much > than the return.

The question is, do people just continue with psych because they've dug themselves too deep and rather continue than starting again or do people enjoy it so much that they don't take into account that the return is much lower than the input?

I think most people, including myself, live their lives believing that if you put in a lot of hard work, such as in university, you expect a return. I'm not saying that a lot of hard work entitles someone to have an equivalent return but rather that why would people KNOWINGLY put in so much effort realizing that the outcome is pretty bleak?

Indeed, why would a rational person choose the longest and hardest path when there are shortcuts? (i.e. Masters)

If you enjoy your job, you never work a day in your life.

 

[cara susanna]

I don't really regret it. I can't think of anything else I'd rather be doing and that I'd be as good at.

 

[krisrox]

I regret it. That's why I'm considering getting out of it. If you don't enjoy it, get out. Seriously. It's not going to get better or easier.

 

[Dream1a]

Like i mentioned, there are people who genuinely enjoy their work and for them the compensation is not a huge factor. But, my question is more do you need a Ph.D to find a job that you enjoy?

 

[cara susanna]

For me, yes, because my true passion is research.

And if you don't mind my asking, krisrox, are your current feelings towards the field due to reasons aside from your advisor leaving? If so, I'd be curious to hear them.

 

[Dream1a]

For me, yes, because my true passion is research.

And if you don't mind my asking, krisrox, are your current feelings towards the field due to reasons aside from your advisor leaving? If so, I'd be curious to hear them.

Well, let's put research and academia aside as there are obvious reasons why one would get a Ph.D. I'm more interested in students who were more interested in being a "clinical psychologist", that is, either in private or public practice.

 

[Anon15]

I'm far from an economist, but to me, the time and effort required to achieve a Ph.D is much > than the return.

This depends on how you define the return. For each person the definition will be different. For me, it was a lot of a time and a lot of effort, but the return (i.e. the journey) and not the end salary was worth it. It is a marathon, not a sprint and if you're not a long distance runner, stick to shorter races (i.e. a different career path).

Indeed, why would a rational person choose the longest and hardest path when there are shortcuts or more secure alternatives? (i.e. Masters, MD)

If it weren't hard everybody would do it. Does that make us "irrational"? I hope not...

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Well, let's put research and academia aside as there are obvious reasons why one would get a Ph.D. I'm more interested in students who were more interested in being a "clinical psychologist", that is, either in private or public practice.

I'll give you academia, but honestly, I don't think you could (or should) "put research aside" when it comes to discussing a Ph.D. (or a Psy.D. for that matter). Some of the main plugs of a doctoral degree in clinical psychology are the added theoretical and research knowledge, skills and sophistication the programs impart.

If all someone is truly interested in is practicing therapy, then yes, there are better options available, and a doctorate might be overkill.

Also, if pay, or even economic ROI, were the only incentive/output for everyone, then hardly anyone would enter a doctoral program for ANY subject. Clinical psychologists actually have quite a bit of employment flexibility when compared with some of our colleagues in other disciplines.

 

[edieb]

No offense to Carasusana, but she is not even a fellow yet, so I would consider that when you read her advice. Clinical Psychology is not worth it. Any field where you spend 7 + years in school and then face the prospect of being unemployed or having to move to the middle of nowhere to get a job is crazy. To make $50K after killing yourself for all this time is not worth it. The prospects are dimming. Salaries are falling. More jobs are LCSW or Ph.D. Our scopes of practice are being violated.

You never see jobs that say M.D./D.O/or NP and you will never be without a job with an MD. And let's face it, psychiatrists make enough doing med checks that they can do therapy on the side if they so choose.


Don't fall prey to the concorde effect (the social psychological principle you mentioned).

 

[cara susanna]

I'm not really giving advice, just stating my opinion. I have other interests, but they would be either in fields where I don't have the necessary skills or where it's even more competitive, and with less returns, than psychology. If that's not true for you, cool, go do something else.

You can find pretty much the same discussion in other professions as well.

 

[Peanut2011]

I think one thing to consider is what = would you be doing if not psychology grad school/ psychologist/ psychotherapy. A friend of mind dropped out after G-2 year and she is in another totally different field and very happy. Another friend from a different psych grad program dropped out after MA = he went to med school, but went ortho... For me I like the psych clinical work. It's kind of like "darn if you do, darn if you don't..."

My training even at my crappy professional school CSPP - San Diego was Amazing! I love the field (clearly based on my other posts, the politics and complacency of other psychologists to accept the status quo is frustrating). Again for me if I went MD = it would be for psychiatry nothing else. So, I would ask yourself: 1) [other people have pointed this out it in your post as well = but, what else would you be doing?

~2) Is there a way to get your masters (at least for my friend [both of them actually], she/ him got a MA degree out of it). This way = at least it's not totally wasted time if you do leave.

3) If you are like me and you like the clinical part and working with patients at 90 percent = think hard; I do believe the opportunities are limited post grad for those who want to stick with clinical. Although, technically I am still in student status (resident) I am all but pretty much waiting for my license to post-- I would try to talk with others outside of the bubble of grad school if you can/ or those not in academia (talk with your advisor of course = but try to talk with others as well) -- that is, if you are not really interested in the research/ academia part (I bet psychologists that completely practice, that you can find-- who are not bank rolling themselves by training other psychologist-trainee's or by academia = will be hard to find, but look for them nonetheless and see what they say).

4) you are looking at a double edge sword. My PhD = finest accomplishment (hindsight 20/20 and being perfect maybe stopping at the MA level and going the MD route would have been ideal); but the trade off is = my psych skills are great (side note here - there's an audio skit where Kayne West is making fun of college = you can google it – how this person is talking about how awesome all their degrees are/ education and how "his" degrees keep him warm at night because he can't afford a blanket (but he's HAPPY)—you get the joke hopefully—(I feel like that could be me at times). But, honestly, I truly love the study of human behavior. Just be prepared for no-one else to care (including the available jobs/ job market outside of gov. systems)-- or only expect [to care] other psychologists/ other trainees that you may or may not be doing research with.

5) It's hard to have a realistic discussion about the field = psychologists will spin you up with how we don't make money (and we should love that), how we should give our time away, and devote our time to doing free peer reviews for articles is a must/ and so on. I just don't buy it. Also, the field is truly meant for you to be a jack of all trades unless you really-really specialize in something (understand general clinical = not much of a specialization) = and really only focus on that. When I was 26, I didn't care about money-- at 30 I do (people change = 5 years is a long time). When I was a G-1, I was mesmerized by all the "potential," of what a psychologist can do --but-- be warned the potential-- it's tricky = you're on your own with that (no-one's knocking down your door to hire a psychologist)= and for all your work = you will rarely be compensated appropriately (but if now you go OT and help someone move their arm around after a stroke = job recruiters will be knocking down your door and offering you 70k salaries the day after you graduate = strange world), so if you are NOT prepared to juggle allot of hats with minimal pay out (except intrinsically) or really, really specialize = you might be let down.

~*It's also tough (AND MY HEART GOES OUT TO YOU) because I mean at = let's say someone is at 4 YEARS and if someone is having doubts (personally) it's a tough call to drop out at that point. At least Complete the degree (fully)= then you can then go into something else (unless s you/ or someone else here is thinking they are going to be a G-9 = then if you having doubts at 4… RUN J. If you are at 3.5 or not quite into 4 = you can still be on the fence, and get out and cut your losses easily I would say.

~~~HOPE that helps Keep us posted!!!!

--Ben

 

[Peanut2011]

Complacency [ref. example below] = see -- to the "original poster" = read my advice twice (this is what I am talking about), good example of Complacency... which if you are like me, you will find frustrating! Jon, I love you buddy... hope you know that.

Doctoral level fields, in general, often don't have the biggest financial return. I agree, an unfunded PhD/PsyD is most likely a bad choice. I haven't felt like I've worked that hard "killing" myself for years for some payout. Life is a process, the point is not where you end up but how you get there. I'm not saying a psychology degree is all roses and supermodels but, if you like the topics, it's quite interesting. It has been a good journey for me. Is it competitive? Sure. Will I ever make 50K a year? I hope not. That would be most unfortunate. People's definition of "middle of nowhere" varies substantially.

Would I prefer to make multiple millions a year and live in a big city (my definition; some deranged folks call where I live a big city), whilst doing exactly the same job I currently do? Absolutely. Could I do that as an MD? Nope.

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

Now that i've completed my PhD, I would say that it seems less worth it with each passing year. In many fields, you work hard and you get some reward. In clinical psychology, like no other field i've seen, i would argue that it gets MORE difficult with time. After landing an internship, you breathe a sigh of relief, but then realize that its only the beginning in terms of encountering more barriers, competition, and insane state requirements. Its a never ending battle if you want to do clinical work. Many early career psychologists doing clinical work do not live comfortably and have to defer loans etc.

It was never easy to make a comfortable living out of clinical work, but the clinical field has really gone downhill the last 5 years even more in terms of starting salaries and job openings. Now its equivalent to trying to become an artist except you spent 6 years in graduate school. I don't even know anyone who is earning 60K as a new graduate and i know many. I would say that people in the clinical world are earning starting salaries between like 25K-40K on average if they are lucky to land something. This is equivalent to what Research Assistants are earning out of college. I also observed that many of my clients who either just graduated from college or never even went to college (but have work experience) are earning more money than the average clinical psychologist.

I would say that if you are just interested in clinical work, don't get a PhD/PsyD in clinical psychology. I would also encourage people to look into other fields before deciding on clinical psychology since there are many options that allow one to practice in a similar manner since psychotherapy is not regulated (such as NP, psychiatrist, MSW).

 

[MarshmallowsNOM]

This thread and everyone's comments are actually very interesting to me and cover a lot of the topics and questions I have been asking myself lately in my pursuit of a graduate education and career in psych.

Has anyone thought about or have any input on going for a clinical degree vs a non-clinical psych PhD?

I was drawn to the PhD degree because I am a research lover, but then got interested in the clinical aspects through the lab where I worked after UG, so decided to go for clinical even though I really just want to do research. But since I am interested in researching clinical topics (anxiety disorders), it seemed like the way to go. However, I am really questioning if this is the right path for me since I really would prefer to stick to research. I'm not 100% opposed to clinical work, but don't have the same passion for therapy as I do for research. I am currently trying to narrow down the programs I will be applying to in the Fall after being rejected by all Clinical PhD attempts last round.

Is anyone else in a similar position? Or maybe someone who was going for the clinical degree and then switched gears? Are those people more satisfied with their careers vs the amount of effort to get there (not having to do the extra internship year, hours/ exams for licenses, etc)?

Also, given these programs tend to be less competitive for admissions (not saying they are easy to get in to, just not as ridiculously hard as clinical), how do you decide to go clinical or not? Especially if your focus is going to be research either way?

 

[cara susanna]

I guess I went clinical because it's more flexible. Also, there are aspects to the research in it that I haven't found in experimental, aspects that I really like. My program is really flexible in letting you work with other faculty though, so I do research with non-clinical faculty that often falls much further into the area of social psych than clinical. I've found in those situations that my clinical training lets me bring things to the table that I may not be able to otherwise.

Don't get me wrong though, sometimes I wonder if I should have gone the experimental route as well. So I guess you have it guys, that would be my other career choice. Much better, huh?

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

I would say that i didn't know that the outlook was as bleak as it is when i applied to graduate school even know i did my research. The clinical field has become even more difficult to make a living in since the 2007 recession (which still continues) so things have changed since i made the decision to go into this field.

My contingency plan is to focus on consulting and assessments. I don't know how much therapy work i'll be able to do in the long-term. I may just do therapy once/week and then do some work that is more lucrative so that i can live comfortably.

 

[PsychPhDone]

I guess I am one of those research-types being "discounted" in this thread. I want to be a triple threat: research, teaching, clinical work, and so clinical is the right choice for me. I could have gone social or quant, and I did give some consideration to the clinical vs. non-clinical degree (a al MarshmallowsNOM). In the end, I am, at heart, a researcher, and to be credible as a researcher in a clinical area, I want to be a competent practitioner, or at least have the skills to be one.

I have been tempted to post something for a while because of the numerous posts from the unhappy people here. I don't want everyone reading these boards to think that grad school has to be awful, give you physical illnesses, and take away your social life. I *love* my program and I love what I do. I love statistics, colloquia, writing...and my friends and hobbies. Grad school has been hard work and time consuming, but I have truly enjoyed the vast majority of it so far. I hope it will get even better now that I am mostly done with coursework and can focus even moreso on research.

 

[PurpleShadow]

I am so confused. One psychologist that I saw said he made 100k/year because he worked for HMO. He also said that psychologists working in private practice are charging $100-$150 an hour. I just graduated from high school. I have a (fairly well off) friend who is still in high school and she sees a psychologist in private practice. The psychologist charges $100/hour and my friend goes to see her once a week.

 

[Psychology 76]

This thread and everyone's comments are actually very interesting to me and cover a lot of the topics and questions I have been asking myself lately in my pursuit of a graduate education and career in psych.

Has anyone thought about or have any input on going for a clinical degree vs a non-clinical psych PhD?

I was drawn to the PhD degree because I am a research lover, but then got interested in the clinical aspects through the lab where I worked after UG, so decided to go for clinical even though I really just want to do research. But since I am interested in researching clinical topics (anxiety disorders), it seemed like the way to go. However, I am really questioning if this is the right path for me since I really would prefer to stick to research. I'm not 100% opposed to clinical work, but don't have the same passion for therapy as I do for research. I am currently trying to narrow down the programs I will be applying to in the Fall after being rejected by all Clinical PhD attempts last round.

Is anyone else in a similar position? Or maybe someone who was going for the clinical degree and then switched gears? Are those people more satisfied with their careers vs the amount of effort to get there (not having to do the extra internship year, hours/ exams for licenses, etc)?

Also, given these programs tend to be less competitive for admissions (not saying they are easy to get in to, just not as ridiculously hard as clinical), how do you decide to go clinical or not? Especially if your focus is going to be research either way?

I can relate a great deal. I was interested in clinical psychology and research but realized i loved research so much that i didn't really want to waste time doing clinical work. plus, i keep hearing all these negative things about the clinical world it made my choice easy to pursue experimental psych phd programs

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

I have been tempted to post something for a while because of the numerous posts from the unhappy people here. I don't want everyone reading these boards to think that grad school has to be awful, give you physical illnesses, and take away your social life. I *love* my program and I love what I do. I love statistics, colloquia, writing...and my friends and hobbies. Grad school has been hard work and time consuming, but I have truly enjoyed the vast majority of it so far. I hope it will get even better now that I am mostly done with coursework and can focus even moreso on research.[/QUOTE]

Let me guess you haven't applied for internship, post-doc, licensure, or tried to obtain employment yet. This is when the reality really sets in. You are still shielded from this while in graduate school. I think its important for people to be aware of all the risks and since you haven't even gone through the internship stage yet you may not have a full appreciation for this yet to understand. Most of the people that I know loved the field while in graduate school and then began to slowly lose morale afterwards. Graduate school (aside from internship and dissertation) was the easiest time for me. Everyone is different though.

 

[Dream1a]

Don't get me wrong, I am passionate about psychology. It interests me a great deal, but i'm also a realistic person.

I'm not jumping over the moon to do pre-med, science definitely doesn't come naturally for me and I will have to work very hard to get good grades, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. Even if I do prefer psychology, sometimes you do things for the practicality of it.

Each time I ask my professor about how much psychologists make they are VERY vague, they always say that there's a potential to earn a great deal. But you know what, there's potential for actors, artists and musicians to earn a great deal, too. I'm not risking my one in a million or thousand chances on potential.

One of my psychology professor is around 48, he does teaching, he has a private practice and he does research on the side. Except his private practice is 6 hours away and he has to spend 2 days out of his week there. I don't know about you but this type of juggling cannot run on forever, it's alright when you're young but i dont want to have 3 'semi-temporary' jobs for the rest of my life, and he doesn't even make close to what the "average" psychiatrist makes.

I'm guessing that in the future, medication will start to become even more important than now. Coupled with the fact that there is a lack of psychiatrists, it makes sense to go to psychiatry.


It's all the more ridiculous that it is so competitive to get into clinical psychology and then after all that work, you get peanuts.

I don't want to devalue what any one has accomplished because it is certainly a great feat, but, to me, honestly, the risk is overwhelmingly greater than the reward.

What i'm more surprised about is that no one seems to mind that the salary is so low?

Why isn't a clinical psychologist's salary comparable to a psychiatrist's?

1st - clinical psychology is extremely hard to get into.
2nd - they can do a multitude of things (testing, research, teaching, private/public practice) that a psychiatrist usually doesn't do. Moreover, even a GP can prescribe medication.
3rd - the length is approximately the same

I realize that psychiatrists can see many more clients, but even then, the base salary should be similar..

 

[sydb1367]

No, I don’t regret it. But bear in mind, like many on here (save for Jon), I am not post licensure. Merely a lowly intern. But, this is the first job I have ever had where I actually look forward to going to work, stay late (out of choice), and seriously miss it when I am not there. Got really sick early on in my internship and missed a whole week (hazard of working in a hospital). I was climbing the walls, couldn’t wait to get back and see patients, and was calling my supervisor trying to convince her to let me come in despite my raging fever.


Re the oftentimes overwhelming pessimism about job prospects and compensation, I had not heard such views until reading this board. Most (if not all) the psychologists, colleagues (who are further on in their training or are ECP) I talk with have not expressed such feelings. Seems that the negative viewpoint comes (mostly) from those who want to do solely psychotherapy and w/o much specialization. I don’t get this. Why on earth would you pursue a PhD/PsyD if all you want to do is therapy?! It’s in some ways like (sorry, horrible analogy coming) going to med school and then working as a nurse, administering meds, etc. Doctoral education and training, IMO, is for those who wish to specialize and pursue more than just therapy, e.g. assessment, forensics, neuropsych, teaching, research (although these last two can be done with a Masters). In which case, the compensation is, on average, better than the 75k median salary touted on these boards. (which, while lower than one would hope, is hardly peanuts, imo).


Speaking of which, the 75k salary thing, I think is misleading. Salaries vary so much depending on setting, job duties, and geography (not just state to state, but city to city). It’s much more helpful to look at the median salaries with these specifics factored in. Some of it is there on the apa salary survey. For my interests, setting, geography, the median is 120k.



While, of course, attending a funded program would be preferable, I don’t agree with those who say going to professional schools is not (in all cases) an economically viable decision. For starters, shop around, not all programs cost 200k. Mine was ~80k. Also, just because you do go to a program that costs 200k, doesn’t mean you have to graduate with that kind of debt. A good friend of mine went to one such institution, and through grants, scholarships, paid practica, paid internship, and some initial savings, accumulated 50k in debt. (granted she is likely an outlier, but it’s do-able) Finally, check out the government site on loan repayment. Income based repayment means you pay 15% of your Adjusted Gross Income (which is less than actual income, following deductions) above the poverty level and your balance is forgiven after 25 years. Plug some numbers in their calculator, the payments seem quite reasonable. E.g. 150k debt, 75k salary, assuming agi of 65k, payments are $550 a month, about 10% of net income. Also, starting 2014 loans will be forgiven after 20 years and only require 10% of your AGI above poverty level, making the payment in the above example $400. Also, payments are no different if you have 150k or 250k debt. They cap at that (currently) 15%. Of course, keep in mind as you make more, you pay more.


In short, I wouldn’t trade what I am doing for anything. But then, talk to me in 5 years

 

[psychmama]

I'm not sure I regret it. I am someone who loves the clinical work, and I just couldn't bring myself to do an MSW or MA in counseling because I already had a law degree and would have felt this was an unacceptable compromise. I cannot think of anything I'd rather do all day than sit in a room talking to people about their problems. I love it. Almost without exception, even when it's hard and draining (maybe this is when I like it best). I also enjoy the roles of assessment and consultation.

BUT...this is a rough profession in some respects. I'm close to licensure, yet I'm still scrambling to find a good job making a decent salary. It is a little ridiculous when I think that I'll be lucky to find something making as much as I made 20+ years ago fresh out of law school at 25! Then again, law was a grind -- stressful and soul-robbing -- while psychology is a joy (at least most of the time).

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

Speaking of which, the 75k salary thing, I think is misleading. Salaries vary so much depending on setting, job duties, and geography (not just state to state, but city to city). It’s much more helpful to look at the median salaries with these specifics factored in. Some of it is there on the apa salary survey. For my interests, setting, geography, the median is 120k.

I wouldn't rely on the APA salary survey to be an accurate indicator either. It has only a 25% response rate and its only sent to APA members. Plus, the geographical salaries only have about 10 people responding, depending on the location so its not really a decent N size. Talk to people who just graduated and are on the job market and how much they make--they often have a realistic view point on what is going on right now.

People complain more on these posts because its anonymous. Your collegues are generally not going to complain about regretting the field or not making enough money in an employment setting because its not very appropriate.

 

[roubs]

Yaaaaay Doom & Gloom threads! (Can we call it a D&G?)

I would say that if you are just interested in clinical work, don't get a PhD/PsyD in clinical psychology.

- ^This is a really good point and I think it is the root of a lot of dissatisfaction in the field. There are way cheaper options to get to the clinical work outcome. If you take the most expensive unfunded Psy.D. and just want to be a therapist you are for sure going to be pissed when you realize all the ramifications of that decision. Unfortunately these unfunded programs are great at making a sales pitch that neglects to point out critical information

No offense to Carasusana, but she is not even a fellow yet, so I would consider that when you read her advice.

- I can't speak for cara susana but I don't think its fair to discount opinions from those of us still in school. Some of us have been wandering around this board through many many rounds of doom & gloom threads and entered into our programs as aware as we could be of the endless hoops. I will grant you that there were 1st years in my program who thought a $100k job would be handed to them right after internship. I feel for those people, but don't they own some of the responsibility for their incorrect expectations? I can recall trying to set one of these people straight 1st yr fall term and having her just stare back at me with blank "you will not break through my idealized future" eyes.

- I completed the pre-med track and a psych major; it was indeed a tough decision which way to go. In the end I came down on the side of increased flexibility, lower salary, and less time spent learning things I had no interest in(aka 3 years 9 months of med school). I don't regret the decision and don't believe I will.

 

[sydb1367]

I wouldn't rely on the APA salary survey to be an accurate indicator either. It has only a 25% response rate and its only sent to APA members. Plus, the geographical salaries only have about 10 people responding, depending on the location so its not really a decent N size. Talk to people who just graduated and are on the job market and how much they make--they often have a realistic view point on what is going on right now.

Agreed. The citing of 120k median salary for my interests was based on a different survey, restricted to npsychs. I'd wager it is a more accurate picture than the apa's survey.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

One thing I'll mention that's somewhat ironic/amusing--I don't know whether it's true or not, but I've read posts from a few members on the psychiatry board that say the opposite of what's being mentioned here (i.e., that they see the system, or at least their field, moving/hoping to move away from strictly medication management and more toward a balanced-provider model).

Again, whether or not it's actually true, I have no idea. But it's always interesting to see these same themes popping up regardless of the profession (check out the pharmacy forums and you'll see probably dozens of threads from individuals warning new students not to go that route for many of the same reasons mentioned here).

 

[Dream1a]

One thing I'll mention that's somewhat ironic/amusing--I don't know whether it's true or not, but I've read posts from a few members on the psychiatry board that say the opposite of what's being mentioned here (i.e., that they see the system, or at least their field, moving/hoping to move away from strictly medication management and more toward a balanced-provider model).

Again, whether or not it's actually true, I have no idea. But it's always interesting to see these same themes popping up regardless of the profession (check out the pharmacy forums and you'll see probably dozens of threads from individuals warning new students not to go that route for many of the same reasons mentioned here).

I highly doubt that will happen, it will encroach on psychologist's reins even more and medication is seen as a cheaper, practical alternative (according to the government / insurance companies ) for mental illness.

 

[roubs]

One thing I'll mention that's somewhat ironic/amusing--I don't know whether it's true or not, but I've read posts from a few members on the psychiatry board that say the opposite of what's being mentioned here (i.e., that they see the system, or at least their field, moving/hoping to move away from strictly medication management and more toward a balanced-provider model).

Again, whether or not it's actually true, I have no idea. But it's always interesting to see these same themes popping up regardless of the profession (check out the pharmacy forums and you'll see probably dozens of threads from individuals warning new students not to go that route for many of the same reasons mentioned here).

That is funny. If they put something in place with the right incentives I could see it happening, but without them I think most in their field are going to continue to follow the money given that they see themselves as among the most underpaid MDs out there. In the "medical home" model that tries to get away from fee for service I could see psychiatrists going for a more balanced approach.

Also to clarify from my last post, I do realize that there are serious drawbacks to this degree but I'm fairly certain I made the right decision for me. I'm probably one of those people that the OP mentioned rates salary as less important, I like spending money on experiences and less on things. If I can get together and do fun stuff on the weekends with my family/friends then my QOL is sky high. As far as buying physical "stuff" is concerned my mom passed a crazy un-American sense of frugality on to me..and I thank her for that

 

[Dream1a]

Doom and gloom, eh, I am having a good time. I've seriously liked everywhere I've been. Graduate school
Was the most difficult part of the process for me, transition from undergrad who got by on getting As on every test I took to graduate student that needs to learn how to network and not be so introverted in a professional environment. This field has been really cool. I've met interesting people (patients and faculty). I get to help people, talk about all sorts of abstract philosophical models from religion to theory of mind, travel all over the world, collaborate on International projects, publish papers, edit journals, debate with people I once only knew as the man or women that wrote -insert cool book- here, and I get paid good money to do it. I mean, seriously, how cool is it to be invited to speak at a great university in new York or London, wherever, and they pay you to do it and then hang out and shoot the **** with some of the smartest people you'll where meet?

This sounds exciting but is more relevant to academia..

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I highly doubt that will happen, it will encroach on psychologist's reins even more and medication is seen as a cheaper, practical alternative (according to the government / insurance companies ) for mental illness.

I don't know that it would encroach on psychologists' domains, as psychiatrists have been doing therapy for quite some time now . I do agree, though, that the change won't occur unless someone (us?) can begin to show insurance companies the potential cost-related benefits of psychotherapy vs. medication.

 

[Dream1a]

Sure, it's part of academia. But, it's also mixed in with clinical work. It all is kind of seamless (e.g., helping a group in Korea start a neuropsych program). That's a clinical goal. But, you can build an equally exciting career doing mostly clinical work in academia, or even out of it. Especially, in my opinion, if you specialize. For example, become the expert on the impact of lead on developmental disorders and they might fly you out to exotic places to do forensic cases. Start centers for specific things (e.g., learning disabilities, or neurodegerative disorders with early psychiatric components [Huntington's]). I see just running a clinic, seeing patients, and not really doing anything else with it as a bit of a waste. Kind of boring. I'd be mailing it in in that situation.

My interest is forensics. And i know technically that forensic psychiatrists are losing ground due to their lack of objective testing, but as I told my forensic psychologist professor, even if they are losing ground, if I were a psychiatrist, I would have a second income not relying solely on forensics. With forensic cases being few and far between for a forensic psychologist, it's hard to fill the downtime.

No one is denying that a psychologist is a jack of all trades, and this is what makes the job interesting because it doesn't become mundane. But I think there is a downside with that because there is hardly any security and is based on who you know and how well you market yourself.

 

[Dream1a]

What career isn't?

well, let's say it's more insecure than many other careers.

 

[sydb1367]

It may be more so than being a physician. But, I'm not sure about "many".

this.
We're in a recession folks, unemployment is high, jobs are not secure. Do you really think psychology is that much worse than most fields?

 

[Dream1a]

this.
We're in a recession folks, unemployment is high, jobs are not secure. Do you really think psychology is that much worse than most fields?

Not necessarily, but even if a job is secure, psychologists are getting squat. It's one thing to have a risky but high paying job, like for example a lawyer. But this doesn't seem to work for psychology.

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

Not necessarily, but even if a job is secure, psychologists are getting squat. It's one thing to have a risky but high paying job, like for example a lawyer. But this doesn't seem to work for psychology.

Sure it is tough out there, but i am pretty confident that psychologists have it way worse than most professions that require a graduate degree! I know many lawyers, and they made 165K out of graduate school (they went to a good school). All my friends who went to medical school are doing amazing, not just okay. I don't know of another profession that requires a graduate degree and is as competitive as ours for a starting salary of 30K in the clinical area (maybe just humanities PhD's but everyone knows that this degree is impractical). Lawyers are not taking jobs for 30K. There was an article about how they are taking jobs now for 60K if they want to be in the non-partner track and work decent hours, but 60K starting would be amazing for a psychologist. I would be happy to start with 60K. The problem is that our starting salaries are often minimum wage if you factor in the amount of hours people are working.

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

I also don't know of another profession that requires a graduate degree that has 200 applicants for 2 positions on average like our internship process and that only pays 25,000.

There is no doubt that nurses, lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, MBA's are doing much better.

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

Psychologists should be more outraged about the salaries that they have compared to other professions with less training. I've seen too many psychologists who are okay with lowering their fees or charging as much as social workers ($80 in private practice). We should be charging more $ because we are experts and have more training than a typical physician. Physicians are okay with charging their patients $400 for a 15 minute visit where they just examine you. We offer a service that is at least as valuable and we spent a signfiicant amount longer with each of our patients--both emotionally and in terms of time spent so we should be compensated as such. People on this forum are too understanding about our lower salaries and this only perpetuates the problem.

There are also too many psychologists who are willing to take low paying positions that advertise for like 25K. This is really sad.

 

[Dream1a]

Psychologists should be more outraged about the salaries that they have compared to other professions with less training. I've seen too many psychologists who are okay with lowering their fees or charging as much as social workers ($80 in private practice). We should be charging more $ because we are experts and have more training than a typical physician. Physicians are okay with charging their patients $400 for a 15 minute visit where they just examine you. We offer a service that is at least as valuable and we spent a signfiicant amount longer with each of our patients--both emotionally and in terms of time spent so we should be compensated as such. People on this forum are too understanding about our lower salaries and this only perpetuates the problem.

There are also too many psychologists who are willing to take low paying positions that advertise for like 25K. This is really sad.

this is exactly what I was thinking - why aren't psychologists outraged at their pay? Even if you enjoy what you do, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be compensated for it!

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

Psychologists as a whole are too accepting and understanding of many of these issues....maybe its because we teach our clients about acceptance? I don't think this is the type of thing that we should accept or be understanding about. We should be much less accepting of other professions and protect psychotherapy and assessment much like physicians lobbied against our ability to get prescription rights. Psychologists should be more confident about their areas of expertise and fight to protect them from all the other professions that are poorly trained.

I noticed that many people in graduate school wanted to ignore the whole salary/employment issue and pretend that it didn't exist because it was the only way they could get by in the program (some denial is healthy i guess but to a certain extent).

 

[Dream1a]

Psychologists as a whole are too accepting and understanding of many of these issues....maybe its because we teach our clients about acceptance? I don't think this is the type of thing that we should accept or be understanding about. We should be much less accepting of other professions and protect psychotherapy and assessment much like physicians lobbied against our ability to get prescription rights. Psychologists should be more confident about their areas of expertise and fight to protect them from all the other professions that are poorly trained.

I noticed that many people in graduate school wanted to ignore the whole salary/employment issue and pretend that it didn't exist because it was the only way they could get by in the program (some denial is healthy i guess but to a certain extent).

It is understandable why there is a shortage of males in clinical psychology now

 

[roubs]

FYI lawyers are not "doing great", those who aren't at top 20 schools are struggling as much if not more than we are...my friend who manages a Starbucks employs some of them. Imagine if only the top 20 psych programs graduated people who were having good luck getting jobs in the field?

Dream1a, just 8 days ago you first posted about looking at a Ph.D. program. Has your "jaded" factor shot up in that time or did you feel this way before posting here?

Psychologists as a whole are too accepting and understanding of many of these issues....maybe its because we teach our clients about acceptance? I don't think this is the type of thing that we should accept or be understanding about. We should be much less accepting of other professions and protect psychotherapy and assessment much like physicians lobbied against our ability to get prescription rights. Psychologists should be more confident about their areas of expertise and fight to protect them from all the other professions that are poorly trained.

A big chunk of the problem is due to market forces. Are you saying our profession might somehow escape the rules of capitalism? How exactly do you propose we "be much less accepting of other professions" ? We are eyeing more Psychiatrist turf having already usurped psychotherapy from them, is there some realistic process by which you think we can elbow out social workers/master's level? Many states have moved/are moving to require a doctoral degree to call yourself a psychologist, but the for-profit programs just swoop in and are now oversupplying doctoral level folks instead of oversupplying master's level. I know I'm on the verge of bringing Psy.D/Ph.D. issues into the thread but that problem is one that the APA can do much more about (will they? not holding my breath.) given their role in accreditation.

 

[roubs]

25 k can't be considered starting pay for a psychologist. That's internship. It is disingenuous to compare that to your physician friends that are done with residency. Finish postdoc/licensure. That's your starting salary.

Btw, the average lawyer makes about what the average psychologist does.

I worked with MDs in fellowship who were making 45k/yr. They've had a MD for 3-4 years at that point. Salaries tend to suck for them too until training is 100% complete.

 

[Dream1a]

Dream1a, just 8 days ago you first posted about looking at a Ph.D. program. Has your "jaded" factor shot up in that time or did you feel this way before posting here?
QUOTE]

Well, i was deciding whether on not to become a psychiatrist or psychologist.

Psychology would be the easiest route (as in i continue with what i'm doing now). But after reading other's opinions from those who already have their Ph.Ds and are regretting it, my worst fears were confirmed. I REALLY didn't want it to be true as it was something that I was planning on doing, but I like cold hard facts and not what could be.

On top of that my research interests don't really seem to be widespread, so that really doesn't help.

I don't consider myself jaded but rather realistic. I want to be 1000% sure before I make my decision that i know the state of the situation. Like others have mentioned, a lot of people go into grad school thinking that it will work out or avoid the question of pay. But i'm not going to make that mistake. I'd rather be informed about the harsh truth than finding out 7 years later.

I'm not chasing money, but if i'm going to be spending the next 7-8 years of my life doing something, i sure as hell want to see a sizeable compensation.

 

[edieb]

25 k can't be considered starting pay for a psychologist. That's internship. It is disingenuous to compare that to your physician friends that are done with residency. Finish postdoc/licensure. That's your starting salary.

Btw, the average lawyer makes about what the average psychologist does.

Are you that out of touch to not realize that most (99 percent) of internships pay only 18K??

 

[Dream1a]

Btw, the average lawyer makes about what the average psychologist does.

Maybe the average lawyer makes what the average psychologist does.

But the upper limits of a lawyer's salary basically are endless, as well as a physician (granted they have special training etc) . The highest salary a psychologist could ever get is probably head of department or president of a university.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Maybe the average lawyer makes what the average psychologist does.

But the upper limits of a lawyer's salary basically are endless, as well as a physician (granted they have special training etc) . The highest salary a psychologist could ever get is probably head of department or president of a university.

Big money is in the private sector. It is easier to be a mediocre/crap physician and make $150-$200k, and a lawyer who hustles can make similar money in the right types of law. Psychologists suffer from a large subset of people who work quasi-fulltime, part-time, and/or people willing to work for mid-level pay.

 

[psychmama]

Are you that out of touch to not realize that most (99 percent) of internships pay only 18K??

This is highly variable. I'd say that in the NYC area at least 18k is on the low end for APA accredited internships.

 

[edieb]

This is highly variable. I'd say that in the NYC area at least 18k is on the low end for APA accredited internships.

NYC is only one place. Only prisons, miltary internships and a few others pay >18750. Some actually pay much less