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Applying both MD/PhD and MD: Cardinal sin for interviews?
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Some programs will see your choice for both MD/PhD and MD programs, some programs would not care. I suggest to have a wider number of applications to MD/PhD programs than applying for both MD/PhD and MD programs at highly competitive schools. Some of these dual applications to both programs are managed differently than just MD or MD/PhD.
This is a question that you ask to the program coordinator, not the program director.
This is a question that you ask to the program coordinator, not the program director.
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Every year this question gets asked, often multiple times. Most of the time it's asked by someone who is very well qualified and has no need to apply to MD as a backup. Occasionally someone is asking who is an poor candidate for medical school due to their stats. It's pretty rare that someone is borderline and actually should consider dual applying.
So to me the real question that needs to be addressed is whether you should actually be considering this.
So to me the real question that needs to be addressed is whether you should actually be considering this.
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@Neuronix, my apologies, I did search for threads like this but I suppose I did not search hard enough. I blame my MCAT-destroyed brain. Thanks for your help (to you and @Fencer).
I think I am a very competitive applicant all things aside, BUT my MCAT score is still a big question mark -- I take the new exam on Friday. I was thinking of possibly applying to one school MD-only on June 1st, then waiting to get my scores (June 30th) before I decide whether I should apply to more MD-only schools or just MD/PhD. I guess I'm worried that even with a good application, I might not get into a good program if I don't absolutely kill my MCAT. I'm hoping to do that, but who knows.
This is all complicated by the fact that for my field (public health), there are very few programs available and it's almost not worth it to do the PhD if I don't get into a program with a strong international presence and public health school (e.g., all of the top schools). It would potentially be better for me to do an MD at a school with an amazing public health school and emphasis on research than an MD/PhD at a school with a weak public health school and few people researching in my field.
I think I am a very competitive applicant all things aside, BUT my MCAT score is still a big question mark -- I take the new exam on Friday. I was thinking of possibly applying to one school MD-only on June 1st, then waiting to get my scores (June 30th) before I decide whether I should apply to more MD-only schools or just MD/PhD. I guess I'm worried that even with a good application, I might not get into a good program if I don't absolutely kill my MCAT. I'm hoping to do that, but who knows.
This is all complicated by the fact that for my field (public health), there are very few programs available and it's almost not worth it to do the PhD if I don't get into a program with a strong international presence and public health school (e.g., all of the top schools). It would potentially be better for me to do an MD at a school with an amazing public health school and emphasis on research than an MD/PhD at a school with a weak public health school and few people researching in my field.
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No need to apologize. I'm glad you clarified.
I think the idea of applying to just one school on June 1st is a good one. Make it an MD/PhD program so you have all of the MD/PhD application materials ready. If you don't get the MCAT score you wanted, then come back and talk to us about how bad it is. If it's great, add a bunch of MD/PhD programs. As long as the scores come back by August and you get your secondaries in promptly (i.e. August or sooner), you should be fine from an MD or MD/PhD perspective. That's not early, but that's not late either.
The dual application thing is more of an issue for MD/PhD programs who think you might drop the PhD. MD programs don't care as much assuming your clinical experience/volunteering is up to snuff and you don't act like you're 100% devoted to research at the possible expense of patient care. If you don't get the MCAT score you want and go back to MD only with only the one MD/PhD program applied to, I don't think it will hurt you.
I think the idea of applying to just one school on June 1st is a good one. Make it an MD/PhD program so you have all of the MD/PhD application materials ready. If you don't get the MCAT score you wanted, then come back and talk to us about how bad it is. If it's great, add a bunch of MD/PhD programs. As long as the scores come back by August and you get your secondaries in promptly (i.e. August or sooner), you should be fine from an MD or MD/PhD perspective. That's not early, but that's not late either.
The dual application thing is more of an issue for MD/PhD programs who think you might drop the PhD. MD programs don't care as much assuming your clinical experience/volunteering is up to snuff and you don't act like you're 100% devoted to research at the possible expense of patient care. If you don't get the MCAT score you want and go back to MD only with only the one MD/PhD program applied to, I don't think it will hurt you.
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@Neuronix, thanks, I will do that. I probably won't submit to one school until the middle of June if it's MD/PhD, since I don't have those essays done yet (and would like to work on them longer than one week). But I should know my preliminary MCAT score by the end of June, so hopefully it will be OK enough to move forward in the context of my overall application. I'll post here again once I know. Thank you for your help.
If you want more time to work on MD/PhD essays, do just submit one application to an MD program you have in mind when AMCAS opens. When you decide to add a second school, after you get your mcat back or whenever, if you try to add an MD/PhD program as your second school, AMCAS will ask you to write MD/PhD essays for the first time at that point.
You can also change the program designation from MD to MD/PhD for the first school whenever you want, and AMCAS will just ask you for MD/PhD essays at that point.
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If I'm the interviewer, I can't think of a good answer to the question of why someone would apply to both MD and MD/PhD. I used to interview on the MD-only side, and if you told me "I don't really care whether I get the PhD or not", I'd throw your application in the circular file. You need to make up your mind what you want.
Are you telling me there aren't enough PhD programs for your niche area of research? Because I don't believe it. If that is truly the case, you need to increase your flexibility both now and in the future.
On the MD/PhD side, if I think you are a borderline applicant, I might buy that you're applying MD-only to your backup state schools only. But that would be if you're truly a borderline applicant, and I don't know your stats.
Are you telling me there aren't enough PhD programs for your niche area of research? Because I don't believe it. If that is truly the case, you need to increase your flexibility both now and in the future.
On the MD/PhD side, if I think you are a borderline applicant, I might buy that you're applying MD-only to your backup state schools only. But that would be if you're truly a borderline applicant, and I don't know your stats.
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What if you're an international student and you apply md-phd at the few programs that (actually) accept internationals, but go MD-only at 5-10 programs that don't (but have strong research in your interested field). Is that an understandable response?
Also, how exactly do md-phd programs find out that you applied md-only to some schools? Or do they just ask you point blank? Thanks for any help!
Also, how exactly do md-phd programs find out that you applied md-only to some schools? Or do they just ask you point blank? Thanks for any help!
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I can see that being a good answer on the MD/PhD side, but whats a good response to your MD back up programs on why you're applying to MD/PhD programs?
Most schools are probably going to know, right?
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Take my opinions with a huge grain of salt. First off, they're just my opinions. Opinions on these topics vary widely. Second, I'm not even involved in admissions anymore. I'm sure there are people out there who think like I do on interviewing, but they're in the minority.
I would put you in the borderline category and accept that.
They ask. Otherwise they don't know. Some MD/PhD adcoms ask everyone as a matter of course if you're only applying MD/PhD as a screening question. Some only ask in special circumstances. Some never ask.
If I were the interviewer, I'd ask you straightaway why you have so much research and why you're not applying MD/PhD. It's up to you how you want to BS that one. I'd accept things like "I've had enough of basic science" or "I don't want a majority basic research career". Somehow, everyone I interviewed would try something diplomatic like "I want to keep my options open". You already know how I personally feel about that answer. To me, you do something for years because you're interested and passionate about it. If you're interested and passionate about research, you'll want to keep that going and have a clear pathway to a goal that involves research in your career, even if you change your mind later. You need that kind of passion and drive to accomplish things. To a lot of people, research is just something they do because they think it looks good to medical school or residency. I don't like that and I screen for it. But, that is just my opinion.
No, they don't get to know where else you applied. If you have a research heavy application, it'll be on their minds though. If you can lie your way through the interview and say "I've done enough research now to know it's not what I'd want for a career and I now want to be the best physician I can be", I'd accept that. You'd need a decent clinical application to back that up.
I would put you in the borderline category and accept that.
They ask. Otherwise they don't know. Some MD/PhD adcoms ask everyone as a matter of course if you're only applying MD/PhD as a screening question. Some only ask in special circumstances. Some never ask.
If I were the interviewer, I'd ask you straightaway why you have so much research and why you're not applying MD/PhD. It's up to you how you want to BS that one. I'd accept things like "I've had enough of basic science" or "I don't want a majority basic research career". Somehow, everyone I interviewed would try something diplomatic like "I want to keep my options open". You already know how I personally feel about that answer. To me, you do something for years because you're interested and passionate about it. If you're interested and passionate about research, you'll want to keep that going and have a clear pathway to a goal that involves research in your career, even if you change your mind later. You need that kind of passion and drive to accomplish things. To a lot of people, research is just something they do because they think it looks good to medical school or residency. I don't like that and I screen for it. But, that is just my opinion.
No, they don't get to know where else you applied. If you have a research heavy application, it'll be on their minds though. If you can lie your way through the interview and say "I've done enough research now to know it's not what I'd want for a career and I now want to be the best physician I can be", I'd accept that. You'd need a decent clinical application to back that up.
They don't get to know? I thought they'd know at the end of the application cycle. Do they not get to know what kind of program you applied to, though?
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If you are holding multiple acceptances after the deadline, those schools get to know where else you are holding acceptances. They don't automatically find out where else you applied.
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So then what would you recommend telling your MD back up schools when they ask about MD/PhD programs during the interview?
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I don't recommend applying to MD as a backup except in very limited circumstances.
In your case, unless there's something we don't know about, you applied with 6 months of research experience. This year you will apply with 1.5 years of research experience, while continuing in the lab. You have otherwise strong stats. Apply to 15+ MD/PhD programs with a range of tiers and you should get in this time. You could ignore this advice and apply MD as a backup anyway. The explanation would be "since I didn't get into MD/PhD last year, I want to at least become a doctor and pursue research with an MD.". It's not great, especially at backup medical school that probably won't have a research focus, but I don't know what else to tell you. At least it's honest.
In your case, unless there's something we don't know about, you applied with 6 months of research experience. This year you will apply with 1.5 years of research experience, while continuing in the lab. You have otherwise strong stats. Apply to 15+ MD/PhD programs with a range of tiers and you should get in this time. You could ignore this advice and apply MD as a backup anyway. The explanation would be "since I didn't get into MD/PhD last year, I want to at least become a doctor and pursue research with an MD.". It's not great, especially at backup medical school that probably won't have a research focus, but I don't know what else to tell you. At least it's honest.
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Do you really think that I am competitive enough for an MD/PhD program that if I apply to ~20 of them and I don't mess up the interviews that I should get in?
My application is pretty average besides my stats. I have ~100 hours clinical volunteering, will have ~140 hours of shadowing, ~150 hours of volunteering non-clinical, and in a few clubs.
Everyone else on this site that is applying to MD/PhD programs seems to have published 1-2 papers and invented a laser that could cure cancer in their spare time while they were volunteering to help starving kids in Africa. I am just worried about not getting in this time, and I don't want to have to take a 2nd gap year.
My application is pretty average besides my stats. I have ~100 hours clinical volunteering, will have ~140 hours of shadowing, ~150 hours of volunteering non-clinical, and in a few clubs.
Everyone else on this site that is applying to MD/PhD programs seems to have published 1-2 papers and invented a laser that could cure cancer in their spare time while they were volunteering to help starving kids in Africa. I am just worried about not getting in this time, and I don't want to have to take a 2nd gap year.
This forum to some degree self-selects for gunners and slightly neurotic applicants. I wouldn't worry about the pubs (@Neuronix seems to be making that a huge point recently), and you have a good amount of volunteering even if it wasn't all curing Ebola. The biggest thing is that you are following up with additional research experience. That and your interviews will show that you are passionate about pursuing MD/PhD.
If it helps, I am applying to 19 schools with nowhere near your volunteering or shadowing, and I trust that it will be enough.
If it helps, I am applying to 19 schools with nowhere near your volunteering or shadowing, and I trust that it will be enough.
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Hi @Neuronix,
As promised, I'm back with my MCAT percentiles. I got preliminary scores of 90-100th percentile overall, with 85-100th percentile in all sections. I will know my actual score/exact percentile on June 30th, but I figure this is good enough to go off of in deciding whether to apply to MD programs.
My other stats are: 3.96 cGPA / 4.0 BCPM at top-5 undergrad, 4 years of public health research (mainly during the summers, but with data analysis continuing into the academic year), some bench research early-on (before I realized my passion for public health research), 1 lowish-impact publication (4th author), 1 presentation at international conference (with published abstract in medium to high-impact journal, 1st author), 1 submitted manuscript as of last week (1st author), very strong letters across the board, strong ECs/volunteering, global health and independent research experience, and a prestigious national research fellowship in public health for next year.
Given my desire to matriculate into a public health/clinical translational MD/PhD and my school list, would you say that I am a strong enough applicant to just apply MD/PhD? I know that for a regular MD/PhD I would get into a program, but from what I can tell each MD/PhD class has only 1-2 public health/social science PhDs per year, so I imagine that getting in is less predictable. This is compounded by the fact that my school list is very top-heavy; most of the top public health schools are located at top medical schools, and the PhD in public health (e.g. Epi) is only really worth it at a solid public health school with researchers in my field. I can't afford to take another gap year. My list as of now:
Harvard
Johns Hopkins
Columbia
Yale
Penn
UNC Chapel Hill
University of Washington
University of Michigan
Emory
UCSD
U Chicago
U Pittsburgh
Albert Einstein
UT San Antonio
Planning to have primary app submitted by Monday.
As promised, I'm back with my MCAT percentiles. I got preliminary scores of 90-100th percentile overall, with 85-100th percentile in all sections. I will know my actual score/exact percentile on June 30th, but I figure this is good enough to go off of in deciding whether to apply to MD programs.
My other stats are: 3.96 cGPA / 4.0 BCPM at top-5 undergrad, 4 years of public health research (mainly during the summers, but with data analysis continuing into the academic year), some bench research early-on (before I realized my passion for public health research), 1 lowish-impact publication (4th author), 1 presentation at international conference (with published abstract in medium to high-impact journal, 1st author), 1 submitted manuscript as of last week (1st author), very strong letters across the board, strong ECs/volunteering, global health and independent research experience, and a prestigious national research fellowship in public health for next year.
Given my desire to matriculate into a public health/clinical translational MD/PhD and my school list, would you say that I am a strong enough applicant to just apply MD/PhD? I know that for a regular MD/PhD I would get into a program, but from what I can tell each MD/PhD class has only 1-2 public health/social science PhDs per year, so I imagine that getting in is less predictable. This is compounded by the fact that my school list is very top-heavy; most of the top public health schools are located at top medical schools, and the PhD in public health (e.g. Epi) is only really worth it at a solid public health school with researchers in my field. I can't afford to take another gap year. My list as of now:
Harvard
Johns Hopkins
Columbia
Yale
Penn
UNC Chapel Hill
University of Washington
University of Michigan
Emory
UCSD
U Chicago
U Pittsburgh
Albert Einstein
UT San Antonio
Planning to have primary app submitted by Monday.
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If I use this for conversion:http://colincapital.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/pre-2015-mcat-scores-vs-2015-mcat-scores.html?m=1
We can roughly estimate at least a 33. Social science MD/PhDs are rare but you are among the most qualified there are--high GPA, high (?) MCAT, extensive experience. If you can't do it, who can? Hard to know whether to advise you to apply MD-only as a backup. I'd say no, but I don't think it'd be wrong to do so given the few MD/PhD programs there are that support social science PhDs. You do have a nice list of MD/PhD programs with a range of tiers.
We can roughly estimate at least a 33. Social science MD/PhDs are rare but you are among the most qualified there are--high GPA, high (?) MCAT, extensive experience. If you can't do it, who can? Hard to know whether to advise you to apply MD-only as a backup. I'd say no, but I don't think it'd be wrong to do so given the few MD/PhD programs there are that support social science PhDs. You do have a nice list of MD/PhD programs with a range of tiers.
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Thanks for your advice. I think I will chance it, at least for now. If I get my score back and it's on the lower end I'll add some MD schools in right when my app gets verified.
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@Neuronix -- one more question. I have come across a few programs with internal MD/PhD admissions. For example, at Brown only current medical students can apply to the MD/PhD program, and they offer a PhD in Epidemiology. If I apply to these programs MD-only, will adcoms still consider it an MD-only application, even if I explain that I applied with the intention of going through the internal MD/PhD application process?
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You could. You're probably going to end up paying for half or all of med school in such a program. I wouldn't even consider MD/PhD if it isn't fully funded, but that's just me.
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One is actually still MSTP-funded, where internal admission is only for social science PhDs. But yes of course I'd prefer funded. I just want to cover all my bases since I have fewer options with the public health PhD. At the same time I want to be sure it wouldn't hurt me to apply MD for this reason as it would to apply as a backup.
