Applying for aways

[ru4real1666]

I have a good idea what aways I want to apply for and I want to apply in mid-march after I have gotten all my immunization titres/etc. My question is regarding this scenario:

Say I want to apply for three aways anytime during July-October.

1. Do I apply to just those three programs?
2. If I apply to just those three, I know some aways don't get back to you until 2-3 weeks before the rotation is supposed to start so what do you do if two of the aways give you the same month?
3. Would canceling on one negatively impact my prospect for interviewing these as long as I cancel with respect and as early as I possibly can?
4. How does rescheduling work? Taking #3 above, if I canceled for a program, is it easy to ask them/schedule for another month that might work better?

Sorry for all the questions and I hope someone can answer them!

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[massmocha]

I had a similar concern, I had 3 months I wanted to rotate and applied to the east coast programs I wanted to rotate at and "backup" west coast programs I didn't mind canceling. As it turned out I got all 6 and had to cancel the 3 backups... needless to say I was not offered an interview at any of those programs.

As far as applying, I would recommend applying for the month you want and then apply for multiple rotations (e.g. trauma with backup of hand, joints, sports, etc.). To be honest, if you get everything submitted early and meet all the criteria, and give the coordinator a call to make sure everything is received, you shouldn't have trouble getting the ones you want.

 

[ru4real1666]

Thanks so much @massmocha! I guess I better get those titres ASAP. I presume applying by end of February will be early enough (though some programs have already starting accepting applications starting Feb 1st). I look forward to hearing from anyone else with similar experiences so both I and other applicants can learn from this process!

 

[Tripl3crown]

Applied to a program in my neighboring state... A place where I did college nearby. One of the attendings who knew me and is really close with my program director said I was extremely competitive and should come down. Long story short, I ended up getting an acceptance from a big name in my home state and canceled this rotation about 5 months in advance because they gave me the month I designated for the program in my state vs the month I wanted...come interview season I got a quick rejection.
I used to not believe it but I do think canceling aways will screw you with that program. I applied for three aways and got all three I wanted just not the months I wanted so I wouldn't go crazy with applying for multiple aways

 

[PanzerTank00]

Or it could be totally possible that said "big name" program would have rejected you anyways. Did you get a lot of other invites from "big name" programs? If so, then maybe you're right. If not, then it probably has more to do with the relative strength of your application than anything else.

I ask these questions because I don't necessarily believe that cancelling an away, especially when done WAY in advance, has bearing on your admissions status for later. I mean, it's a secretary handling it, not the chair of the resident selection committee. I suppose it's possible that they keep a list but it doesn't mean that they necessarily have to.

What would screw you is cancelling an away with minimal short notice. Then, they will remember you no question.

 

[4thQTHailMary]

In my experience there aren't too many places that are extremely tough to get an away/deny people. Carolinas is one that I know of.

Conversely, I've heard numerous ppl cancel aways ultimately to get rejected come view season. Be very judicious in where and how many places you apply to.

 

[orthojuniorfaculty]

Or it could be totally possible that said "big name" program would have rejected you anyways. Did you get a lot of other invites from "big name" programs? If so, then maybe you're right. If not, then it probably has more to do with the relative strength of your application than anything else.

I ask these questions because I don't necessarily believe that cancelling an away, especially when done WAY in advance, has bearing on your admissions status for later. I mean, it's a secretary handling it, not the chair of the resident selection committee. I suppose it's possible that they keep a list but it doesn't mean that they necessarily have to.

What would screw you is cancelling an away with minimal short notice. Then, they will remember you no question.

The 'secretaries' who process away applications are often-if-not-always otherwise known as the program manager, assistant program manager, or program coordinator for the residency you are applying for. They generally run the residency day-to-day, more so than program directors who are also busy clinicians. My bet is, they may remind PDs of applicants who previously rejected an away rotation. In the very least, an away rotation you are accepted for and refuse is obviously not your top choice (at that point, anyways). Programs psychology is probably to prefer applicants who see them as their top choice. Hard to blame programs for not interviewing applicants who refuse an away rotation, considering the hundreds of other options.

The best solution would be for programs to approve and schedule students for away rotations quickly, so if you don't get one you can apply for the other. In the meantime, if you are particular about really wanting three aways, it might be in your best interest to pair three places you really want to rotate at with three other places you are willing to risk losing an interview at. Not ideal, certainly, but practical. Also, I have great respect for people who have the strength and energy to dominate three away rotations and a home rotation in the span of about 6 months. I knew I didn't want to do it, saw a few times the disastrous consequences of folks who thought they could but ultimately couldn't maintain, and was truly impressed by the rare person who powered through unfazed.

Also, as an aside, please remember that the program managers, program coordinators, administrative assistants, clinic managers, nurses, PAs, etc you interact with at any and all points in the application process may have a lot of influence on your selection (or not), just as they will have a lot of influence on how you are perceived and treated if you match (and forever after). They deserve your respect, and giving them respect is also very much in your self-interest. The thankfully small number of times we heard that an applicant had been anything less than respectful and deferential to our program managers quickly led the residents to advocate strongly against the applicant.

 

[PanzerTank00]

The 'secretaries' who process away applications are often-if-not-always otherwise known as the program manager, assistant program manager, or program coordinator for the residency you are applying for. They generally run the residency day-to-day, more so than program directors who are also busy clinicians. My bet is, they may remind PDs of applicants who previously rejected an away rotation. In the very least, an away rotation you are accepted for and refuse is obviously not your top choice (at that point, anyways). Programs psychology is probably to prefer applicants who see them as their top choice. Hard to blame programs for not interviewing applicants who refuse an away rotation, considering the hundreds of other options.

The best solution would be for programs to approve and schedule students for away rotations quickly, so if you don't get one you can apply for the other. In the meantime, if you are particular about really wanting three aways, it might be in your best interest to pair three places you really want to rotate at with three other places you are willing to risk losing an interview at. Not ideal, certainly, but practical. Also, I have great respect for people who have the strength and energy to dominate three away rotations and a home rotation in the span of about 6 months. I knew I didn't want to do it, saw a few times the disastrous consequences of folks who thought they could but ultimately couldn't maintain, and was truly impressed by the rare person who powered through unfazed.

Also, as an aside, please remember that the program managers, program coordinators, administrative assistants, clinic managers, nurses, PAs, etc you interact with at any and all points in the application process may have a lot of influence on your selection (or not), just as they will have a lot of influence on how you are perceived and treated if you match (and forever after). They deserve your respect, and giving them respect is also very much in your self-interest. The thankfully small number of times we heard that an applicant had been anything less than respectful and deferential to our program managers quickly led the residents to advocate strongly against the applicant.

Agreed with this post and think a more efficient away rotation system would be helpful to all

 

[ru4real1666]

So it seems my best option is to apply for just those three programs but apply for many backup options. For example, Apply for Program 1 in August but for that program, apply in many selections such as Sports, J0ints, Trauma, etc. Does that seem right to anyone else? or has anyone else had better luck doing something else?

 

[PanzerTank00]

I only applied for one location/program for each month (e.g. one in August, one in September, one in October), and then applied to all the different services at each one (if they were available). IIRC, ERAS allows you to rank the different services/sites in order of preference. This worked out extremely well for me.

The advice I got was to only apply to one program per time slot because if you apply early/as soon as it opens (critical that you do this), you will get the slot unless you do not meet their screening criteria. I did not apply to any back up programs and ended up getting my first choices at each place. To my knowledge, all of my classmates and friends I met on the trail also only applied to one per month slot and did fine (e.g. they did not get turned down for any aways).

Unless you only want to rotate at highly desirable places, your best bet is to just apply to one at a time, VERY EARLY, in the exact months that you want them. If you do not get one, then you can apply for a backup program that month. Most places have plenty of openings for most months though maybe not if its a place with a high volume of rotators during high season (July, August, September).

Your biggest challenge is choosing programs that you believe will be a good fit.

Good luck!

 

[ru4real1666]

Hey Panzer,

Thanks for the great advice and confirming what I suspected. Do you have an idea of what is "VERY EARLY." Obviously, you mean right after the application opens, but for some of them, the application opened up 2 weeks ago. Would is still be considered "very early" if I applied early March? I think I have a good idea of the programs I want to apply to (getting the hard part of that out of the way), but am just literally waiting for my appointment so I can get some of the titres that have been requested by the programs.

Again, thanks a ton for the advice! It's been extremely helpful to me and I hope it has had a similar impact on other applicants this year/next year.

 

[PanzerTank00]

Honestly man, I have no idea and I'd be guessing if I said that you are/aren't likely to get it.

I submitted within the first week for all (including one extremely popular program) and got my top choices for all. Just give it a shot and see what happens. Since it's only February, if you submit for that one and don't get it you can just resubmit for another place to rotate after.

 

[Tripl3crown]

Or it could be totally possible that said "big name" program would have rejected you anyways. Did you get a lot of other invites from "big name" programs? If so, then maybe you're right. If not, then it probably has more to do with the relative strength of your application than anything else.

I ask these questions because I don't necessarily believe that cancelling an away, especially when done WAY in advance, has bearing on your admissions status for later. I mean, it's a secretary handling it, not the chair of the resident selection committee. I suppose it's possible that they keep a list but it doesn't mean that they necessarily have to.

What would screw you is cancelling an away with minimal short notice. Then, they will remember you no question.

I think you read it wrong. I went on the away at the big name program and canceled at the solid but not as big program. I had a strong app and did get about 6 "Top 20" reputation interviews. Your right it's just speculation but I was definitely qualified for the program and had some location ties.