Applying to DO after rejection from MD

[IAmBlessed]

Hello SDN! I am a former applicant for the 2015 cycle for admissions. It looks like from the result so far, I'm most likely not going to get accepted into any allopathic school . I'm not sure what happened, my mcat is a 31 (9verbal,11bs,11ps), my GPA is a 3.83 (3.7science gpa), and I graduated from a top 20 university. I am still adamant about medicine, so I am thinking about applying to some DO schools. I did some research and I found out that DO and MD are almost identical in how they are taught at school and how its actually practiced. My question to you is this.

As an applicant, how is applying to DO schools different from Allopathic schools? Would they accept all my science letters? Do we have to volunteer in different places? I have a physician letter from an MD thats being added to my application, but I'm afraid the DO admissions won't care for the insight of a physician thats not in the exact same field. Can somebody give me some information on this?

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[touchpause13]

Shadow a DO. Figure out how you are going to answer the "why DO?" Question on secondaries and interviews (hint: saying you didn't get into an MD school isn't a legit answer) your GPA might change because math isn't included and if you did any retakes they are replaced.

Other than that there aren't any real differences I can think of. Your stats are good - what do you think happened this year? Also you can apply to both MD and DO schools next year

 

[Doug Underhill]

You want to do DO shadowing for DO schools. They consider it important. Start cold calling.

Since both your GPA and MCAT are fine, consider rectifying why you didn't get in previously. A lack of clinical experience? Bad interviewing skills? Didn't you have some kind of really weird discrepancy with your committee LOR where they mixed you up with another student? How did that go?

 

[IAmBlessed]

I didn't apply to all my state schools (I know, what's past is past). I also been told a physician letter makes a huge difference in my application. I applied early this year so I will definitely need to ask some adcoms what happened.

 

[IAmBlessed]

You want to do DO shadowing for DO schools. They consider it important. Start cold calling.

Since both your GPA and MCAT are fine, consider rectifying why you didn't get in previously. A lack of clinical experience? Bad interviewing skills? Didn't you have some kind of really weird discrepancy with your committee LOR where they mixed you up with another student? How did that go?

Well what happened is I stated in my composite letter essays that I planned on maybe shadowing physicians at a particularly hospital. They inferred that I actually did it, but plans change. Hopefully, the adcoms understand this?

 

[BlueCircle]

Hello SDN! I am a former applicant for the 2015 cycle for admissions. It looks like from the result so far, I'm most likely not going to get accepted into any allopathic school . I'm not sure what happened, my mcat is a 31 (9verbal,11bs,11ps), my GPA is a 3.83 (3.7science gpa), and I graduated from a top 20 university. I am still adamant about medicine, so I am thinking about applying to some DO schools. I did some research and I found out that DO and MD are almost identical in how they are taught at school and how its actually practiced. My question to you is this.

As an applicant, how is applying to DO schools different from Allopathic schools? Would they accept all my science letters? Do we have to volunteer in different places? I have a physician letter from an MD thats being added to my application, but I'm afraid the DO admissions won't care for the insight of a physician thats not in the exact same field. Can somebody give me some information on this?

Most important question: are you male or female?

Second most important question:
Are you ORM, URM, or PRM?

 

[Womb Raider]

Figure out how you are going to answer the "why DO?"

Such a silly question... You guys take what, 1 different/additional class than us? And every DO I've met just kinda shrugs and admits that they never use what they learned as far as manipulative medicine goes.

 

[Womb Raider]

Most important question: are you male or female?

Second most important question:
Are you ORM, URM, or PRM?

Why is gender more important than race?

 

[BlueCircle]

Why is gender more important than race?

Women have a leg up in admissions, or so I thought that was the general concensus.

 

[touchpause13]

Women have a leg up in admissions, or so I thought that was the general concensus.

lol since when?
Look at the stats for matriculating men and women. They are essentially the same (women have a slightly lower MCAT, but a slightly higher GPA)

 

[Goro]

It's more than just using OMM...it's a mindset.

OP, also be able to explain "Why DO"? without merely vomiting up what you learned from wiki.

Such a silly question... You guys take what, 1 different/additional class than us? And every DO I've met just kinda shrugs and admits that they never use what they learned as far as manipulative medicine goes.

 

[touchpause13]

Such a silly question... You guys take what, 1 different/additional class than us? And every DO I've met just kinda shrugs and admits that they never use what they learned as far as manipulative medicine goes.

Yup.
I'd say that a lot of us use it on our friends/family but I know like 1 person in my class who actually wants to use it in practice

I would agree with Goro that there are differences other than OMM, but they are more subtle and I'm not really a fan of acting like we are soooooo different.

 

[Goro]

100% false.

Women have a leg up in admissions, or so I thought that was the general concensus.

 

[LA1004]

Such a silly question... You guys take what, 1 different/additional class than us? And every DO I've met just kinda shrugs and admits that they never use what they learned as far as manipulative medicine goes.

Silly question or not, most secondaries at DO schools ask this in some form or other and it is likely to show up during interviews. Being prepared for it is a must.

 

[gyngyn]

Most important question: are you male or female?

This is entirely neutral in medical school admissions interview offers.

 

[gyngyn]

I didn't apply to all my state schools (I know, what's past is past). I also been told a physician letter makes a huge difference in my application. I applied early this year so I will definitely need to ask some adcoms what happened.

Not for MD schools.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I would say the only difference is you almost certainly should shadow a DO. I had shadowed a DO from the time she was a fellow till she became an attending (but that might excessive for most). I'm sure that as a result my recommendation letter was phenomenal. She never used OMM so there was no difference between what she did and any other MDs in the specialty.

I was not asked at a single DO interview why I wanted to become a DO specifically (although, most others who interviewed in my groups were). I was honest and upfront and said that my primary goal was to become a physician and that I had applied to both MD and DO schools and would go to the school that fit me best (I normally then explained why the school I was at was that school). I also said that while I thought OMM would be cool to learn (which I do), I didn't foresee using it much in practice (given the specialty I want to pursue).

I was accepted at PCOM, ATSU (KCOM) and NSU. I turned down several other interviews. Only DO school to reject me pre-interview was LECOM-Bradenton (ironically, one of my top going in because my friend has a vacation house by it that he said I could stay at for free while I attended med school and combined with their cheap tuition, it would have been a steal... but oh well).

Although, you didn't ask, think long and hard about DO. You are going to have to most likely take both the COMLEX and USMLE Step 1 and certain specialties will be much harder to reach as a DO (though not impossible). Think long and hard if you have your sights set on derm, orthopedic surgery, plastics etc. My gf is a general surgery resident here in NY and there are a handful of DOs in her program and they went through hell to match into the program (had to take more standardized exams, go to many more interviews for residency and such). But, in the end you will be a physician (which was all that mattered to me).

Good luck!

 

[IAmBlessed]

Not for MD schools.

Really? This was one thing that was pointed out by an adcom at one of the medical schools I applied toward. Im guessing you are an adcom as well so I'm not sure who to believe anymore. Maybe its different for each school?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Such a silly question... You guys take what, 1 different/additional class than us? And every DO I've met just kinda shrugs and admits that they never use what they learned as far as manipulative medicine goes.

Its more then just one class. That one class is OPP not just OMM. Its about the entire principles of osteopathic medicine. OP has to learn what they are (four big ones)

Silly question or not, most secondaries at DO schools ask this in some form or other and it is likely to show up during interviews. Being prepared for it is a must.

I actually was never asked on a secondary Why DO?. Never was asked directly why DO on an interview. Its also not a silly question.

Really? This was one thing that was pointed out by an adcom at one of the medical schools I applied toward. Im guessing you are an adcom as well so I'm not sure who to believe anymore. Maybe its different for each school?

In general it doesn't mean much unless the physician's opinion holds weight at that school. For DO schools a DO letter means something.

 

[ndafife]

1. Its late in the cycle for both MD and DO schools. So its going to be pretty competitive for the schools still accepting apps.

2. Why DO?

3. Is there a school you legitimately want to go to? You have to look at the next 4 years of your life, not just the next 1.

4. Many DO schools ask for a DO LOR, or at least an MD LOR. If you don't have these already, you just push yourself later in the cycle.

 

[NYCdude]

Your stats are good for M.D.

Seems like you didn't apply broadly enough.

 

[gyngyn]

Really? This was one thing that was pointed out by an adcom at one of the medical schools I applied toward. Im guessing you are an adcom as well so I'm not sure who to believe anymore. Maybe its different for each school?

There are a few MD schools that request a "clinical" letter (AZ for example).
Apparently some undergraduate committees require one to formulate their letters.
They are mostly considered fluff by those I know.

I have found that explanations given for not interviewing an applicant are often less than useful. It comes down to how good the rest of the pool was, not some particular deficiency of yours.

 

[cactus8910]

1. Its late in the cycle for both MD and DO schools. So its going to be pretty competitive for the schools still accepting apps.

4. Many DO schools ask for a DO LOR, or at least an MD LOR. If you don't have these already, you just push yourself later in the cycle.

I'm pretty sure OP is talking about applying to DO schools next cycle.

 

[jqueb29]

I would wait until next cycle if I were you; it's very late in the game to apply DO. Reapply next year to DO, and also apply to all your state MD's and any MD program (that you have a chance of being admitted to) that you would prefer over a DO school.

 

[blueharbor]

100% false.

This is entirely neutral in medical school admissions.

If you calculate apply/admit ratios based on USNWR data, women have a better chance of acceptance across the board, with the % likelihood of admission almost doubling at some schools. The fact is that more men than women apply to medical schools, but medical schools want balanced classes, so women end up with an advantage in admissions.

If you want further proof of this, compare percentages of female and male applicants here. The only schools with more female than male applicants are HBCUs, Puerto Rican schools, UCLA-Drew and Connecticut. At almost all other schools, the difference is significant. At Mayo, Kentucky, Louisville, North Dakota, Nevada, Ohio State, and Tennessee, for example, the applicant ratio is about 60/40. At Utah, the applicant ratio is 67/33, but the matriculant ratio is 50/50.

 

[gyngyn]

If you calculate apply/admit ratios based on USNWR data, women have a better chance of acceptance across the board, with the % likelihood of admission almost doubling at some schools. The fact is that more men than women apply to medical schools, but medical schools want balanced classes, so women end up with an advantage in admissions.

If you want further proof of this, compare percentages of female and male applicants here. The only schools with more female than male applicants are HBCUs, Puerto Rican schools, UCLA-Drew and Connecticut. At almost all other schools, the difference is significant. At Mayo, Kentucky, Louisville, North Dakota, Nevada, Ohio State, and Tennessee, for example, the applicant ratio is about 60/40. At Utah, the applicant ratio is 67/33, but the matriculant ratio is 50/50.

I am saying that sex does not affect the selection of interview candidates. I do not deny that women often display interpersonal skills in this process that may give them an advantage in admission.

 

[breakintheroof]

@blueharbor I love the case you're making. Really interesting.

What @gyngyn is saying sounds like the UC-Davis study about personality and the MMI. They built a model to see what factors influenced acceptance rate post-interview. Being female was predictive of acceptance, but its effect disappeared when they controlled for MMI performance and personality factors like extraversion.

 

[Mad Jack]

Hello SDN! I am a former applicant for the 2015 cycle for admissions. It looks like from the result so far, I'm most likely not going to get accepted into any allopathic school . I'm not sure what happened, my mcat is a 31 (9verbal,11bs,11ps), my GPA is a 3.83 (3.7science gpa), and I graduated from a top 20 university. I am still adamant about medicine, so I am thinking about applying to some DO schools. I did some research and I found out that DO and MD are almost identical in how they are taught at school and how its actually practiced. My question to you is this.

As an applicant, how is applying to DO schools different from Allopathic schools? Would they accept all my science letters? Do we have to volunteer in different places? I have a physician letter from an MD thats being added to my application, but I'm afraid the DO admissions won't care for the insight of a physician thats not in the exact same field. Can somebody give me some information on this?

Did you apply broadly initially? With your stats, a 40+ school spread should have gotten you into an MD school so long as your ECs are in check.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you calculate apply/admit ratios based on USNWR data, women have a better chance of acceptance across the board, with the % likelihood of admission almost doubling at some schools. The fact is that more men than women apply to medical schools, but medical schools want balanced classes, so women end up with an advantage in admissions.

If you want further proof of this, compare percentages of female and male applicants here. The only schools with more female than male applicants are HBCUs, Puerto Rican schools, UCLA-Drew and Connecticut. At almost all other schools, the difference is significant. At Mayo, Kentucky, Louisville, North Dakota, Nevada, Ohio State, and Tennessee, for example, the applicant ratio is about 60/40. At Utah, the applicant ratio is 67/33, but the matriculant ratio is 50/50.

So far as I know, sex isn't even looked at during the admission process at any point in my school. Classes usually end up being close to balanced, but I don't believe they even factor in sex when offering interviews, as each applicant is looked at individually and a "yea" or "nay" is made.

 

[blueharbor]

I am saying that sex does not affect the selection of interview candidates. I do not deny that women often display interpersonal skills in this process that may give them an advantage in admission.

I wholeheartedly agree that women may (on average) have qualities that make them more attractive than men (on average) as potential doctors. It seems unlikely that this would explain all of the likelihood-of-acceptance gap, especially since matriculant rates end up being about 50/50 regardless of the applicant ratio that the school started out with.

 

[Mad Jack]

I wholeheartedly agree that women may (on average) have qualities that make them more attractive than men (on average) as potential doctors. It seems unlikely that this would explain all of the likelihood-of-acceptance gap, especially since matriculant rates end up being about 50/50 regardless of the applicant ratio that the school started out with.

One last thing to further drive home that female applicants aren't really advantaged: out of 48,014 applicants in 2013, 25,760, or 53.7% of applicants were male, while 46.3% of applicants were female. There's probably a greater number of male applicants to most schools because they apply more broadly, but ultimately most classes will have a near 50/50 ratio of male/female due to a fairly balanced initial applicant pool.

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/358410/20131024.html

 

[blueharbor]

One last thing to further drive home that female applicants aren't really advantaged: out of 48,014 applicants in 2013, 25,760, or 53.7% of applicants were male, while 46.3% of applicants were female. There's probably a greater number of male applicants to most schools because they apply more broadly, but ultimately most classes will have a near 50/50 ratio of male/female due to a fairly balanced initial applicant pool.

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/358410/20131024.html

If males apply more broadly to achieve the same level of success as women, then they have a lower chance of acceptance at each med school that they apply to than women do (supported by USNWR numbers). Meaning that med schools have a preference for women in admissions, whether the reason is better interpersonal skills or a desire for a balanced class or a combination.

 

[blueharbor]

@blueharbor I love the case you're making. Really interesting.

What @gyngyn is saying sounds like the UC-Davis study about personality and the MMI. They built a model to see what factors influenced acceptance rate post-interview. Being female was predictive of acceptance, but its effect disappeared when they controlled for MMI performance and personality factors like extraversion.

That's a fascinating study and supports what gyngyn is saying, which is something I haven't come across on sdn or elsewhere before (although it makes perfect sense to me). I haven't crunched the sex ratio numbers for interview invites, but it could be interesting to see whether the preference happens pre- or post-interview.

 

[Mad Jack]

If males apply more broadly to achieve the same level of success as women, then they have a lower chance of acceptance at each med school that they apply to than women do (supported by USNWR numbers). Meaning that med schools have a preference for women in admissions, whether the reason is better interpersonal skills or a desire for a balanced class or a combination.

It's really impossible to say. You're drawing conclusions without data, and there could be a lot of confounding factors. Perhaps many of the men that applied broadly had lower scores overall and were going to get in nowhere to begin with? Perhaps the men that were extremely successful in undergrad applied broadly and got into multiple places but could only choose one? Perhaps ORM men are more likely to apply broadly, but are held to higher standards than URMs, which are historically far more heavily weighted toward the female side of the spectrum? It's really impossible to say. You can't look at one simple number in a process in which many people have many different traits about them are applying to varying numbers of schools.

 

[Goro]

100% agree. Gender content of the class has never, ever been mentioned in the > 10 years I've been on our Adcom.

So far as I know, sex isn't even looked at during the admission process at any point in my school. Classes usually end up being close to balanced, but I don't believe they even factor in sex when offering interviews, as each applicant is looked at individually and a "yea" or "nay" is made.

 

[BlueCircle]

100% agree. Gender content of the class has never, ever been mentioned in the > 10 years I've been on our Adcom.

Do racial and ethnic background get mentioned?

 

[blueharbor]

It's really impossible to say. You're drawing conclusions without data, and there could be a lot of confounding factors. Perhaps many of the men that applied broadly had lower scores overall and were going to get in nowhere to begin with? Perhaps the men that were extremely successful in undergrad applied broadly and got into multiple places but could only choose one? Perhaps ORM men are more likely to apply broadly, but are held to higher standards than URMs, which are historically far more heavily weighted toward the female side of the spectrum? It's really impossible to say. You can't look at one simple number in a process in which many people have many different traits about them are applying to varying numbers of schools.

There's actually a lot of data. I've provided some of it, which indisputably shows that women have a higher rate of acceptance at almost every US medical school than men.

(Your first hypothetical would be unlikely to matter if true, given that women with lower scores would likely apply broadly as well - and men have better scores on average anyway; your second hypothetical would not contradict my point because each of their acceptances would be counted in individual school data; and your third hypothetical could make a difference for white women, but would not change the fact that women receive preference in admissions).

What is unclear is why the preference exists, and there could be a combination of factors. I'm not going to try to figure out what that combination is, but there are some more things one could do to figure out what's going on with available data. You could crunch the interview invite gender ratios to see if the preference happens before the interview or after (the latter possibly indicating that personality is the main factor). You could also look at average applicant MCAT scores and GPA by gender, although I do know that male applicants generally outperform female applicants on the MCAT (not sure about GPA).

Finally, as a supporter of affirmative action, I don't know why people seem to view this possibility so distastefully. Women are not applying to medical school at the same rates as men (it's getting there, but women haven't overtaken men as they have in other fields), and there is nothing wrong with med schools making sure they have a class that represents the US population, just as they do to counterbalance racial disparities in application rates.

Finally #2, I don't necessarily think that women are receiving preference purely to balance out the class - it could be due to merit (women having more volunteering, displaying more compassion in their personal statements, having better interpersonal skills) or logistics (more female URMs than male URMs being accepted). I don't know! But I think it's likely there's some subtle engineering of the gender ratios at some schools to achieve those lovely 50-50 numbers, if not at the schools represented in this thread.

 

[SkipJunior]

Do racial and ethnic background get mentioned?

hahaha, I eagerly await the response for your question.

 

[Goro]

Rarely, actually. We've rejected URM candidate who we felt couldn't make it through our program, to the despair of our wily old Admissions Dean.

Do racial and ethnic background get mentioned?

 

[Womb Raider]

You could also look at average applicant MCAT scores and GPA by gender, although I do know that male applicants generally outperform female applicants on the MCAT (not sure about GPA).

It's true. Women tend to do worse than men on the science sections of the MCAT. I know UTSW (Texas' #1 school) gives (or did last year when I actually looked into this) their female applicants something like +1 points to their MCAT score to even the playing field if one of their science sections was under a 10. I don't remember the specifics, if you're really interested you could search through all my old posts... But they could either receive +1 extra points or +2, depending on how they did on the two science sections.

...and there is nothing wrong with med schools making sure they have a class that represents the US population, just as they do to counterbalance racial disparities in application rates.

Hmm...... Not sure I agree with this. For instance, if med schools tried to match the # of women physicians with the US demographics, they would have to let in a LOT more women than men per class. Why? Because A) there are more women alive than men and B) lots of women stop working or become part-time workers when they have babies. (Also, I'd assume C) Men tend to work longer (retire at a later age) than women, but that's purely conjecture).

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

It's true. Women tend to do worse than men on the science sections of the MCAT. I know UTSW (Texas' #1 school) gives (or did last year when I actually looked into this) their female applicants something like +1 points to their MCAT score to even the playing field if one of their science sections was under a 10. I don't remember the specifics, if you're really interested you could search through all my old posts... But they could either receive +1 extra points or +2, depending on how they did on the two science sections.

This is true. Do women score better on verbal? I'm guessing the answer is yes.

 

[touchpause13]

This is true. Do women score better on verbal? I'm guessing the answer is yes.

You would be correct

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

You would be correct

I bet women will score better on the new MCAT.

Sort of wish I'd waited and applied the year after it came out.

 

[touchpause13]

I bet women will score better on the new MCAT.

Sort of wish I'd waited and applied the year after it came out.

I know the feeling. I was disappointed I didn't get to take it, I know I would have killed it.

 

[NYCdude]

You women can keep your fancy verbal scores. I think we know who scores higher on teh lifting scorz, chyeah.