Are Australian medical schools ending their 6 year undergraduate programs?

[ThreadMaker]

Traditionally Australia has had a 6 year undergraduate medical program which starts after a student finishes high school. And yet the more research I do the more I see Australian medical schools saying that they now have 4 year graduate entry program where one enters after gaining a bachelors degree. So are Australian medical schools gradually ending their 6 year undergraduate programs?

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[Medstart108]

Traditionally Australia has had a 6 year undergraduate medical program which starts after a student finishes high school. And yet the more research I do the more I see Australian medical schools saying that they now have 4 year graduate entry program where one enters after gaining a bachelors degree. So are Australian medical schools gradually ending their 6 year undergraduate programs?

Maybe. I think a few schools just won't switch mostly because they will get more and more competitive candidates. For example, if all the top universities like Melbourne and Sydney and ANU switch to graduate entry. There will still be top students who want to finish medical school 2 years earlier. So a school like Flinders if they keep their 6 year program will be able to get some of the smartest candidates.

So i think overall, there will always be some undergraduate programs.

 

[ThreadMaker]

Maybe. I think a few schools just won't switch mostly because they will get more and more competitive candidates. For example, if all the top universities like Melbourne and Sydney and ANU switch to graduate entry. There will still be top students who want to finish medical school 2 years earlier. So a school like Flinders if they keep their 6 year program will be able to get some of the smartest candidates.

So i think overall, there will always be some undergraduate programs.

But what about the majority? I'm not saying that undergraduate entry will become extinct, but do you think it will become a minority? Meaning will the majority of medical programs in australia become graduate entry?

 

[pitman]

The majority of programs are already graduate entry. This switch happened in 2008.

Flinders was the first to become grad c. 1996, followed by UQ and USyd. The reason for the first was that Flinders was in deep financial trouble, and going grad opened the doors to the full-fee int'l student market, particularly wealthy N. Americans. There was also some connection between UQ's troubled finances and going grad in the late 1990s, but UQ didn't embrace int'ls until 2004/5 .

Some schools have both grad and undergrad -- e.g, UQ has sort of a hybrid, where they guarantee top high school students a spot if they get reasonable grades in a two-year unis science degree, so it taps both pools of talent.

 

[514901]

The majority of programs are already graduate entry. This switch happened in 2008.

Flinders was the first to become grad c. 1996, followed by UQ and USyd. The reason for the first was that Flinders was in deep financial trouble, and going grad opened the doors to the full-fee int'l student market, particularly wealthy N. Americans. There was also some connection between UQ's troubled finances and going grad in the late 1990s, but UQ didn't embrace int'ls until 2004/5 .

Some schools have both grad and undergrad -- e.g, UQ has sort of a hybrid, where they guarantee top high school students a spot if they get reasonable grades in a two-year unis science degree, so it taps both pools of talent.

Ah yes, the American model. With the aim of denigrating the sanctity of everything.

 

[neulite30]

29.2% (5) of medical schools in Australia are 6 years.
27.2% (7) are 5 years.
43.6% (11) are 4 years.

The following link is to an annual report on medical training in Australia. It is extremely comprehensive and detailed (and long). It is a good read and will give you an idea about the current training schemes here in Australia at the undergraduate, graduate, and post-graduate level.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/72EA9A5A85F35F46CA257B1D0005F61A/$File/Medical%20Training%20Review%20Panel%2016th%20Report.pdf

 

[Medstart108]

29.2% (5) of medical schools in Australia are 6 years.
27.2% (7) are 5 years.
43.6% (11) are 4 years.

The following link is to an annual report on medical training in Australia. It is extremely comprehensive and detailed (and long). It is a good read and will give you an idea about the current training schemes here in Australia at the undergraduate, graduate, and post-graduate level.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/72EA9A5A85F35F46CA257B1D0005F61A/$File/Medical%20Training%20Review%20Panel%2016th%20Report.pdf

I think its a dead link.

 

[neulite30]

I think its a dead link.

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/72EA9A5A85F35F46CA257B1D0005F61A/$File/Medical%20Training%20Review%20Panel%2016th%20Report.pdf

 

[pitman]

29.2% (5) of medical schools in Australia are 6 years.
27.2% (7) are 5 years.
43.6% (11) are 4 years.

Well sort of -- schools with multiple programs are listed multiple times (there aren't 23 med schools but 19 if counting Notre Dame appropriately as two), and I think your percentages are referring to student numbers not schools. More than 50% of students are grad entry, but that percentage continues to grow as some undergrad programs are phased out (as their remaining cohorts graduate) and the newer grad programs add cohorts.

It is of note that the only new undergrad school in the past 10 years was UWS, while there have been at least 6 new grad programs. Melbourne undergrad's last intake was 2008, and even its 5year grad program has stopped intakes, leaving only its 4year grad program taking new students. Bond is a 5yr program that's now mostly undergrad but still ~20% grad, and UWA has both a (new) 5 year grad program and its old 6 year undergrad program.

In terms of current intakes, I *think* the breakdown is:

9 schools have significant undergrad intakes:

Adelaide
Bond
JCU
Monash
Newcastle
UNSW
UTas
UWA
UWS​

13 schools have significant grad intakes:

ANU
Bond
Deakin
Flinders
Griffith
Melbourne
Monash
Notre Dame (Fremantle)
Notre Dame (Sydney)
UQ
USyd
UWA
Wollongong
​

(3 schools [UWA, Bond, Monash] have significant intakes for both)

At any rate, the balance of power in AMSA first shifted to the grad programs in 2008.

 

[Mordecai]

The first year that Melbourne switched to the post-grad model, all the top scoring high school students applied to Monash Med. Monash Undergrad is 5 years compared to the post-graduate debacle that Melbourne Uni became. So there was a noticeable uptick in applicants to Monash Med. Unlike the US (whose model we appear to be following), most medical students will not get into a specialty (even GP) until at least PGY3. So the extra years spent in a prestigious uni like Melbourne Uni have to be balanced against the fact that the undergrads from Monash will be ahead of you in the competition for specialty training spots.

 

[Medstart108]

The first year that Melbourne switched to the post-grad model, all the top scoring high school students applied to Monash Med. Monash Undergrad is 5 years compared to the post-graduate debacle that Melbourne Uni became. So there was a noticeable uptick in applicants to Monash Med. Unlike the US (whose model we appear to be following), most medical students will not get into a specialty (even GP) until at least PGY3. So the extra years spent in a prestigious uni like Melbourne Uni have to be balanced against the fact that the undergrads from Monash will be ahead of you in the competition for specialty training spots.

Yeah i honestly have no clue why Melbourne would make such an ill-conceived decision. Most universities have just offered 2 streams instead of switch from undergraduate to post-graduate. They've managed to lose a great number of potential future successful alumni with that blunder.

 

[pitman]

I don't think the grads from the MD program at Melbourne will be agreeing with you on that. Students who do grad programs do so for a variety of reasons, and these days (if really ever) not because they couldn't get in to an undergrad program. They tend to be those who want to learn something useful, besides medicine, and to live a little, before what will be a truly grueling 7, 8, even 9+ years of training and ass-kissing for all concerned.

 

[thomas pynchon]

I don't think the grads from the MD program at Melbourne will be agreeing with you on that. Students who do grad programs do so for a variety of reasons, and these days (if really ever) not because they couldn't get in to an undergrad program. They tend to be those who want to learn something useful, besides medicine, and to live a little, before what will be a truly grueling 7, 8, even 9+ years of training and ass-kissing for all concerned.

That and the fact that nobody can know they want to be a doctor when they are in high school (beyond trying to do what their parents say they should do). I'd be willing to bet anything that doctor burnout and dissatisfaction is far higher in those who enter med right after high school.

 

[Medstart108]

That and the fact that nobody can know they want to be a doctor when they are in high school (beyond trying to do what their parents say they should do). I'd be willing to bet anything that doctor burnout and dissatisfaction is far higher in those who enter med right after high school.

Thats completely untrue. Dropout rates in medical schools that start from high school are very low about 7%. Besides, most countries in the world have medical school direct entry from high school. If you are old enough to decide you want to join the army, study engineering, psychology, math, physics, chemistry why aren't you old enough to study medicine?

 

[thomas pynchon]

Thats completely untrue. Dropout rates in medical schools that start from high school are very low about 7%. Besides, most countries in the world have medical school direct entry from high school. If you are old enough to decide you want to join the army, study engineering, psychology, math, physics, chemistry why aren't you old enough to study medicine?

People change majors all the time. I think the students I know who went to med right after high school did fine in preclinical years but it was a huge shock to them being in the hospital and being around sick and dying patients. No one that age really has the capacity to understand the human condition in that setting. How can you work in something like palliative care when you are just out of high school? Makes no sense to me. And what kind of weirdo wants to be locked into a profession starting at the age of 21-22? There's a lot out there to accomplish and to see in life.

Thats what I agree that all medical schools should be graduate entry. You need to gain life experiences and an appreciation for medicine--if you're just aiming for and studying medicine as a high school student you won't learn to appreciate medicine from any other perspective.

 

[Medstart108]

People change majors all the time. I think the students I know who went to med right after high school did fine in preclinical years but it was a huge shock to them being in the hospital and being around sick and dying patients. No one that age really has the capacity to understand the human condition in that setting. How can you work in something like palliative care when you are just out of high school? Makes no sense to me. And what kind of weirdo wants to be locked into a profession starting at the age of 21-22? There's a lot out there to accomplish and to see in life.

Thats what I agree that all medical schools should be graduate entry. You need to gain life experiences and an appreciation for medicine--if you're just aiming for and studying medicine as a high school student you won't learn to appreciate medicine from any other perspective.

Its not good for the workforce if you have doctors who only start actually working in their mid 30s. i'm talking about a macro perspective, no disrespect to non-trads at all.

First of all at 21-22 is when most people in the US and Canada start medical school. Going around calling 90% of all medical students doesn't make any sense.

 

[thomas pynchon]

No, the average age for starting med is about 25-28 in the United States and Canada.

'Its not good for the workforce if you have doctors who only start actually working in their mid 30s. i'm talking about a macro perspective, no disrespect to non-trads at all.'

It works perfectly economically...too many doctors in the workforce decreases everyone's salary.

 

[Medstart108]

No, the average age for starting med is about 25-28 in the United States and Canada.

'Its not good for the workforce if you have doctors who only start actually working in their mid 30s. i'm talking about a macro perspective, no disrespect to non-trads at all.'

It works perfectly economically...too many doctors in the workforce decreases everyone's salary.

Economically you need to put in the same amount of dollars to train every doctor but you get fewer years of labor. From a country's point of view, they would want to train just enough doctors to satisfy need and make them as productive as possible in order to get the best bang for their buck.

How can the average starting age be from 25-28. If you assume an 18 year old finishes a 4 year college degree, they would be 22 year old when they start. 28 could not possibly be the average.

The average is much close to 22-23, about half of a medical school class got in directly college and most of the rest probably got in after a gap year.

 

[thomas pynchon]

Economically you need to put in the same amount of dollars to train every doctor but you get fewer years of labor. From a country's point of view, they would want to train just enough doctors to satisfy need and make them as productive as possible in order to get the best bang for their buck.

How can the average starting age be from 25-28. If you assume an 18 year old finishes a 4 year college degree, they would be 22 year old when they start. 28 could not possibly be the average.

The average is much close to 22-23, about half of a medical school class got in directly college and most of the rest probably got in after a gap year.

No it's older because people in those countries actually decide to do something with their lives, like working (I know, sounds crazy), getting experience in other fields than medicine to see if they will actually like it, traveling, or taking time off otherwise. Universities are also far more expensive in America and getting into med school is much more difficult than it is in Australia.

 

[Medstart108]

No it's older because people in those countries actually decide to do something with their lives, like working (I know, sounds crazy), getting experience in other fields than medicine to see if they will actually like it, traveling, or taking time off otherwise. Universities are also far more expensive in America and getting into med school is much more difficult than it is in Australia.

I don't know whats your deal, but you are basically saying that its not possible for a high schooler to make a decision to go into medicine, and then you also state that most people decide to "actually do something with their lives" as if the people who go from college to medical school are weirdos.

I know that some people can't get into medical school and take a gap year to improve their application. I also know people who have voluntarily taken a year off or have explored different career options before returning to medicine. There are both sides to this equation and you were making a lot of generalizations.

If you just said: "a lot of high schoolers can't make the decision to go into medicine without their parents guidance" and "some people do choose to take a few years off in between college and medical school to explore different careers" I would have no problem. My only problem is that you are making generalizations and you are giving no leeway using words like "impossible" or "decide to actually do something with their lives".

 

[thomas pynchon]

I don't know whats your deal, but you are basically saying that its not possible for a high schooler to make a decision to go into medicine, and then you also state that most people decide to "actually do something with their lives" as if the people who go from college to medical school are weirdos.

I know that some people can't get into medical school and take a gap year to improve their application. I also know people who have voluntarily taken a year off or have explored different career options before returning to medicine. There are both sides to this equation and you were making a lot of generalizations.

If you just said: "a lot of high schoolers can't make the decision to go into medicine without their parents guidance" and "some people do choose to take a few years off in between college and medical school to explore different careers" I would have no problem. My only problem is that you are making generalizations and you are giving no leeway using words like "impossible" or "decide to actually do something with their lives".

I honestly cannot imagine how myopic one would need to be to be fixated on going into medicine at the age of 18. I am definitely saying you would need to be a weirdo to want to go into med right out of high school because you would be missing out on the best experiences and times of your life just so that you can gun for a high salary specialty and career.

 

[Medstart108]

I honestly cannot imagine how myopic one would need to be to be fixated on going into medicine at the age of 18. I am definitely saying you would need to be a weirdo to want to go into med right out of high school because you would be missing out on the best experiences and times of your life just so that you can gun for a high salary specialty and career.

I hope you know its not a high salary career in many countries that have medicine from 18. And yet, people still go into medicine and it is still very competitive in these countries. Maybe for you its just some high salary career you do after you "have fun in your 20s", but clearly for others its not. Please, re-consider medicine.

Come to think of it are you a pre-med?

 

[thomas pynchon]

No I am in my 30s and a doctor...yes I am sure we all go into medicine for noble reasons

 

[Mordecai]

For decades now, the Australian medical student has entered training straight from high school. This must be a nation of weirdos since the high school students will also subject themselves to the UMAT exam(for medschool entrance) in addition to the usual national high school leaving exam. This "bizarre" behavior is repeated across Europe where 16-18 year olds decide on applying for medicine from an early age.

It is not unusual for the bright prospects here to be differentiated onto certain career paths by a relatively young age. In medicine this is an advantage seeing as the pathway into a specialty is so long post graduation.

 

[thomas pynchon]

That has more to do with cheap labour than anything else. You can convince yourself that a teenager has the capabilities to handle patients if you want though.

 

[Mordecai]

Not sure about the cheap labour part. Postgrads and undergrads are paid the same when PGY 1. The teenage part doesnt count either. Most medical undergrads don't see patients until 3rd year (or 4th year- in 6yr courses) and are then 21yrs-23yrs on average. They don't get to make decisions until final year(where they are supervised) 23-25yrs. This simply has to do with how the European model is. In Aus the undergrad medschool students are the top scores in Highschool. They can pick whatever they want. I suspect the undergrad program has more to do with the length of the European/Australian training pathway to a specialty. One could argue that postgrad medicine is all about enriching universities by having students amass debt on undergraduate courses they could well do without.

 

[thomas pynchon]

Oh it's definitely about schools making as much as possible off students but you're showing me why high schoolers shouldn't be allowed when you say 'In Aus the undergrad medschool students are the top scores in Highschool'

That seems to be implying the default or only pathway for the smartest is medicine, without any consideration for fit.

 

[Medstart108]

Oh it's definitely about schools making as much as possible off students but you're showing me why high schoolers shouldn't be allowed when you say 'In Aus the undergrad medschool students are the top scores in Highschool'

That seems to be implying the default or only pathway for the smartest is medicine, without any consideration for fit.

What makes you think they aren't fit for medicine? Drop out rates aren't through the roof and malpractice claims aren't sky high, the system works.

 

[Mordecai]

Scoring 99 on the Highschool exam is not enough for medicine. There's the UMAT test and then the med school interviews. Those help determine suitability for medicine. It's not enough to simply be smart.

I simply chose to say that smart students have many options open to them. Without being smart one can't even enter the selection process for medicine. In America one goes straight into a specialty in PGY1 - we don't. Then our training programs are so much longer( too long in my opinion for many specialties). I don't see why someone should waste time on a bmedsci , amassing debt when it's going to take 4 years postgrad to enter a 6 year surgical program (for example) which requires a masters or phd as part of training. Waste of young people's time.

 

[pitman]

I know you didn't quite say this, mordecai, but I don't think it's valid to say that delaying med is a waste of young people's time. It certainly is not a waste of time to learn other subjects (I think any undergrad degree before med should be quite different from medicine), about people, about how the world works...all contribute to being a good, well-rounded doctor.