Are doctors permitted to help people when they're off work?

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alphamine

alphamine

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When I was driving home today, there was a massive accident on the freeway. A car had slammed into the wall on the side and 3 other cars were sprawled in the lanes. The paramedics and police weren't there yet, and I saw a group of people outside the car that hit the wall, surrounding a person on the ground. Then, it occurred to me: if there were a doctor driving by, would s/he be legally permitted to help that person? I know that they should, but what I mean is, would they be chastised for it afterwards, because they have no hospital ID or anything on them as proof?

Just a general question... and I couldn't find any answer for this on Google or SDN.
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Yeah, they can and do. I've seen it happen.
 
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alphamine said:
When I was driving home today, there was a massive accident on the freeway. A car had slammed into the wall on the side and 3 other cars were sprawled in the lanes. The paramedics and police weren't there yet, and I saw a group of people outside the car that hit the wall, surrounding a person on the ground. Then, it occurred to me: if there were a doctor driving by, would s/he be legally permitted to help that person? I know that they should, but what I mean is, would they be chastised for it afterwards, because they have no hospital ID or anything on them as proof?

Just a general question... and I couldn't find any answer for this on Google or SDN.
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I used to work EMS. A random doctor (not your medical direction) on a highway accident is about as useful as anyone else, provided they don't get in the way of extraction/treatment.
 
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NickNaylor said:
Do random people stop and help? Why would a physician be any different?
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Yes, random people stop and help. But random people don't perform CPR and stuff. I meant can a physician help medically? Got my answer, though.
 
I work as an EMT and if, say, somebody goes into cardiac arrest next to me, I (or anybody) can perform CPR and apply the AED, etc. and I am covered under "Good Samaritan" laws so that I am not liable for wrongful death suits, etc. (unless I do something incredibly stupid like stab the guy). But once I say something like "I'm an EMT," then I am no longer covered by the "Good Samaritan" laws because I am acting in an official capacity and I am the responsible caretaker. Meaning that if I leave the patient, I can be sued for patient abandonment, etc. I'm not sure if it's the same for physicians but here's a good website describing what happens in a similar scenario: http://www.aaos.org/news/aaosnow/jan14/managing3.asp

I would think that they are covered based on the site. Here's also the text of the NJ statute:

"Act2A:62A-1.
Any individual, including a person licensed to practice any method of treatment of
human ailments, disease, pain, deformity, mental or physical condition, or licensed to render service ancillary thereto, who in good faith renders emergency care at the scene of an accident or emergency to the victim or victims thereof, shall not be liable for any civil damages as a result of any act or omissions by such person in rendering the emergency care.L. 1986"
 
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Sure. For instance when an airline passenger falls ill, passenger physicians often help out, usually at the request of the flight crew. Had it happen to me twice; the second time I was 4 months into med school so it was a question to me if I should help out in the event no physicians/nurses were aboard.
 
Stlblues17 said:
I used to work EMS. A random doctor (not your medical direction) on a highway accident is about as useful as anyone else, provided they don't get in the way of extraction/treatment.
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Depends on your state. A passerby licensed (in your state with valid ID) physician can take over patient care from EMS at the roadside and make all diagnosis/treatment. They can give us orders, administer medications etc. Only caveat is that they must assume all responsibility for the patient and they must accompany the patient on the transport to the hospital, and the treatments must be reasonable. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess malpractice insurance wouldn't be happy, especially if you're an radiologist. Although we do have ultrasound on our units!

This is the case in all 3 states I'm licensed in. I've only had it happen once in 5 years as paramedic though, it was an ER doc with his buddies from out of town.
 
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Fedekz said:
Depends on your state. A passerby licensed (in your state with valid ID) physician can take over patient care from EMS at the roadside and make all diagnosis/treatment. They can give us orders, administer medications etc. Only caveat is that they must assume all responsibility for the patient and they must accompany the patient on the transport to the hospital, and the treatments must be reasonable. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess malpractice insurance wouldn't be happy, especially if you're an radiologist. Although we do have ultrasound on our units!

This is the case in all 3 states I'm licensed in. I've only had it happen once in 5 years as paramedic though, it was an ER doc with his buddies from out of town.
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Fair enough. Let just say I would be up for stopping to offer assistance. But I would personally be weary of letting it known that I was a physician (when I finally become one that is).
 
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Stlblues17 said:
I used to work EMS. A random doctor (not your medical direction) on a highway accident is about as useful as anyone else, provided they don't get in the way of extraction/treatment.
Click to expand...

Fedekz said:
Depends on your state. A passerby licensed (in your state with valid ID) physician can take over patient care from EMS at the roadside and make all diagnosis/treatment. They can give us orders, administer medications etc. Only caveat is that they must assume all responsibility for the patient and they must accompany the patient on the transport to the hospital, and the treatments must be reasonable. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess malpractice insurance wouldn't be happy, especially if you're an radiologist. Although we do have ultrasound on our units!

This is the case in all 3 states I'm licensed in. I've only had it happen once in 5 years as paramedic though, it was an ER doc with his buddies from out of town.
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I was getting ready to post similar material. When there is no one else around, it is great to stop and help. However, if you are not trained to provide prehospital care, it is best to hand over the scene once those who are trained arrive.
 
Stlblues17 said:
Fair enough. Let just say I would be up for stopping to offer assistance. But I would personally be weary of letting it known that I was a physician (when I finally become one that is).
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This is a smart move. When I first started in healthcare, I found myself trying to get involved in every little incident I passed. Many years later, I find myself standing back in the shadows, and I usually only get involved if someone is actively dying.
 
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Why would I expose myself to liability for a patient I don't know? No pay and possibility of a lawsuit? Thanks but no thanks.
 
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gonnif said:
They certainly are permitted and "good Samaritan" laws can cover them to an extent. However, when a physician treats anyone medically, even at a random traffic accident, they are legally responsible as a physician would be. I add that because they could get sued for malpractice in such an action. While this is uncommon and most physicians whether at a traffic accident or in a restaurant or on a plane will respond to "is there a doctor?"
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Find me some cases of bystander physicians acting as good Samaritan's getting sued for their actions. Act in the patient's best interest and you'll be fine.
 
I think so. Off duty EMT's are protected by the Good Samaritan law.
 
Yes they can.
Also you don't have to say you are a physician, you can just do your thing and then bounce.
 
I have never been asked to do any emergency botox, though I hear it is an indication for impending social death for many unsuspecting housewives. Would that be covered under good samaritan, hypothetically?
 
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TooMuchResearch said:
Random people can and should perform CPR on pulse less individuals. Bystander CPR saves lives.
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What I meant was that random people do not perform CPR too often in these situations, because some don't even know what CPR is. I had to explain CPR to one of my friends a few months ago.
 
Psai said:
Why would I expose myself to liability for a patient I don't know? No pay and possibility of a lawsuit? Thanks but no thanks.
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you're gonna be such a great doctor Psai
 
alphamine said:
When I was driving home today, there was a massive accident on the freeway. A car had slammed into the wall on the side and 3 other cars were sprawled in the lanes. The paramedics and police weren't there yet, and I saw a group of people outside the car that hit the wall, surrounding a person on the ground. Then, it occurred to me: if there were a doctor driving by, would s/he be legally permitted to help that person? I know that they should, but what I mean is, would they be chastised for it afterwards, because they have no hospital ID or anything on them as proof?

Just a general question... and I couldn't find any answer for this on Google or SDN.
Click to expand...
Had this happen to me a couple weeks ago. Did not witness the accident, but 2 or 3 bystanders were already at the scene. The individual had already been extracted from the vehicle, and was lying on the ground writhing in pain. I had just left the hospital and was still in my scrubs and white coat. I was about to get out and help when I realized, what the hell am I going to do? The dude is alive, the ambulance will be there in minutes, and I'm going to feel like a tool when I show up there in my scrubs and have nothing to offer.
 
In a couple states you are actually legally obligated to provide assistance if it's reasonable to do so! For example, see Vermont:
  • § 519. Emergency medical care

    (a) A person who knows that another is exposed to grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the same can be rendered without danger or peril to himself or without interference with important duties owed to others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person unless that assistance or care is being provided by others.

    (b) A person who provides reasonable assistance in compliance with subsection (a) of this section shall not be liable in civil damages unless his acts constitute gross negligence or unless he will receive or expects to receive remuneration. Nothing contained in this subsection shall alter existing law with respect to tort liability of a practitioner of the healing arts for acts committed in the ordinary course of his practice.

    (c) A person who willfully violates subsection (a) of this section shall be fined not more than $100.00. (1967, No. 309 (Adj. Sess.), §§ 2-4, eff. March 22, 1968.)
Note subsection (b) which is pretty common to all states with Good Samaritan laws: you have no liability for helping unless you do something grossly negligent (read: really terrible/completely outside the scope of your training).

So help people if you can!
 
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When I was a kid in Brazil my family was coming back home from a long trip, and then we saw an accident with someone being pulled out of the car by some bystanders, so my dad (who is a physician there) immediately stopped the car and went to help. All I remember is that he stabilized the person's spine using a car seat that was ejected out (damn old cars lol) and some seat belt because by standers had already moved the person. He waited until the ambulance arrived and then came back to us so we could go on with our drive.

He did get a thank you letter from the victim he helped. He did have his hospital ID handy when the ambulance showed up. This was actually one of my inspirations for following his profession (I've seen close by most of the negatives too but that'd be off topic).

I think OP should simply worry about the patient and providing care to those in need. You can worry about the rest later.
 
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In most cases, calling 911, making sure the victim(s) and/or bystanders don't do more harm than good (eg trying to stand up or move when there is potential for spinal cord injury), and having the victim(s) transferred to a trauma center ASAP is the best thing you can do. Even if a car full of EM docs and trauma surgeon show up, without the resources of a trauma bay, besides doing BLS, there's little that they can offer. Secure the scene, make sure 911 is contacted, and get out of the way when help arrives. The faster you get the victim to a trauma center, the better the odds of survival. (and if you're doing CPR on an accident victim on-site, the chances of survival is already grim)
 
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group_theory said:
In most cases, calling 911, making sure the victim(s) and/or bystanders don't do more harm than good (eg trying to stand up or move when there is potential for spinal cord injury), and having the victim(s) transferred to a trauma center ASAP is the best thing you can do. Even if a car full of EM docs and trauma surgeon show up, without the resources of a trauma bay, besides doing BLS, there's little that they can offer. Secure the scene, make sure 911 is contacted, and get out of the way when help arrives. The faster you get the victim to a trauma center, the better the odds of survival. (and if you're doing CPR on an accident victim on-site, the chances of survival is already grim)
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Unless the guy's literally about to die and you have a military-trained doc/healthcare professional on hand. Have you ever seen Air Force pararescuemen? So intense!
 
alphamine said:
What I meant was that random people do not perform CPR too often in these situations, because some don't even know what CPR is. I had to explain CPR to one of my friends a few months ago.
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This is a problem I've experienced with everyday people. The shame is a circus monkey could be taught compression only CPR, which I agree it should be taught to the public more.

I apologize if any circus monkeys were offended by this post
 
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Tackycardigan said:
In a couple states you are actually legally obligated to provide assistance if it's reasonable to do so! For example, see Vermont:
  • § 519. Emergency medical care

    (a) A person who knows that another is exposed to grave physical harm shall, to the extent that the same can be rendered without danger or peril to himself or without interference with important duties owed to others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person unless that assistance or care is being provided by others.

    (b) A person who provides reasonable assistance in compliance with subsection (a) of this section shall not be liable in civil damages unless his acts constitute gross negligence or unless he will receive or expects to receive remuneration. Nothing contained in this subsection shall alter existing law with respect to tort liability of a practitioner of the healing arts for acts committed in the ordinary course of his practice.

    (c) A person who willfully violates subsection (a) of this section shall be fined not more than $100.00. (1967, No. 309 (Adj. Sess.), §§ 2-4, eff. March 22, 1968.)
Note subsection (b) which is pretty common to all states with Good Samaritan laws: you have no liability for helping unless you do something grossly negligent (read: really terrible/completely outside the scope of your training).

So help people if you can!
Click to expand...
Also true in Minnesota and Louisiana.
 
TooMuchResearch said:
And this convinces you to not do the right thing? 1/8 page article about a judge throwing out a lawsuit is hardly case law.
Click to expand...

me: no thanks because you can get sued
you: show me an article that says this
me: *shows article*
you: yes now i see that i was wrong and that people actually have been sued for this. thank you for correcting me
 
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