Are you happy with the salary?

[MD Dreams]

I'm probably gonna get a lot of smack for this. However, the average salary for an EM doc seems to be $120/hr + benefits. Are you happy with this amount? To me it seems a bit low. I realize that one can pull more shifts, but given the taxing nature of the specialty, is that really possible? Did anyone battle with this before choosing EM? Just trying to get a better perspective. Thanks in advance.

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[Telemachus]

If I cared about making the best salary possible, I would not have chosen medicine as a career field, period. There are other ways to make more money.

Is it adequate or reasonable compensation? Yes, I think so. And I say that in a vacuum, regardless of what other medical specialties are making. It may not be fair or equitable when compared to this or that specialty, but standing alone it seems fine. I mean, s--t, how much money do you think you need to be happy? Because if you aren't happy with X, what makes you think you'll be happy with 1.5X or 2X or 5X?

It doesn't matter how much money you make -- it matters how you view money (a means to an end vs. an end) and what you do with it.

 

[BKN]

I'm probably gonna get a lot of smack for this. However, the average salary for an EM doc seems to be $120/hr + benefits. Are you happy with this amount? To me it seems a bit low. I realize that one can pull more shifts, but given the taxing nature of the specialty, is that really possible? Did anyone battle with this before choosing EM? Just trying to get a better perspective. Thanks in advance.

I'm with Tele on this one. What I tell my residents is "If you can't be happy on 150K a year, you can't be happy. The problem is you, not the money."

May have to increase the number to 200K for those in NY. LA etc., but the principle holds.

 

[Ceez]

If I cared about making the best salary possible, I would not have chosen medicine as a career field, period. There are other ways to make more money.

Is it adequate or reasonable compensation? Yes, I think so. And I say that in a vacuum, regardless of what other medical specialties are making. It may not be fair or equitable when compared to this or that specialty, but standing alone it seems fine. I mean, s--t, how much money do you think you need to be happy? Because if you aren't happy with X, what makes you think you'll be happy with 1.5X or 2X or 5X?

It doesn't matter how much money you make -- it matters how you view money (a means to an end vs. an end) and what you do with it.

Medical Admin types (i.e. CEOs, other MBAs, etc) love people like you. You'll do the work happily, be content with your salary which is grossly inadequate for the amount of training, blood, sweat and tears you put in to it, not to mention the amount of money/profits you create...which mostly go to healthcare executives or help support a current system that allows these guys to exist and extract the enormous rents that they do.

 

[Hercules]

I'm probably gonna get a lot of smack for this. However, the average salary for an EM doc seems to be $120/hr + benefits. Are you happy with this amount? To me it seems a bit low. I realize that one can pull more shifts, but given the taxing nature of the specialty, is that really possible? Did anyone battle with this before choosing EM? Just trying to get a better perspective. Thanks in advance.

It seems like the pay ranges in general from $100-200 depending on multiple factors. Let's take the average of $150 and multiply that times three 12 hr shifts (even though I hate 12's). That gives you $5400 before taxes each week. Multiply that times 52 and you're at $281,000/yr with 4 days off a week. That doesn't count in any vacation weeks so maybe a little less. That's obviously a very rough estimate, but it sounds pretty sweet to me and is far more than I ever had growing up with plenty of time to enjoy it.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Medical Admin types (i.e. CEOs, other MBAs, etc) love people like you. You'll do the work happily, be content with your salary which is grossly inadequate for the amount of training, blood, sweat and tears you put in to it, not to mention the amount of money/profits you create...which mostly go to healthcare executives or help support a current system that allows these guys to exist and extract the enormous rents that they do.

I love this argument. Ceez ask yourself this... If hospital A is paying $80 per hour and the hospital across town is paying $150 and all other things being equal who do you think wont be able to fill their spots. EM docs like all others docs are a limited resource so wages tend to even out.

In life you can always pursue every available dollar, this will lead to sadness, depression and a lack of time to enjoy what you want. My wife took a job that paid much less so she could have more time with me, our family (when we have one) and time to enjoy whatever we will have. Beyond my interest in EM these same factors matter to me. I would rather be an EM doc working 35-40 hours per week and making 150K+ than making 450K and working 60-70 hours per week as an attending. Thats just me of course.

 

[Telemachus]

Medical Admin types (i.e. CEOs, other MBAs, etc) love people like you. You'll do the work happily, be content with your salary which is grossly inadequate for the amount of training, blood, sweat and tears you put in to it, not to mention the amount of money/profits you create...which mostly go to healthcare executives or help support a current system that allows these guys to exist and extract the enormous rents that they do.

Morticians love people like you. You live your life stressed out about whether or not you're getting screwed more than you are screwing someone else, and don't realize that your perpetual endurence of temporary misery for the next goal on the horizon is fool-hardy because there will always be another goal after that that requires you to endure yet more misery until you finally stroke out and die before retirement age leaving plenty of money for a nice funeral.... and all of this because you chose this career path because you thought you would like the destination and not because you enjoy the journey for its own merits.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Dont forget to stop and smell the roses people...enjoy the ride..

 

[deejayshakur]

That's obviously a very rough estimate, but it sounds pretty sweet to me and is far more than I ever had growing up with plenty of time to enjoy it.

QFT

 

[EctopicFetus]

Qft?

 

[USCDiver]

Medical Admin types (i.e. CEOs, other MBAs, etc) love people like you. You'll do the work happily, be content with your salary which is grossly inadequate for the amount of training, blood, sweat and tears you put in to it, not to mention the amount of money/profits you create...which mostly go to healthcare executives or help support a current system that allows these guys to exist and extract the enormous rents that they do.

I love people like Medical Admin types, because they do a job that would make me want to shoot myself if I had to do. More power to them if they can make 7 figures as long as I can live the life I want and support my family. Blood, sweat and tears? This is medical school and residency not building a bridge for the Japanese in WWII.

 

[deejayshakur]

Qft?

=quoted for truth

 

[abcxyz0123]

I love people like Medical Admin types, because they do a job that would make me want to shoot myself if I had to do. More power to them if they can make 7 figures as long as I can live the life I want and support my family. Blood, sweat and tears? This is medical school and residency not building a bridge for the Japanese in WWII.

haha. please keep going back and forth because this is great.

 

[turtle md]

=quoted for truth

I thought it meant:

quite fu(%ing true...

 

[J ROD]

I thought it meant:

quite fu(%ing true...

Yeah, I like that interpretation much better. It truly drives home the point.

 

[EctopicFetus]

The OP fell off the wagon..

 

[MD Dreams]

The OP fell off the wagon..

Tell me about it!

 

[chef_NU]

Medical Admin types (i.e. CEOs, other MBAs, etc) love people like you. You'll do the work happily, be content with your salary which is grossly inadequate for the amount of training, blood, sweat and tears you put in to it, not to mention the amount of money/profits you create...which mostly go to healthcare executives or help support a current system that allows these guys to exist and extract the enormous rents that they do.

I have to agree with Ceez on this one. Just because you want to be paid the market value for the work that you do doesn't mean that money is your life's only ambition. To those of you who are willing to work for less than your work is worth: why? Have some self respect and some desire for justice. What are you sacrificing for? Your corporate manager? This is part of the reason that healthcare reimbursements are going down the ****ter: a lot of doctors think they are too "noble" to complain about financial issues.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I have to agree with Ceez on this one. Just because you want to be paid the market value for the work that you do doesn't mean that money is your life's only ambition. To those of you who are willing to work for less than your work is worth: why? Have some self respect and some desire for justice. What are you sacrificing for? Your corporate manager? This is part of the reason that healthcare reimbursements are going down the ****ter: a lot of doctors think they are too "noble" to complain about financial issues.

Dude, at $120/hr I hardly think that EM docs are the reason. I think your anger is misplaced (if it is at all warranted, and I'm not saying that it is).

 

[automaton]

any EM doc that thinks they are worth more than 120/hr is just WRONG. if anything emergency physicians are overpaid. their hourly salaries are more than double what family physicians make in the same time, and they do not work any less than EPs. EPs make more than a majority of other physicians, to basically do primary care and/or triage. stop whining.

 

[Miami_med]

any EM doc that thinks they are worth more than 120/hr is just WRONG. if anything emergency physicians are overpaid. their hourly salaries are more than double what family physicians make in the same time, and they do not work any less than EPs. EPs make more than a majority of other physicians, to basically do primary care and/or triage. stop whining.

EM Doctors work a lot harder at work than most FPs. No codes and overnights in most FP clinics. That being said, they are paid better. If $120 isn't enough for you, there are many shortage areas that pay better. For me, the idea of 200k a year with 12 weeks vacation sounds just fine.

 

[ERMudPhud]

any EM doc that thinks they are worth more than 120/hr is just WRONG. if anything emergency physicians are overpaid. their hourly salaries are more than double what family physicians make in the same time, and they do not work any less than EPs. EPs make more than a majority of other physicians, to basically do primary care and/or triage. stop whining.

Let me be the first to reply, Fatty McFattypants!

 

[ElZorro]

don't sell us short- EPs may not work long, but they work hard. And, what we do is not just triage / walk in clinic as many suggest. Yes, that is a part of it, but we are also markedly more efficient, and quite frankly, better than FP docs in managing the emergent presentation of all kinds of medical problems and traumas. Just as FPs are better than us in long term management, so also we have our niche. Yes, our reimbursment is better than FP on the whole, but FP has several visits a day of follow up for chronic management, which often does not require even an exam. They also have well child exam, immunization, and people who just get a referral form and are on their way. So, should they get paid the same for this vs. an EM doc who might run 2 codes, 2 traumas, a DKA, MI, lose a pt and have to talk to the family, and yes, a hefty dose of cough/cold/suture?

 

[NinerNiner999]

The notion of comparing an EP to any other field of medicine is ridiculous As a specialty we deserve higher compensation for several reasons in addition to those given above. 1) Procedures - every intubation, central line, lumbar puncture, cardioversion, critical care management, trauma management, emergent C-section, laceration repair, etc are time-consuming and require extensive training to perform properly. 2) Variety - we do not see the average "primary care visit" that other practitioners do. We are often equipped with minimal patient information and little to no past medical history and as such, our time is spent working up the patients we see to treat them properly, hence the level 5 billing. 3) Hours - while from the myopic view it seems like our schedules are great, we are constantly alternating day and night hours to maintain an emergency department that remains open for 24 hours, meaning we see the patients of all of the other primary care specialists who are at home sleeping. 4) Malpractice - while our malpractice premiums do not approach those of OB's or Neurosurgeons, we do manage their patients (and all others) and as such, our premiums are higher than your average primary care providers.

Personally, I would like to see a trend toward higher compensation, as volumes increase, pressures to meet timelines for treatment (3-hour window to give abx for pneumonia as an example) increase, and more and more physicians from all specialties continue to refer their patients to us.

Think about how many patients get sent to us by primary doctors on referral. Think about how many patients are told by their surgeons that they need to go to the ER to be seen. On the flipside, think about how many times specialists are consulted to the ED, and think about how many other patients that could have had those consults were managed appropriately in the ED without needing outside help. I submit that EP's perform an additional service to the medical community by managing the patients that other physicians do not have the time (or scheduled hours) to see on their own. I could show up to work, shut my mouth, take the endless bashing I recieve on a daily basis from overworked consultants who incessantly complain about how atrocious the ER is and how incompetent ER docs are at managing their patients. Instead, I choose to practice my field content to ignore the negative comments of others and instead, seek the compensation I deserve for doing the work that other doctors are not around to do themselves. In addition to my paycheck and future reimbursement as an EP, I should also ask for a daily thank you from everyone I consult when I fix their patients and send them on their way. Knowing that the latter will never happen, I expect to be well compensated for the professionalism I endure.

 

[Seaglass]

What Niner said +1.

 

[docB]

any EM doc that thinks they are worth more than 120/hr is just WRONG. if anything emergency physicians are overpaid. their hourly salaries are more than double what family physicians make in the same time, and they do not work any less than EPs. EPs make more than a majority of other physicians, to basically do primary care and/or triage. stop whining.

I'll second Phud's F Mc F and add a "Don't Feed The Trolls."

 

[MedDeac]

Personally, I would like to see a trend toward higher compensation, as volumes increase, pressures to meet timelines for treatment (3-hour window to give abx for pneumonia as an example) increase, and more and more physicians from all specialties continue to refer their patients to us.

great post niner. although I believe you'll get all of the above minus the higher compensation in the future.

 

[Bobblehead]

It seems like the pay ranges in general from $100-200 depending on multiple factors. Let's take the average of $150 and multiply that times three 12 hr shifts (even though I hate 12's). That gives you $5400 before taxes each week. Multiply that times 52 and you're at $281,000/yr with 4 days off a week. That doesn't count in any vacation weeks so maybe a little less. That's obviously a very rough estimate, but it sounds pretty sweet to me and is far more than I ever had growing up with plenty of time to enjoy it.

Just to put it into a more general context, a gross income of $281000 per year will put you into the 33% tax bracket. Without factoring in other above line deductions or exemptions you end up paying about $79200 in federal taxes at that rate. If you assume you live in a relatively high tax state such as Massachusetts you take another 5.3% of the federal AGI off the top for $14800. For 2006 the Social Security tax rate of 6.20% will hit the ceiling of $94,200 for another $5,800. Medicare takes off 1.45% without a ceiling for $4000.

ACEP lists rough malpractice insurance costs from $50000-$100000 per year http://www.acep.org/webportal/PatientsConsumers/critissues/liab/medliability.htm

From the gross of $280000 after taxes you get $177000. After malpractice insurance this could be anywhere from $77000-$127000. This is still an incredible amount for most people in the country but bear in mind that the lifestyle a lot of physicians have become accustomed to carries with it some higher costs (expenses rise to meet income).

Now add in health & dental insurance and some retirement savings since no one really wants to work forever and you still get a nice living wage but nowhere near the original number. That's why I'm not a big fan of gross income figures.

 

[Hercules]

From the gross of $280000 after taxes you get $177000. After malpractice insurance this could be anywhere from $77000-$127000. This is still an incredible amount for most people in the country but bear in mind that the lifestyle a lot of physicians have become accustomed to carries with it some higher costs (expenses rise to meet income).

Now add in health & dental insurance and some retirement savings since no one really wants to work forever and you still get a nice living wage but nowhere near the original number. That's why I'm not a big fan of gross income figures.

Yeah, my number was definitely a napkin sketch simplification of income. That said I seriously doubt that the take home for most EM guys is below 100K. I know the guys in the small democratic group in my home town pull well above the statistics I see in all of the salary surveys. I completely recognize malpractice premiums as a problem, but 50-100K is much higher than I've heard from guys in practice. I think that several of positions that pay an hourly rate often cover malpractice as one of the benefits. Since all I have is hearsay, I'd be interested to hear some takes on this from the posters here who are already in the real world or job-hunting.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Just to put it into a more general context, a gross income of $281000 per year will put you into the 33% tax bracket. Without factoring in other above line deductions or exemptions you end up paying about $79200 in federal taxes at that rate. If you assume you live in a relatively high tax state such as Massachusetts you take another 5.3% of the federal AGI off the top for $14800. For 2006 the Social Security tax rate of 6.20% will hit the ceiling of $94,200 for another $5,800. Medicare takes off 1.45% without a ceiling for $4000.

There are a few problems with your assumptions.. the most obvious is no deductions.. if you are an attending and own a home you will save roughly an extra $1000 per month in mortgage interest. Also, if you are "self employed" and have to pay your own malpractice thats a tax deduction.. Also health insurance and retirement are all deductions... Saying you dont want to include deductions doesnt make a lot of sense because for every $3 you deduct you get an extra $1 in your pocket...

 

[DrQuinn]

I don't know any current EP who is paying malpractice out of their own pocket, unless they are an IC. My malpractice is paid for by the hospital. Well, when I start July 15th, anyways.

Q

 

[NinerNiner999]

All salary surveys list averages after malpractice and expenses but before taxes - read the fine print. Don't consider malpractice in these calculations...

 

[novacek88]

If I cared about making the best salary possible, I would not have chosen medicine as a career field, period. There are other ways to make more money.

Like what, joining the NBA? Making movies in Hollywood? Being a member of the Royal family? The people who make these statements are almost always those who never held a job in the real world prior to entering medical school. And by real job, I'm not talking about your job as a bar tender, phlebotomist, EMT or lab tech you took between college and medical school. Those of us who worked in corporate America in any capacity laugh when naive medical students and other physicians make the famous: "You can make more money in other jobs." That is such rubbish. A physician once said this on Vault.com, the business and law version of SDN and nearly the entire forum blasted this guy and said how they wished they went to medical school.

I can promise you that you won't make more money in other fields. Most CEO's make under 250K and many of these earn between 100-150K. Business is not like medicine. You don't just show up with your degree and command a huge salary. There are no sure-fire paths to earning a lot of money as there is in medicine. Becoming a CEO has as much if not more to do with chance as it does with how hard you work. There is no class rank or Step I score that will guarantee you an executive position as there is with guaranteeing you a residency in medicine. There are thousands of companies in the United States. Just because you read about Bill Gates and other CEO's of Fortune 500 companies, don't think the majority of CEOs make anywhere close to that type of money. Most lawyers earn less than 100K per year. And even the big corporate attorneys who make 120K out of law school never make partner and many don't see over 200K in their life once they leave their big firm. Then there is the computer programmer myth. That one makes me laugh the most. I always hear: "My buddy made 100K right out of college", yeah maybe if he graduated from MIT during the dotcom era. The grass is always greener on the other side. Physicians need to understand that they earn an incredible amount of money. Did you know less than 1% of the U.S. population earns 200K or more? Most fields of medicine offers compensation of 200K +

Physicians earn their pay. I'm not suggesting otherwise, but they make a considerable amount of money despite all of the negative hype you hear. And when you add the job security, independence (not having a boss) and respect associated with the job, it's certainly worth the journey. Those of us who held jobs before coming to medical school know what it's really like. Yes, medicine is not perfect. It certainly has its own drawbacks but I would do it again in a second if I had to. I know I would never want to be like the many 40 year old engineers, lawyers and business professionals who were layed off and are still looking for jobs or had to take a huge pay cut and move their family to another state. Medicine offers many advantages that you are unaware of.

 

[Telemachus]

Like what, joining the NBA? Making movies in Hollywood? Being a member of the Royal family? The people who make these statements are almost always those who never held a job in the real world prior to entering medical school. And by real job, I'm not talking about your job as a bar tender, phlebotomist, EMT or lab tech you took between college and medical school. Those of us who worked in corporate America in any capacity laugh when naive medical students and other physicians make the famous: "You can make more money in other jobs." That is such rubbish. A physician once said this on Vault.com, the business and law version of SDN and nearly the entire forum blasted this guy and said how they wished they went to medical school.

I can promise you that you won't make more money in other fields. Most CEO's make under 250K and many of these earn between 100-150K. Business is not like medicine. You don't just show up with your degree and command a huge salary. There are no sure-fire paths to earning a lot of money as there is in medicine. Becoming a CEO has as much if not more to do with chance as it does with how hard you work. There is no class rank or Step I score that will guarantee you an executive position as there is with guaranteeing you a residency in medicine. There are thousands of companies in the United States. Just because you read about Bill Gates and other CEO's of Fortune 500 companies, don't think the majority of CEOs make anywhere close to that type of money. Most lawyers earn less than 100K per year. And even the big corporate attorneys who make 120K out of law school never make partner and many don't see over 200K in their life once they leave their big firm. Then there is the computer programmer myth. That one makes me laugh the most. I always hear: "My buddy made 100K right out of college", yeah maybe if he graduated from MIT during the dotcom era. The grass is always greener on the other side. Physicians need to understand that they earn an incredible amount of money. Did you know less than 1% of the U.S. population earns 200K or more? Most fields of medicine offers compensation of 200K +

Physicians earn their pay. I'm not suggesting otherwise, but they make a considerable amount of money despite all of the negative hype you hear. And when you add the job security, independence (not having a boss) and respect associated with the job, it's certainly worth the journey. Those of us who held jobs before coming to medical school know what it's really like. Yes, medicine is not perfect. It certainly has its own drawbacks but I would do it again in a second if I had to. I know I would never want to be like the many 40 year old engineers, lawyers and business professionals who were layed off and are still looking for jobs or had to take a huge pay cut and move their family to another state. Medicine offers many advantages that you are unaware of.

Hello? Hello up there!!! Yes you, I'm talking to you!!! That's a mighty tall horse you are riding! Wow.... Where did you find such a big horse?

Oh, that's right. You're on that high horse because of some miserable life experience you had that makes you think a) you know everything, and b) other people don't.

You're right about one thing: being a doctor is better than being a corporate drone. Maybe you had to figure that out the hard way, instead of by being an outside observor. Sorry it made you such a miserable SOB.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Like what, joining the NBA? Making movies in Hollywood? Being a member of the Royal family? The people who make these statements are almost always those who never held a job in the real world prior to entering medical school. And by real job, I'm not talking about your job as a bar tender, phlebotomist, EMT or lab tech you took between college and medical school. Those of us who worked in corporate America in any capacity laugh when naive medical students and other physicians make the famous: "You can make more money in other jobs." That is such rubbish. A physician once said this on Vault.com, the business and law version of SDN and nearly the entire forum blasted this guy and said how they wished they went to medical school.

I can promise you that you won't make more money in other fields. Most CEO's make under 250K and many of these earn between 100-150K. Business is not like medicine. You don't just show up with your degree and command a huge salary. There are no sure-fire paths to earning a lot of money as there is in medicine. Becoming a CEO has as much if not more to do with chance as it does with how hard you work. There is no class rank or Step I score that will guarantee you an executive position as there is with guaranteeing you a residency in medicine. There are thousands of companies in the United States. Just because you read about Bill Gates and other CEO's of Fortune 500 companies, don't think the majority of CEOs make anywhere close to that type of money. Most lawyers earn less than 100K per year. And even the big corporate attorneys who make 120K out of law school never make partner and many don't see over 200K in their life once they leave their big firm. Then there is the computer programmer myth. That one makes me laugh the most. I always hear: "My buddy made 100K right out of college", yeah maybe if he graduated from MIT during the dotcom era. The grass is always greener on the other side. Physicians need to understand that they earn an incredible amount of money. Did you know less than 1% of the U.S. population earns 200K or more? Most fields of medicine offers compensation of 200K +

Physicians earn their pay. I'm not suggesting otherwise, but they make a considerable amount of money despite all of the negative hype you hear. And when you add the job security, independence (not having a boss) and respect associated with the job, it's certainly worth the journey. Those of us who held jobs before coming to medical school know what it's really like. Yes, medicine is not perfect. It certainly has its own drawbacks but I would do it again in a second if I had to. I know I would never want to be like the many 40 year old engineers, lawyers and business professionals who were layed off and are still looking for jobs or had to take a huge pay cut and move their family to another state. Medicine offers many advantages that you are unaware of.

While I agree with much of what you said there are a few things I think also need to be considered. While it is true that most people in business and law make way less than MDs you have to keep this in mind. Getting an MD isnt like getting a JD. Truth is you dont have to be smart at all to get a JD or get into law school, you do have to be smart to go to a good law school. So here is my little addendum to your post. If you go to a top notch law school and are nothing more than average you will make 125K plus bonuses etc if you want. My wife went to the U of Chicago law and at the mid sizew firm she worked at avg partners (non equity) made 400K+. At the big firms its 1 million plus.

 

[Bobblehead]

There are a few problems with your assumptions.. the most obvious is no deductions.. if you are an attending and own a home you will save roughly an extra $1000 per month in mortgage interest. Also, if you are "self employed" and have to pay your own malpractice thats a tax deduction.. Also health insurance and retirement are all deductions... Saying you dont want to include deductions doesnt make a lot of sense because for every $3 you deduct you get an extra $1 in your pocket...

The assumptions I made are because they simply things. If you are deducting $1000 per month in mortgage interest how much are you PAYING after taxes to get that deduction?

If you are self-employed you are not just paying FICA but you are paying self-employment tax. While you get 1/2 back as an above the line deduction you are also paying more in taxes overall.

You don't pay taxes on tax-deferred retirement income, but you also don't get to spend it so it will reduce your take-home pay.

The more accurate you make the estimate the less broadly it can be applied.

 

[Miami_med]

No one included student loan payments in these numbers? For new medical students who missed the low interest rate gravy train, these could top $36,000/year with no deductions due to high incomes!

This is the only thing I have ever really worried about when it came to money and medicine.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Bottom line is if I make 200K per yr (med mal paid by hospital) live in decent house say $600K save 15K in IRA and pay my health insurance. Ill have about 120K left to pay my mortgage, student debt and enjoy life.. thats fine for me.. Plus if you are married your tax burden is less.

 

[EctopicFetus]

The assumptions I made are because they simply things. If you are deducting $1000 per month in mortgage interest how much are you PAYING after taxes to get that deduction?

If you are self-employed you are not just paying FICA but you are paying self-employment tax. While you get 1/2 back as an above the line deduction you are also paying more in taxes overall.

You don't pay taxes on tax-deferred retirement income, but you also don't get to spend it so it will reduce your take-home pay.

The more accurate you make the estimate the less broadly it can be applied.

I think at the bare minimum some assumptions will apply to everyone.. Health insurance.. Some mortgage some retirement.. etc..Using those numbers it doesnt look quite as bad.. clearly we are making $600K but a decent life can certainly be had...

 

[docB]

Like what, joining the NBA? Making movies in Hollywood? Being a member of the Royal family? The people who make these statements are almost always those who never held a job in the real world prior to entering medical school...

He actually does make a good point which is that a lot of us (including me) make the argument that society needs to compensate us at a certain level or else we'll bail on medicine and make more money on some other field. We generally imply that that field would be less public service oriented than medicine. In reality we mean that if compensation drops future prospects won't go into medicine which may be true but weakens the punch of our argument. In any case the point that few of us could in reality quit medicine and hire on in some other job that pays the same is well taken. Unless Trump is really impressed by the ability to stick tubes in people I won't be winning the Apprentice any time soon.

I will say that my friends who went corporate had a 7 year head start on me and even though I'm making more fresh out of school they had no debt and (if you assume ~$50K/yr avg over those 7 years) a $350K head start. My freinds that went law had a 4 year advantage, ~1/2 my loans and higher pay than the corp guys.

When I make that srgument I'm usually saying that I would accept less money in a non medical field assuming it would also have less stress, less liability and better hours.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I dont think people are saying they would drop out of medicine.. rather that if they wanted to make mucho dinero they would have not gone to med school and gone into a different field.

Take law.. forget the signing bonus, $125K 1st yr out, then about $140K next yr then say 10K extra until partner then the real money flows..
So say the 4 yr advantage (plus summer money where they make 10K per month for 2 months)... over the last yr of med school (people fly them out to see them...) and 3 years of residency... Lawyers lead by a lot.. So say 4th yr of med school costs 45K (living expenses included in debt) then say you make 45K each yr in residency (way low).... Over those 4 yrs you make 90K.. Now the attorney 125K+140+150+160... 575K vs the 90K in medicine.. now say you make the 216K your first yr as an attending.. the lawyer is making 170K... and you need to catch up by 485K.... since EM docs dont make much more yr to yr like lawyers (til they hit partner) it is clear you make more money as a "good" lawyer than as an EM doc.. Now NeuroSurg might be a different story...

 

[Mutterkuchen]

Hello? Hello up there!!! Yes you, I'm talking to you!!! That's a mighty tall horse you are riding! Wow.... Where did you find such a big horse?

Oh, that's right. You're on that high horse because of some miserable life experience you had that makes you think a) you know everything, and b) other people don't.

You're right about one thing: being a doctor is better than being a corporate drone. Maybe you had to figure that out the hard way, instead of by being an outside observor. Sorry it made you such a miserable SOB.

I don't really understand this personal attack. Everything he said is true. There are acenectol examples of young grads making $100,000+, but they few and far between. In my circle of 10ish friends, all of whom are college graduates with very high GPAs, the only ones making 6 figures are the 2 doctors and 1 guy who, interestingly, is a union welder.

Going to medical school is the only way to be guaranteed a 6 figure salary.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Your kidding right? I went to a good undergrad and of my close firends only those in B school or residents arent making over 100K.

Here where they work..
Marketing/Prod Development at Medtronic
Business development Sprint/Nextel
Bus Development Amgen
I-banking at Barclays
I Banking at Bank Of America
Not sure of title but works at Wyeth Pharma
boutique consulting
and then about 5 lawyers at various firms.. and none of these lawyers are people I met at my wifes old firm..

Making 6 figures isnt what it used to be..

 

[EctopicFetus]

I don't really understand this personal attack. Everything he said is true. There are acenectol examples of young grads making $100,000+, but they few and far between. In my circle of 10ish friends, all of whom are college graduates with very high GPAs, the only ones making 6 figures are the 2 doctors and 1 guy who, interestingly, is a union welder.

Going to medical school is the only way to be guaranteed a 6 figure salary.

Going to a top notch law or Business school comes with the same guarantee and in law you also make some good $$$ in the summers. Starting salaries for associates are 125-145K depending on city.

 

[sdnetrocks]

Going to a top notch law or Business school comes with the same guarantee and in law you also make some good $$$ in the summers. Starting salaries for associates are 125-145K depending on city.

Yes, except in medicine, you DON'T have to go to a top notch school, or be a top notch student.

Even the last student in the class at the worst medical school in the US can be assured that they will make 6 figures.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Yes, except in medicine, you DON'T have to go to a top notch school, or be a top notch student.

Even the last student in the class at the worst medical school in the US can be assured that they will make 6 figures.

Ahh the logical flaw here though is how many people CANT get into medical school... To do well enough in undergrad to have a chance at med school you likely would have had the option to go to a top notch law school. If you can get into med school you can go to a top 15 law school which would then guarantee you some good $$$.

So in the end med school is like a good law school.. once you are in you are guaranteed the $$$.

Even the last student in the class at the worst medical school in the US can be assured that they will make 6 figures.

Same can be said for a top notch law school.

 

[Telemachus]

Even the last student in the class at the worst medical school in the US can be assured that they will make 6 figures.

That's a little overstated. The national average salaries of just about every specialty is over $100K, but salaries range widely depending on location and patient population. There are Peds, Fam Med, and Psych people in the "wrong" places with the "wrong" patients who make less than 6 figures.

 

[irrka]

one word: dentistry

 

[Miami_med]

Um, I will just point out that those that make money after law school have to be LAWYERS!!!! I think most of us had the grades to do that and CHOSE not to. I worked in a law office for about 7 months, and as interesting as things could be, I don't think I would ever want to do that work for any amount of money.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Um, I will just point out that those that make money after law school have to be LAWYERS!!!! I think most of us had the grades to do that and CHOSE not to. I worked in a law office for about 7 months, and as interesting as things could be, I don't think I would ever want to do that work for any amount of money.

The point clearly isnt choice but rather when people say... " if i wanted to make the most money I wouldnt have gone into medicine" this is whats being debated.. Obviously being a lawyer blows... but if you were chasing the almighty $$$$ it would be an option..