How is the lifestyle and pay for an army/airforce pathologist? any ideas? thanks
ARMY Pathologist
- Thread starter Lemuel
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Well there are several of us who hang around here, but I'll share.
Lifestyle: Good (M-F: 8-4/5 at a tertiary, probably even better than that a smaller place). I've only been at tertiary so we get pretty great cases, but we don't have a really 'active' consult service so it's bread-and-butter pathology with zebra sprinkles. The real fly in the ointment is deploying to Iraq/Afghanistan. We're more-or-less useless to the 'real' Army so deploying is pretty unusual (but can happen). Other specialities get hit with this about every other year or so. But path is a nice little oasis.
Pay: Could always be better. During residency it's great because you make more than civilian residents (~70K+). After you'll be making in/above the academics pay range, less than private. Three years post-residency (7 years in) I currently net $8421.22 take home each month ($102,254.64) plus annual doctor and specialty bonuses of $15k + $20k (taxed at 25%: 26250) so I net 128,504.64 this year. There is an additional bonus that you get if you decide to extend after your initial obligation payback (I'm not currently eligible for that) up to $30k added to the other bonuses. If you stay in and shoot for retirement ~20 years, current mid career (12-15 years) you'll net around $160 and end-career (18-low 20's) you'll net around $200. You can "retire" at 20 years and get 1/2 of the base-pay (does not include bonuses, which royally sucks) for waking up in the morning which currently nets you around 55K a year for an O-6 until you die. For me that will be age 46, so there is plenty of time to go to the private sector (but let's face it, we'll ALL be working for the gov't by that time) and still collect that 55k x 20-30 years.
But there is zero overhead for anything except your own books. Any reasonable test can get ordered and the amount of immunos you can ordered is only restricted by the amount of tissue you have left. We take care of our people pretty good.
But do yourself a favor: do not join the Air Force or the Navy. The Army is the largest medical system of the three so you have a much better chance of doing what you want to do. The Air Force's medical system is completely broken (likely because they do not have a separate Medical Command, their line pukes get to make all of their decisions for them). And the Navy hates their doctors (and it shows!) and makes it hard to get promoted (Army currently selected at >80% for first timers to O-5 and O-6, the Navy is somewhere south of 50%, so this affects pay and morale). Also the Navy is the only pathology training in the US that still requires their residents to do an intern year first... that is because their ships and the Marines need a lot of minimally-trained people to hand out aspirin and freeze genital warts off of a very healthy young population. So if you don't want to do those things definitely do not Go Navy. Army has a lot of problems too, but it is probably the least-worse.
Lifestyle: Good (M-F: 8-4/5 at a tertiary, probably even better than that a smaller place). I've only been at tertiary so we get pretty great cases, but we don't have a really 'active' consult service so it's bread-and-butter pathology with zebra sprinkles. The real fly in the ointment is deploying to Iraq/Afghanistan. We're more-or-less useless to the 'real' Army so deploying is pretty unusual (but can happen). Other specialities get hit with this about every other year or so. But path is a nice little oasis.
Pay: Could always be better. During residency it's great because you make more than civilian residents (~70K+). After you'll be making in/above the academics pay range, less than private. Three years post-residency (7 years in) I currently net $8421.22 take home each month ($102,254.64) plus annual doctor and specialty bonuses of $15k + $20k (taxed at 25%: 26250) so I net 128,504.64 this year. There is an additional bonus that you get if you decide to extend after your initial obligation payback (I'm not currently eligible for that) up to $30k added to the other bonuses. If you stay in and shoot for retirement ~20 years, current mid career (12-15 years) you'll net around $160 and end-career (18-low 20's) you'll net around $200. You can "retire" at 20 years and get 1/2 of the base-pay (does not include bonuses, which royally sucks) for waking up in the morning which currently nets you around 55K a year for an O-6 until you die. For me that will be age 46, so there is plenty of time to go to the private sector (but let's face it, we'll ALL be working for the gov't by that time) and still collect that 55k x 20-30 years.
But there is zero overhead for anything except your own books. Any reasonable test can get ordered and the amount of immunos you can ordered is only restricted by the amount of tissue you have left. We take care of our people pretty good.
But do yourself a favor: do not join the Air Force or the Navy. The Army is the largest medical system of the three so you have a much better chance of doing what you want to do. The Air Force's medical system is completely broken (likely because they do not have a separate Medical Command, their line pukes get to make all of their decisions for them). And the Navy hates their doctors (and it shows!) and makes it hard to get promoted (Army currently selected at >80% for first timers to O-5 and O-6, the Navy is somewhere south of 50%, so this affects pay and morale). Also the Navy is the only pathology training in the US that still requires their residents to do an intern year first... that is because their ships and the Marines need a lot of minimally-trained people to hand out aspirin and freeze genital warts off of a very healthy young population. So if you don't want to do those things definitely do not Go Navy. Army has a lot of problems too, but it is probably the least-worse.
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That's great info DrBloodmoney. Just to be certain, when you say "net", you are referring to you net pay after federal income taxes, employment taxes, etc. are deducted from your gross pay, correct? I realize this is a simple understanding for most, but I've seen this mistake been made countless times by folks when discussing pay - plus, it's inevitable that someone will ask this question at some point - might as well get it out of the way...
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Yeah that is all post-tax. It's easier to reduce it to that because a healthy portion of your gross pay is actually not taxed (~3000/month (for me because I live in a high cost-of-living area) for your housing and subsistence allowances depending on where you live).
So for my net income above, it could be up to 10k less if you live in a lower COL area.
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useful info. but i think i read some where that army med requires u to do an internship or something, am i onto anything here?
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That was the case prior to 2003. 2003 was the first year that they allowed people to go in straight from medical school. Now that is the routine, expected pattern for people entering path residency in the Army (unless the did another residency before or some other bizarre path).
DrBloodmoney, what is the difference between active duty and army reserve pathologist? Wich one is the best way to go?
Also, after you finish residency, would you be able to apply to fellowships the same way as your civilian counterpart?
Thank you
Also, after you finish residency, would you be able to apply to fellowships the same way as your civilian counterpart?
Thank you
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On a related note, what is the deal with the "Army reserve pathologist" ads on the CAP website. It looks like numerous cities.
Are you just a regular pathologist who is in the reserves (like other jobs) or are you a pathologist who works full time in the Army? I don't get it.
Are you just a regular pathologist who is in the reserves (like other jobs) or are you a pathologist who works full time in the Army? I don't get it.
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I don't have too much experience with reserve pathologists. I am not sure what they do through the year (weekend a month? I don't know what they would do). We have had a reserve guy come and hang out with us for his two weeks on active duty for the past 2-3 years. We had him mostly looking at our mucosal biopsies and covering frozens.
Fellowships work a little different. You have to get approved by the Army to do one. You can only do board certified ones, and they only train what they need. They generally say about a year in advance what they want to train and then people apply (2011 cycle for us is 2 dermpaths, 1 transfusion and 1 neuropath), but you can apply for what you want and if no one applies for transfusion, for example, they will generally pick someone for something else (we get 4 fellowship slots per year currently in Army pathology). The really beautiful thing about them is that you get your full pay during fellowship, but they add on more obligation (2 years extra if you do one in the civilian world). I'll be doing one in 2012 and I will probably net about $145k/year to do it. Generally after you do a fellowship you will be kept at one of the larger medcens (Walter Reed- DC, Brooke- San Antonio, Madigan- Tacoma) because they like to keep the fellowship-trained folks at our residency programs to help teach. The full pay is nice because you can usually snag an accredited, but unfunded, position at a nice/top-tier fellowship that would otherwise go unfilled.
Those ads on the different sites (CAP, etc) are put up by recruiters. I would guess that there are so many because each individual recruiter is trying to boost his/her numbers and they probably have some unique identifier so that they get credit.
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Hmm, I would consider being a reserve Army pathologist under the agreement I would join at least as a Full Bird Col., but perferably as a 1-star.
Are there 1-star Pathologists Blood?
Also I would want some type of commando training, but that would be negotiable.
I would also need to roll into sign outs bearing the new M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle and dressed in a Ghillie suit.
I've heard of Full Bird Col. Pathologists, but not General Pathologists.
You might be tapped to be a general medical officer instead of doing path.
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I wanted ninja training, but instead got some Jedi training. You never know what you are going to get, so you need to be flexible.
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Guy I rotated with in med school retired as a 1 star, was an Army reservist. Functioned as a BN commander, I believe...deployed to Gulf 1 and ran a CSH.
Reserves are the only branch that have slots for pathologists; the Guard doesn't have slots (unless you want to go to flight school and get deployed to the theater doing flight medicine).
Careers differ greatly in the Reserve vs Active Duty, particularly in terms of deployments. I'm not entirely sure how the AD deployments go in terms of time frame, but Reserve is 90 days BOG (+a little time for ramp up & demob). I'm not sure how responsibilties work, however...I've heard everything from reservists backfill BAMC & WR, to backfill Germany & Italy, to "all they do is blood bank & forensics," so I have no idea...would be nice to find out (anyone know please PM me).
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For the active duty there are no pathologist (61U) deployable billets. The last one in Iraq was closed out a few years ago. However, pathologists are deploying (usually for 6 months) as administrators at this time. And the vast majority of those positions go to people who volunteer for career-promotion reasons.
There are no active duty practicing pathologist general officers, we top out at Colonel. In order to get that star you have to give up full-time practice and take administrative/leadership (run the hospital)-type positions. In other fields some of these general officers still practice, but it's only on a part-time basis.
DrBloodmoney, I just want to get something clear. You are saying that you will be doing a fellowship next year right. Does that mean you have to repay the army with for example 3 years after residency before you can apply for fellowship? Im assuming you did the FAP or Financial Assistance Plan during your residency. Is that how it works? or can you do a fellowship before you start repaying the army? How competitive are the fellowship spots in the armed forces?
thank you
thank you
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No, you can apply for a fellowship anytime including for the year where you will be graduating for residency. The military does this really bizarre system of 'points' for determining who gets which fellowship (if more than one person is applying). It is not really meritocratic as this system favors those who have been staff physicians. So basically if you are a resident, and someone is a staff (even for one year) you almost cannot be chosen over them (ask GeoLeo lol). So it can be somewhat competitive, and they'll only train what they decide that they need and only if you can get boarded in something (so you can't do a surg path fellowship, for example, but heme/cyto/forensics/neuro/forensics etc are fine).
I was HPSP and I am in the 3rd year of payback post-residency. So I currently have one year left in my obligation. Doing the fellowship on the outside (I was able to snag an accredited, but unfunded position that would have otherwise gone unfilled at a very nice civilian program) buys me 2 extra years of payback. Kind of an unfair trade, but I'd rather do that (as opposed to leaving the military post-commitment to do a fellowship) because I get to do fellowship and maintain my pay during fellowship (~$130k after taxes this year) while I do the fellowship and I get to stay on active duty (which counts towards my 20 years for retirement, if I decide to stay in).
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But what is bread-and-butter for the military? I imagine that there is much less neoplastic disease, based on the age distribution. Plenty of pap-smears, I assume, but what types of cases do you mostly get? Is there any specifically military pathology? Maybe an extra helping of leishmaniasis?
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Ton of paps. The vast majority of the patient care at the major military medical centers is taking care of the military beneficiaries, these are the folks who are entitled to care because they are either current active duty (and their families) and retired military and their spouses. The retired population is huge and is far larger than the number of people on active duty. Naturally, since the active duty folks are pretty healthy, most of pathology's business comes from the retired beneficiaries. They have all of the same problems that old people on the outside have. Except that for a lot of these guys, there was a significant military culture of smoking. So bottom line, we see a lot of cancer (kids and adults).
We do have some military specific stuff, leish and a lot of malaria being the best examples.
Yes, you could do a second residency if you want.
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There are 3 Army training programs: MAMC at Ft. Lewis, BAMC at Ft. Sam Houston, and Walter Reed.
The military residency is not a high-volume endeavor. They are comparable to a small university or community program. On average each see 15-20k surgical cases. that's average. There are research opportunities, especially to those who are motivated. Each of the training MEDCENs has a clinical investigation group with space, funding, etc. There is a tropical medicine course offered by USUHS that is probably one of the best in the world. Several of our residents have gone to it. There isn't much of that, though, on a day to day basis.
MAMC is the only training program in the Army associated with a deploying force post. However, there are staff pathologist positions at many of the big infantry bases - Ft. Hood, Ft. Benning, Ft. Bragg, etc. I couldn't tell you what your chances of colocalization would be because that's also up to your husband's command.
Drop me a PM if you have any other specific questions.
The military residency is not a high-volume endeavor. They are comparable to a small university or community program. On average each see 15-20k surgical cases. that's average. There are research opportunities, especially to those who are motivated. Each of the training MEDCENs has a clinical investigation group with space, funding, etc. There is a tropical medicine course offered by USUHS that is probably one of the best in the world. Several of our residents have gone to it. There isn't much of that, though, on a day to day basis.
MAMC is the only training program in the Army associated with a deploying force post. However, there are staff pathologist positions at many of the big infantry bases - Ft. Hood, Ft. Benning, Ft. Bragg, etc. I couldn't tell you what your chances of colocalization would be because that's also up to your husband's command.
Drop me a PM if you have any other specific questions.
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This post keeps getting reanimated 
I'm wondering if these Army Pathology experiences I've read on SDN are still applicable, since it's been about 5 years?
Many seem to hate the HPSP, but they weren't pathologists.
HPSP sounds doable for someone interested in Pathology. The residencies sound great. Sounds like Army pathology jobs are fairly stable.
I would have 4 years ADSO after residency, which for pathology doesn't sound like I would be deployed 12 times and working as a GMO...
I suppose this could all change by the time I myself have graduated and finished residency, and as I have posted in other forums, I am still considering the impact HPSP will have on my family (married, no kids, but worrying about the elderly parents who may need me around in 8 years)...
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
I'm wondering if these Army Pathology experiences I've read on SDN are still applicable, since it's been about 5 years?
Many seem to hate the HPSP, but they weren't pathologists.
HPSP sounds doable for someone interested in Pathology. The residencies sound great. Sounds like Army pathology jobs are fairly stable.
I would have 4 years ADSO after residency, which for pathology doesn't sound like I would be deployed 12 times and working as a GMO...
I suppose this could all change by the time I myself have graduated and finished residency, and as I have posted in other forums, I am still considering the impact HPSP will have on my family (married, no kids, but worrying about the elderly parents who may need me around in 8 years)...
Thanks for taking the time to read this.
